Dr. David Ray Griffin Speaks in Copenhagen, Denmark

Thanks Thomas for the heads up!

I am so devistated

Dear truthers,


My niece is a retired American Airlines logistics manger from Dallas. She’s really quite methodical in her reasoning - so I thought I would send her link to the recent David Ray Griffin video. I am home and waiting for the outcome tomorrow of possible cancer therapy this week and just got this email.

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Dear Uncle ___, haven't had time to listen to all of this guy's remarks, but from what I've heard, his arguments are weak. Very weak. I wanted to take some notes on some of the things he said, but I have a 2 year old in my lap and was not able to. In general, his arguments are anecdotal at best. So if Mark Bingham identified himself to his mother as "Mark Bingham", that means this "voice morphing" technology was being used to fake the whole thing? Excuse me? Also, as early as 1996 I have made phone calls from an airplane on the "plane phone" while in flight..at cruising altitude of 35,000 feet. To say that the technology didn't exist until recently is just false. His arguments are muddled and full of holes. If I had time I'd listen to the whole thing, take notes and rip it apart. But the fact is this guy is stringing together a whole lot of anecdotal pieces of information and calling it proof that the "elite" in this country orchestrated this attack against ourselves.


I'd love to spend more time on this, but I have to get some kiddos to bed.


Love to all,


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What can I say, even though I have listened to the analysis of Faraday cage effects on radio transmissions and what was technologically possible in 2001? My niece has now totally closed the door – my own family? Read her arguments, an American Airlines employee, please!!! Give me something to challenge her with. Please be specific since she won’t accept subterfuge in any argument, she’s is a mathematician and logistician and very intelligent. I just can’t accept this! I started my dialect with her gently and she appeared to fully agree with the fact that government foreknowledge of 911 existed. .. and now this? Help please from those of you who read this. God help us all.


I just wrote her back to inform her that Airphone was "not" a cellphone.


HELP!


I am really close to givign up the battle against "ignorance" - I just can't believe this!

Family are tough

Lost Forever,

I totally get where you are coming from.
I don't even have the guts to talk about any of this to my family who are mostly die-hard bush supportors.

I commend you for bringing this up to your niece's attention.
It seems that her mind is completely closed or almost completely closed on the subject. She pulled out one very minor point in Griffin's myths, and even got that wrong (you're right the Bingham call was a cell phone and that's what Griffin said).

Anyway, bring up some of the other points he made but remember family will be the hardest!

Good luck,
Kevin

Thanks

Kevin - thanks // but how can this be?


So simple, I turn on a light and yet you deny that you can see? You would think that family (good family) would be open minded . . . I guess not.

One call - that's it?

Is this true? Only one (1) cellphone call?

Airfones

Yes, the government introduced into evidence for the Moussaoui trial, a flash presentation which included data on all 4 flights. You can easily identify the Airfone calls by the fact that they list the row the phone was installed in. Many of the passengers made calls from the back of the plane, even though their seats were in the front. It also lists the hijackers by seat. So much for that "they were not on the flight manifests" thing.

http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution...

Moussaoui trial presented a ton of fake evidence

like those pictures of "corpses" found in the Pentagon... yup.

____

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force

 

Corpses

Now you are claiming that nobody died at the Pentagon?

How did you get into Harvard again?

I love the rules of conspiracy theory evidence. If I find some unsubstaniated claim on a webpage run by a 17 year old in his parents' basement, I can repeat it ad infinitum, no questions asked, if it could possibly support a conspiracy theory.

Evidence introduced into court by professional investigators under penalty of perjury, examined by a judge, and cross examined by a team of defense attorneys, well that can't be considered "evidence" it must be fake! We can dismiss that without even looking at it!

Well, take a look at this

Well, take a look at this picture: http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution...

and tell me if that's a real corpse.

And look at a partial list of some of the other evidence you can see on that site. Yep, I believe it all!!

