Trouw, a dutch newspaper published an article about 9/11 today and they have a poll:

Translation:

Do you think that the US blew up the WTC on 11 september 2001 themselves?'

Please vote...vote 'ja' (yes) an press 'stem' (vote)

http://www.trouw.nl/hetnieuws/nederland/article401831.ece/Complottheorie...

(on the right side, in the blue square)

A translation of the article can be found here:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9251

Truthers are not doing well in that poll^. Please vote!

Cynthia Mckinney needs some help over at alternet.org

http://www.alternet.org/story/39637/

it kills me to see the left gatekeepers fear and hate Mckinney so much. its the same fear that comes from the right when it comes to her. fuck alternet.

I am calling in on Randi Rhodes today and will try for Sean Hannity and Michael Savage. I will make sure to mention Tue, 6:10 pm, C-SPAN.

Please do not just read these posts and go back to web browsing or TV watching. This may the difference between removing these criminals and stopping WW III. The stakes could not be higher.

Which shows will you be calling? Lets do this now. Enough with the defeatism and self-pity, make one call.

Remember, it's easy- you can still work, travel, etc while you are on hold. The call itself only takes 3 minutes.

PLEASE, LETS GET 10 million people to watch this C-SPAN broadcast

-Dan

Pretty good article on that skunk Zakheim, who a lot of people have surmised is the remote control guru.

Following Zakheim and Pentagon trillions to Israel and 9-11
http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_1047.shtml

Those of you who can post on DailyKos, please write diaries about the C-SPAN rebroadcast.

plenty of talk about war games, military response etc. in my opinion.

My girlfriend agreed... The C-SPAN coverage was great, but Fetzer did the movement no favors by acting like a maniac. Look at the tape again.

Or they're not being allowed on TV.

Actually, and I don't give Fetzer many compliments, but his last appeal regarding the environmental disaster was pretty powerful.

i watched it 3 times and loved Fetzer every time. "the movement" isnt as monolithic as some here think it is.

it other words, just because people see Fetzer on C-Span going over the top,at least in your mind, doesnt mean they are gonna equate the whole movement and questions about 9/11 with "that loud guy".

No offense to Alex Jones, but he just sounds like a nut, with that gravel voice and machine gun delivery. It's easily an overload of data. I have trouble with so much of what I read on prisonplanet that I worry about getting hit with that big brush.

Actually, I thought Alex did a great job in reigning himself in during the debate. The key is for those that don't know the truth about 9/11, I would steer them clear from this debate. It sounded like maniacs ranting about "conspiracy theory". Sorry.

to do this vital world-historical work.

The hand on my pomposity meter (purchased for whenever Gold visited my blog) just flew off the scale...

I disagree.

Fetzer, Jones et al were great.

Sorry guys. Again loved the coverage but Fetzer seemed like a looney. Tarpley was effective. But again, for the uninitiated, was very uneffective. My girlfriend knows it was a coverup, and she laughed everytime Fetzer vented. And she is a lot smarter than me.

Kurt, you are right. As much as I love Alex, I was just fighting on another board where some newbies watched the show and they were pretty dismissive of Jones. And when they go to Prisponplanet/Infowars/BullhornCentral they immediately get turned off by all of the conspiracy talk there.

My only other beef is that the C-SPAN show didn't walk through a lot of basics for newbies, it was more geared toward that audience.

Yeah... and then C-SPAN pans to the audience.. Yikes. Reminded me of the hippie movement in the late '60s.

Again, great coverage but the 9/11 leaders need to be coached in selling the truth. Fetzer and Jones included.

K.

Somebody just got through to Hannity! Amazing! They said "watch C-SPAN at 6 pm tomorrow!"

The call was at 3:28 pm

I am on hold with Hannity now- I will make sure to plug it even harder.

Tonight I am calling Savage...

I tried Randi Rhodes but the screener claimed they were going to mention the 9-11 conference. We shall see.

Next time I have to remember to lie when calling the screeners...

KEEP IT UP! WE CAN DO THIS!

Please make one call and reach millions.

-Dan

"The hand on my pomposity meter (purchased for whenever Gold visited my blog) just flew off the scale..."

Explain this to me Terrence like I'm a 2 year old. Why is it that you, and S. King, etc... only want to talk about Controlled Demolition?

Terrence is gone. The time for debate is long gone, we've got a golden opportunity, lets use it. Remember, goal of disinfo is to waste our time, especially during times like these...

Jon, make some calls!!! You can play with your little friends another time.

hannity and colmes want the public to see what a bunch of nutcases we are.

