A Few Notes - Open Thread
There is a buzz of 9/11 discussion going on right now in response to the Moussaoui trial, and Kristen Breitweiser's appearances on the Today Show and Hardball - it's good to see some people actually talking about 9/11. It may be worth the time to use google's blog search to find some of the ongoing discussions and chime in. If you come across any blogs making interesting commentary on these new 9/11 related items feel free to post them in the comments.
Also, we received a very generous donation tonight from a friend, we will be sure to put it to good use soon - details to come.
I'll be out of town for the weekend, but we will still be updating, so if you've got something new - including upcoming events - send it in.
Open thread, have at it.
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"Most likely a series of
"Most likely a series of incendiaries & explosives where detonated. You know, they "pulled-it" real good."
'Most likely' won't get you a new investigation.
For someone who still
For someone who still doesn't fully get it about 9/11, I like the way Kristen Breitweiser's mind works.
______________________________________
OT: Avery says "final cut
OT:
Avery says "final cut needs to be 100% provable"...
Looks like 90%ish needs to go then.
that's why i am trying to
that's why i am trying to get this 911Facts.net stuff together for a fact-based video package...
suggestions welcome 911HijackerDotCom@gmail.com
"We're 23, of course we
"We're 23, of course we drink" - rowe
I'm 23 and I don't drink.
It's against my lack of religion.
"controlled demolition is
"controlled demolition is the bottom line" - rowe
Who agrees with this?
baked beans are
baked beans are off...
well
can I have spam instead?
"controlled demolition is
"controlled demolition is the bottom line" - rowe
I aggree with that
"controlled demolition is
"controlled demolition is the bottom line" - rowe
A bit difficult to prove since the evidence was INTENTIONALLY destroyed despite many objections being raised (no thanks to the mainstream media).
However, it is where most Americans died that day. Use footage from 911 Eyewitness!
Ditto.
Ditto.
Far from the bottom line,
Far from the bottom line, but very suspicious in context.
Bottom line is Loose Change does a great job at getting someone interesting in knowing more (like a starship trooper. remember?)
But the final cut better be an extreme makeover.
"controlled demolition is
"controlled demolition is the bottom line" - rowe
I would disagree with that, strongly. Of course, there is a fair amount of evidence pointing towards the possibility that a demolotion scenario occurred, it's just not the strongest argument we have. In my opinion.
I believe that, by far, the most muscular and credible argument we can make for a new investigation of 9/11 is the lack of any decisive official response.
How can dozens of years of protocol be so suddenly, and consistently, forgotten on one day? Why was no one disciplined for their gross negligence? NORAD, the FAA, and the defense systems of our nation's Capital, completely useless on 9/11. Why? And why was no one punished? Why, even after the 9/11 Commission's report and demands for fixes do we STILL have a system capable of the same catastrophically systemic failures?
How could every system put into place, a system that had seen many similar precedents (in terms of off-course commercial flights being intercepted) fail on every level? There is no way this could happen without some high-level intervention to emasculate and prevent a reaction. Indeed, Cheney and pals knew about 9/11. I have no doubt left at this point.
What isn't as clear, and I think Jim Hoffman makes some good points about this, is what really happened in every other area of that day.
I think that it would be a mistake to put the harder-to-prove stuff on the end of the spear, when we have a sharpened and polished blade in the stuff that's already part of the public record.
In particular, I think we need more scientific research and some more PhD's who are willing to let it ride before we can approach the podium with the other arguments. Not that they aren't credible at face value (well, some of them aren't), but we need more proof before they can be considered viable in the court of law.
My $.02
S.
"POSSIBILITY"???????? a
"POSSIBILITY"???????? a controlled demolition occurred?
Please- come on now.
Please- come on now.
not the bottom line was the
not the bottom line was the point. well put s.
Heres some of why
Heres some of why understanding the reason for controlled demolition is important and why "they" did it. They could have struck the towers with planes and did whatever happened at the Pentagon and left it at that. This would certainly be reason enough for the Neocons to proclaim this attack an act of war. This however wouldnt be the obvious inside job they desired to intimidate everyone here at home and abroad. You fly planes into your own landmarks full of your own citizens and then blow them up into dust lets EVERYONE (with a brain) know there is no turning back and you are one desperate, cut-throat mofo not to be taken lighty. Without the controlled demolition, Pentagon fraud, etc someone might actually think this was an outside attack and that you are actually weak. "They" wanted the opposite for intimidation reasons. If you dont know the reasons I dont have the time tonite. Good Nite.
The case for CD is very
The case for CD is very strong but not concrete. No pun intended.
http://www.unitedslavesofamerica.org/fallujah.mpeg
here's a clip from iraq for you. I have more on a flash drive you all might find interesting.
Jaybird, Unfortunately, we
Jaybird,
Unfortunately, we cannot go to an investigative entity with - "Hey man, look at all this stuff! The way I see it, this is what happened!".
From a psychological standpoint, you're already on the defensive with that kind of approach. To lift a quote from Joshua Holland (citizen) -
"The difference between someone with a healthy dose of skepticism and a conspiracy theorist is this: the former looks at the official version of events and when it doesn't add up, she [or he] says: "Hey, that doesn't add up." The latter looks at those same events and says: "Hey, that doesn't add up, but I'll tell you what really happened."
Simply put, as of right now, we still have an evidence gap that needs to be filled. When it comes to the demolition (WTC) and missile (Pentagon) type scenarios, this is our reality. Of course, many wonderful people are hard at work researching and analyzing what few facts are accessible to us, and presenting that information in a number of ways. So, hopefully, enough will be uncovered to where our status will improve in this "official evidence pool" area.
An unfortunately large number of people in the 9/11 Truth movement, please forgive the metaphor, act like dogs who live to chase cars. They're really energetic and dynamic when it comes to the pursuit, but once caught, their prey is still mysteriously elusive to them. The car then drives away...
Point is, we need to be able to present to our case to the courts. We need to be able to defend our position, and stay firm in our resolve, even in the face of expert testimony to the contrary.
They will attempt to discredit everyone involved. We MUST stay focused. Otherwise, even with a massive onslaught of screeching conspiracy-theorist hordes we'll get absolutely nowhere. Sadly, it's just the truth.
Since we cannot change the mechanics of how bureaucracy works (don't listen to people who claim otherwise), we must work within the machinery to defeat our enemy. It is possible, but we must not fracture or falter when showtime arrives. In my view, that means focusing on facts, not relying on theories.
S.
People tend to think of
People tend to think of things using the most familiar labels, using the most convenient terms...
But "controlled demolition" is like "missiles" in the sense that it's a bit vague and so ambiguous -- it means very different things to different people.
Is it really that important to assign a label, such as "controlled demolition", even after we've proven that we cannot blame the "collapses" on "airplanes"? If so, maybe someone should hold a contest, or at least an open (incl write-ins) poll, to determine the best label. ("Willful razing"? "Collapse On Command"?)
The reason I don't like the label "controlled demolition" is that it's too good of a term for a limited hangout. It seriously understates what occurred: No other "controlled demolition" in history (sound familiar?) has ever caused all the building's concrete and glass (and other solid materials) to be 'instantly' converted to a massive quantity of an impossibly fine powdery ultra-dust, nor resulted in huge pyroclastic debris clouds, nor left behind molten metal weeks and weeks later, nor caused fires which could not be put out, despite constant dousing with water, for 99 days!
