Guardian UK covers David Ray Griffin
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1868445,00.html
Full house as leading 9/11 conspiracy theorist has his say
Audrey Gillan
Saturday September 9, 2006
The Guardian
They call it the 9/11 for Truth Movement, and tonight those who believe the attacks on the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon were carried out by the American government and not jihadist hijackers will gather in London's Conway Hall to listen to one of the biggest figures among a growing number of disbelievers.
Two days before the fifth anniversary of the attacks, David Ray Griffin, emeritus professor of philosophy of religion and theology at Claremont graduate university, and author of The New Pearl Harbor and The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions, will ask his audience: "Was 9/11 an inside job?"
Continued...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1868445,00.html
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Thanks for everything 911blogger
and thanks to those who have contributed news and material here,
it has been tremendously helpful. You guys are a national asset.
Cheers,
gangster
New 911Blogger design
I love the new website design. As a couple of minor suggestions: 1) I think it would be helpful if links to outside (including those posted in the Comments section) were set to open in a new window, so that you can view them without being directed away from the 911Blogger site. 2) Perhaps move one of the two columns on the left of the page over to the far right side. At the moment, it feels a bit like the main section of the page is squashed over to the right. I'd prefer it if it was more central.
All the same, fantastic website and great new look!
36%
The article references a recent poll that 36% of americans believe it was likeley the the government had complicity in 9/11. Well if there are almost 300 million people in this country that's about a 100 million people. I believe about a third of Americans would not believe government complicity even if the perps handed them signed confessions told then straight to there face. So I will remove them from my equation. That leaves about two thirds of the people who would actually consider evidence and be able to formulate and informed opinion. So with my eqation it looks like half the people in this country are on the 9/11 band wagon.
It's just amazing to me that with this amount of people in the know how little representation we get from the media. It's like we don't exist or something.I think it just illistrates just how controlled our media is in this country. Scary!
David Ray Griffin
David Ray Griffin continues to remind us this is a "GD" -'Moral' issue!
That said, the ideal end-game is acknowledgement of guilt,...
the restoration of checks-and-balances,...
and ultimately, a World of forgiveness.
You say; "It will never happen!" -?
As we approached the 21st Century, some real 'crazies,' (as they were already known in Washington,) proceeded to run the US as their private insane- asylum. And so they boot-strapped their opposition with nuclear-grade threats.
The history is written and we know the Goverment story is a lie. This 'history' belongs to all of us. We cannot tolerate genocide and torture at the vague insistence of a group of maniacs who stand squarely at odds with God!
So, the 'record' must read; "Bush/Cheney are definately aligned with the Devil!," -agreed?
-Rock on Dr. Griffin!
Shayler -- no-planer
I really worry about David Ray Griffin being associated with David Shayler -- simply because of Shayler's belief that no planes hit the WTC. He and Morgan Reynolds and Nico and all these other fringe people in the 9/11 truth movement are really bringing so much discredit. I try to be open-minded, but I have yet to see ANY cogent argument about that contention -- and, all I can conclude is that they WANT to hurt the movement. I just hope DRG doesn't get tainted thru guilt-by-association with these people.
I can't find the article now about Shayler's no-plane comments -- saw it somewhere here last night, but misplaced it -- and it was a real doozy, especially the last paragraph where the author really slams the entire truth movement. Anyone have the link?
found the link
It was one of CB_Brooklyn's (surprise, surprise) and I'm only going by the article he posted that quotes Shaler as saying he's a no-planer at the WTC.
Original discussion here:
http://www.911blogger.com/node/2670
But, what really got me was the last paragraph of the article at Newstatesman (copy of article "Meet the No Planers" available here, for free - http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=34305 ):
These 9/11 truth campaigners merely add a supposedly scientific gloss to already existing conspiracy theories, trying to make the ridiculous seem respectable. In the process, they actually do a disservice to "historical truth". History gets reduced to a mysterious force beyond our control, and politics - real politics - is imagined to be the preserve of unknown, faceless puppet-masters whom we can never hope to influence. And the rest of us are reduced to the status of helpless spectators, searching amid the rubble of 9/11 and the aftermath of 7/7 for signs of truth and meaning.
