Follow Up to Recent Letter by Sergeant Lauro "LJ" Chavez, 9/11 Whistle Blower

Last Friday we covered a story regarding Sergeant Lauro "LJ" Chavez, a whistle blower whose letter was posted on the Veterans for 9/11 Truth website. At the time we posted the story as we found it, and thankfully Alex Jones followed up with an interview with LJ on his show today.

You can find the radio archive of the show at (look under radio / Alex Jones Radio Archive / 2006 / September / 25). The segment with LJ starts about 22 minutes in.

Check it out, and post some comments!

Update: We have archived this MP3 on here:

Direct Download:


Sgt. Chavez

I listened to the interview and had a little trouble following his train of thought since he talked kind of fast. However, he sounded very sincere and I hope someone in the mainstream media allows him to tell his story.


I just spotted this on Carol's blog.

"September 25, 2006

Last night I was up til 1 am at the great 9-11 and American Empire event in Berkeley. Unfortunately, I didn't get enough sleep, and I am very tired so I'm going to be very succinct. I spoke with Lauro Chavez, and I think he is genuine, and hope to get him out for an event this October, but still need to secure a venue. I was able to review 9-11 Mysteries and it is excellent. The filmmaker is also willing to come out for a screening. I got clips from NBC and ABC from the Cheney Protest and Premiere of 9/11 Press for Truth... very disappointing and depressing, now I remember why I stopped watching TV. They didn't include what I said about Cheney's actions on 9/11 or the wargames after all... We have a very, very, long way to go... one of the clips had Boxer on saying we should go after Bin Laden, selling the bogus war on terror... like the Dems would do it better... " If Carol thinks he is genuine that is good enough for me. I trust her judgement.

Seargent Chavez

Once again, this is disinfo.

Once again, this is disinfo. All these guys do is call names and link to SLC, which is a very poor piece of work with emotional(I.E. not scientific) rhetoric about a very flawed film made by amateurs who were just waiting to be attacked. All I need to know about who is truly intelligent and who is not, is simply the video footage. The only thing you guys make is SLC, which just puts subtitles on Loose Change. People in the truth movement make well-made original films with great low budget production values, atmospheric music, and editing. With this alone, I can tell that the average truther is higher in IQ than a so called debunker. I also think the average truther has a lot more motivation, because debunkers are inherently lazy slobs. That's why they don't have the information or independent thinking to begin with. Most of these guys are Americans with full public school education, and I mean no disrespect to any public school educated American truthers, but it's a system made to create these zombies. My mind rejected it for the couple years in which I had no choice but to enroll.

Might I also ask what these great debunkers are doing to help the families and the first responders? Let me answer that for you...ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

These guys prey on those who will hang on to any BS disinfo that will send them back to their created world of parties and ball games. They're scumbags.

Your words are true fellow

Your words are true fellow truther

You really think so? Answer these questions...

> Once again, this is disinfo. All these guys do is call names and link to SLC

Some questions for you:

* if SGT Chavez really DID go to Afghanistan, why does his DD214 show NO overseas duty, and NO awards/ribbons/citations for his "combat" experience in Afghanistan, even the "theatre" citations that EVERYONE gets merely for showing up?
* Why does he claim to fly into Kabul Airport on a C-5 three whole WEEKS before the Taliban was driven out of the area, and at least 2 months before the airport was open for service?
* He claims he flew into a field "under fire" in a C-5, which is laughable, as these are big, expensive vunerable cargo aircraft used for strategic airlift and kept well away from the front lines of operations.
* He claims that he could see that the C-5 was coming "under fire" when he was in a windowless passenger compartment in a plane big enough that he would neither SEE nor FEEL anything that didn't cause significant enough damage to possibly bring down the plane. As it is, there don't appear to be any records of C-5s damaged by hostile fire in or near Kabul, or anywhere else in Afghanistan.
* He claims 8 months in combat even though his MOS is essentially that of an IT technician.
* He claims to have spent time guarding some oil pipeline that to this day doesn't even exist.
* His training record claims some type of special forces school but not the prerequisities ("jump school", et. al.) needed to get there.

> Might I also ask what these great debunkers are doing to help the families and the first responders? Let me answer that for you...ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

Actually, we're doing a lot to help these people. For starters, we're exposing the types of paranoid kooks and idiots who are emotionally invested in propagating conspiratorialist CRAP they can't even BACK UP!

Now, go ahead and whine and cry all you want, but you make a LAUGHINGSTOCK of yourselves and LOSE CREDIBILITY every time you dredge up one of these FRAUDS to represent your cause.

Get a clue...

I don't buy it

Too glib, too superficial, and too pandering to the movement...

Give me one specific that he added...

A file that happened to be left open to a computer he was on....he happened to be standing next to a controlled demolition expert... something about a stand-down...and, I think Alex knew this guy was bogus as he was doing it, even as he played along....

If this guy is for real, I'll be the first to apologize.

what we need from whistleblowers: hints

What we need from whistleblowers is hints of what way to go in order to find the truth. If there's someone telling me he's been on an island with a hidden treasure, then i want some damn hints how to find the island, how to find the treasure, and not repeated tales of how impressive the treasure is and affirmations that it really exists and he really saw it.

LJ Chavez reminds of another whistleblower, Samuel Danner (;read=90745 ), that also told a hard to believe (but maybe true) story: He said he stopped near the Pentagon and saw a plane like a Global Hawk approach the Pentagon, recognizing the tail wing and the unique shape of it, then he saw it hit, and joined the cleanup/rescue efforts, and during this, didn't find any 757 parts. Then he blames his lymphoma on the warhead with depleted uranium.
- It also doesn't tell us anything new, but only confirms a theory by way of an eyewitness.

I don't know if Chavez is genuine. But please folks keep in mind, there is liars on this planet, some with bad some with good intentions, not all people are the same, and for some lying is just another habit. And the old "i looked in his face and saw he didn't lie" *doesn't fly* - lying is undetectable in most cases, including polygraphs, and it's the root of all evil, people have been put on death row because of lying witnesses and much more, it's the cancer of humanity.

What you really need is some old-fashioned SKEPTICISM...

You need to stop welcoming everyone into your tent just because they come off as "true believers"...