But, as a label, "controlled demolition" has "conventional" written all over it. (And the common theme to the way the 911 truth movement is being misled is to keep all thoughts of highly unconventional explanations for what happened on 9/11 from ever entering people's minds.)
So I think the label should somehow convey the quite extraordinary nature of the destruction. No gravity-driven collapse, even assisted by "expolsives" (which also implies conventional/chemical to many people), could account for the highly unusual disintegration and huge heat signature left behind. IOW, the destruction/demolition of the WTC buildings goes far beyond what occurred from any (other) "collapse". (Video evidence of the timing of the occurence of the pyroclastic flow indicates that there was a huge unexplained heat release right around the time that the S. Tower "collapse" wave reached the ground, strongly suggesting that there was a separate, unconventional, event.)
I also wish people would quit using the word "pulverization", since no known 'pulverization' mechanism could have converted so much concrete+ to so much ultra-fine ultra-dust (0.25 microns and less!) in so little time. I prefer "molecular dissociation" or "disintegration" to "pulverization", which is misleading, inaccurate, and understates the evidence in a "Nothing terribly unconventional to see here, Citizen. Move along." kind of way.
______________________________________
after looking at the really
after looking at the really fast screens at the beginning of that video, i decided to take it down.
i'll slice it later.
if we are able to establish elements of guilt, it will possibly open up avenues to address other issues that were once impossible to do, and give some people with similar stances like yours the courage to speak up, and ideally with a structural engineering phd of 20 years or so.
Jones' paper is now at draft
Jones' paper is now at draft version 6.0
His recent additions include pictures of metal "dripping" from the Towers.
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
DHS, "if we are able to
DHS,
"if we are able to establish elements of guilt, it will possibly open up avenues to address other issues that were once impossible to do, and give some people with similar stances like yours the courage to speak up, and ideally with a structural engineering phd of 20 years or so."
Precisely. We have to use the conventional bureaucratic mechanism to open things up. Like an otter uses a rock to open a clam.
S.
You are mistaken. Even
You are mistaken.
Even THOUGH the strongest evidence of the conspiracy is the cover-up... it still involves humans.
In the modern USA universe, everything under the sun can be attributed to humans.
"Only in America"
Hence the attraction of ICE COLD PHYSICAL ARGUMENTS.
Face it. The USA is not normal. It is AS A WHOLE a complete and utter psychopath. and this is intended.
If I remember correctly (Chomsky help me out!) its called the SAMSON COMPLEX
its about being irrational to scare your enemies, however rational THEY are. Like the US or Israel committing atrocities with nukes, totally out of proportion... just to make the adversaries fear the irrational behaviour...
To repeat: Its PHYSICAL EVIDENCE is most important.
But even that can be oversome by the US loonies, just think of
DARWIN
ABORTION
DEATH PENALTY
E.U.
SOCIALISM
TREE HUGGERS
STEMCELLS
all these topic have been INTENTIONALLY brainwashed into a state where people cannot think rationally.
Liberals vs Conservatives..
my god.
US liberals are idiot-conservatives and US conservatives have redeeming features... but both are UTTER UTTER bastards.
If 40,000 or so workers got
If 40,000 or so workers got 9/11 syndrome from their cleanup efforts that's a shame.
That's 10 9/11's
The report notes that the agency's official position was that the levels of asbestos in outdoor air were safe for healthy adults, but that it lacked evidence about the potential health effects of indoor air and the risks of other contaminants or the effects on more vulnerable New Yorkers, including children and the elderly.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/09/national/main567489.shtml
"You are mistaken. Even
"You are mistaken.
Even THOUGH the strongest evidence of the conspiracy is the cover-up... it still involves humans.
In the modern USA universe, everything under the sun can be attributed to humans.
"Only in America"
Hence the attraction of ICE COLD PHYSICAL ARGUMENTS."
Sorry, but I don't really understand what you're getting at here. I wasn't aware that I had implicated beings other than humans in my posts. Care to enlighten us?
S.
Controlled demolition
Controlled demolition evidence is strong but be careful. It is possible, perhaps, though you and I might not be easily fooled, for an argument to be constructed that it was part of the plot of the infamous 19... that they had help on the ground.
I tend to agree that the issue of the war games, or the "stand down", and the overall lack of coherent response, the AWOL command, etc is a good bottom line. But we may never be able to get much absolute proof there either, due to "national security concerns".
For me, the issue is this: Drive an "indictment", or public clamor for full, formal, forensic and criminal investigation. I think this can be sold on the surface with one simple fact supported by lots of corrolary facts. The simple fact is that the US government has done everything in its power not to let anyone see -- to forestall or quash investigations, to fail to investigate, to destroy evidence, and more.
I also agree that "physical" evidence seems critical in terms of "proof", but we aren't even near a courthouse yet. With subpoena power, you can crack open a lot of places where "evidence" may be hiding... not so much the physical evidence but testimony, conflicting testimony, records, computer records, paper trails, etc.
An artful prosecutor could have a field day with what is already known. We just need to get the American people to demand and empower a prosecutor.
Ruppert said he could make a case.
Singh sits in the wings. Edmonds' information may be explosive. There are many, many others who will "squawk" if faced with a subpoena and potential penalties as co-conspirators.
In the People's Commission hearings, someone read off a list that ran minutes in length of the crimes (many of them relatively minor) which had been committed that day. An artful prosecutor can use the smaller crimes to uncover the biggies.
From the movie "Absence of Malice":
Wilford Brimley, as the Asst. US Atty Gen'l: "Tell you what we're gonna do. We're gonna sit right here and talk about it. Now, if you get tired of talking, the US Marshal over there will hand you one of them subpoenas he's got stuck in his pocket and we'll go downstairs and talk in front of a grand jury."
Mssr. Jouet, Very nice post.
Mssr. Jouet,
Very nice post. You bring up a lot of thoughtful points. Honestly, I think we're in pretty bad shape as far as getting an official inquiry started. I mean, they refused even to investigate Katrina fully. You just KNOW that the march is on in Neocon circles to destroy as much evidence as possible relating to anything that might come back to haunt them. We learned that with Oliver North.
What keeps me up at night, is the fact that this administration doesn't seem to be preparing for a changing of the guard in 2008. It appears to me as though they think they're going to be in power forever. Terrifying.
S.
It truly saddens me that
It truly saddens me that people sitll insist a missle hit the pentagon. I'm not going to equate this with Holocaust denial, but LIKe the holocaust, there's so much overwhelming proof you'd have to close your eyes to pretend otherwise. "WHAT" Pentagon anomalies? I've seen so many pictures of plane wreckage, and things..well you dont want to see thats been released. Point is, the Pentagon theory right now has to be one of the most damaging thorns in the 9/11 Truth movement. Because what, you think you see a slim white plane in frame 1 form the march 2002 Pentagon footage? The people who in 2003 promoted the pod/flash theory got laughed out of town, and its really sad people hold onto the Pentagon theory like gospel. If I was the government, I wouldnt release the footage either. As ther Pentagon theorists are doing more than any cointelpro disinfo could.
And I agree, for Loose change to be 100% faction, it'd have to take out a bulk of the claims in there. I'm waiting for a Robert Greendwald or someone who can truly get the real scoop, interviews, etc to make a 9/11 Truth documentary that goes after the provable. Like Waco the Rules of Engagement did(Academy Awar winner, btw)
Personally I don't know what
Personally I don't know what to believe about the Pentagon, it just seems so improbable that a Boeing 757 caused that little entry hole and smashed through three more rings and left that perfect round exit hole.