I contend that the author would NOT have had the ammunition to write the above if it weren't for people like Shayler and Nico and Morgan Reynolds muddying the waters with their disinfo.
"I contend that the author
"I contend that the author would NOT have had the ammunition to write the above if it weren't for people like Shayler and Nico and Morgan Reynolds muddying the waters with their disinfo."
^ I agree 110%!
Here
Here dude;
http://911blogger.com/node/2670#new
It disappoints me a bit because I did think Shayler was doing good. But him and his apparent partner/former colleague were both ex intelligence, and so it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that they've never left. Think about it, Reynolds is ex-admin/establishment, and he's probably never left either. All the disinfo characters out themselves every time they push this garbage so it is separating the wheat from the chaff. They seem to be all coming out of the woodwork with this "no-planes" bunk, as if the perps are getting really desperate and giving then orders to go full steam on the disinfo.
You know not what you speak!
I too am a proponent of "no-planes" which , like defending 'anarchy,' or 'atheism,' requires just a little bit of real brain-power to understand.
There is a scientific reason to defend Nico and Webfairy and Jimmy Walter's point of view.
In Science, you have to first establish something concrete. Like defining the number 'zero.'
Beyond your evident field of vision, each of the 30-something Science & Justice Alliance members have followed 100-fold more information pertaining to physical evidence, and supposition of alternative views on 'what is fact.'
Take the second hit to close analysis and you only have TWO ways to accomplish this feat. Either computer-generate it, or make a plane that has no evidence of mass.
One can solve the 'no-mass' problem through applied pyrotechnics.
Either way- Nico is only trying to say to us, (in his cute journalistic way):
"GUILTY AS CHARGED!" -Directly to every perp in our government.
Whatever, I hardly
Whatever, I hardly understood a word you wrote. Either way "no planes" has been debunked a billion times, and each time it was debunked with ease. Simply because its not very hard to prove something that's impossible wrong. Anyone pushing that disinfo doesn’t know what 911 truth is, or what 911 sceptics are. People punishing that crap are either paid to do so, or are classical kooky "Conspiracy Theorists". Something which a real 911 Sceptic is certainly not! Go away please.
DailyKos article
OT: I'm thinking of posting a diary on DailyKos about the Washington Post article on the related poll. All suggestions would be welcome. And what might be the best time to post a diary so that a maximum number of people see it?
on the related poll => and
on the related poll => and the related poll
I'''m astonished that
I'''m astonished that "no-planers" -- idiots and agents who only disrupt -- have not been banned from this forum.
On the one hand I understand that new research is often ridiculed, so the tendency is to tolerate new theories; I also understaqnd that truthers are democratic humanist spiritual types who don't like to shut the door on anyone -- but if you look at "primitive" societies (the most successful of our socieites) the key to their success is (a) power to the people and (b) the right to banish.
Oftentimes, the banishment corrects the problem: the marginalized individual places social contact far and above whatever petty grievance they had. By allowing these goofy crazy wacky imbecilic and/or agent no-planers to piss in our pool, we only encourage them.
Notice that the WP article ENDED WITH THE NO-PLANES THEORY. THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE WILL REMEMBER.
The WP is a highly sophisticated propaganda organ. The wizards at the CIA have studied the way our brains function. They know that they must acknowledge 911 truth in order to retain any credbility whatsoever, so they engaged in a cunning ploy: they let the truth slip whlie simultaneously associating it with quackery. If you look at the history of Tabloids, you'll find something interesting: the founder of the National Enquirer was a "former" CIA agent. Sort of like Shayler.
No-planers should be treated like advocates of the official story. In fact they may be more harmful to our efforts than advocates of the official story.
We all knew that at some point disinfo would rear it's ugly head. Well here it is. What are we to do about it?
My opnion is that no-planers should be banned from 911 truth forums.
If they present some actual evidence in support of their theories and stop attacking legimate researchers they can be welcomed back with open arms.
Couldn’t have said it
Couldn’t have said it better, thank you!!