Still the naysayers speak up

with no evidence at all to disprove anything L Chavez says. And they invariably tack on a sentence to their attack which goes something
like this - if this is true, if he's for real, etc. THEN I will apologize, eat
my hat, whatever. To the people making these attacks against Lauro
based on nothing other than their disbelief that this is too good to be true - it would be the kinder, wiser course of action to post nothing, say nothing and let this man's story unfold. What purpose will it serve
for those in the movement to attack a man who is looking to be a hero to the movement and then offering your lame apologies later. This is a real person here. I am glad that I have never posted a
letter bashing an American hero with the stipulation that I'd apologize
later on when I'm proven wrong. If statements like this are somehow
considered contributions to the movement, think again. Verifications are being made. I suggest negative and foolish commentary cease in the meanwhile. Valerie

Good point

Good point.

This is a silly thing to

This is a silly thing to say. If you don't speak up when someone comes in with garbage, then next week you'll be watching glen beck and he'll be telling you what idiots truthers are for believing something rediculous like what this guy might be lying about. It's exactly what they did with that no planes thing. If you let it in without scrutiny, they'll paint you as an idiot who does not scrutinize next week on tv, and people will never look for the facts because they'll already know we're crazy.


I'm glad to see people aren't blindly jumping on a bandwagon with this.

You refuse to address the issues...

> with no evidence at all to disprove anything L Chavez says

There's plenty of evidence to disprove him. You and the other conspiro-sheeple refuse to address them because you want SO badly to believe that there was some secret conspiracy involved with 9/11.


the line in previous post should read "looking like a hero" rather than "looking to be". L Chavez has not sought out this attention himself.

Look, we're all here because

Look, we're all here because our common sense would no longer allow us to swallow unsubstantiated crap. There is nothing wrong with that. It's a good thing. I say what this guy says is crap until he really substantiates it. He didn't on alex today. I don't think a pdf of his discharge from the military as a sargeant will lead me to believe that he had any access at all to state secrets that might cause a revolution. I am not a sap for neocon bs, because I can smell it and know what it is. This too still smells funny, and when he makes the stink go away with some proof or substance, I will believe it. If you just accept stuff like this, people will find it easier every day to make truthers look like flakes and screwballs. Alex has to fill up hours every day, and he'll do it with bs if he has to. I don't think he should have this time, but I don't have his difficult job of filling three hours a day. This guy is just parroting things he reads off the internet back to us. It's silly.

Just Curious

What would you consider as evidence to substantiate his claims?

If he can prove he was on

If he can prove he was on base that morning and that it was possible to have been where he says he was and near or around top-level people that morning, then it would still come to down to his word.

Pc help desk?

The guy was running the computer helpdesk, for christ sake. And you believe he's allowed to look into a secret rapport, flipping pages, and no one is coming up to him an says: he you, you're not supposed to see that? And why doesn't he remembers names when he visited that command center regurarly.

He is more important to this

He is more important to this movement than you or I only if he has something to say that can be substantiated, and is useful as evidence toward further proving the cover up. He appears to have no such evidence. What he's saying is, "I think what you guys do. I saw everything but can't prove it, and it's exactly the way you guys think it is, but I can't give you guys anything that will strengthen the proof of your beliefs.. now let me on the radio because I've always wanted to be on the radio." I would consider it evidence if he had pocketed the folder he was looking into and I held it in my hands and read it. All I'm saying is, I could tell you that I was at the bureau of motor vehicles and heard them making the plans to blow up the building in the back room. Would you believe me just because I showed you I had a drivers license?

Well, as long as you didn't forge your driver's license...

> I could tell you that I was at the bureau of motor vehicles and heard them
> making the plans to blow up the building in the back room. Would you
> believe me just because I showed you I had a drivers license?

Well, as long as you didn't have a forged driver's license, you would still be more credible than SGT Lauro "Undocumented IT Combat Tour" Chavez... ;O)

Do you really need to be have your hand held on this? Get real..

> What would you consider as evidence to substantiate his claims?

How about a story that is plausible and consistent with known facts? Start with his DD214, and with information readily verifiable online. If somebody's DD214 shows he never spent a day overseas, don't believe he spent 8 months fighting in Afghanistan. If an airport was still under attack by US and UK forces in mid-October, and the enemy wasn't driven out until November, AND the main runway wasn't cleared of mines and unexploded ordnance until the following January, don't believe he flew in on a big-ass cargo jet in late September 2001. If he flew in on plane with no windows in the cargo compartment, don't believe that he could "see" that they were coming under fire. If his job specialty is that of a LAN/IT technician, don't believe that they pulled him from his geek job and threw hin into combat. If an alleged pipeline through Afghanistan was never even BUILT, don't fall for his crap that he was over there guarding it!

What's so amazing (and pathetic) is that you have this investigative crap all backwards. Instead of gathering the facts and checking for errors and inconsistencies, then drawing the conclusions from them, you have it completely ass-backwards. You guys start out with a highly improbable conspiracy, then work backwards, hand-picking your data and grabbing on to the most convoluted and tenuous threads when they match your story, while ignoring and dismissing information that is easily verified because it doesn't fit you're pre-conceived notions.

You're not journalists, you're not muck-rakers, you're not investigators. You're a sorry bunch of "true believers" that are being manipulated and turned into laughingstocks, along with the Flat Earthers and Moon Landing Hoax kooks. Get a clue... :O(

Still highly suspicious. So

Still highly suspicious. So he worked as a desktop support type at CENTCOM but somehow he's amongst high-ranking military on the morning of 9/11 and "overhears" one say they "were ordered to 'Stand Down'"!
I'm sorry but that sounds like BS. And then he says he's been active in a 9/11 Truth group for years but only now has come public as a "whistlebolower"...
I still think this is another SAM DANNER.
He needs to give detail-specific info on who exactly said exactly what when that morning.

LOL@ The "9/11 Debunkers"

You somehow believe that EVERYONE who questions what we were told about 9/11 all think the same, "deny 9/11 happened", or that we all think Bush flew fake planes into buildings. Why don't we just find common ground, as it is the so called debunkers who come out sounding like manic mean spirited assholes.

As for this story, I wasnt convinced at all listening to the Alex Jones show today...I have no doubt he was in the army or may have worked there, but Im not completely buying it.