But hey, anythings possible. If the tapes could only be released so people wouldn't have to think about that anymore.
And I think it was very good that they left the pod thing out of the 2nd edition, I'm not really a big fan of the missile theory, although when I first saw LC1 I was of course intrigued by it, but it was all so new to me then so I took in everything because it just felt sort of exciting.
But about the towers and building 7, I do not believe that fires and damage caused those collpases, no way.
Well anyways, I really like LC2, and I hope that LC3 will shoot down the official story for good and really wake people up.
"No gravity-driven collapse,
"No gravity-driven collapse, even assisted by "expolsives" (which also implies conventional/chemical to many people), could account for the highly unusual disintegration and huge heat signature left behind."
The problem is that no one has proven that conclusively.
"Controlled demolition" is the wrong term too. It should be "explosive demolition." The two terms have different meanings.
Wow... what a cheery set of
Wow... what a cheery set of comments...
Where's JG when it needs a bit of lightening up...
DHS... are you on anti-depressents ?
Cos after reading these comments I think I need some...
did everyone see this clip i
did everyone see this clip i posted last night in another thread?
http://www.mediumrecords.com/wtc/southtower.trinity.avi
you can find more info at
http://www.mediumrecords.com/
In my opinion, it is easily
In my opinion, it is easily provable that a 47-storey steel-framed skyscraper could only have collapsed to the ground at virtually the speed of free fall as a result of controlled demolition. There is no way this can be explained away, but lacking air responses etc. can always be explained away, although not plausibly.
I think I've already proved it here:
http://11syyskuu.blogspot.com/2006/02/destruction-of-wtc-7.html
I also think that these things need to be advanced on several fronts -- cf. Griffin's approach.
After Kristen B.'s comments,
After Kristen B.'s comments, are we sure she doesn't get it? Isn't she going to be in this new movie recently mentioned?
US conservatives have
US conservatives have redeeming features... but both are UTTER UTTER bastards.
u2r2h | 05.05.06 - 4:40 am | #
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. thats hilarious. what redeeming qualitys would that be? fully backing the fake war on terror and waving the bloody flag of 9/11 that they know to be a lie?fully backing syping on american citizens?fully backing the patriot act?fully backing torture?failing to hold a president who tramples the constitution accountable? are these the "redeeming" features you speak of? as that douchebag conservative puppet John Stossel says, give me a break.
i agree both are utter
i agree both are utter bastards, but at least "liberals" dont blindly support war,spying,increased presidential powers etc etc etc.this left/right shit needs to stop. ive been seeing an increase on this site lately.dont fall for it.
[deleted - off topic. If you
[deleted - off topic. If you want to discuss 9/11, please go set up your own blog and debate it to your hearts content. But NOT here.]
Edited By Siteowner
plunger | 05.04.06 - 7:05 pm | #
C&L strikes again. boycott C&L.
Pockybot, re: your Pentagon
Pockybot, re: your Pentagon comments above, I'm not sure one way or another what hit it. But why did they claim to have identified 99% of the passengers???
REPOST
Yet another boldfaced lie: All but a few of those passengers on AA77 have been identified by DNA.
How the hell did they obtain DNA samples from the people who slammed the Pentagon at 530 mph???
YouÂ’re telling me that the plane was reduced to unrecognizable fragments, but they could ID the passengers???
Any dubiously remaining DNA wasnÂ’t damaged, degraded, destroyed & obliterated, by the extremes such as the severe impact, explosion, & fire???
They were able to extract & separate DNA from whatever medium, (cement, metal, brick, etc.) from which it was supposedly withdrawn???
It wasnÂ’t totally commingled with everyone elseÂ’s DNA???
It wasnÂ’t ruined & washed away by the fire hoses & chemical foam sprayed all over it???
LetÂ’s face it folks, they didnÂ’t ID any passengers at the Pentagon!!!
The Fox News Effect By
The Fox News Effect
By Richard Morin
Thursday, May 4, 2006; A02
We report. You decide. Does President Bush owe his controversial win in 2000 to Fox cable television news?
Yes, suggest data collected by two economists who found that the growth of the Fox cable news network in the late 1990s may have significantly boosted the Republican Party's share of the vote in the 2000 election and delivered Florida to Bush.
"Our estimates imply that Fox News convinced 3 to 8 percent of its audience to shift its voting behavior towards the Republican Party, a sizable media persuasion effect," said Stefano DellaVigna of the University of California at Berkely and Ethan Kaplan of Stockholm University.
In Florida alone, they estimate, the Fox effect may have produced more than 10,000 additional votes for Bush -- clearly a decisive factor in a state he carried by fewer than 600 votes.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/03/AR200605...
"In my opinion, it is easily
"In my opinion, it is easily provable that a 47-storey steel-framed skyscraper could only have collapsed to the ground at virtually the speed of free fall as a result of controlled demolition."
Thanks. I looked at your site. One of the videos you link to shows the roof collapsing first way before the whole building comes down. We have to consider this part of the collapse sequence don't we and not just something that happened independent of the collapse?
When George W. Bush Had Alex
When George W. Bush Had Alex Jones Arrested For Asking A Question
McGovern should count himself lucky that the thought police didn't put him in cuffs and kidnap him
Paul Joseph Watson/Prison Planet.com | May 5 2006
The public spectacle of former CIA analyst Ray McGovern almost being hauled out of a Rumsfeld speech for the thought crime of asking a question reminds us of the good old 'pre-9/11 mentality' days when George W. Bush had Alex Jones arrested and kidnapped by Texas police for the same offence.
During a 1998 Bush rally and speech at DuPont Photomask Facility, Alex asks the following question.
"Sir, shouldn't we abolish the Federal Reserve and the CFR? That's the real reality that none of you will talk about and most of you are members. That's what's destroying this country governor. Don't you stand for America sir? What about the Federal Reserve and the CFR?"
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/may2006/050506askingquestion.htm
Alex is then grabbed by
Alex is then grabbed by Texas police, taken outside and handcuffed. The cameraman is threatened as he films the entire incident. Afterwards, Alex was kidnapped and driven around for half an hour before being thrown out on the side of the road. All for the crime of asking a question!
HAHAHAHA, i didnt know cops did that, just threw you on the side of a road.Alex Jones is the fucking man.especially when he confronted Madaline Albrieght(sp?).classic shit.
I agree with Vesa. They can
I agree with Vesa. They can always blame secret Cheney's war games or make some other excuses for their lack of response.
Even Silverstein didn't know exactly what to say when confronted about physical evidence. He ended up saying that he & the Fire Dept "pulled-it."
Republicans Continue to
Republicans Continue to Defend Torture
US Attorney General Alberto Gonzales defended torture, yet again
Daily Telegraph | May 5 2006
“I think that the United States has suffered a bit because of the fact that when the war began we were facing such a new and dire threat from Al Qaeda, not knowing whether or not there would be a second wave that the United States took some very aggressive measures,” Mr Gonzales said.
“We did not for a period of time get out and explain to our friends and allies and even perhaps to the people in the United States what we were doing and why we did it because of the nature of the threat” and the fear of leaking information, he added.
Mr Gonzales, in Vienna for meetings with European Union ministers, told a small group of reporters that US officials “can do a better job (communicating) and that’s why I welcome the opportunity to come and talk with you today.”
