The Great 9/11-Truth Debate: A Call to Progressives and Anti-war Activists

The Great 9/11 Truth Debate - Calling all Progressives and Anti-war activists to partake in a debate with members of the 9/11 Truth Movement over the importance of learning the truth about 9/11.

Spread the word. Think 9/11 Truth is not as important as your cause? State your case here, but everyone, please keep it civil:

c'mon everybody!

alotta people just hate Bush, (and so do all of us 911 truthers) and think hes impeachable for an illegal unprovoked war on Iraq ,wiretapping ,torture,ect.....and those who think so are correct but ......Bush is guilty for so much more.... so very much more!

c'mon everybody!

alotta people just hate Bush, (and so do all of us 911 truthers) and think hes impeachable for an illegal unprovoked war on Iraq ,wiretapping ,torture,ect.....and those who think so are correct but ......Bush is guilty for so much more.... so very much more!

911 truth an important cause

There are operative practicalities perhaps we should keep in mind. IMHO someone very high in government knows a lot about this, but I don't need to nor can I name any names. We know it was controlled demolition, we know the string of coincidences is too long and improbable to even be possible.
We know that it is imperative we are successful in calling a quorum to investigate responsibly. The call needs to be broadcst by responsible, temperate and and objective people to responsible, temperate and objective people.

Aaron Russo Talks About WTC 7 On Mancow Radio Show

Aaron Russo got into it with Mancow for a good little bit about WTC7.

Listen here...

Russo comes on to the show at the 1 hour and 45 minute mark.

Here is Aaron Russo's website.

America: Freedom to Fascism


Who the hell is this Mancow jerk? There is no way he would touch WTC7 when Russo mentioned it. Kept changing the subject. Guys like Mancow make me sick. He also really slams Chavez for his remarks about Bushfraud. He calls his show "the morning madhouse", it sure is. Mancow's brother calls in. He is worse than Mancow. I don't know how Russo stood it. I would have blown it. I can't stand bullshit and pure stupidity.

Never heard of his show

Never heard of his show before. Sound like a Stern-wannabe. Not that I like Stern, but he definitely gives me that vibes. Very arrogant indeed.

It is really sad when

It is really sad when ignorance people stand strong with their points and refuse to have an intelligent conversation. For me, it was tough to listen.


Mancow totally pussed out on the WTC7 issue when confronted by Russo. I love how Russo forced him to confront the issue despite his attempts to try and change the conversation. First it was "I have no time to discuss WTC7" then all of a sudden he has time to discuss the Pentagon being hit. When Russo brought him back to WTC7 he dodged it again... eventually taking a call from a listener and going on to discuss chip implantation at length.

WTC7 is the elephant in the living room that nobody wants to confront. This is why we need to hammer, hammer, hammer WTC7 all the way to kingdom come!

The truth shall set you free!!!!

thanks Aaron

kudos to Aaron Russo.
A true American.

I liked what he said about America being a constitutional republic where every one is assured of their right to pursue happiness etc.
Our rights are not controlled by the vote of the majority.
Let's say there are three voters: two are foxes and one is a hen.
We are not a country where the foxes can vote to violate the hen's rights under the constitution.
Our rights should be safe from the tyranny of the majority. This is what America is about.
The foxes can't say well let's eat the hen or lets take away this right from the hen.
I thought this was well said.

I thought this Mancow guy was quite incapable of allowing anything beyond his comfort level to be said by Aaron.
Mancow's brother was disgusting. A truly non critically thinking loudmouth. Wow, I hope there is not too many like him.

I sure like Aaron being on our side. He is quite a fighter who keeps cool when the attacks are coming from everyside, like on this audio.

Aaron stuck to what he knew. He asked them to explain the wtc 7 collapse. They did everything to distract him from this question but kept coming back to it. This is a good lesson on how to debate people.

Aaron kept saying he heard the Silverstein tape where Silversteing said to "pull it".
And Mancow would react each time Aaron said this with a loud "But I have not seen or heard of such a tape".
Almost, like he was told not to get into WTC 7.

JFK doodled "9-11" in a circle, then underlined...

JFK doodled "9-11" in a circle, then underlined..."conspiracy" near it:

"President Kennedy, known for separating his life into compartments, would enclose words and numbers inside circles and boxes. Events long after his death give one doodle an unintended chill. A small circle with the numbers "9-11" contained within. Just to the lower left on the page, the word "conspiracy" is underlined."