Interesting that there are

Interesting that there are so many posts quick to claim this guy is bogus. If his story IS legit, a "smoking gun" type story, surely there would be government trolls on this site shooting it down. Maybe that's what we're seeing here. The initial evidence (Central Command on discharge papers, others who have seen him at truth events) seem to indicate he's real. As for him being a neocon agent, that's ridiculous, he's coming out with evidence directly pointing to the neocons(Cheney). Could be he's an agent to take the blame off the military, or maybe his story is inflated for his ego, or maybe he's simply legit! At this point the jury's still out. Why not reserve judgement and let his story unfold?



My BS meter was twitching when I read the letter to the ditor over the weekend, but the radio interview adds to his credibility.

In a room full of networked computer systems the worker bee (IT support) would be right there in the thick of it. And the IT guy is everyone's friend... 

I am looking forward to this story unfolding.

In the thick of WHAT?

> In a room full of networked computer systems the worker bee (IT support) would be right there in the thick of it.

I hope you're being sarcastic. Do people really believe that the Army pulls out IT guys and sends them into combat in Agghanistan by landing them on Taliban-controlled airfields in C-5s? Of course, he gets no credit on his DD214 for overseas duty, and no medals or ribbons because it's all "hush-hush" and "top secret", right?

ROTLFMAO!!! Sorry, but I have seen more believable story lines in "Private Benjamin" and "Stripes"...

If you look at WHO is

If you look at WHO is calling him a hoax, you see that it's the regulars, not the trolls. And interestingly enough, suddenly a lot of "Anonymous" people come to his support!

Decide for yourself

Listen to this again and tell me that this guy doesn't go overboard trying to tell us what he thinks Truthers want to hear. He's way too slick (in sort of an obvious way).

I'm just asking....look at it from that perspective....

And, where are the verifiable specifics? What do you take away from it that is verifiable?

IMO, it's a hoax...let's not get played, folks...

Danger Will Robinson!

I have not been able to download the audio, however it seems clear to me this guy is not doing the Truth movement any favours.

Let me summarise:

1) He is way too low level to be a real whistle blower,
2) He has not presented ANY new information
3) He has no hard evidence to back up his claim.

How many more hints do you need to realise that this is a dead-end?

(: 911oz

Another Cockburn 9/11 hit piece

Another 9/11 hit piece by Cockburn at Counterpunch.

Note two important items:
(1) Again, discussion of inconvenient facts is studiously avoided. He goes on and on about the Pentagon. I personally wrote to Counterpunch, urging them to take a serious look at the war games, but just as I thought, they are not mentioned at all.

(2) Cockburn's attempt to paint the 9/11 truth movement as a bunch of "nutcases" enlists the help of a very imprudent email he received. As you can see, screaming "F**K YOU" and going on and on like a rabid dog hurts our cause even more than Cockburn does.

So, you can see the standard debunker tactics at work here, and take action to counter them. Namely, (1) be polite, (2) be concise, (3) do not take the bait and get into arguments about the physical evidence. The 9/11 movement needs to stay ON MESSAGE: the war games, the money trail, oil/gas, drugs, Pakistani complicity, etc.

Hahaha... that article was

Hahaha... that article was great. I'm an old school Ezra Taft Benson
mormon conservative. And I feel that if the radical left wants to
commit seppuku with 9-11 conspiracist garbage, then let 'em.

Just as long as they do it quietly.

hahahah to you

I hate to burst your bub but the radical left does NOT support the 9/11 truth movement - that's what all this Cockburn bidness is about! The 9/11 Truth Movement is non-partisan.

hahahah to you

I hate to burst your bub but the radical left does NOT support the 9/11 truth movement - that's what all this Cockburn bidness is about! The 9/11 Truth Movement is non-partisan.

You're a douchebag and need

You're a douchebag and need to leave. Any chance you're Glenn Beck? You're about as pompous and stupid as him. Probably just as ugly, too.


You know as well as I do that there is no way on God's green earth that President Benson would be supporting this administration right now, regardless of 9/11.

I know that Benson was no

I know that Benson was no fan of the UN. I know that J. Rueben Clark warned that the
UN would seek to take away America's to determine where and when she goes to war.
Exactly as the UN has attempted to do with regards to Iraq. I know that the Iraq and
Afghan campaigns fulfilled at least two of David O Mackay's rules for going to war.

I also know that in addition to the neo-nazis, the 9-11 tinfoil turban wearers also count
card carrying commies as supporters. Look at at the footage of Mahmoud Imadinnerjacket
and Hugo Chavez making goo-goo eyes at eachother while taking turns bashing America
and pushing 9-11 conspiracist BS at the UN. It's the biggest nazi-commie lovefest since the
Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, and we have marxist Kofi Annan playing matchmaker for the

When you see the swastika, the hammer and sickle and the pale blue globe on one side
you can garantee that Ezra Taft Benson would be on the opposite side.

Oh, and by the way... someone who has publicly considered abandoning his priesthood
if the church doesn't rubber stamp his political agenda telling me how to interpret the prophets
that's just comedy.

I've been a ward clerk twice, a ward executive secretary, sunday school president, ward building
rep, primary worker and asistant cub scout leader. The church has never failed to give me an
opportunity to serve and that's not going to stop anythime soon. My loyalties remain as President
Benson counselled "God, Family, Country". And if Jones gets thrown out on his ass for his
disloyalty and dishonesty... or if he goes back to class, I'll still be here.

Oh yeah... one more

Oh yeah... one more thing.

If the entire faculty of engineering at BYU had told Benson
that a building collapse was NIT controlled demolition, he'd
side with them.

Since you know as well as I do that Brother A. Woodruff Miller
and those in his faculty are chosen for both thier engineering
expertise and thier moral character.

The physical evidence is the

The physical evidence is the strongest case 9/11 Truth has. Wargames, and oil pipelines, and prior knowledge are weak evidence really.


... "Chuck Spinney, now retired after years of brilliant public service exposing the Pentagon's budgetary outrages, wrote to me that "there ARE pictures taken of plane hitting Pentagon -- they were taken by the surveillance cameras at Pentagon's heliport, which was right next to impact point. I have seen themÖboth stills and moving pictures. I just missed seeing it personally, but the driver of the van I just got out of in South Parking saw it so closely that he could see the terrified faces of passengers in windows. I knew two people who were on the plane. One was ID'd by dental remains found in the Pentagon."

In his previous article he bable about his brother having seen these mystery photos which nobody else (Not even Popular Mechanics) has ever mentioned!

This guy's language just reeks of propaganda ... It is really hard to believe that he is not an agent of some kind.