"Jon, make some calls!!! You can play with your little friends another time."

Listen truther of my loins... you will address me as Sir.

I brought you into this world, I can take you out, and make another one look just like you.

Best Bill Cosby line ever.

brought you into this world, I can take you out, and make another one look just like you.

LOL...

Sullen shills - always a great sign. :)

Fetzer needs to be quieted at least during public discussion. Keep Tarpley. He is intelligent and very knowledgeable. Bowman, he wants to get elected thus not trusted. Jones can be great, but needs coaching. Alex is Alex. I love the guy and believe he is honorable yet he also wants to make a living.. even on 9/11.

I will distribute those C-SPAN fliers tomorrow afternoon in the Manhattan subways

I brought you into this world, I can take you out, and make another one look just like you.

You'll get your chance. Until then, you can do what you're best at, shooting your mouth off. Get to it, time to put all those facts to use...

"You'll get your chance. Until then, you can do what you're best at, shooting your mouth off. Get to it, time to put all those facts to use..."

I'm at work dood. Not much I can do between the hours of 8:30 - 5:30.

Is this a new batch of shills ? :)

Sorry guys, I have to agree with Kurt. If I was a newbie, I would not have even gotten through 5 minutes of the panel discussion before changing the channel. I do not think we should be promoting this at all.

- Fetzer was over the top
- Bowman was begging for donations and preaching like a nut
- Tarpley was talking about "Angel is Next"
- Steven Jones did not sound convincing

Alex Jones did the best job, but first impressions are always negative. He takes a little work before you can warm up to him - also, the InfoWars.com ad on the podium should have been st911.org instead.

I'm sorry folks, but I am very concerned that this coverage will really hurt us. It was okay for us folks who are aclimated to 9/11 truth, but would be a complete turn-off for newcomers.

There are already enough facts out there to prosecute and convict. This blog has done a great job in bringing those facts out. But now, so what? Anybody here the attorney general for NY or any other state that has the power to bring the criminals to justice?

Highway blogging and other activist movements are quite quaint, but that is not bringing these criminals to justice. It will take another million man/women march to gain attention, not highway blogging. Let's be real.

Nobody wants to be executed for treason.

As a result the criminals and those complicit will not initiate proceedings leading to their own demise. I think this would be exceedingly obvious.

Well... what's done is done. No need to cry over spilled milk. I was just making an observation... sure, it was "entertaining" for us, but I started to think about how I would have reacted back in the day, and I probably would have been skeptical.

We definitely shouldn't promote it as the be all end all... there are so many other things to promote.

Like my O&A appearance. NOT.

The big problem is that the authors of the official fable refuse to discuss their unsubstantiated fairy tale and the mass media and congress cover with them.

Reason: the official fable can not be defended. Falsehoods ca not be proven.

are you gonna be on O&A Jon? good luck, Norton is a rightwing toolbag. i e-mailed back and forth with him and completely destroyed his little "the media is liberal" argument. its started off with him actually trying to debate me, but when it was clear i was coming with the facts all he could do was insult me.

Fetzer was over the top.

Bowman has a chance to make it to Congress AND he delivered two very effective lines that would be accessible to any audience member with a wisp of curiosity:

--The truth about 9/11 is that we don't know the truth about 9/11.

--If the government has nothing to hide, why is it hiding everything?

Tarpley's "Angel is Next" is a crucial piece of data for people who are well informed about 9/11 but who think "Bush did it."

Steven Jones sounded convincing to me. Also, I think he made an important statement when he acknowledged Jim Hoffman despite the Hoffman-Fetzer feud -- ie, we have to be bigger than that.

I really don't think there's any way this coverage will hurt us. I think it's far more likely (in terms of negative outcome) that people just thought "What the hell?" and turned the channel.

There are already enough facts out there to prosecute and convict.

Kurt, any suggestions on how we can get a million men and women to march in New York and Washington?

Let me make this clear. I KNOW that our government MIHOP. No doubt about it. But we need better representatives to convey that truth. More media savvy, as opposed to those that embarrass that movement, especially as it relates to Fetzer. He does nothing good for the movement. Yes, he is knowledgeable, but so are the rest of us. On TV, he looks like one of those villains from a Harry Potter movie...scary and unbelievable.

Media..

I am not a PR expert, so I have nothing to input regarding this. I can only express my opinion from a person convinced our country is being looted by those in power in our government.

If Schultz says he is unfamiliar with the menuever the Pentagon plane made, this means he hasn't even read the 9/11 Commision Report. This is in the first chapter!