JFK also refused to sign "Operations Northwoods"

JFK also refused to sign "Operation Northwoods", fired the generals who proposed it, and then was murdered under extremely suspicious circumstances.

Now it's discovered that JFK doodled "9-11", circled it, and wrote "conspiracy" next to it & underlined it. Rather prophetic, indeed!

Sucks there's no copy

Sucks there's no copy of the photo


"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum." -Noam Chomsky

Showing some solidarity with the Chomskies here. That one hit the nail on the head! Dunno if it's already in there, but it would make a good input for that random-quote-thingie over to the left.

Chomsky Ought to Know

Chomsky ought to know -- he's been using this same tactic as a left gatekeeper who has consistently denied 9/11.

Chomsky would indeed know.

Chomsky would indeed know. nobody limits debate like that guy. hes very good at directing his fans away from things like assassinations and black ops. in Noams world, events like false flags dont exist and the killing of a president is "unimportant".


there are much bigger fish to go after and fry here than Choamsky. most progressives barely acknowledge his existence and try to distance themselves from him. nobody knew who he was until his book got plugged by Chavez which is rather ironic when one thinks about it.

9/11 truth impossible?

There are a number of reasons why the truth may never be acknowleged. While only a few may have made the events of this fateful day to occurr, many seem to have been made complicit.

The number of people now involved in the denial of the truth of what occurred is very great and are heavily concentrated in positions of authority. The resistence of these people to even consider an alternative reality to that which they desparately cling to actually transforms their denial into a direct complicitness. This horrendous trap of denial constitutes a more serious crime every moment it continues. Thus so are good people in positions of authority(politicians, media, law enfocement) caught up in the coverup of the most serious type of crime imaginable.

Herein lies the maniacal evil genius of the plot.

It is doubtful that anybody can imagine, under these circumstances, what a just outcome might look like since it involves so many who are considered to be the creme of U.S. society. How can the guilty prosecute the guilty.

I'm not a pessimist generally but this thing may be over.

More on this later......


If we won't threaten to immediately burn them at the stake, what's to keep them from switching sides? We know many people cover the OCT because of pressure, not conviction.

Now's not the time for pessimism.

The perpetrators are not done yet

As they have said, while you study them they will act again to make the investigators impotent. Continued and accelerating war activities distract and suspend official investigations. If the "october surprise" is enacted it will derail the truth movement.

This is not pessimism. This is a realistic assessment. An effective antiwar movement may be one hope.

The fact that certain types of individuals(New York police and Fire dept. personnel) with great moral authority have not come forward is extremely serious and cannot be understated. Time is growing short and these types of individuals must come forward. Only a few are well placed to carry the ring of truth.


I am also very disappointed that more people who know what happened on 9/11 have not stepped up. All I can figure is fear for themselves and their families. Perhaps if and when Hugo Chavez has a 9/11hearing as Walters and Rodriquez want then insiders will talk. It should be interesting how this plays out. Things change fast when someone with great credibility speaks up. Even the media can't ignore it then. Speaking of the media, I hold them just as responsible as the people who actively brought us 9/11. In my mind they are just as guilty of high treason and mass murder as Cheney and his boys.


was and remains utterly complicit, and without shame.

To mandrake

I just read your bio.....Welcome to the club. I have had the same problem you are having. I talk to people about 9/11 and they just clam up. It seems it is too painfull for them to handle. "Forget 9/11, lets talk football." I get stuff like that all the time. I get so pissed-off. Have we become a Nation of cowards?

Never lose hope

They are powerful, but they are not omnipotent. History shows us that persistant resistance HAS worked in many cases, and it can work for us too.

the total answer to

the total answer to everything that the real anti war movement desires
lie in 911truth---

we might not just end the iraq war---but we might leave such a great impression that it ends up ending all war for all time!!

Red Alert! Be Pragmatic In Your Approach

Intellectual debates about Chomsky and other minutae only obscures where the real focus of peoples' energies should be concentrated; that is to identify and leverage the engagement of individuals who have the moral authority to reverse the current denial of the truth of 9/11 in the public forum.

I just viewed DRG in Copenhagen and the last 5 minutes of his talk only affirms what I say. He directly suggests that hope for enlightenment in the U.S.A. is not going to happen.

Strategies for identifying and motivating persons with the requisite moral authority to turn the tide must be discussed and implemented.

Watch the last part of DRG in copenhagen and then act.