Does anyone have any background info on Mr. Cockburn (Cock-head would be a more appropriate name)... How long has he been in journalism... who he is connected with etc ... this could be a very interesting line of research in itself...

Cockburn is a Scientologist

It may mean that Scientology is fighting 9/11 truth. Or his is only a personal crusade. Is Scientology linked to the CIA or are these madmen independant?

Alexander Cockburn, a mouthpiece for Scientology:

From :

One of these subjects is his nuanced position with respect to the activities of the Church of Scientology. In an Los Angeles Times column published in the late 1990s, Cockburn criticized the attempt by the German government to inhibit the growth of Scientology through restrictive laws, and invoked several comparisons to Nazi Germany in order to illustrate what he views as a threat to the rights enjoyed by Scientologists to worship in a manner they see fit. Although he conceded that the aggressive posture of the CoS deserved scrutiny, he also maintained that the demonization of any particular unpopular group—even one that might be cultish in nature—presented a far more imminent danger than the activities of Scientologists, or the organization they belong to.[1] This stance has led some critics to accuse him of being a shill for the Church of Scientology.[2]

A recent article from Counterpunch defends Scientology:

<< Or is it a spiritual movement in an advanced stage of adolescence? If it's the latter, and I think a good case can be made for that description, give it another hundred years or so, and you may find it taking its place in the pantheon of respected world religions. >>

The Twists and Turns of Disinfo

I've read through some of the articles on the website.

Interesting, but I totally disagree with the thust of this page, which seems to equate criticism of the anti-depressant industry with "Scientology Propaganda". Scientology may well be the equivalent of "pod people" in the 9/11 movement - ie. a deliberate disinfo campaign designed to discredit anyone who questions the mainstream bio-psychiatric dogma about mental illness.

Of course, many non-scientologists have criticised the over-prescription of SSRI anti depressants (and rightly so). Cockburn, therefore, is not necesarily a scientologist.

He may however be a professional "disinformationist" ...

From the first paragraph of

From the first paragraph of the first article linked on the website that I bothered to check:

"...well over a decade after nay-sayers including Dr Peter Breggin, the Scientologists, and this columnist raised the alarm..."

Who besides a scientologist would start an article this way? Not me! You?

wait, hold on. Cockburn is a

wait, hold on. Cockburn is a scientologist and he has the nerve to come at us with that vitriol? i never make fun of peoples specific religions, i think all organized religion is a sham and damaging to society though many religions have good aspects to them when not forced on others. but scientology is a bad joke and a grand pyramid scheme. ask me what a "pheton" is. hahahahaha. im sorry, but fuck Cockburn.(dont isolate that phrase,haha) i used to read his stuff all the time but im gonna have trouble ever taking him seriously again.


to watch 911 Mysteries: Demolition and refute THAT! They skirt the OBVIOUS to serve their own agenda.

I just listened to most of it and it sounds legit

Yes, I'd say he sounds sincere and legit to me.
No sense in shooting him down. I get the impression that the ones who are trying to discredit him are probably COINTEL--- in other words, working for the US government and trying to throw us off track.
Let's see where Chavez takes us. More people should interview him, credible people.
I must admit, I cannot understand why Cockburn and Raimondo are so in denial about 911 being an inside job. It boggles the mind! But the heck with them. They obviously have some kind of hang-up or something. God knows. Maybe they are basically AFRAID to confront the Truth head-on. Because it is a scary thing to be a whistleblower with the kind of ruthless crazies dominating this country's government at this time. So maybe they are just wusses, and don't want to admit it. Maybe they don't think it's such a big deal to let the neocons and the mossad get away with 911 as long as the people just oppose the war on Iraq. Who knows?
But I know there are many out there like me who want to see justice done, in an orderly and lawful way-- and that means getting the ones who are directly responsible for making 911 happen, putting them on trial and giving them life sentences as per their crimes of mass murder and treason.

Killing the messenger

It's getting harder and harder to write off everyone raising questions about 9-11 as marginal moonbats when a solid 30% of the public (and growing fast) is involved. The shrillness of the self-styled debunkers has only grown as their position shrinks, and a virulent anger has come to be their signature style. There is a distinct eliminationist tone to the rhetoric: anyone presenting evidence or expert opinion that points to 9-11 being an inside job is not simply misguided, they are deeply evil people deliberately spreading lies that endanger national security. The idea that they are acting in good faith, much less that they could actually be right, is never permitted.

It's a short and slippery slope from that kind of demonizing of "internal enemies" to those spiffy new internment camps that Halliburton is building.

Seriously, they're

Seriously, they're indirectly claiming that large portions of NYC, and now the country, have mental illnesses. That's just stupid and irresponsible. I've always said that a lot of people won't believe this stuff until they're the victims of the suffering, and it seems like first responders are learning the hard way.

Here's a news flash for you official story pea brains. You're oblivious pigs being sent into a slaughter house, because you think the farmer who provides food and shelter for you everyday is your friend. There's a huge surprise that awaits you at the end.

glad someone with a voice

glad someone with a voice followed up on this; i doubt this will be the last time we hear from Chavez.

He sounded very genuine but

He sounded very genuine but I'm still sceptical about his claims. Time will tell I guess.

Alex Jones needs to stop talking all over his guests though. He's far to in love with his own voice and his own opinions. We know what you think Alex, let your guests speak. He also needs to stop preaching hate. A Christian by definition follows the teachings of Christ. Love your enemies, Alex. Otherwise you're as false a Christian as George Bush.

Just to make it clear I'm not hating on Alex Jones. I've been listeing to what he has to say for about six years and he always turns up good info, always has great guests and is always very inspiring to me. So if you're listeing Alex, you rule. Just please let your guests speak. And please stop with the "I hate...."

Alex is a comic book

Alex is a comic book character. David Ray Griffin is an intellectual. That's why I tune in to Alex Jones radio show every day, and read Griffin and hand out Griffin books to people.


I loved the part where Alex imitated the "air raid siren" / "ominous drumming alert sounder" thingie at around 1/4th into the show. LMAO!

I cannot listen to Jones

I cannot listen to Jones anymore, week after week he seems to go more over the top.

Can you give specifics?

Yes, Alex does get a bit mad on air, but like he says, "it's a normal reaction to what these evil criminals are doing".

Alex has woken up so many people because, a) He can back up what he says 99.9% of the time, and b) He is fired up and is trying to light a fire under everyone else. America NEEDS that type of personality to break us from this grip of apathy and "W" stickers-mentality.