PA00101 Kingdom of Saudi Arabia ID card recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
PA00102 Saudi Arabian Youth Hostel Association ID for Ahmed A. A. Al-Nami recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
PA00103.2 Passport sized photo recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
PA00103.3 Passport sized photo recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
PA00105.08 Page 37 and part of U.S. Visa page from Ziad Jarrah's Passport recovered at the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
PA00108 Kingdom of Saudi Arabia passport for Saeed A A A Al Ghamdi recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
PA00109 Business card of Assem Jarrah recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
PA00110 Part of Ahmed A A Al Nami's Florida Driver's License recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
PA00111 Red bandana recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
PE00102 Partial ID card reading ALHAZMI from the Pentagon crash site

____

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force

 

Heads I win, tails you lose

It must be so convenient to be able to make an argument, where anytime the evidence contradicts you, you simply get to arbitrarily declare it fake. You literally cannot lose no matter what.

That is the difference between scientific theory and conspiracy theory. You can prove a scientific theory wrong. A conspiracy theory can never be proven wrong in the eyes of its proponents, no matter the abundance of contrary evidence, because the evidence is always just proof of the depth of the coverup.

Well, take a look at this picture.

Thank you for providing this picture of a dead body at the Pentagon. This is the first picture of any casualties at the Pentagon that I have seen. However, I do not see your point. Are you saying this body came from an airplane? I see no connection between this body and an airplane. I do not think anyone is disputing the fact that some people died at the Pentagon, but how does the picture of a dead body get FACTUALLY connected to an alleged airplane allegedly causing the death?

a lot of people want 100%

a lot of people want 100% absolute proof in 5 minutes or else they really just don't have time..

youll find some 20+ person panels that have been held in the past.. if you can get someone to watch these they will get the bigger picture, whether or not they make the time to is really out of your control:

http://www.911busters.com/

evidence

"a lot of people want 100% absolute proof in 5 minutes or else they really just don't have time.."

No, most people would just like some facts and you morons have none.

Except for...

WTC7, Silverstein admitting the "pulled it" on camera, the eyewitness testimony of Explosions in the Towers, the freefall manner in which they came down in their footprints, the PNAC RAD documents, the 15 War Games that day, the Air Defense Stand-Down, the changing the Air Force Intercept Procedure in June '01, Bush remaining in School House after 2nd plane hits, the no identifiable 757 debris at either the Pentagon of Shanksville, Rumsfeld saying "a missle" hit the Penagon and 93 was "shot down", the unprosecuted insider trading, the fake Bin Laden tape(s), the filmed Mineta testimony, and finally, the 441 days--during which the physical evidence was shipped overseas--until an thoroughly resisted "investigation" was forced on this Administration under demands from outraged American Citizens.

Except for all that, yeah...we have no evidence....

Living with all that denial must be tough.

Show "Most of this crap you clowns" by RealWorld (not verified)

The "fire contingent" was

The "fire contingent" was pulled hours earlier...Around 1 pm local time. Buy a clue, it helps.

Mark Bingham

Bingham called from an Airfone, not a cellphone. Only one phone call was made from United 93 on a cellphone, and that was towards the end of the flight when they were below 7000 feet. The rest were made from Airfones.

As for why Bingham addressed his mother this way, did it occur to any of you to ask his mother?

Hoglan: I was staying with my brother Vaughan on the morning of September 11th, and, uh, the phone rang.

Bingham (reconstruction): Mom... Mom, this is Mark Bingham.

Hoglan: Once in a while he would say that. He would call up, and he was, he was a young businessman, and used to, used to introduce himself on phone as Mark Bingham, and he was trying to be, uh, strong, and level-headed, and, and strictly business. "Mom, this is Mark Bingham".

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/08/mom-this-is-mark-bingham.html

"Mom, this is Mark Bingham"

"Mom, this is Mark Bingham" and "I think the smartest thing to do is just pull it" belong in the miscellaneous circumstantial evidence of any paper or speech. Getting stuck on that stuff doesn't help anyone, except maybe those trying to discredit the movement.