We know the official US policy on torture, both foreign and domestic:
Have you guys and gals taken
Have you guys and gals taken a moment to consider this, an alternative explanation of the Pentagon story?
So far, I find it to be the most plausible, even though it would have required the most preparation.
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pentagontrap.html
Moussaoui verdict deals blow
Moussaoui verdict deals blow to coverup.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/may2006/mous-m05.shtml
Hoffman huh?
Hoffman huh?
Er, ah not even Hoffman
Er, ah not even Hoffman mentions how AA77 passengers were ID'ed. Hmmmm...
Isn't it a little strange
Isn't it a little strange that even though Moussaoui was arrested in August, Atta and his clan still decided to go through with their plans? How did they know that he hadn't spilled the beans, especially when you cosider the fact that they didn't particularly know him that well, or indeed, like him that much? And if they didn't know him all too well, why would they tell him of their plans in the first place?
I know that it's all speculation, and they may have been something that I've missed, but doesn't this lead people to question the chain of events, ? Have there been any articles in the MSM clearing this up?
Anonymous, How would he
Anonymous,
How would he know, its not like he was there right?
why so much contempt for someone who has provided such a great resource?
No contempt for Hoffman.
No contempt for Hoffman. Maybe he's just wrong though. I'm wondering why a thorough guy like him, who covered everything else, omitted the obvious DNA ID b.s.???
Hey guys... I've recently
Hey guys... I've recently "discovered" what I think is the best way to approach someone regarding 9/11.
Firstly, make sure you point out that we have been lied to about EVERYTHING else from this Administration. Why ON EARTH should we believe what they have to say about 9/11?!?
Secondly...
I like to point out the following:
There is an abundant amount of information regarding this Administration's intentions for Iraq, hegemony, and so on before 9/11.
As we all know, the Afghanistan War, the Iraq War, etc... would NOT have been possible had it not been for 9/11.
For that reason, and that reason alone, the Bush Administration is a suspect for the crimes of 9/11.
Here we have a group of people that wanted war. They couldn't have that war without something like 9/11 taking place. 9/11 did take place, and they used it to start their wars.
That shows they should be looked at regarding 9/11. At that point, the facts speak for themselves.
" Hey guys... I've recently
" Hey guys... I've recently "discovered" what I think is the best way to approach someone regarding 9/11."
I don't think any of that would really work. It's like when everyone accused Arabs of pulling off Oklahoma City because everyone believed Arabs had the motive. Then it was proved Arabs had nothing to do with it.
Jon, there is a great 3-part
Jon, there is a great 3-part British video called, "The Power of Nightmares" (that you may have seen) which leads into your above post very nicely.
Looks like I hit upon a very
Looks like I hit upon a very touchy subject re: Hoffman avoiding any mention of the obviously phony AA77 DNA results. Makes me wonder even more.
Anonymous, maybe you should
Anonymous,
maybe you should email him and ask if he would consider adding some research and commentary on the subject of the DNA results?
Now, that is a good
Now, that is a good suggestion. Thanks.
Hugo Chavez's visit to
Hugo Chavez's visit to London:
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/gla/story/0,,1767992,00.html
I've been trying to encourage Michael Meacher MP to get himself along to the meeting and see if he has a chance to have a word with El Presidente.
Micheal Meacher's relegated to the backbenches at the moment, but there's a good chance that he'll be back in the cabinet as soon as Blair leaves, which could be quite soon.
Feel free to give him a gentle nudge:
massonm@parliament.uk (office address)
What keeps me up at night,
What keeps me up at night, is the fact that this administration doesn't seem to be preparing for a changing of the guard in 2008. It appears to me as though they think they're going to be in power forever. Terrifying.
S.
Stuart Provine
In Stephen Colbert' s interview with William Kristol. Kristol says, " I think the Democrats will take the House this fall. Then they will have all kinds of hearings and investigations that will upset the american people and then we will take the presidency in 2008." (quoted from memory)
Now why would the american's express their anger at these investigations by reelecting the party (that currently has only 30% support) that is being investigated?
I believe it is because it will be at a time of war,possibly another 911, and they hope the americans will be so frightened that they will seek the comfort of a strong ruler, and the law and order party.
We can never forget that the gaping wound created by exposing 911 could very easily be used an opportunity to provide a quick band-aid and doses of patriotic pain killers, rather than the open air and antibiotic treatment which we all want and is necassary for any true healing. It will hurt, and make us temporarily feel weak and even helpless. Especially given the slow burecratic process of congressional investigations.
Our culture is addicted to quick fixes which offer superficial relief from existential and emotional suffering.
PS. Great Posts Stuart...keep them coming.
What are you guys smoking?
What are you guys smoking? Maybe if the party was run by Kucinich which is not likely..
Just look what happened to Kerry, he end up to be such a chickenshit not even able publicly admit the election 2004 was fraud..
"Jon, there is a great
"Jon, there is a great 3-part British video called, "The Power of Nightmares" (that you may have seen) which leads into your above post very nicely."
Saw it a long time ago. The best footage in that movie, to me, was Rumsfeld making the argument for Russia's massive WMD program that didn't exist. Back in the 70's.
"I don't think any of that
"I don't think any of that would really work. It's like when everyone accused Arabs of pulling off Oklahoma City because everyone believed Arabs had the motive. Then it was proved Arabs had nothing to do with it."
It just worked for me with someone who has been skeptical of what I've had to say. He just admitted to me that he is a suspect.
"Then it was proved Arabs
"Then it was proved Arabs had nothing to do with it."
The difference being, I can prove they had something to do with it. There are things that took place that day that couldn't have without their direct involvement.
Here we have a group of
Here we have a group of people that wanted war. They couldn't have that war without something like 9/11 taking place. 9/11 did take place, and they used it to start their wars.
That shows they should be looked at regarding 9/11. At that point, the facts speak for themselves.
Jon Gold
I wish the facts did speak for themselves "at that point'. but unfortunately they don't, at least in my experience. Just look at antiwar.com, and all of the other antiwar groups libertarian, liberal or 'true' conservatives.
They all accept the fact that they used 911 to implement their existing plans, but most refuse to even consider that they actually were involved in orchestrating 911.
There's a huge gap/block there, and the reason is that using 911 for their own geo-political gain is still within the accepted political framework. Its distgusting and nasty but anyone involved in political activism knows that real politics is often nasty and distgusting, thats no shock. Even allowing it to happen LIHOP, can be explained by some as misguided but shrewd and even patriotic manuever, to wake up the american people to the dangers of terrorism and allow them the tools to protect us from a future potentially more horrific attack using nukes or biological weapons.
I find all of these arguments Bullshit, of course. But they are used to avoid the harsher reality to which 911 points, including, more importantly, the unaccountable powers which made this happen.
"They all accept the fact
"They all accept the fact that they used 911 to implement their existing plans, but most refuse to even consider that they actually were involved in orchestrating 911."
They accept that they used it, but they don't admit that they are suspect. They're reasoning for that... I have no idea.
Fear? Ignorance? I just don't know.
Did anyone notice that in
Did anyone notice that in the latest Zarqawi videos (the New Balance outtakes), he's quite a bit fatter than the appears in all previous pictures. Just like the "Osama" who confessed was noticibly plumper than the famous cave dweller. What's up with that? Are these guys supposed to be gaining weight while they are on the run?