But please list reasons why he has gone over the top, besides just him being loud and in-your-face at times.

Obviously, people have a right to like and dislike whom they choose. If it's just a personality thing, well I guess he just isn't everyone's cup of tea. But IMHO, a PBS radio announcer style of talk is not going to wake up America. We need someone with zeal in addition to the more-reserved Steven Jones types. BOTH are important though.
They can't explain the Mineta Testimony:


Being pretty new to 9/11 Truth, my first exposure to Alex Jones was when he hosted the conference that was aired on C-Span a couple of months ago...which led me to TerrorStorm which was awesome...which led me to download a podcast of one of his shows. It was the show with Pat Robertson from about a month ago, and a few minutes into the interview he (Alex) blurted out "Liberals hate America!" What an ignorant thing to say. (I'm a liberal and I certainly don't hate America.)

I will support him anyway, though, because 9/11 Truth is way more important than Left vs. Right squabbles. That shit can wait...especially since it will be irrelevant if we don't expose this thing.

I like Alex Jones' energy

I like Alex Jones' energy! We truly need a cheerleader with lots of energy, POSITIVE energy like he has. We need many MORE of people like him, with positive energy, some charisma, LOTS OF COURAGE!!!

And we need to be very supportive of them and not too quick to judge or criticize them. This is a hard, uphill battle and we need all the positive energy and good will we can muster for each other.

Chavez on the PowerHour in a

Chavez on the PowerHour in a few minutes.

e-mail the editors.

The Week is a magazine that comes out weekly and pulls together all of the news stories around the world and the country. its a pretty good magazine. since it has more than just american media you get to see what other newspapers in other countries are saying. i got my copy yesterday and was infuriated at what i saw:

Assessing 9/11 Blame


We may live in the Information Age, but there sure are a lot of misinformed people out there. In Indonesia, Turkey, Egypt, and Jordan—all countries said to inhabit the more enlightened quarters of the Muslim world—a majority of citizens still does not believe that Arabs perpetrated the 9/11 terror attacks, a recent Pew Research Center survey found. Many Muslims in the West cling to the same irrational view. According to Pew, 35 percent of German Muslims, 48 percent of French Muslims, and 56 percent of British Muslims answered “no” when asked, “Did Arabs carry out the 9/11 attacks?” Clearly, some debilitating social malady—a form of mass delusion—has afflicted Islamic societies.

But the same malady afflicts millions of Americans. A CNN poll finds that 43 percent of Americans still believe Saddam Hussein was “personally involved” in the Sept. 11 plot—even though President Bush has acknowledged that Iraq had “nothing” to do with 9/11. But if it wasn’t Saddam, who was it? More than a third of our fellow citizens suspect the federal government. In a new Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll, 36 percent called it “very likely” or “somewhat likely” that federal officials either participated in the attacks, or didn’t try to stop them “because they wanted the United States to go to war in the Middle East.” It’s alarming: There have always been zealots and conspiracy theorists at the fringes of society; human beings have an uncanny ability to filter out information they find troubling, confusing, or simply contrary to what they already believe. But thanks to the Internet, it’s now a snap to find a community of like-minded believers to reinforce your delusions. The nuts, it seems, are achieving critical mass.

Eric Effron
Managing editor

i will now be cancelling my subscription. do me a favor and send the editors an e-mail and tell them how you feel.

Bin Laden skeleton to be found soon?


The current media coverage of Bill Clinton's dispute over hunting Bin Laden, now Condi Rice saying GWB has not forgotten Osama, this is all such nonsense, because OBL is dead long already, that the only conclusion can with Saddam in 2004...the neocons will serve OBL's death this time.
Just Imagine the media hype:
- DNA verified V!!
- Bush celebrated as the 'sheriff' who caught him "dead or alive" as promised V!
- Al-Qaeda announces a month of mourning, acknowledges GWB's victory....successor to be announced soon V!
- All throughout the election period on the news: terrorism experts debating if it's safe to declare victory yet in the W.O.T.
- meanwhile, completely forgotten in all this euphoria: omissions and distortions in the official account of what happened on 9/11....
- then: new Republican landslide victory !!

This stuff scares the shit

This stuff scares the shit out of me:

Would these bastards really be crazy enough to pull of such a thing?

Be sure also to click the link to Prof. Jorge Hirsch's article, he's refuting Sey Hersh's
claim that the nucleair option against Iran is of the table.

next is Iran

They need a justification first. The big question is where will Bush get it from with all the antiwar sentiment. It is the neocon dream, for sure, but can they really pull off another false flag? What speaks for the Iran-plan is the constant maximization of troops in Iraq & Afghanistan: Isn't it out of line to amass troops in 'peacetime' with no emergency justifying it? The only plausible explanation is they want the troops to be there to defend Iraq against Iran or to do a ground attack.

One thing that went completely underreported is the news story about Zarqawi's laptop. After his 'death' they said they had recovered his laptop and flashmemory-sticks with vital Al-Qaeda documents. It seems like i'm the only one that read the article on CNN what these documents held: They held the plan of Zarqawi to stage attacks that would be blamed on Iran, because Zarqawi's strategy was to get the U.S. into a war with Iran.
- We all know this was straight from the falseflag-scriptwriters.

It's also frequently forgotten that Iran was part of the Axis of Evil nations that Bush outlined. The War On Terror was begun to 'liberate' all of them, Iraq, Iran, North Korea....

North Korea was added in for

North Korea was added in for cosmetic purposes. expect Syria or Venezuela to be after Iran.

No Afghan Ribbon on DD214

I am the one that broke the Lauro story on Veterans for 9/11 Truth.

Chavez: Yeah, I was deployed to Afghanistan for 8 months. About 2 weeks
after 9/11 happened. I was there in support of the United States SOCOM,
which if everybody has played the game SOCOM they are actually a real
entity, located all at MacDill Airforce Base, and I provide them with
communications, for the special ops teams. We flew into Kabul Airport, we
were actually under fire as we flew in.

War started on Oct 7, 2001 almost 4 weeks after 9/11.

I find it odd that Lauro was deployed in Afghanistan, and has no ribbon on
his DD 214.