Yes, 9/11 Truth loses
Yes, 9/11 Truth loses nothing and gains much by banning No Planers from this forum.
Please refrain
from jumping down my throat on this. I empathize deeply with the angst you feel over the presence of No-Planers here. And I am convinced that one of the newer ones is pernicious disinfo.
The TV Fakery people are making a huge mistake by not clearly, publically separating this theory from the NPT. There ARE some funky videos out there. Video IS undoubtedly manipulated by media outlets. That fact IS significant, because people need to start making allowances in their analysis of world events for the presence of video information which is false.
However, I also believe that there is video evidence of plane impacts which is likely NOT false. Moreover, the existence of fake videos in no way supports the NPT thesis in and of itself. There is persuasive eyewitness testimony that planes did hit the Towers -- only the absence of this evidence coupled with the absence of any video that could not be demonstrated to be faked would tend to support a theory that the event was something other than plane impact.
At this point, the TV Fakery theory itself doesn't trouble me. It's also just about the last thing related to 9/11 that I would ever discuss with anyone I was trying to persuade of any aspect of 9/11 truth. The fact that people like Nico want to conflate it with the NPT troubles me tremendously. The three-way conflation of TV Fakery, NPT, and ad hominem attacks on Steven Jones is an obvious red flag indicating disinfo.
The thing that started to bother me, though, was that the anti-NPT rhetoric here could have come out of the very same mold that produced Daily Kos policy on 9/11 and the kind of comments that follow any 9/11 post there. They're angst-filled over there, too -- they think that gettings Dems elected will fix things, and that 9/11 truth is something that will completely thwart their efforts and therefore must be banned. I hate that thinking over there, and while I'm a hell of a lot more sympathetic with the angst that posters like DBLS and simuvac feel than with any Kosoid (because I respect both of you), it can't help but bother me over here, too.
I agree
that we should NOT ban the no-planers. Your points are all good ones casseia. The way I have dealt with the no-planers is either to ignore them or to marginalize them, here and on other 911 boards. Rather than engaging with them, I'll look at what they have to say (up to a point) and if there's ANY merit and I have something useful to add, then I'll speak. We need to learn to put them in their place, while allowing them access.
I understand the rationale for banning the no-planers. Indeed, I made a case above about why they're polluting the truth movement, BUT they only pollute if we let them. Does that make sense? I think no-planers should only be banned for disruptive behavior, not for points of view. There's a difference.
The idea of "TV fakery" is
The idea of "TV fakery" is quite separate from the idea of "no-planes", as you remark. Curiously, Nico and other no-brainers are not anxious to make this distinction.
Additionally, media outlets are obviously controlled by the corporate-state nexus; CNN revealed itself as a fraud during the Serbian "war". So there’s no argument there.
However, there is a very large difference between video morphology, Mockingbird, remote control and "no planes".
"No planes" requires a conspiracy so vast and so absurd that it's simply not believable. Even if Nico and co. had real evidence, which they don’t.
At the very least, these no-plane quacks should argue that the "missile" that hit the WTC acted in the manner of a plane -- to a T> It RESEMBLED A PLANE EXACTLY. Still, they don't bother.
Why bother at all?
-- Disinfo.
My opinion is that the "no-plane" theory is obvious disinfo.
If it was just a few low-iq or highly suggestible types taking up the rear it would be no problem. But there are semi-educated types (who obviously haven’t studied videography or physics) arguing this craziness. I suspect that there are a few Mockingbirds mixed in as well.
They should all be shunned and banned.
my new diary on DailyKos
Ok, here's my new diary on DailyKos:
Washington Post even-handed on 9/11 Truth, addresses Cheney's role
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/9/181621/3488
Go vote. :-)
WaPo in context
Notice that the WP article ENDED WITH THE NO-PLANES THEORY. THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE WILL REMEMBER.
I tend to agree with your general assertion Danse, and not to defend the Washington Post, but I do think they at least put the no-planers in correct context. If they hadn't, then I would have characterized the article as a hit piece, which it wasn't. Yes, ending with the no-plane theory (or even including it at all) was very likely a psychological ploy by the author, so they lost points with me.... but, still, the article wasn't terribly biased as all previous Post articles have been. Maybe I'm just gobbling up crumbs from the mainstream media -- I hope that's not the case!