I believe Zarqawi is dead.
I believe Zarqawi is dead. Just as I believe Osama is dead, and Khalid Sheikh Mohammad.
I have absolutely no
I have absolutely no evidence that KSM is dead.
However...
I have an abundant amount of information that shows how the Government is doing EVERYTHING within their power to keep him out of the public.
If you orchestrated the attacks, and blamed it on someone else, would you let that someone else stay alive?
who are the organizers of
who are the organizers of the massive street demonstrations for 9/11 truth this coming sept. 11?
we need to take to the streets like the immigration rights people did this spring.
are there sites, organizers, whatever working on this?
I have been trying to
I have been trying to convince a friend who deals with the FBI and Homeland security for business reasons to look into 9/11. He mocked the idea, until I mentioned that Marvin Bush was connected with the companies handling security for the airports and WTC. So you never know what the "hot button" might be for someone. Then I hit him with WTC7, since he has witnessed controlled demolitions himself. He is definitely not mocking anymore!
There should be hundreds of
There should be hundreds of thousands of people at Ground Zero every weekend already. This is madness. There are millions of people in NY who wouldnt have to catch planes or travel across the country to stand up for what happened to their city on 911. If I am going to demonstrate Ill be the lone freak standing outside Walmart with a sign. There are already people out there at Ground Zero where people wouldnt even have to be alone demonstrateing at the scene of the crime. Look at all the available books, films, websites, media breakthroughs (Griffin CSPAN, Jones, Loose Change, Sheen, Hustler, Maxim, New Yorker, all the ads on tv/print Walter ran, etc, etc). 911 has been used to rape our country and the world and our future. People refuse to step out of the illussion. Even people how know seem to take some "adult attitude" like we just have to move on. This is something that doesnt allow me to feel free and brave while I watch baseball. I know Im not helping things with this post but it seems were always one doccumentary, professor, or celebrity away from reclaiming our future. Im not saying give up but man I just dont know what it takes to get people to care anymore. Go ahead clobber me.
Yes every so often I have to
Yes every so often I have to post something like this because absolutely noone else will listen to me.
Well a few people will
Well a few people will listen but they care about me and just want me to move on and forget about it.
Good stuff, Jaybird! I hear
Good stuff, Jaybird! I hear you.
"DHS... are you on
"DHS... are you on anti-depressents ?
Cos after reading these comments I think I need some..."
a007 | 05.05.06 - 8:07 am | #
I'm definitely not, unless my brain produces it on its own.
I'm glad to see a solid debate in this thread...
Dear Mr. Gold: To contact
Dear Mr. Gold:
To contact Secretary Mineta, please write, phone or FAX:
Regular mail:
The Honorable Norman Y. Mineta
Department of Transportation
400 Seventh Street, SW
Washington, DC 20590
Telephone: 202-366-1111
FAX: 202-366-7202
Sincerely,
Reference Services
National Transportation Library
Bureau of Transportation Statistics
Research and Innovative Technology Administration
U.S. Department of Transportation
Does anybody have a link to
Does anybody have a link to the Ray McGovern/Rumsfeld confrontation?
Rummy and McGovern
Rummy and McGovern video
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/CNN-Rumsfeld-McGovern-Question.wmv
http://www.prisonplanet.com/a
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/may2006/050506askingquestion.htm
This is the link to McGovern pegging Rumsfeld and almost getting forceably removed.
Al, the creators of Loose
Al,
the creators of Loose Change are pushing hard for a massive rally at ground zero this 9/11.. they are apparently about to launch a site all about organizing for the event.. they are estimating at least 1000 people this year, i think it will be more.
i will be there for sure.
This is something that
This is something that doesnt allow me to feel free and brave while I watch baseball.
Well put Jaybird!
There are two powerful forces in which motivate a large portion of american's : 1. Religion: i.e a moral understanding of our society and role within it. 2. The Rebel....who stands strong against adversity and the status quoe. ( a valuable legacy of our revolutionary beginings).
Both of these have been cleverly hijacked and manipulated by the elite (through years of think tank studies and well paid PR companies) to make them assests of the immoral and status quoe system which support them, instead of potential threats.
We can change this by pointing out the hollowness of their morality and the absurdity of claiming they are rebels in this system.
"Jesus was murdered for resisting an empire"
and
"Real Men Fight Fascism."
are two very creative and honest approaches to working and transforming these uniquely american qualities towards a truly courageous and rebellious movement to expose the Truth and demand Justice!
The Psychology of Patriotic
The Psychology of Patriotic Denial
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/POPD.html
The Role of Abuse and its Enablers in 9/11
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/
New Essay: If Its Broken,
New Essay:
If Its Broken, Why Haven't They Fixed It?
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2006/05/if-its-broken-why-havent-th...
9/11 Suspect Porter Goss
9/11 Suspect Porter Goss Resigns As Director Of CIA
i'm not sure if it was
i'm not sure if it was posted here or not but does anyboady have a link to the article that talks about GW Bushs image makeover from a "rich Yalie kid" to a more dumbed down "good ole boy" texan after he lost his very first election to Kent Hance in the 70's?
Hey guys, you realy believe
Hey guys, you realy believe that 911truthers will be allowed on the 9/11 anniversary at ground zero? After all that gestapo style activity during Republican convention in NY city etc? You are naive..
Radical Pragmatist: I
Radical Pragmatist:
I totally agree with your analysis about religion and rebels.
That is why I think showing why Christianity compels 9/11 truth and justice is so important. See e.g. http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2006/04/do-justice.html
"i'm not sure if it was
"i'm not sure if it was posted here or not but does anyboady have a link to the article that talks about GW Bushs image makeover from a "rich Yalie kid" to a more dumbed down "good ole boy" texan after he lost his very first election to Kent Hance in the 70's?"
You can start here: http://partners.nytimes.com/library/politics/camp/072700wh-bush-lubbock....
GW... good article... my
GW... good article... my take...
A Stacked Deck
In what way was Porter Goss
In what way was Porter Goss a 9/11 suspect?
thanks for the link GW but i
thanks for the link GW but i was specifically looking for a scanned article that explained how Bush is actually, dare I say, smart and how he had his image made-over after that loss to Nance.
In what way was Porter Goss
In what way was Porter Goss a 9/11 suspect?
frank rega | Homepage | 05.05.06 - 2:32 pm | #
If I remember correctly, he met with Mohammed Atta paymaster Mahmoud Ahmad on 9/11.
The rumors are that Goss is tied to a hooker scandal.
Good one, Jon. Boast, I was
Good one, Jon.
Boast, I was looking for that also when I wrote http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2006/03/incompetence.html
I had a hard time also.
If you find it, could you be so kind as to post it at http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2006/03/incompetence.html, so I can add it?
Tono, I was at ground zero
Tono,
I was at ground zero last 9/11 along with a few dozen other 'truthers'.. i would guess a few hundred dvds were handed out.. it is a public site, we will be there.
All, I don't know if I'm
All, I don't know if I'm free to discuss details, but there will also be a big 9/11 event in a building in NYC not at ground zero.
So there will be lots happening on the 11th.
GW - will do.
GW - will do.
I lost track of the thread
I lost track of the thread that linked to the "Loose Change 2E" critique, but I understand that there are plenty of people in the Truth movement that find flaws in it, too.