Afghanistan Campaign Medal
4. Criteria: a. Authorized to be awarded to soldiers who deploy to
Afghanistan in direct support of Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) on or
after 24 October 2001 to a date to be determined or the cessation of OEF.
The area of eligibility encompasses all land area of the country of
Afghanistan and all air spaces above the land.

b. To be eligible for the award, a soldier must be assigned or attached to
a unit participating in OEF for 30 consecutive days or for 60
nonconsecutive days in Afghanistan or meet one of the following criteria:
1) Be engaged in actual combat against the enemy and under circumstances
involving grave danger of death or serious bodily injury from enemy
action, regardless, of time in the Afghanistan. 2) While participating in
OEF or on official duties, regardless of time, is killed or
wounded/injured requiring medical evacuation from Afghanistan. 3) While
participating as a regularly assigned air crew member flying sorties into,
out of, within, or over Afghanistan in direct support of OEF; each day
that one or more sorties are flown in accordance with the criteria shall
count as one day towards the 30 consecutive or 60 nonconsecutive day

Alfons v911t

Wow - no afghan ribbon

Alfons, you need but ask and I can explain why I have no ribbon on my 214 - and no combat action badge - its because of how I left the military. I used a chapter 13 to get out early for School. So go research that...

That was my loophole exit - however, I was there and I really dont give a crap about some ribbon. They give out ribbons like candy anyway. Who cares...


You never spent a DAY in Afghanistan, Lauro the Imposter!

> Alfons, you need but ask and I can explain why I have no ribbon on my 214 - and no combat action badge - i
> ts because of how I left the military. I used a chapter 13 to get out early for School. So go research that...


Your DD214 will reflect ANY award/commendation//medal/ribbbon related to anything you hang on your rack as soon as your unit personnel office receives orders authorizing them. How you left the military (even if you were COURT-MARTIALLED) wouldn't affect awards listed on your DD214 UNLESS they were officially withdrawn or rescinded (i.e., awarded by error). In addition, how do you explain your tall tale of "8 months of combat duty" that your DD214 doesn't show a DAY of overseas service? And, I won't even get into your C5-into-Kabul-under-fire story, how as an IT guy you wound up on the front lines, or guarding the non-existent pipeline....

Even as a forger, you're an amateur. Better ask Dan Rather who he uses at Kinko's next time - he almost got away with his fakes, but you definitely aren't.

Consider yourself BUSTED!

Where did you find his DD214?

I keep trying to find a site that allows searching of DD214... everything I found is something you have to type social security numbers in and more personal information. How are you finding information about Lauro without more personal information? It seems rather ridiculious you can just find ANYONEs military record.

I don't know if I really believe this guy, it seems too "playing right into the hands" which seems a bit odd.

But I am curious as to where you guys are finding his military record....

DD214 has no signature on block 22 either

DD214 has no signature on block 22 either, and I hinted at it already yesterday here:

You can check Lauro's alleged DD214 here:

Lauro, what's the deal with this???

No signiture

Good question - After you pointed it out. But when I googled dd214 I found like 20 different versions of the DD214

My assumption is that a //signed or typed signiture block was good enough for the personnel office - hell - they gave it to me when I got out, so I hope its good. I've used it for my background checks and stuff for my CCWL - so, I'm assuming his typed name was good enough.

I dont know why he didn not sign it - I think that his typed name was considered a signiture.

Sorry I dont have an answer for you

I guess one more thing in the fight to prove I am who I am

This is alot of work...trying to prove my worth -

Funny, cuz I could care less about being popular - I just want things to change, I just hope things can change before my children get old enough to have to deal with this civilization.

Just call me and we can talk I guess - I can show you coins from Gen Franks ;o)

Signed DD214, or not.....

LJ: you've got some pay stubs, right? You've got a VERY long list of SS numbers for the other people in your old units, right? You've got a plausible background that can be checked by contacting other prior-service buddies, right?

If you're for-real.... just keep talking with people and remain fearless when using your real full name.

If you truthfully and willfully embody the Oath which you and I have both sworn to, then know that you are not even a rarity anymore, battling it out in the trenches of 9/11 truth.

"The truth shall make you free." Why not make the truth free? We live on a priceless blue pearl, awash in a universe of fire and ice. Cut the crap.

dont get discouraged. all of

dont get discouraged. all of us here would like nothing more than for your story to be %100 true. you cant blame us for being skeptical though. if your story is indeed true you are taking a tremendous risk in telling it and i thank you so much for that. we all do, despite some of our apprehension.

That's right, Chris...

I have been skeptical of Mr. Chavez's story on this blog, but want to express my regrets in advance, if my qualms prove to be groundless. He is being attacked for coming out for this story and I don't want to add to his being punished for telling the truth, if that is indeed the case.

Alex Jones and his producer seem convinced by the guy and that goes a long way with me. But, I'm not that confident yet (no names or documents, just a great story confirming what we think we know, so far).

We all know what the Karl Rove's of the other side are capable of (Rathergate, anyone?), so we have to remain (politely) cautious.

Lauro, you're not telling us the truth..

> But when I googled dd214 I found like 20 different versions of the DD214

Let me guess - you kept on working on it until you thought it looked just right, huh?

Stop playing games, Lauro - admit that your story and your DD214 (whatever version you have) don't match up.

DD214: How common is "forgotten" or otherwise omitted signature?


how common is a "forgotten" or otherwise omitted signature on a DD 214 form?

Are there any other examples for such a thing in the ranks of the Veterans for 9/11 Truth?

How common? Not likely at all...

> how common is a "forgotten" or otherwise omitted signature on a DD 214 form?

Not likely at all. Anyone who has made it past the first 2 weeks of boot camp knows how anal-retentive the military is about paperwork, dotting the i's, crossing the t's, getting all the signatures. Heck, even if they kick your ass out, you STILL have to sign all the paperwork to verify that you were being booted...

I sense that these goo-goo "we support you, no matter what they say" Lauro Chavez chearleader types don't have much of an idea how things work in the real world. They are suckered into believing the most outrageous conspiracy theories while ignoring the most obvious of discrepancies... :O(

I would just like to take

I would just like to take this opportunity to thank the moderator who banned me for replying to being called a dis-info merchant, an agent and a spook, by calling the poster the stupidest fucking moron on the planet.

Thanx guys. Showing your true colours.

this is unrelated, but I came up with this list of questions

The first 2 stories that NORAD submitted to the 9/11 comission painted them in a worse light. Why would they lie to make themsevles look worse?