Griffin reminded me of some great points in his speech, such as that steel is a very good conductor of heat, therefore it would take an extreme amount of heat (much more than a starved kerosene fire) to heat up any one section of steel enough to even weaken it. And for all 200+ columns to fail at the same time to cause a vertical and instantaneous collapse would be nearly impossible. The hottest steel sample NIST could find only reached about 250 deg C. not the ~900 deg C. required for the steel to start losing a significant amount of its strength.

Anyway, Griffin's speech was a good summary of the major bullet points of what's wrong with the "Government's outrageous conspiracy theory," all miscellany aside.

The steel box columns were a

The steel box columns were a "heat sink" ...the steel and it's conductivity would disperse the heat away from the source of the heat..... this is another reason that the design of the WTC made it more resiliant to fire.... the coulmns would have had to be heated equally on all sides of this type of column to cause failure.... many of those coulmns had a center fin as well which would help to distribute the heat..... this type of structure is probably 100 times more resiliant to fire than standard steel I-Beam construction....

the possibility of those types of coulmns failing in a fire are beyond remote..... especially a complete and symmetrical collapse.... we all know that those buildings could not fall in that manner. If they would have collapsed it would have taken far far longer than one hour.... the fire wouldd have had to be more intense and burn far more efficiently.... and when the buildings fell...at some point the falling debris would have met the resistance of the structure and then toppled sideways into the city.... at the very least.

two buildings with two unique damage patterns.... two unique fire distributions.... fell in exactly the same manner? Please!

Then you throw in the occurance of building #7????

but... Osama CONFESSED!!

he he

____

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force

 

you really have to give her

you really have to give her something more than faked cell phone calls and voice morphing technology. im not saying it wasnt used on 9/11, im just saying there is MUCH more to the story to sway her than those 2 things. tell her to watch Loose Change or Zwickers DVD. its not very long, im sure she can handle it.

I don't understand why

I don't understand why everyone is so obsessed with the phone calls being fake. Surely there could have been 'real' hijackings on the planes. Hijackings that were real to the passengers and fake to the hijackers. There were drills running on 9/11 after all and if the planes were switched then it would be even easier to do this. But even if the planes weren't switched then disposable government agents perhaps even the 19 alleged hijackers, could have been carrying out the hijackings completely unaware of what was about to happen.

there were no hijackings

until anyone can show conclusive evidence that there were, hijackings are an unfounded allegation. There is no need to speculate about the phone calls being fake when there is no proof that they came from planes. And Bingham's mom? I think she's an actress, possibly Phyllis Diller. Seriously though, where are the black boxes? Where are the hijackers' boarding passes? Surely the airlines should have copies! Where are all the videos of all the hijackers going through security? It's much easier to lie than it is to prove something is a lie. But we shouldn't have to prove that lies are lies--they should have to prove that what they are saying is true, which they haven't done by any stretch of the imagination. Plus, the number of lies we know they've told should make us 100% skeptical of anything else they have claimed untilk we see rock solid evidence, which phone calls are not.

____

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force

 

The fact is that DRG does

The fact is that DRG does put forward some weak arguments. Focusing on the phone calls, in my opinion, is a mistake. On the other hand you might point out to your very intelligent neice that DRG is talking about personal cellular phone calls and not airphone calls, and that while some of what he says may sound outrageous some of it is, in fact, based on logic and evidence.

Although now I find out that

Although now I find out that Bingham was calling on an Airphone.

Yes ,family members are tough.