'Lecturer explains 9/11 theories'

http://www.gazetteextra.com/barrettlecture073106.asp

Has anyone done a recording of this lecture by Kevin Barrett?

For 9/11 to break wide open, it is going to take a major whistleblower to break this thing wide open. But who is that whistleblower going to be? No offense, but sites like this one are great, but we are only spinning our wheels. Already, 42% of the U.S. public already believes there is some type of coverup behind 9/11. But have you EVER heard that on the MSM? That is a bigger percentage than those fucktard that currently support our "President" for Godsakes. That is not news?

Nope. Charlie Sheen.. God bless his motley soul. He came out. But he is scarred. The media hopped on him like my small PomPoo hopped on an unexpecting she-Poodle the other day.

We talk a great game. The facts are with us, but the media is not. We need to stop getting a boner anytime Vanity Fair or C-SPAN features us. Can you tell I am getting a bit impatient with our movement? I spent a weekend in Hell thinking about my conviction towards the 9/11 movement. It is the right thing to do, as an American, and as a human. We can NOT LET our government get away with this heinous crime. We all know the ramifications from 9/11. We need to stop it now. Freeway blogging, calling in to C-SPAN, emailing liberal shows are nice shows of resistance to the MAN, but are inadequate to say the least.

I vow that I will be in attendance at GZ on 9/11. I will wear my "Investigate 9/11" t-shirt. Do I think it will help our movement? A little, but not much. I am an American. We are still the greatest country in the world. We Americans deserve better than what our government has provided us in the last 50 or so years. We are the country that elected Washington, Lincoln, Roosevelt, Kennedy as our leaders. Were they all infallible? Of course not. Washington basically sucked as an American General in the Revolution, Lincoln imposed habeus corpus during the Civil War, Kennedy fucked Marilyn Monroe (who wouldn't?) and Roosevelt let America get involved in WWII.

But Bush..... this guy needs to be stopped. And I am talking before his remaining two years is up.

Ha, well said, Kurt. Sibel could unravel the patsy financing and get the ball rolling. However, the there are probably a couple of Dems out of those 1o or so high level Americans who would be implicated, so I am not even sure if a Dem. Congress will do the necessary investigation. If the Dems. win the House, you bet your ass there will be a war or false flag to head off any type of investigation of 9/11, Iraq intelligence and all the rest of it.

The authors of the official fable must be forced to discuss their fairy tale. However; since CLEARLY nobody wants to be executed - we're stuck in the mommy of all catch-22's.

OT:

Does anyone know where I can get a MPEG clip of the press conference Bush had after he and Cheney met with the 9/11 commission? It's the one that was in the Michael Moore film extras.

How much do you guys think Rudy knew ahead of time? I'm sure it was made clear to him after the fact to get that place cleaned up ASAP, but I always wonder about his foreknowledge. He disgusts me even more than Cheney and Rumsfeld, who I am sure were the two admin. officials behind everything.

kurt cobain was a bitch

go choke on some scrotum
___________________________________--

the audience looked great--it was all great

What Kurt is talking about is this...

Would You Partake In A National March?

Randi just announced the CSPAN show! Somebody broke through!!!

Something so big, so massive, that the media would have to cover it.

She cut the guy off though. Almost like she was reluctant to promote it.

Or maybe I'm just being overly sensitive. At least it got promoted. Randi's got a nice sized audience.

Why isn't this campaign announced on 911truth.org?

http://www.911truth.org/index.php

"Why isn't this campaign announced on 911truth.org?"

Everything goes through a process there.

From an article by Doron Kornbluth, here is the reason 9/11 Truth advocates need VISUALS in all of their appearances (and why, yes, Fetzer is not a good spokesperson):

"On that Sunday in 1984, I remember a rare change from the standard structure of the show. Diane Sawyer, the first female host of 60 Minutes, appeared with Mike Wallace for a short discussion near the end of the show. He introduced his colleague as having a fascinating story to tell, which indeed it was.

She shared a conversation that she had just had which had resulted from a recent 60 Minutes segment on the campaign. Her first report was a long, critical analysis of Reagan's first term in office.

Viewers saw pictures of the President visiting a homeless shelter, while Diane Sawyer's voice dubbed over the images explained that Reagan had reduced funding to such institutions while the number of poor had skyrocketed during his term in office.

Viewers saw Reagan glad-handing with African-Americans while Sawyer described his attacks on affirmative action and other programs dear to the African-American community.