I'm planning to organize a debate or discusssion here in my area, and will probably show LC2E, but before I do, I want to be prepared to discuss the weak points in the film.
Can y'all--Truthers and debunkers alike--tell me what the flaws are in the film, and maybe give me your take on what should have been said instead?
A new link to the PDF critique would be appreciated, too.
" In what way was Porter
" In what way was Porter Goss a 9/11 suspect?
frank rega | Homepage | 05.05.06 - 2:32 pm | # "
he ate breakfast with the head of pakistani isi on the morning of 9/11. THe head of pakistani ISI wire transferred 100,000 to muahmmad ata 2 weeks befor 9.11. I would say he should have been questioned about his involvement.
1000 people? We need 100,000
1000 people?
We need 100,000 people
The Daily Show clip
The Daily Show clip featuring Porter Goss, Bush and supposed hunt for Osama:
http://www.overspun.com/video/DailyShow.Goss.BinLaden.wmv :P
Porter Goss... Flew to
Porter Goss...
Flew to Pakistan 2 weeks before 9/11 with Tenet and Graham.
Had breakfast on the morning of 9/11 with Lt. Gen. Mahmoud Ahmad in Washington D.C. with Bob Graham and John Kyl.
Both Goss and Graham were in charge of the Congressional Inquiry into 9/11.
A 9/11 suspect resigned today.
timbermonkey, here are my
timbermonkey,
here are my problems with the the movie
-too much focus on the plane not hitting the pentagon. There is no physical evidence to back up the claims that a plane did not hit the pentagon, and if there is it has been carted away by the government and will most likely never be availible for examination. Many witnesses, including one person who i have met personally saw a plane fly into the pentagon. They arent a plane expert, but they vouch for the fact that it was indeed some form of plane and not a missle.
There is so much other incriminating and provable evidence that this does not need to even be addressed.
-We dont know what happened on Flight 93, and in Loose Change they speculate on what they think happened (secret landing, fake debris field, voice morphing, etc), which in reality imo is just as bad or even worse than people saying Mark Bigham did the lets roll manueaver. Either story is pure speculation.
-Controlled demolition is definitly something im willing to consider, but the strongest points of the film are over shadowed by the amount of time they focus on controlled demoliton. Like Mike Ruppert has said, we already have enough evidence to convict people in a court of law. We cant use evidence of controlled demoliton because most of the evidence has already been destroyed. It would be fun to think about doing this, but the fact remains that is unprovable and still speculation. We can pretend we can prove it, but unfortunately we cant without phyisical evidence.
-Too much influence from 911 in plane site, instead they should be drawing from people like Webster Tarpley. the makers of Loose change claim they dont put speculative things in their movie because other people have already done that (alex jones, painful truths, etc) but they are doing exactly that, putting out highly speculative observations, and presenting it along side of very factually provable inaccuracies in the official story.
there is a lot of meat and potatos in Loose change 2. But to quote alex jones.. "its like a turd in the punchbowl" . Great tasting punch, but would you want to drink it if someone took a shit in it? probably not.
DHS, a thousand people in
DHS,
a thousand people in that small of an area near ground zero would be quite massive in person.. i too hope we hit higher numbers though, i'm tired of playing around.. if you dont have the money to get there then stop wasting time and get to mowing yards and collecting cans ;)
hey youre dhs---youre one of
hey youre dhs---youre one of those guys that made loose change!!
wow
VIDEO: Zahn Interviews
VIDEO: Zahn Interviews McGovern, Defends Rumsfeld:
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/05/05/zahn-mcgovern/
http://thankyouraymcgovern.org/
Robbie-- Thanks for your
Robbie--
Thanks for your input.
I've read Ruppert's "Crossing the Rubicon," but I'm not sure what he considers to be the bulletproof evidence of conspiracy. A case of negligent homicide could probably be defeated by a defense of incompetence.
And to me, there is physical evidence to dispute the official story regarding the Pentagon, but that's a debate for another time....
I would probably focus on a critique of the official story in my own presentation, and avoid the speculations about what happened to the passengers, etc. since that seems to be where LC2E and others get into trouble. Right now it's enough to prove the official story wrong; later we can try to piece together what DID happen.
August 28-30, 2001: US
August 28-30, 2001: US Politicians Visit Pakistan and Discuss bin Laden
Senator Bob Graham (D), Representative Porter Goss (R), and Senator Jon Kyl (R) travel to Pakistan and meet with President Pervez Musharraf. They reportedly discuss various security issues, including the possible extradition of bin Laden. They also meet with Abdul Salam Zaeef, the Taliban ambassador to Pakistan. Zaeef apparently tells them that the Taliban wants to solve the issue of bin Laden through negotiations with the US. Pakistan says it wants to stay out of the bin Laden issue. [Agence France-Presse, 9/28/2001; Salon, 10/14/2001]
September 11, 2001: Intelligence Committee Chairs Meet with ISI Head and Possible 9/11 Attack Funder as the Attack Occurs
At the time of the attacks, ISI Director Lt. Gen. Mahmood Ahmed is at a breakfast meeting at the Capitol with the chairmen of the House and Senate Intelligence Committees, Senator Bob Graham (D) and Representative Porter Goss (R) (Goss is a 10-year veteran of the CIA’s clandestine operations wing). The meeting is said to last at least until the second plane hits the WTC. [Washington Post, 6/18/2002] Graham and Goss later co-head the joint House-Senate investigation into the 9/11 attacks, which has made headlines for saying there was no “smoking gun” of Bush knowledge before 9/11. [Washington Post, 8/11/2002] Note that Senator Graham should have been aware of a report made to his staff the previous month (see Early August 2001) that one of Mahmood’s subordinates had told a US undercover agent that the WTC would be destroyed. Evidence suggests that attendee Mahmood ordered that $100,000 be sent to hijacker Mohamed Atta. Also present at the meeting were Senator Jon Kyl (R) and the Pakistani ambassador to the US, Maleeha Lodhi. (All or virtually all of the people in this meeting had previously met in Pakistan just a few weeks earlier.) Senator Graham says of the meeting: “We were talking about terrorism, specifically terrorism generated from Afghanistan.” The New York Times reports that bin Laden was specifically discussed. [New York Times, 7/3/2002; Salon, 10/14/2001; Vero Beach Press Journal, 10/12/2001]
Ruppert's
Ruppert's avoidance/downplaying of the plentiful smoking-gun 911 evidence has always rubbed me the wrong way.
Ruppert's positive contributions are still welcome, though. Like everyone's contributions, they need to be filtered, questioned, and any/all omissions/distortions noted.
______________________________________
Right now it's enough to
Right now it's enough to prove the official story wrong; later we can try to piece together what DID happen.
timbermonkey
I agree timber monkey!
But we should add, that the official story is not only wrong, but ridiculous based on all of the available facts. Its almost humorous in a black comedy sort of way.(as I've discussed in previous posts).
Look at the reaction to Colbert and the Daily Show.....if we could only get them to cover aspects of 911. When horrible truths, realities, and hypocrisy become this obvious, comedy is some time the only way people will look at it.
Read some Mark Twain: its the american way!
Updated
Updated
>>In what way was Porter
>>In what way was Porter Goss a 9/11 suspect?