What the article said:
Truth movement veterans distance themselves from Haupt, who has a bit of a temper. But Reynolds, the former Labor Department economist, also is a "no-planer."
"There were no planes, there were no hijackers," Reynolds insists. "I know, I know, I'm out of the mainstream, but that's the way it is."
But what about all those New Yorkers who saw airplanes hitting the twin towers? A chuckle rumbles down the phone line. "I don't believe anyone in Lower Manhattan," he says. "You hire three dozen Actors' Equity dudes and they'll say anything."
Some days the 9/11 truth movement resembles an Italian coalition government -- dissolution is a certainty. Honegger and Griffin believe bombs brought down the twin towers but have little truck with make-believe planes.
the hearsay author
CT lemmings seem to preach his hearsay as facts
"was 9/11 an inside job" he asked the question and then gives you hearsay; will you buy his book?
capitalism has many faces-Griffin's is one of the many snake oil salesmen, selling you what you want, enjoy.
Guess he is writting off his trip as business, or is he a tax free church ?
Capitalism -- or the "right"
Capitalism -- or the "right" to siphon off the fruits of other people's labor -- as well as "statism" -- the theory that we need Big Brother -- is precisely what caused 911 in the first place. Over time, state capitalism can't help but become imperialist -- it's as natural as gravity. Artificial hierarchies allow top-dogs to conspire against "lesser" beings, aka thier subjects. It's all rather obvious. 911 was a false flag operation. False flags are extremely common in state capitalist societies. A real "free market' (anarchism) would not permit wage slavery or statist institutions that allow a criminal clique to rule over the mass majority. The future is anarchy.
Yeh but what about his
Yeh but what about his points? Can you refute his points for me? Thanks!
The 9/11 Commission Report: A 571-Page Lie
by Dr. David Ray Griffin
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20050523112738404
"No-planes" is indeed disinfo
"No-planes" is indeed disinfo.
The beauty of it is that it draws in people with low IQs, in other words, the majority of the population.
By selectively presenting grainy videos with artifacts, the no-plane agents make their "case" to the imbecile majority. Very few people have studied videography or physics, so even some intelligent people get sucked in.
Those who haven't studied 911, meanwhile, rightly laugh. From this point on, they associate "911 conspiracy theories" with "no planes". The WP article was pure genius.
As I mentioned earlier, tabloids were actually created by the CIA. Tabloids allow "conspiracies" to be mixed in with silly stuff like "bat boy found in cave".
It's a beatiful ploy, and the astonishing thing as is that 911 forums are not only tolerating "no-planes" but encouraging it.
People can get banned for using foul language, but you can spin your "no-planes" nonsense all day long with impunity.
911 truther = OUTSIDER
I just realised sth..
In the real world, the most useful part of the 911 psyop
is the fact that
You cannot be a 911-truther and work in a position where you decide anything
it is mutually exclusive.
Maybe yous are blind to the ramifications.
Also, the reason why Chomsky ZMAG et al are aprehensive about
being 911 truthers is that they also, would have to admit that THEY HAVE BEEN HAD FOR GOOD. For a lefty this is much
harder to stomach.
U2, I'm also a 'lefty". I
U2, I'm also a 'lefty". I love Chomsky and Zinn and Roy. I hate Marx and Trotsky and Lenin. I realize 'liberals" are fake. I love Alex Jones except when it comes to solutions. I'm an anarchist who believes in a real 'free market" without wage slavery or the state. I'm not religious, but I believe in God.
Don't give up. Michael Parenti just posted a truth article on his home page.
Any prominent personality in a hierarchical society will have an inflated sense of ego; Chomsky and co. think they will lose their credibility if they speak out. Cockburn is a zealout; he knows the truth but he's decided its against Counterpunch's image, so he lashed out. He's made a fool of himself and he knows it.
The truth will prevail, and along with it, the people. New "leftists" (I don't like using the term) like Chussodovsky, DRG and Peter Dale Scott are puting the new paradigm in perspective. New blood will replace Chomsky,. realizing that he was right on most issues but wrong on a few others.