Viewers also saw Reagan with schoolchildren while simultaneously they heard Sawyer rail against his massive cuts in school funding. Her report continued in like fashion for eight minutes (a lifetime in television terms) and by the end of it, the honesty, credibility, and reputation of Reagan's administration had, according to Sawyer, suffered serious damage. She was sure that she would never be allowed to set foot in the White House again, and even feared that her press passes would be revoked.

Dreading the awaited phone call from the White House Press Secretary, Ms. Sawyer was quite surprised when he called to thank her for her segment and offered to help her in any way he could.

"What?!" she exclaimed. "I spent eight minutes on prime time television attacking you! Why are you thanking me?" she asked.

"Diane," he replied, "you don't understand. No one listens to the news. People watch the news. It is television and they are viewers. You gave us eight minutes of golden images. We couldn't have paid for better publicity. We owe you one.""

C. Rose, I am not sure if other radio hosts feel comfortable jocking another host, especially Alex Jones.

Jon: I believe that the terrence et al like to talk about controlled demolition so much because we talk about it so much. And we talk about it so much because it takes a very high degree of naivety to think that this resulted from anything else than it.

I just dont want everone's hope to go up due to the C-SPAN coverage. The content of the topic was minimal at best. I personally was very disappointed with the LA conference. The 9/11 movement can do much better than that. The worst part is that the panel knew they might actually get aired on C-SPAN..!!! UGGGHHH!

No offense, but the audience in attendance that C-SPAN kept panning looked like hoodlums...

The guys are old and vulnerable to slipping up I bet. Maybe someone can create a discussion with Rummy or Cheney at a public press conference and set a trap. I think Sander Hicks paid five grand to ask Cheney a question in a public forum. He could of used this as an opportunity to set him up. Rather than asking Dick what he thought about the people who claim 9/11 was an inside job, maybe he should've said something like this:

"Mr. Cheney, what was going through your mind when you first heard of the bombs going off at the world trade centers."

Again, I guess this is wishful thinking. Afterall Bush has even claimed (twice) seeing the first plane hit the first tower. And didn't Rummy once say Flight 93 was shot down?

"Jon: I believe that the terrence et al like to talk about controlled demolition so much because we talk about it so much. And we talk about it so much because it takes a very high degree of naivety to think that this resulted from anything else than it."

I think there's a different reason, but I'm NOT about to open up a can o' worms.

No. Don't ask me to tell you. I'm not going to open the can.

I just got an email from Scott Ritter. :) Going to talk to him about the "Hard Facts" that he says don't exist.

I think it's a very good sign that shills dislike people who have managed basically a 50% national approval rating against the official fairy tale. Not alone of course but these are high profile people in the 9/11 truth movement.

Last night I had wet dream.

Oprah Winfrey did a show dedicated to 9/11 Truth.

She had Cynthia McKinney, Steven Jones, Kevin Barrett, Sibel Edmonds and the Jersey Girls on.

Then she brought George Bush out to the couch where she tore into him like he'd written "A Million Little Pieces".

Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame came out and George begged for their forgiveness.

George then broke down in tears and was frog marched off the set in handcuffs.

She then called for a new March on Washington were she demanded a recall election. She won in a landslide and immediately took the oath of office the next day.

Her first order of business was to sentence the rest of the Bush cabal (including Condi and Colin) to prison for treason.

She then dumped Stedman and had me flown up to Washington were we were married in a simple civil ceremony.

We had our honeymoon at the U.S. Treasury where we made love on a pile of $1 billion in cash.

I did say it was a "wet" dream.

:-)

Rummy also said that a missile was used to damage the Pentagon. Slips of tongue -- or not...

Chat convo I had with a friend today that he initiated:

Friend: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/northwoods.html
me: i breathe operation northwoods
Friend: in the early 60's the us planned fake terrorist attacks from Cuba, including flying a plane into a building killing, preferably, students
haha, word
me: who sent you this?
Friend: no one
i was watching C-Span yesterday and some dude was talking about it
I only get 6 channels

"....kurt cobain was a bitch

go choke on some scrotum
___________________________________--

the audience looked great--it was all great
RANDKILLER999 | 07.31.06 - 4:51 pm | #
....."

No, it was not all great unless you were one of those wearing the sleeveless t-shirts in need of some Right Guard deodorant.

I just want to settle all of us down a bit from the C-SPAN coverage. Yes, the coverage was awesome. But Fetzer, Jones and Bowman did our movement not favors. Tarpley, who actually deviated significantly to the 9/11 agenda was the most well spoken of the bunch. How I wish Griffin would have been there.