Porter Goss has been in the loop for decades, young Mr. Goss is on the Mexican bar photo from 1963 with Barry Seal famous drugs smugler for the CIA during Iran-contra, E.H. Hunt (Watergate), Felix Rodriquez (commander of the hunt for Che Guevarra, shootdown of Cuban airliner among other operations) and other kuban exiles/cia people from Operation 40 directed by GHWBush. This photo is just a few month before JFK assassination. The photo is on the cover of the book Barry and the boys..
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0970659105/104-2197674-3163167?v=glance...
John Pilger detects the
John Pilger detects the Salvador Option
http://www.newstatesman.com/200605080016
al-Zarqawi
The
The Professional,
Interesting about Aaron Russo; thanks. When Russo tried for the Libertarian presidential nomination and lost, Justin Raimondo, main columnist on antiwar.com, wrote a column that it showed the Libertarian party was committing suicide (scrol to last paragraph) http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=2701
It would be very positive if antiwar.com changed its policy of not running anything that contradicts the official 911 version.
Zapping the Empire: The
Zapping the Empire: The Other "United 93" Trailer
Music mixed with snips of recent Flight 93 interviews. 20 megs, 16 minutes.
http://www.indybay.org/uploads/united93trailer0428.mp3
Also at
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/04/9529.php
http://dc.indymedia.org/media/all/display/29723/index.php?limit_start=108
Take back the media.
Introducing: The YBBS
Introducing: The YBBS Commercial - Audio Inside
http://video.google.com/video
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4574366633014832928
"The difference being, I can
"The difference being, I can prove they had something to do with it. There are things that took place that day that couldn't have without their direct involvement."
That being the case means you don't have to propose that which looks like a week case.
"That being the case means
"That being the case means you don't have to propose that which looks like a week case."
What's a weak case?
This was a show trial. And
This was a show trial. And it didn't work. The Neo-Cons won't get their closure. What do they have up their sleeves next? June 6th, 2006 approaches. 6-6-6.
I spent last week in
I spent last week in southern California working with the producers of a soon-top-be released 9/11 documentary.
All I can tell you is that this is going to be outstanding. They have major new interview footage (unreleased) and an editor who is very, very skilled.
The first installment should be out within two months.
"I spent last week in
"I spent last week in southern California working with the producers of a soon-top-be released 9/11 documentary.
All I can tell you is that this is going to be outstanding. They have major new interview footage (unreleased) and an editor who is very, very skilled.
The first installment should be out within two months."
Good luck with that Richard.
http://www.mediumrecords.com/
http://www.mediumrecords.com/wtc/southtower.trinity.avi
Can anybody confirm that that is not manipulated?
(I've seen very similiar footage)
*****
"Republicans ... Does President Bush owe his controversial win in 2000 to Fox cable television news? ... Republicans"
Could you stop politicizing this board
*****
timbermonkey, primary L/C mistakes, from memory:
Pentagon:
- entry hole size (see 911research.wtc7.net for essay)
- blue tarp
- A3 Skywarrior
- debris, engine parts
- pretty much everything else...
Other:
- UA93 landed in Cleveland
- suspecting the victims in a nasty way
- lotsa speculation
http://media2.uploadjar.com/uploads/911_loose_change_vie15a3eb.pdf
(still no contact info for the author of that attack piece)
sure Able, just as soon as
sure Able, just as soon as some people here stop blaming liberals for 9/11. i didnt start this political shit here, im just finishing it.(and you cant deny Fox News helped Bush win the election. thats not political, thats a crime.Bush's cousin worked at Fox News and made the anchors call it for Bush.that is criminal.)
hey youre dhs---youre one of
hey youre dhs---youre one of those guys that made loose change!!
wow
RANDKILLER999 | 05.05.06 - 3:16 pm | #
No I'm not.
I will definitely be at Ground Zero. I already have the personal day submitted at work. I will also have a bunch of people with me. I'll have DVDs, VCDs, flyers, etc. We'll be ready to roll, will you???
BTW: still looking for input on my 911facts.net website and corresponding video, Mahmoud, Mineta, Sibel Edmonds, Secret Service response, etc are already prime pieces, but I can use more input or recommendations! Anyone who contributes will be posted on the thank you page.
email me 911HijackerDotCom@gmail.com
" timbermonkey, primary L/C
"
timbermonkey, primary L/C mistakes, from memory:
Pentagon:
- entry hole size (see 911research.wtc7.net for essay)
- blue tarp
- A3 Skywarrior
- debris, engine parts
- pretty much everything else...
Other:
- UA93 landed in Cleveland
- suspecting the victims in a nasty way
- lotsa speculation"
Add to that, from my own foggy memory, they claimed it was a B-52 that hit the Empire State building long ago. Of course, it was a B-25. A B-52 is absolutely gigantic, and wasn't put into service until many years later.
S.
and you cant deny Fox News
and you cant deny Fox News helped Bush win the election. thats not political, thats a crime.Bush's cousin worked at Fox News and made the anchors call it for Bush.that is criminal.)
Chris | Homepage | 05.05.06 - 6:26 pm | #
Fox News did not count the votes...
lol ironically, neither did the vote counters!
Chris, I don't think people
Chris,
I don't think people were "blaming liberals for 9/11" as you put it... I think the conversation was just frustration that those who already greatly distrust the neocons are putting their heads in the sand.
ok. not blaming liberals,
ok. not blaming liberals, but completely giving conservatives(who happen to love fake wars based on lies for the most part) a free pass. like i said, at least liberals dont blindly support nsa spying, patriot act, wars based on lies and distortions etc etc etc. all i see is "if only liberals would speak out about 9/11". i hate to tell you this, but establishment liberals are the same corporate whores as establishment conservatives. i dont know why these people expect different from them.
i never said Fox News
i never said Fox News counted the votes, but the rest of the MSM followed when they prematurely called it for Bush. Fox made a huge difference and you know it.
Chris: while i do believe it
Chris:
while i do believe it was misleading, I do not think it made a difference.
The difference was when the votecounting was stopped, which happened later.
How Bush's man at Fox News
How Bush's man at Fox News worked to shape the outcome of the US election
By Kate Randall
17 November 2000
In the early morning hours of November 8, Fox News Channel declared that the pivotal state of Florida had gone for George W. Bush. At 2:16 a.m. Fox announced that the Texas governor had won the state, thus securing the 271 electoral votes needed to win the presidential election. The other television networks followed suit in a matter of minutes. The call was subsequently withdrawn, and to date the Florida outcome remains undecided.
The individual responsible for recommending that Fox call Florida for Bush was John Ellis, who led the network's decision desk. Ellis was not a disinterested party in the presidential election, but the first cousin of the Republican candidate and his brother, Florida Governor Jeb Bush.
Details emerging since Election Day concerning Ellis's role in the network's decision to call Florida for Bush raise serious questions as to whether his actions and Fox News's complicity constituted not only a violation of the democratic rights of the electorate, but a criminal conspiracy.
Shortly after 6 p.m. two waves of exit polls from the Voter News Service (a consortium set up by the major TV networks and Associated Press) showed the Florida vote going for Democratic candidate Al Gore. John Ellis received a call from the Bush campaign in Austin and told them the bad news. At 7:52 p.m. the major networks, including Fox, called Florida for Gore.
Just after 8 p.m. Jeb Bush phoned Ellis and asked him, “Are you sure?”, to which Ellis responded, “We're looking at a screen full of Gore.” It was at this point that the Bush campaign—aided by information to which they were privy via their family connection at Fox—went into overdrive to reverse what appeared to be a Democratic victory.