The future belongs to the people.
link for the Parenti
link for the Parenti article?
Parrenti didn't write an
Parrenti didn't write an article on 911 truth, just posted a link on his home page that the majority ain't buyin' the offiicial story. Neither does he. He's openly stated that he thinks the official story is a fruad. Zinn has said that "it may well have been an inside job". So we're making progress. Both Zinn and Parenti have a way with words so hopefully they will write articles on the subject in the near future. I really like Chris Floyd and Mickey Z -- there's a couple of "leftists" who don't take marching orders from Chomsky.
Pentagon was derelict -- built over Hell's Bottom
"Every day I remember, simply because I work here near the point of penetration," said Army Col. Henry Huntley.
Huntley was in the Army Operation Center when American Flight 77, a Boeing 757, appeared out of the sky, clipped a highway light post, bounced off the Pentagon's lawn, slammed at 530 mph through the building's thin limestone veneer and plowed on amid geysers of exploding fuel and shards of red-hot metal and glass.
......
The physical rebuilding of the Pentagon, on the other hand, won't be finished until 2011. It, too, was long overdue.
Completed in 1943 on the former site of a pickle factory and a vibrant slum known as Hell's Bottom, the Pentagon on Sept. 11 was essentially a derelict.
Its basement was sinking into mire. Its electrical system and fire protection had been in violation of codes since 1953. Lead-paint walls and ceilings were crammed with 10,000 tons of asbestos.
In the early '90s, a fire broke out in the basement, but when the Arlington County Fire Department hooked up its hoses, the Pentagon's pipes burst from the unaccustomed pressure and the basement filled with 9 million gallons of water, nearly drowning the Air Force Operations Center at the very moment it was directing the first strikes of Desert Storm.
After the Sept. 11 attack, Pentagon engineers pondered whether to just close the Pentagon and build office space elsewhere. They abandoned the idea because of the staggering cost of environmental clean-up.
http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/news/local/15476210.htm
I think we all realize the
I think we all realize the left/right thing is bullshit. the questin is: what are we gonna replace it with?
Chomsky does indeed have a lot of good insights, but most of them are stolen (as he admits) from previous thinkers like Rocker, Tolstoy, Lao Tzu and Christ.
I love AJ but simply "respecting the bill of rights" won't cut it. Elites have NEVER respected the bill of rights, including the people who wrote it!
We need to get rid -- not only of the parastic bankers and the Bilderbergs -- but of the entire concept that a specialized minority has the right to rule all of us. Be it commie, fascist, or Republicrat.
Actually, it may not matter much whether you agree; Latin America is currently engaging in a massive "restructuring project" whereby regular people get to decide what happens for themselves. Eventually, we'll emulate their new social structures, even if it takes a lot of gun violence to get there!
The word "anarchy" is a
The word "anarchy" is a weapon. When state capitalism breaks down and massive violence results, it's "anarchy".
Real anarchism would require a gradual breaking down of state institutions, as well as gradual building up of sexy organic communites built around democracy and human need. Actually, this is our natural social form, evidenced by 99% of human history.
The "rule of law" has NEVER worked for the people we most need to abide. Witness Shakespearre and spider webs. Rather it has functioned as a classist tool to put a lot of poor people in prison and dumb down the population for further fleecing.
Anarchism is an awseome idea, perhps the best idea: the probem is that we're already so far down the tube that it may be impossible to climb back up.
9/11: Press for Truth VIDEO
Now is the time people. We MUST get 9/11: Press for truth video on Google video out to as MANY people as we can in the days leading up to 9/11.
Please flood as many message boards and e-mail address as you possible can.
WE MUST WAKE PEOPLE UP. This video can WAKE up people that won’t look at 9/11. Why? Because, this isn’t theories and this isn’t conspiracy, this is FACTS about 9/11.
We need to start with the FACTS and move into a REAL independent commission. This is painful to do (all over again.) but this needs to happen, it MUST have subpoena powers.
Please do this for this movement and this country!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1016720641536424083&q=press+for...