When *you', Jon, see WTC 7 collapsing, don't you find it very difficult to believe that it could have been caused by anything else than CD? Just thinking in terms of common sense, I mean.

Whatever happened to P-TECH, Indira Singh, Sibel Edmonds, Put Options, No military response, foreknowledge, CIA/Wall Street connections, drug running, money laundering, and all of kind of thing? Where did it go?
Jon Gold | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 2:37 pm | #

Indira Singh said a couple of years ago that se will write a book but so far she seemed to be gaged..

Well, Ptech was stormed and busted by agents in 2002 so case closed..?

"When *you', Jon, see WTC 7 collapsing, don't you find it very difficult to believe that it could have been caused by anything else than CD? Just thinking in terms of common sense, I mean."

Yup.

"Well, Ptech was stormed and busted by agents in 2002 so case closed..?"

Not if it had something to do with 9/11.

I just got an email from Scott Ritter. Going to talk to him about the "Hard Facts" that he says don't exist.
Jon Gold |

This is good news. Scott is smart enough, and also courageous enough to speak up

Loose Change is climbing again on Google Video's Top100. Maybe it's because of C-SPAN's coverage..

"I just got an email from Scott Ritter. Going to talk to him about the 'Hard Facts' that he says don't exist."

Go Jon, go!!!

PrisonPlanet is linking to 911Blogger's recent posts:

"The 9/11 Blogger website is coordinating numerous activism campaigns in alliance with the C-Span coverage, including encouraging UN members to view the broadcast, targeting left and right radio and TV gatekeepers, and also a flyer campaign.

We implore everyone to get onboard with these campaigns and help spread 9/11 truth to the four corners of the world via the exemplary platform of the American Scholars Symposium."

http://prisonplanet.com/articles/july2006/310706cspan.htm

I'd just love to see another national poll. :)

I think it is now time for "Terrorstorm" to climb to the top video. It is, after all, an even better documentary than Loose Change - partly because it offers more historical context (and is more precise factually).

Historical examples of false flag operations are very important in my opinion, because they show that a "false flag 9/11" would not be something new. People also need to learn from history. They need to see that conspicacies are a common phenomenon throughout human history, not some kind of rarity, as the powers that be want us to think.

Perhaps we shouldn't so much fight the label "conspiracy theorist" as try to make the term neutral. One way of doing this is showing that today's conspiracy theories are often tomorrow's historical facts. Be proud of the designation "conspiracy theorist"!

I think a video that contains NOTHING that is in Loose Change, and EVERYTHING that wasn't in Loose Change, would be quite good.

Maybe we should start a list...

I'll go first:

1) Mahmoud Ahmad
2) Sibel Edmonds
3) Norman Mineta

"what time Jon? if im home i absolutely am. i hope somebody tapes it."

7:30

Today's release of government evidence preempts Webster Tarpley plea. Scholars for 9/11 Truth to release "comprehensive denial paper" in response.

Some of the 1,200 exhibits are graphic, court warns

Monday, July 31, 2006; Posted: 5:49 p.m. EDT (21:49 GMT)

ALEXANDRIA, Virginia (AP) -- Exhibits from the trial of convicted terrorist Zacarias Moussaoui, including photographs of September 11 carnage and tape-recorded final phone calls from World Trade Center victims, were posted Monday by a federal court.

United States v. Zacarias Moussaoui Criminal No. 01-455-A Prosecution Trial Exhibits

Don't forget about Mike Malloy tonight! He should be all over this!!!

Famous 2002 Bali Bombing blamed on al Qaeda turns out to be an inside job:
http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-7-31/44426.html

What a shocker. *sarcasm*

Please suggest your favorite 9/11 books in the 9/11 Truth Book Group

Only two I've liked enough to recommend are Crossing the Rubicon and 9/11 Synthetic Terror. Heard good things about David Ray Griffin's books but haven't read them yet. Any others?

Yeah... and then C-SPAN pans to the audience.. Yikes. Reminded me of the hippie movement in the late '60s.

Again, great coverage but the 9/11 leaders need to be coached in selling the truth. Fetzer and Jones included.