Why would a couple of military officers risk they careers to say they saw Atta only to be proved wrong by the official report (Able danger) Why was 1.5 TB of data then destroyed?

Why was the anthrax said to have some from US military and then that statement withdrawn? Why was the whitehouse on Cipro? Why would Islamists target sentators? More likely would be the administration.

Why was a dentist who informed the FBI about 3 hijackers poisoned? and his claims refuted. (Did he lie too?)

Why was the EPA whistleblower SWAT teamed?

Why does the USG not care in following up the Pakistan lead? Why would they then meet the same ISI and treat them with respect?

How was Building 7's collapse predicted? Were there any outward signs that it would collapse? You may say they building was damaged and on fire, but many other buildings were damaged and on fire (some were damaged far more severely) Why was the fire alarm switched off that very morning?

Also, you telling me that Mineta lied? If he didn't have an exact timeframe why would he specify one?

What's the likelihood of having 5 war game exercises occur on that very day, some imitating the actual attack?

Would you have admitted the possibility that the Bush admin had some prior knowlegde of the fact if it weren't for the PDB?

Would you have admitted that the JCS would sign off on a false flag against their people if it weren't for Northwoods?

Why did Bush show no reaction when told of the news. (Not even a casual question?) Why was he holding a book upside down? Why did he refuse to testify on the record for the 9/11 comission?

Why has the bin Laden tape not been confirmed by the CIA as to authenticity? Why is the picture quality so poor? Why does the FBI think he's left handed when the video shows him to be right handed? Why haven't the FBI officially charged him with 9/11? Why did the FOIA request for the facts surrounding the tape turn up nothing (I mean this is an important tape, are they that disorganized to not keep track of this info?) Why has he not been captured yet?

Atta: What of reports that he trained at a US mil base? Why did one FAA employee identify him as wearing a suit yet the pic (with no timestamp, and blurry, I could not make a positive Id) show him to not have a suit jacket on? Why was he going to take his last will and testament with him on the plane? What of his drinking, drug and lap-dance habits. Do you think he was really ready to die after all that?

list of questions

"What's the likelihood of having 5 war game exercises occur on that very day, some imitating the actual attack?"

You can include the attacks of 7/7 in London. There were also terror response exercises going on at precisely the same locations where the attacks occurred. This fact can be found, among other places, in TerrorStorm.

Call it a formula. Planned exercises that turn real.

Discharge Papers

LJ's Certificate of Release or Discharge From Active Duty

Sorry I cant log in - put to

Sorry I cant log in - put to the back of the class for swearing at a jerk!!

You guys seen this?


Cartoon ridiculing 911 Movement is Still Good Publicity!

In the mainstream newspaper I get daily (just for local news, obviously) ran a cartoon ridiculing the 911 Truth movement--- but I got great pleasure out it since even bad publicity is good publicity. There is no such thing as bad publicity.
This means the 911 Truth Movement is SO HUGE that the mainstream newspaper CAN'T put it in the "memory hole" even if they would dearly love to. The fact is that so many people are talking about it and so many people are now skeptical of the mainstream media as a result. If the mainstream media completely igonored the 911 Truth movement it would be complete proof of their participation in the coverup of all Truth about 911, Israel, the war on Iraq, the neocons and so on...

can you get a copy of this

can you get a copy of this to us? maybe scan it in, or see if there is a version online?


Still don't trust this guy,

Still don't trust this guy, if he's hanging with Franks then he mega high-level, something just doesn’t seem right about this to me at least. Also that shill "Amanda Reconwith" or whatever was pushing him, considering everything she/he pushes amounts to "no planes at the wtc" "Jews did it" and attacks and Dr Jones etc, there's something funny about him/her pushing "Chavez" also. The only whistleblower I need is Sibel Edmonds, at least she's got a gag order.

Dem Bruce Lee Styles

I attack ideas, you attack people.

No you’re a shill who

No you’re a shill who pushes disinfo, period.

Rational Observation

After reading LJ's letter when it first hit the internet the story appeared less than legit.
After listening to the interview there appears to be a better chance that it's legit. The vetting process has just started.

He repeated that he heard that a stand-down order was given.
He discusses the letter and his intent in writing it.
He didn't expect it to be printed in the wasn't.
It was a one-to-one correspondence to the paper's editor.
His letter to the editor was written in angry response to a piece in his local newspaper.
He didn't intend it to be on a par with a peer-reviewed scientific treatise.
He didn't intend for it to go public.
He was venting and wrote things hurriedly. In his frustration with the hit piece to which he was responding he threw statements in that should have been thought about more carefully. It was mostly his anger that got in the way of being entirely factual. He was basically just pissed off and ranting.
This is all very reasonable.

BUT, now that he's calmed down, he still says he knows a stand-down order was given.

I think there's more to come.
Alex suggested going over pictures to ID the colonel who said a stand-down order was given.

Now that he's in the public eye...
Others in the command bunker may come forward.
Others in a position to know from somewhere else may come forward.

As it stands until more comes out, what LJ has said can't be used with any authority....yet.

Treat the whole thing as a process rather than resorting to instant denouncement or instant endorsement. It has to be allowed to walk through the process.

There is certainly a large amount of factual evidence that entirely refutes the "official" story. If this LJ situation causes more people to understand the already vetted factual evidence, it's positive.
Anyone who already knows these facts isn't going to turn away from 9/11 truth just because the process of vetting LJ takes place.

Rational Observation

I think it is great that the 9/11 Truth community is skeptical, by gosh that is probably how we got to be the 9/11 Truth community, we question things. So this vetting process is good, great even, shows that we are not crazy, shows that we are astute, methodical, and systematically truthful.

Although, now that the story is out there, will it be used to discredit the 9/11 Truth Community if the story if found to be unsupportable? When I saw the story, I thought, how the heck do you verify this? I guess what is being done here, is the verification process. It is not like we have a stable of investigators that we can send out to fact check. We are the investigators, most are amateurs, but we work cheap.

I like the way most of the posts have been very rational, and intellectually honest.

Alfons v911t


The form that SGT Chavez posted is the DD214 Form 1, also known as the "short form". There are 7 parts of the 214, with each part going to a different agency (VA, Archives, etc). The "short forms" do not have the bottom portion of the 214 that includes the discharge information. The DD214 Form 4, aka "long form" will contain the information on his discharge.