Challenge to Mainstream

Challenge to Mainstream Journalists: Dare to really investigate 9/11

Alan Homcy | September 24 2006

Do you remember Woodward and Bernstein? How about Murrow, Biko? Let me know if any of these ring a bell. Do you remember those lofty ideals you proudly carried when you entered your chosen profession? Do you recall when you were not afraid to investigate, to ask hard questions and ferret out the truth, to see beyond your paycheck? Do you remember when you couldn’t care less what you were labeled, as long as you doggedly pursued the truth? Do you have any sense of purpose left? Can you still smell a story?

I dare you to tackle 9/11. Come on. Too scared of losing your job? Reputation, prestige, access? Stossel, Palast, Olbermann?? What the hell are you so afraid of? You want fame, an eternal legacy? You want the ultimate story? It’s right in front of your nose. It’s currently being written by on a shoestring by Alex Jones, David Ray Griffin, Daniel Hopsicker and other heroes who have the guts to risk everything for the sake of truth, for our future as a nation.

I'm really sry everyone,

I'm really sry everyone, that debate is getting crashed by asshole trolls throwing insults and diluting everything with completely inappropriate bullshit "socialist ideology". It was going well initially, but it looks like it's not going to work in real life, a bit like "socialism" lol. It might just go back to Us vs Godfather because at least he’s got half a brain.

To DemBruceLee kapitalist fascist amerikan beast

Who the hell is Dem Bruce Lee? You don't even know the difference between socialism and capitalism, and the causes and effects of terrorirst wars, poverty, and why the capitalist system itself is the main cause of this war. It seems to me that you are illiterate like most american voters. Keep deffending your usamerican terrorism, and I will keep deffending Socialism alternative (the only cure for American Corporate Satanic Capitalism which will destroy the USA. Maybe the only way Corporate American Satanic system could learn a lesson is when the US capitalist system collapses and people will have to eat grass with dead cats. Take care and don't forget to eat the brown acid :-)

We do not

have time to reform our system of government at this time since we expending all our energies just preventing it from becoming a fascist state! We will do well to preserve what we had just 6 years ago! Stop ranting. I agree, it isn't helpful to focus on revamping our socio-political system at this time!

"American Corporate Satanic

"American Corporate Satanic Capitalism which will destroy the USA. Maybe the only way Corporate American Satanic system could learn a lesson is when the US capitalist system collapses and people will have to eat grass with dead cats."

Holy crap this guy is crazy. Corporate American Satanic System. lol. Who the hell are you Juan Carlos Cruz? This is a 9/11 Truth website created by AMERICANS. Not a socialist or communist one. Dont come on here and attack veteran 9/11 Truthers like DemBruceLeeStyles. And don't come on here and attack my country either. Again this is not an anti-capitalist website. IT IS A 9/11 TRUTH WEBSITE!! So if you would like to contribute to our website, do so in a mature respectful way. Don't you forget we're here because we love our country very deeply and don't appreciate your comments.

i agree. Juan, dont use such

i agree. Juan, dont use such a broad brush to paint "Americans". there are many of us with different views and levels of awareness. just like anywhere else. besides, i dont even think DBLS is american. isnt he british? and hes one hell of a guy, working hard all the time to spread 9/11 awareness. his jab on socialism was strange, i agree, but you didnt need to attack the guy.

^Propz you guys! And Chris I

^Propz you guys! And Chris I was semi joking about Socialism, it's an old saying that in real life it doesn’t work. But still spaming a debate that's got nothing to do with it isn’t acceptable. Anyway man come and join in, it's your forte dude "showing Chomsky groupies what's up" lol;.

911-truth will *not* change USA, only socialism can

911-truth will *not* change USA, only socialism can. Only a workers mass movement moving to democratize the USA will be able to change the USA like the Bolivarian Revolution is doing. Most people in this site are dumb sheep, part of the USA machinery. The capitalists will stay in power wether the Democratic or any other party governs the USA. they will keep their imperialist wars, and inside fake terror, because the sole cause of imperialist wars and terrorists are the accumulation of money in the US-oligarchies (Oil, military, banks etc) so wether the dumb democratic or the republican party rules the USA the USA will continue on its path to collapse economically because the capitalist system is not sustainable, it has major contradictions, and its worst contradiction is that capitalist system can destroy this planet

then go do it

We're working on our stuff here... don't you have something you should be doing?