K.
Kurt | 07.31.06 - 3:37 pm | #

You see dude this is where I disagree, personally I think the way they all handled themselves was great because it was natural and genuine. People are receptive to that, I know I am. The problem with "PR" is that it's fake, insincere yet trying to present the opposite with a bullshit kind of pretence. Look at Tony B-Liar, or that John Edwards, they’ve both got “PR” skills, and they both ooze bullshit, B-Lair with everything he says and Edwards with his fake “I want power” smile. Everyone’s got different opinions, I thought the C-Span panel conference was inspiring and historically groundbreaking, Bowman rocked it, I thought his performance in particular was fantastic. Jim Fetzer had a tremendous passion that came across really well from my perspective. Webster Tarpley was fantastically intellectual and very interesting to listen to. Steven Jones just blew it all out of the water with that sample. And Alex Jones did a top job mediating, and what I think he’s great for which was give those brilliant speeches with that energy he has.

thank you for the wargames links!

All this co-operation and teamwork is bringing tears to my eyes. Thanks to everyone, a little gift for all of you will be posted on the blogger shortly...

New WTC flyer to use at the Oliver Stone film (with accompanying DVDs if you'd like
http://www.unitedslavesofamerica.org/wtcflyer.jpg

http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution...

Do you think that the US blew up the WTC on the 11th september 2001 themselves?'

Please vote...vote 'ja' (yes) an press 'stem' (vote)
http://www.trouw.nl/hetnieuws/nederland/article401831.ece/Complottheorie...
(on the right side, in the blue square)

A translation of this Dutch newspaper article, which is pretty good, can be found here:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?s=be43f25698cfb...

Anybody checking out the FAA Security Directives?

close to 150k for the month of July

http://www.sitemeter.com/?a=stats&s=s21911blogger&r=36

DBLS,i agree with everything you just said. but come on dude, you couldnt come up with a worse politician than Edwards? as far as politicians go, hes one of the better ones. im not saying i like him, hes as fake as the rest, but at least he TALKS about poverty.(he actually has done some good work in this area).but i see your point.

Debates On!!!

Real Player

WIndows Media Player

First one to find the smoking gun will get credit for saving the world :)

http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/

The magic passport:

http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution...

My parents are in their early 80's, fairly liberal, and have not been exposed to alternatives to the official 9/11 story. They watched the CSPAN coverage for about an hour. My mother said
"I appreciate the points of view, but felt that their case would be stronger if they stuck to the
facts rather than appealing to people's emotions." This falls in line with comments some have made about preaching to the choir, and I agree. However, I felt it was fantastic to see SOMETHING on TV from the truth movement.

We all know this panel discussion wasn't geared toward new people, and going forward any opportunities in the media should probably take this into consideration.

Cynthia rules!

goddamn right. the only politician i have any real respect for.

The magic passport:

http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/not...on/ WT00001.html
simuvac | 07.31.06 - 7:41 pm | #
HAHAHAHAHA, no fuckin way, thats THE magic passport? the one that survived the inferno? BBWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, barely a scratch on it.the I.D. im wearing for work right now is worn out more than that.

Two quick comments:

Somewhere in one of the HaloScan threads:

simuvac made A VERY GOOD POINT about the visual component of TV. Edison, who was working in film and a precursor of TV technology, said that the most powerful entry for learning was vision.

In re: P-Tech, don't forget GeorgeWashington's blog on Chertoff's assistance in deflecting or standing down related investigations.

As far as I know the government funded structural engineers didn't even come up with the pancake theory. Anybody know who and when was the first time it was even mentioned?

I believe that Bazant and Zhou were among the first two to publish it as a possiblity for the collapse, though having heard other engineers speaking, it seems that it was a fairly common stream of thought from watching the collapses.

What would be the point in any of them publically accusing the US government of treason?

You mean apart from being able to publically humiliate an Administration they don't like?

What would they have to gain?

You mean apart from scientific and worldwide fame for bring down a US Administration?

They would bring untold attention on themselves, and most people would suggest they have an agenda against the US anyway, so what they are saying can't be trusted.

Yeah they would get untold attention.... from the science community. I do have to ask if you are suggesting that if someone in Iran or North Korea or China published a paper showing scientifically and conclusively that the towers could not have collapsed as advertised, that the US would send in a secret death squad to bump them off? And if this is your allegation, what exactly would that achieve after they had published their results for the world to see?

I'd also have to ask why haven't those in the 9/11 "Truth" groups been so targeted if this assumption is correct? If people like Dr Jones haven't been "taken out," why would an engineer publishing a paper in China be?

The people who built my house were not structual engineers.

Ever flown in a plane? Driven over a bridge? Worked in an office building?

Everybody reached that conclusion before the evidence was presented and the way before any investigation had even started.