I'd be interested to see the long form. A Chapter 13 discharge is not to attend school. A chapter 13 is "unsatisfactory performance". Basically a failure to meet military standards, but not doing anything so bad as to warrant a more severe action.

Without that official's signature the 214 is not an official document. So if SGT Alvarez reads this I highly recommend he contacts McDill AFB and try and have his 214 corrected.

Please research the UCMJ for

Please research the UCMJ for the clause that allows a solider an early discharge. It does exist. Its possible that he misquoted the regulations.

Mr. Lauro is a lying

Mr. Lauro is a lying stinking cocksucker. He cannot say he was sent to Afghanistan "2 weeks after 9/11" when we know that the war did not start until October - FOUR WEEKS after 9/11.

Another liar for that so-called "911 Truth Movement." That's not truth - that's BULL SHIT.

We should form a group just to spend time showing all the lies of the "911 Truth Movement."

there are plenty already and

there are plenty already and they are hard at work. you go boy.

there were troops pre staged

there were troops pre staged in Kazakstan weeks prior to the actual "date of war". You really think it took the bush regime that long to invade? Your an idiot - they had troops pre planted there waiting. That date, is when it was official - and more troops started being sent. Do you have any clue what you are talking about


Oh really, and what exactly is your proof of this? That would be an interesting place to prestage troops, considering Kazakhstan doesn't even share a border with Afghanistan.

Even so, deploying troops in neutral or allied countries is hardly the same as flying computer repairmen into a hostile airfield under fire. Why didn't the Taliban complain about this invasion of their country? How did our stalwart hero escape from the plane under fire, from an enemy controlled airbase, and hide behind enemy lines for another two months until they were liberated by the Northen Alliance? Come on, I want to hear this war story!

Mr. Lauro is a lying

I bet there are US troops in Iran right now, my best guess is that recon troops have been there for more than a year, and the war is not started yet. So you are jumping the gun with your claims, fact is we don't know. No US troops were in Cambodia, so said Kissinger, but I knew otherwise.

harsh comments

SUch invective! And to think it is you that are full of shit. The Afghan war was already staged before 9/11. We had ships in the Gulf and the Brits had their largest armada since the
Falkan war exercise. So for you to make the comments you make without knowing anything is uncalled for. Apparently you belong to the Regressives (formerly known as the Right.)

sounds like this guy might

sounds like this guy might end up loosing his job. =( a very high paying job for ohio....

sounds like this guy might

I heard he already lost it - too bad.

We're going to tear this Jesse MacBeth wannabe to shreads. He will be lucky to find a job selling computers at Circuit City when the smoke clears.

I'm counting on you L.J. We all are.

I'm counting on you L.J. We all are.

"A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves" – Edward R. Murrow

What If:

Sometimes I like to think what it would be like using a fictional situation.

What if next week the MSM headlines read:

"Ten at 911 Military Command Center Say Cheney Gave Stand Down Order"

This Guy Is Getting Hilarious

This Guy Is Getting Hilarious

SGT Chavez's hole gets deeper:

Q - How soon after 9/11 did you go to Afghanistan?

It was about 2 ½ weeks after 9/11 that it happened, the 26th, a couple of weeks, few weeks.

That is interesting, because in his original letter he said the 25th. Must be a time zone thing...

Q - Now that you know what you know and you were sent to Afghanistan... Did you still think in your mind that you were trying to get the Taliban, Al Qaeda, or Bin Laden?

That’s the thing. I flew into Kabul Airport, like, I mean literally when our C5 came in, we were escorted by jet. We were escorted by F15s and we were getting shot at, like, they were literally, like, pop-shotting up at the planes as we were trying to land because the Special Forces and the Air force para-rescue guys had just, had just cleared it, like, literally like, we were there like, I was there, like, five hours after like, the fire fight where they actually got everybody, like all the Taliban moved back out of the airport so that we could land planes, ya know. So, like, I’m on a, we’re on a big C5 and we’ve got all our vehicles underneath us, and I’m mean, I’m just like, “Oh God, ya know, this thing could fall out of the sky, because it doesn’t ...”

This part is just hilarious. For starters C5s were hardly used at all during the beginning of the war, the airports were not long enough or in good enough shape to handle that large of a plane, the C-130 and C-17 were used instead. Secondly, how did we manage to take over the entire airfield, without anyone other than Mr. Chavez, not even the Taliban apparently, noticing for almost 2 months?

He continues:

I don’t know if you’ve ever seen a C-5 fly, but it looks like it’s not even moving, it’s so big. So it’s really easy to like shoot at, like a machine gun, ya know, and ya know, like, there were bullet holes on the sides of the plane. And of course they didn’t come all the way through, but and we’re all looking at them later and I’m like, “Holy cow, we’re getting shot at!”

Wow, now we have bulletproof C-5s! What will they think of next?

But, yeah, I thought we were going to Afghanistan to hunt down Bin Laden. I’m helping in the search to hunt down Bin Laden. No. Not the case. Actually, I actually was providing communications for special ops guys and then I was pulling roving guard, guarding the pipeline.

Q - Guarding the pipeline for oil for United States... corporate, right?

That’s right. A lot of people don’t know about the pipeline. A lot of people, when I talk about that are like, “What are you talking about?” And I’m like, “Dude, there’s a huge... like, the Alaskan pipeline, that comes all the way through Afghanistan, like down in the Gulf, it comes through Pakistan...” I don’t know where all it goes, honestly I haven’t really found a whole lot on it, but... I was, I had to pull shifts, like every two or three days they’d..... I’ve have to pull a six hour rotation, on top of a humvica(?) driving around pieces, these sections of this pipeline to make sure that, ya know, like, guys weren’t going to come blow it up. And ya know, then, that’s when I started thinking, I’m like, I’m like, well, “What am I here for man? I’m not protecting people, I’m protecting oil!” Ya know, who wants to get shot for that? They give you guys awards, ya know, and I’m just like, “For what? Ya know, what did we do? We protected someone’s money. Ya know, somebody’s investment.”

Yeah, a lot of people don't know about the pipeline, like, for example, the government of Afghanistan!

“The agreement was signed in the expectation that the security situation would change in the next two years,” said political analyst Qasim Akhgar. “It certainly will, but it is not clear whether it will get better or worse.”

The pipeline proposal has been on the table for decades. The first tentative agreement was brokered in 1984, but fell apart because of the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Another plan in the early 1990s was scrapped because of the factional wars that followed the Soviet withdrawal.