You are all dumb: Socialism is a model not a nation

Hey dumb people, let me teach you some things: Socialism is an economic system, it's not a country. When USA will be socialist the USA will continue to be USA

The capitalist egocentrism of americans will destroy USA

The capitalist egocentrism of americans will destroy USA

This was posted in the

This was posted in the previous thread on this subject:

I’m gonna chime in here on behalf of GOS, not because I agree with his position on 911 – I think 911 truth can and will be a powerful instrument for change – but because I share a different political viewpoint than most of the members of this forum.

“Talks about poverty struggles in the world but never mentions the Federal Reserve and The Big Central Banks which have manipulated the economic/political systems of many nations.”

There’s a line in “Freedom to Fascism” where the filmmaker claims that America was “free” before the founding of the income Tax and the Fed. This would be humorous if it wasn’t (apparently) taken seriously by so many paleoconservatives.

In fact, in the late 19th C (before the FED) child labor was common. The Pinkerton Detective Agency and other private militias would murder and maim women and children for attempting to unionize. In some factories, people couldn’t even speak to one another without being penalized and their wages garnished. For large swathes of the population, slavery was the norm.

And I’m talking about white people. I won’t even bother talking about the massive injustices suffered by blacks, Native Americans and other minorities – they are already well known.

The American labor movement is a history of brutal violence.

These massive injustices were not corrected by “The Constitution” but by massive organizing and rebellion by anarchists and socialists, who eventually forced legislators to adopt humane labor policies. In fact, it was only by rebelling against the spirit of the constitution that regular people achieved elementary rights. Most of these movements were eventually wiped out, nevertheless, by continued repression.

The Constitution – so beloved by 911-truthers – was a coup detat. It was opposed by the majority of the population at the time and established a strong central government which continues to this day. The opinions of Madison, Jefferson and others strongly correspond with the opinions of modern day elites. The famous report by the Trilateral commission condemning the “excess of democracy” which took place during the 60’s (during which more rights were won) strongly corresponds with the opinions of Madison and other super-rich slaveholders at the time of the Constitutional junta.

The elites who drafted the constitution had nothing but contempt for the “common” man.

“Whenever “the people” do make demands and become active, it is always a crisis for elites. The demands of the people at the time of the convention were described as “excess democracy” by Elbridge Gerry and “rampant democracy” by James Madison. We shall note in Chapter 5 that after a number of previously disaffected groups such as blacks, students, women, Chicanos, and Native Americans became politically active during the 1960s and 1970s, corporate elites referred to the fuller participation among disadvantaged constituencies as a form of “distemper” and a “crisis of democracy.” Elites, quite consistent with the values of the Framers, have always perceived the active political engagement of people without property as a crisis. John Quincy Adams, in a bit of understatement, reminds us that the Framers did not profess to be “slavish adorers of our sovereign lords the people.”17”

Chomsky talks about this kind of stuff. Alex Jones tries to gloss it over.

Indeed, the Patriot Act is pretty tame compared to the kind of measures the “Founding Fathers” supported – “crimes in thought but not in deed”, for instance (T. Jefferson).

It would actually be far easier for me to accept the idea that Alex Jones is an “agent” (which I don’t) than it would be Chomsky. Because Jones demands that people focus on the shadow (secret socities, bilderbergs etc.) instead of the substance. The substance is not as exciting or sensational as the shadow, but if we’re ever gonna create a humane society we will not do so by SIMPLY ‘defending the constitution”. The Bill of Rights (added later )is a fine thing and worth defending, but we must also question the “right” of elites to control our affairs, the “right” of some people to own more capital than entire countries, the morality of “wage slavery”, the entire concept of “representative democracy” (as opposed to delegation), the entire idea of the state.

Apparently, some truthers aren’t ready for these concepts, so they cling to simplistic “solutions” such as provided by Alex Jones, but there will come a time when everything you believe will be cast into doubt, and at that point, you may want to pick up a book by Noam Chomsky.

When I emailed Michael Parenti, he openly acknowledged that he thinks the OFT about 911 is a fraud, yet he also said: "It's nice to know we can have a division of labor". In other words, some people can conentrate on 911 truth, some people can concentrate on (what I consider) other matters.

I think we have to stop looking for people to idolize or condemn as "agents". We can appreciate Alex Jones' contributions, we can appreciate Chomsky's contributions, we can take from each what we consider right and just and reject what we consider false.

I'd like it if Chomsky acknowledged 911 truth, I"d like it if Alex Jones acknowledged the role of anarchists and socialists in creating many of the liberties Americans enjoy today, but if it doesn't happen, I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. Ultimately, we don't need any "leaders" to tell us what to do (including the "Fathers") We can decide for ourselves.