No, they started with a hypothesis based on the evidence at hand. This is the way science and investigation works. Say you are the investigating officer at a murder scene. The victim has several small round shaped holes in his front and back and there is a linging smell of gunpower in the room. Do you start looking for a gun, or an icepick? Sure you might be wrong and the autopsy might send you in a new direction, but you start the investigation based on the evidence you have to hand and modify it as more evidence comes in. Over here we have had a recent spat of murders. To me I find it amazing that the police can make an arrest without having all the evidence, and they keep doing it, but then I step back and realise that it's not a case of needing all the evidence to make the arrest, all you need is enough to start seeing the picture, from there you can full in the rest as you gather more information. Only when something doesn't fit do you have to re-evaluate what you're seeing.

In this case from moment one the evidence was that a 767 hit each tower. That is an indisputable fact. The second indisputable fact is that there was a fire resulting from that. Thus a hypothesis that the towers fell solely from the damage applied to them by impact and fire is not only a valid hypothesis, it is a hypothesis that MUST be disproven prior to making further assumptions. This is what NIST attempted to do. By using a long proven engineering model, they recreated the impact and fire in a computer varying the starting conditions of the impact within a reasonable range (this was done because there is no way to know the exact speed and weight of the plane at impact so guesses of what these were have to be made within what we know is likely. ie we can calculate a maximum and a minimum speed, and a maximum and a minimum weight. By putting the values between those figures into the model, we can gaurentee that we'll get the right values even if we're not sure which one is right.) Thus when their model showed that the impact and fire would have caused a collapse they moved to step three, they compared the results thier model suggested with what results they needed from the RL event. This included comparing images of the impacts to what the model was suggesting they should see, and comparing a number of mid-temperature metal samples from known positions with what their model was telling them those metal samples should have been heated too. In finding that these reference impact images and reference metal samples were matching what their models were saying, they have to reach the conclusion that the collpases could have been caused by only impact and fire. IOf you want to know more about Fine Element Analysis (FEA) and how long it has been used, and why it is used, and how and why NIST verified it and why they only used mid-temperature reference samples, JayUtah, one of our engineers and a guy that writes FEA programs for people such as Boeing, has written up a number of very long posts on the subject on this board, as have I, though I'll admit to not knowing anywhere near as much. Here are some.

Basic FEA
Jay Teaches FEA
More Jay

There are others but I don't have time to look for them all today.

What is your definition of credible?

Something that doesn't require changing the laws of physics, that accurately models what happened using industry tried and validated methods, instead of what the CT's assume or want to have happened using home made and untested methods they have concocted themselves. Something that is able to be falsified but hasn't been, something that is detailed and self consistant, and something that requires less assumptions and intuative leaps that the Current theory

What evidence would you need to change your mind?

see the answer above.

I dispute it because as an outsider looking in, I am able to view the evidence from a completely neutral point of view.

What do you consider an outsider? I'm a layman in structual engineering, though I have learned about the topic from civil engineers (my brother-in-law) and other engineers here and elsewhere (I currently work with a number of them), plus my knowledge of physics and looking up and confirming what I'm being taught. I'm also not an American, the only thing I really have to do with the States is my g/f is one. Most people here know I'm a New Zealander, I don't make a big secret about it. Nor do I make a big secret over my feelings about the current US Administration and particularly the current US President. While I'm not able to speak my mind on the matter here (it's against the rules and I don't want to be banned for Ad Homenim attacks and political postings) on other boards that are less strigent I have made my feelings known quite openly and since others from this board participate there, they know my feelings (I also tend to make it pretty obvious here without actually coming out and saying it, like I am right now.) As such, what makes your outside opinion any more valid or neutral than mine?

The pancake theory miserably fails to explain the speed of the collapses.

Only if you accept the CT timing of the events. In general I don't. The video evidence quite obviously shows that the Towers fell slower (nearly twice) what the CT's claim. They tend to have used the seismic data as a reference, totally ignoring that you can measure it on the videos. I have even seen one site that literally says about WTC 7 "If we ignore the penthouses, the building fell in 8secs compared to 7secs for freefall, this is too fast." In other words, if we ignore half the collapse that's going on, the rest of it was too fast. They do the same with the WTC 1&2 towers.

9/11 conspiracists' debunking continued at http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=795539&postcount=362

Dem Bruce Lee Styles!! | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 7:06 pm | #
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DBLS, I agree with you about the panel being natural and genuine and that people are receptive to that. The message here is way more important than the personnality of the individual who delivers it. I'm a little bit pissed off to read here about the look of Fetzer, the voice of Alex, the shyness of Prof Jones or campaigning of Bowman. We're here to save the world, for God sake!!!