The Bush team called a press conference at the governor's mansion in Austin and told the media that, in their opinion, the vote was too close to call in Pennsylvania and Florida. The convening of such a meeting with the press was highly unusual and broke with previous election night precedent, according to which candidates refrain from talking to the press until one of them concedes and the other makes a victory speech.
The actions of the Bush campaign constituted a bald-faced attempt to co-opt a servile media into stampeding public opinion in its favor. The TV networks broadcast the interview even as large numbers of voters were still heading to the polls.
The Bush protest appeared to achieve the desired effect. According to Ellis's account, Voter News Service reports showed a reversal in Florida between 8:00 and 9:00 p.m. in Bush's favor. Attributing their previous projection for the Democrats to “bad data” in one Florida county, between 9:00 and 9:30 all of the networks retracted their call for Gore and called the race “too close to call.”
http://www.janrainwater.com/htdocs/FoxNews.htm
The media as a whole has
The media as a whole has been reluctant to make much of John Ellis's election night activities. Numerous calls by the World Socialist Web Site to the television networks elicited “no comment.” Consistent with their role in obscuring the machinations of the Republican right—first in the effort to drive Clinton from office, and now in the effort to obtain Florida's electoral votes and the presidency by means of fraud—they choose to look the other way.
However an examination of the communication between the Bush cousins on election night—particularly when viewed in light of the subsequent drive by the Republicans to ride roughshod over voters' rights and stampede their way to the White House—exposes something much more sinister than a mere swapping of information.
A glaring anomaly has never been explained. Why did Fox call Florida for Bush at a point when the Texas governor's lead was plummeting so rapidly that before Gore could even reach the location of his concession speech, it had all but evaporated? One plausible scenario is the following: Ellis might have called the election for Bush at 2:16 a.m. not because the poll data from the Voter News Service showed him winning but, on the contrary, because it raised the specter of Bush losing the election.
Did Ellis, fearing that the networks might move Florida back into the Gore column, decide to make a preemptive strike in the hope of stampeding the other networks and conning Gore into making a premature concession? Did the Bush campaign have a hand in Ellis's call?
The strange and unexplained coincidence of a disappearing margin for Bush and Fox's unilateral call, combined with the secret communications between Ellis and the Bush camp, provide sufficient grounds for an investigation into the possibility of an illegal conspiracy to steal the election.
this widow on MSNBC
this widow on MSNBC highlights precisely the methodology we need to be taking in spreading 9/11 awareness. in other words, to make 9/11 an '06 campaign issue, we need to pound out incompetence/LIHOP. MIHOP is too much for too many people. But if we can portray the neocons as bumbling fools who can't keep us safe vis a vis 9/11 instead of trying to expose them as the murdering thieves they are, we will get more people interested, listening, and learning. so that is a huge and important task: make 9/11 an '06 campaign issue. politicize 9/11 in a way that turns it back in the face of their (the neocons) own politicization.
I recently remarked on the
I recently remarked on the Hufschmid/LC2 debate story thread. I'd join Jon Goldstein's yourbbsucks BBS and discuss it but something tells me he would censor it. I remarked the following:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/dazinith/114674829449141873/#97449
===
Inside: "i have a problem with people thinking they know truth just because its been said so many times... why is it so bad to question something???"
Hollywood and the MSM, whoever principly controls them, possesses:
1) The power of suggestion
2) The power of scrutiny
3) The power of repetition
4) The power of censorship
5) The power of smear
We've all seen in this very thread, alot of ADL/AIPAC tools and/or well-trained useful idiots seeking to silence further dialog about Zionism or the truth of the Holocaust, through the abuse of MEMES; ideas suggested and repeated, with alternative perspectives censored & smeared as we've seen herein, until the controller's desired ideas have achieved MEME status:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=MEME
With Hollywood and the MSM having for decades layed the groundwork in properly shaping the sheeple's minds with their desired BS memes (or "meme complexes", see definition above), we have in this very Truth Seeker's comment thread, tools and/or useful idiots invoking the dialog-steering/dialog-terminating fruits of these socially engineered meme complexes with their BS hotbutton smears, conspicuously ignoring all appeals to reason:
"Hitler lover"
"Anti-Semite"
"Neo-Nazi"
"Holocaust denier"
"hateful fringe theories" (smartly avoiding "CT's" here)
Etc.
This thread started out as a 4-comment monologue by Jon Gold, where he evidently sought to invoke the MSM/Hollywood engineered meme complex to set the tone for what would and wouldn´t be acceptable dialog, dropping all the proper meme invoking hot button words, before anyone else even said anything. Then my first post above resulted in yet another Goldman monolog chain, again dropping all the empty meme-reliant smears, with renewed vigor, compensating for the conspicuous lack of reason/merit to his smears. Other ADL/AIPAC goons rallied and next thing we know this thread's a shooting gallery of hollow meme-reliant smears.
Why can't us members of the 9/11 Denial Community just dishonor the victims of 9/11 in peace and harmony?
Well there are plenty of great matrix-smashing links above, for those of you willing to chuckle at the hollow smears, take the red pill & expand your minds a bit.
"What's a weak case?" Huh?
"What's a weak case?"
Huh? The one you made that I compared to OK.
like thunder---the
like thunder---the revelation of the 911hoax is shaking the cosmos
"One of the videos you link
"One of the videos you link to shows the roof collapsing first way before the whole building comes down. We have to consider this part of the collapse sequence don't we and not just something that happened independent of the collapse?"
I base the measurements and calculations on the behavior of those parts of the building that are visible on the video selected for the analysis. That is not the CBS video.
I don't think we need access to physical evidence when we have video evidence showing how fast the buildings came down:
http://911blimp.net/prf_FreeFallPhysics.shtml
Regarding the demonstrations: I agree that 1000 people in a demonstration sounds pitiful. How come the immigrants are so well organized that they appear in the streets in tens of thousands?
"I base the measurements and
"I base the measurements and calculations on the behavior of those parts of the building that are visible on the video selected for the analysis. That is not the CBS video."
Yes, and that's the problem. You need to analyze the entire collapse which started with one penthouse collapsing that is in the CBS video. That means something was happening well before the entire building came down.
It is difficult to analyze.
It is difficult to analyze. All one can see is one of the two penthouses suddenly dropping a few seconds before the main body of the building starts to collapse. In my view it doesn't change the big picture, but fits in with controlled demolition. How would you analyze it?
Mr. Silverstein analyzed it
Mr. Silverstein analyzed it as a controlled demolition performed by the Fire Dept & himself. He seems like an honest fellow to me. What's the big deal?
"It is difficult to analyze.
"It is difficult to analyze. All one can see is one of the two penthouses suddenly dropping a few seconds before the main body of the building starts to collapse. In my view it doesn't change the big picture, but fits in with controlled demolition. How would you analyze it?"
In this video, http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/wtc7_wobble.jpg, the portion of the penthouse on the left side collapses first. I timed just over 7 seconds from that point until the building started to fall.
What happened inside the building during that 7 seconds interval?
"What happened inside the
"What happened inside the building during that 7 seconds interval?"
Most likely a series of incendiaries & explosives where detonated. You know, they "pulled-it" real good.
its ok truthout, you sure as
its ok truthout, you sure as fuck wont stop us. i see what your up to.
Who's stopping you
Who's stopping you Chris?
Don't we need to know what happened in those 7 seconds? Why shouldn't we know for sure?