As for "socialism" and

As for "socialism" and "capitalism" and "free market", these terms have lost all meaning.

To a free-market paleoconservative, "socialism" = stalinism or Bolsevism or Maoist China. To a socialist, "free market" is akin to Monsanto corporation forcing terminator seeds on Indian farmers.

None of the above are cognizant of the Mbuti pgymies or the !Kung or the C.N.T. in revolutionary Spain.

My personal opinion (like most progressives) is that communism (as traditionally defined) is horrendous, just as capitalism (as traditionally defined) is horrendous. Liberalism is a lame attempt to plug holes in the dam about to burst.

We can maintain personal property, we can have public ownership of resources (life forests and factories), we can eliminate wage-slavery, we can replace "representative" democracy with direct democracy via delegation and concensus decision making; we can have real autonomy by devolving power to the local level and federating horizonataly; we can replace laws with lenes and more organic (life-like) social codes of conduct, which have proven more effective anyway and elimante the need for beuracratic and tyrannical istitutions.

Many 911 truthers are scared to death of democracy. The "two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner" is case in point; a better metaphor for democracy (at least, DIRECT democracy) would be keeping the wolf on a leesh so the sheep can live peacefully. Constitutions are designed so elites or "that better class" of people can control us. The constitutional junta in the US was not designed to set up a system of "liberty" but to protect ultra-rich slaveholders from the majority of the population. It was launched in response to Shay's Rebellion, which scared the shit of the founding slaveholders. Barely was the ink dry on the (selectively enforced) bill of rights before the "fathers" starting declaring themselves above the law. As then, so today.

So long as there are vast disparities in wealth, so long as politicians and corporations lord over us, the "rule of law" is meaningless. This should be obvious by now.

The American Constitution of 1787 was explicitly designed to prevent the emergence of an internally sovereign and accountable political power structure. James Madison quite properly referred to it as “our feudal constitution.”
- Walter Dean Burnham

It is interesting to note that our own complaints of an “imperial presidency,” that we feel powerless and that our votes do not count, that the “military-industrial complex” has too much power, that government seems distant and far away, or that corporations seem to dominate all aspects of our lives echo the complaints heard 200 years ago. It is not surprising. After all, it is still the same system, and in so many important respects the debate surrounding the adopting of the Constitution underlies contemporary class and racial divisions as well as debates over militarism, the environment, secret governments, and the spiritual well-being of our country.


And patriarchy and white privilege were in place long before the constitution.

This Is Not A Socialist Website!!

Why are you here?. I think you guys are lost. This is not a communist or socialist website. So don't come on here and insult us and insult our country because its not a socialist one and because we don't agree with you. I am a capatalist and I will always be one. I love my country very much and I am extremely offended by socialists coming on here and insulting it. Yes there are problems that stem from capatalism, just like there are problems that stem from socialism. These problems are the result of Human Beings. Humans can be corrupt, evil, greedy, etc. . And when you have a bunch of individuals running a government there will be a percentage of those individuals who are corrupt. I love my country and the constitution of my country that in theory protects my rights as a citizen. I have the freedom to start a business if I so chose. Socialism would not allow that. Thereby limiting a freedom which American citizens enjoy. So you won't have any luck trying to convince a bunch of people on this website, who love freedom, that limiting their freedom would be a beneficial course of action. And you certainly won't do it by insulting us and our country. AGAIN, THIS IS NOT A SOCIALIST WEBSITE. IF YOU WANT TO DEBATE SOCIALISM VS. CAPATALISM GO ON CRAIGSLIST OR SOMEWHERE ELSE! IF YOU WANT TO DISCUSS 9/11 YOUR IN THE RIGHT PLACE, BUT APPARENTLY YOU DON'T.


I have viewed many documentaries, read many reports and emails reguarding 911 and all the information available online, in newspapers and periodicals. I dont have answers for a lot of the questions posed by 911 sites, nor can I explain reports by EMTs, first responders, firemen and police on the scene in NY on that tragic day. That said, I am of the opinion that the real story is not in what this administration has done but what it decided not to do. Again, though the squibs, the way the buildings fell, the reports of explosions below impact points and the unexplainable collapse of WTC 7 seems to be part of valid arguments that support government involvment in the attack, but it seems to me that all the administration really had to do to be culpable is nothing. This would be the easiest "conspiracy" to prove in my opinion.