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geggy | 07.31.06 - 6:42 pm | #
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Also, I agree with you geggy that the mouvement should demands for the release of all the classified information and evidence that the bush admistration are suppressing. How can they logically argue National Security to classify this information? Of course, if the m$m would pressure them a little, this would be debated.

I whole heartedly agree with mr. Tarpley. I've been doing my part by engaging the neofascist listeners of a San Diegan NeoFascist A.M. radio personality, Rick Roberts, by commenting on his blog. I'm am growing weary of this group and think i need to step back from this group for a while but would love it if some of y'all would take over for me there. this is the link:
http://www.kfmb.com/rick_blog/

check out the thread w/ the topic of "pedophilia party", in which a official conspiracy theorist tries to debunk merely by saying, "not true!" or "absurd" or "ludicrous" and then thinks that he's effectively 'debunked' me.

9/11infofacts - what the devil are you on about? that's a whole lot of gobbledygook that amounts to nothing.
especially this:
Only if you accept the CT timing of the events. In general I don't. The video evidence quite obviously shows that the Towers fell slower (nearly twice) what the CT's claim.
the 9/11 commission itself stated that the wtc south took only 10 seconds to fall. do you dispute the 9/11 commission's findings?
prof. wood disputes the 9/11 commission, although the collapse times are not the aspect that she disputes.
http://janedoe0911.tripod.com/BilliardBalls.html

the explanations of the collapse that have been given by the 9/11 Commission Report and NIST are not physically possible. A new investigation is needed to determine the true cause of what happened to these buildings on September 11, 2001. The "collapse" of all three WTC buildings may be considered the greatest engineering disaster in the history of the world and deserves a thorough investigation.

not physically possible. deserves a thorough investigation.
_____________

Thank you to everyone who made calls. You are my heroes and are helping to save millions of lives by stopping the next false flag terror attack.

YOU ARE HEROES. For those who have not yet called in, please join. Message boards are fun, but it's time to take back the airwaves and reach millions.

We broke through to many major media markets today, and Tomorrow is the key day. We must each make at least one call, even to a local station. We can say "Don't watch Seinfeld re-runs tonight! Watch C-SPAN at 6:10"

Today I called Hannity and he hung up on me like a coward. Am I discouraged? No! I will call his cowardly ass again tomorrow.

Called Savage and the screener blocked me. Called Randi Rhodes and the screener blocked me. Am I discouraged? Nope. Will call them again tomorrow.

I am calling Colmes and Malloy tonight so listen in, I will use my real name, "Dan"

We are winning. I feel so enthusiastic, we are finally taking action.

This is how mass mobilization and revolutions begin. Lets step it up. And to those who are making calls, please continue to take the lead.

Will update tonight....

Dan (FalseFlagNews.com)

Just called Colmes- Mentioned C-SPAN at 6:10 and he hung up on me without warning.

WOW-

Well, he did so too late. Slow trigger finger Alan.

Mike Malloy is next, then CoastToCoastAM.

-Daniel

I think the Peoples Front of Judea would've done better. It was hardly a coherent roundtable discussion. You need a moderator in such roundtable discussions who represents the uninitiated not one who blabbers and finishes the sentences of his invited panelists.

VOTE

(do you think USA did 911 themselves?)

JA

(yes)

STEM

(vote now)

http://www.trouw.nl/deverdieping/polderpeil/article402196.ece/Denkt_u_da...

currently

YES: 39%
NO: 61%
Total votes: 2662

Famous 2002 Bali Bombing blamed on al Qaeda turns out to be an inside job:

could you check the link, please.

It links to an unrelated chinese-story...

Or was it taken off, or did I miss something?

In this case from moment one the evidence was that a 767 hit each tower. That is an indisputable fact.

I whish it was.

Would someone please go to St Marks on 13 aug.. and record a small mp3?

"the 9/11 commission itself stated that the wtc south took only 10 seconds to fall. do you dispute the 9/11 commission's findings?"

I quess you accept the commission's findings or the video showing conclusively that wtc south took 13 seconds to collapse?

The commission must be right to you.

Jon Gold wrote:

"Why is it do you think that Terrence, S. King, etc... only want to talk about Controlled Demolition?"

That is pretty obvious. CD is the entire foundation of all 9/11 conspiracy theories. Why do you think everyone claims that 9/11 was an inside job?

911facts, CD is only one aspect of 9/11. i suggest you crack a book fool.