I too had a painful revelation about a family member regarding 911. I certainly don't mean to trivialize what happened with you and your niece, but this is probably happening all over the country. My older sister visits from time to time from Mississippi( she lives in Bay Saint Louis,lost her home to Katrina, and lives in a trailer on her property. I live in New Orleans,and was trapped in the French Quarter with my 12 year old daughter during, and weeks after the storm. Months after this I realized the truth about 911.) Once while she was over I brought up that 911 was an inside job,and she didn't have much to say ,seemed put out and disgusted, and acted like I was wrong to bring up "negative issues" while she was over.( this was why I brought up what we had went through with Katrina, and her idea that we should only focus on "positive " things , or whatever.)The next time she was over, I was talking about again, though not to her ,and she blurted out that "Of course 911 was an inside job! What can we do about it ?!" Get over it... blah, blah...)This was worse. I actually told her at this point (not in an angry way) that it was going to be hard to respect her if she was going to be so un-patriotic. This was my older sister that I had always looked up to growing up. And the worst of it is, she has 4 sons. (1 adult and 3 teen agers) This is the last person that can " just get over" criminals running the country because her sons could wind up being cannon fodder for these maniacs.
Your niece might actually be aware that 911 was an inside job, but because she has such young children, the prospect is just too frightening. There really isn't anything she can do. Young children are too time (and effort )consuming. But there is plenty for the rest of us to do. I have some other family members who are also skeptical about 911 truth including an older brother, and you know what? That's fine. Dear old Mom is completely on board, and will be helping me post my 911 truth posters (which took me 6 months to make) all over New Orleans. I have some close friendswho are beginning to see the light, and some of them are people who I would have thought would be the least likely to believe in 911 truth. I know you all know what I'm talking about. Please don't give up hope. Once a truther, always a truther!

Show "David Ray Griffin" by james (not verified)

Your post....

...is despicable!

Did the billionaire land

Did the billionaire land owners in NYC push for an independent investigation into 9/11? No? Who did exactly? Oh yes, the victim's families did.

You're the offensive one.

Despicable?

How am I despicable? I am just quoting him. Did you have any family killed in the attack? If not then Griffin is saying that you weren't angry, because of the limited damage caused by the collapse of the towers.

Devistation beyond repair

If those buildings had toppled sideways the entire city may have burned to the ground.. there would not have been enough firefighters to stop a raging inferno the size of three city blocks... New York may have been a total loss.

and the loss of life would have been much much greater.....

then the American People would have insisted we nuke the Middle East to oblivion.

I still can't understnd why they didn't just come out and say there may have been secondary devices in the parking garage? Would have put much of this to sleep.... at least for a few more years.

He said that people with

He said that people with money might've pressed for an investigation if their buildings had been damaged which is not the same thing as saying nobody cared about the worst attacks in US history. And no, I did not lose a loved one in the attacks and I also did nothing to press for an ivestigation.

Damage

What, and insurance companies didn't mind handing over $5-7 billion, no questions asked? Insurance companies just love handing out money under questionable cirumstances. They never investigate anything. I guess 3000 people dead, 7 buildings destroyed, over $10 billion in physical damage, and hundreds of billions of dollars of damage to the economy wasn't enough to get people angry. Wow, Americans really take things in stride.

There's never really been any doubt in my mind

I felt from the beginning it was an inside job . When I saw the buildings come down I thought how strange but when I heard about a passport being found unharmed and building 7 I had no doubt at all and the more Iv looked the only thing that puzzles me now is the amount of people who CANT see it ? I mean come on ! those building shouldn't even have been struck in the first place , the most protected airspace in the world for goodness sake !
If people can't accept the explosive senario just ask them how heavy do they think those massive steel buildings were with bases going down into the ground 70ft and how does that compare to a plane designed to fly ? How could the planes have brought these giants to a pile of rubble and dust in seconds ?
Each face of the tower was designed to take a force of 11,000,000 lbs the planes would have weighed about 395,000 lbs . As for the fuel how could it have spread its self around the supports in such a way to weaken them all at the same time ,and flown down the lift shafts blowing up the sub levels (even before the plane struck in the North tower)
The lack of any sort of investigation or explanation is an insult to the people who died and their families .
If they want to convince me it wasn't an inside job they are going to have to fully fund an independent enquiry and produce the air traffic controllers tapes ,black boxes all the Pentagon strike footage and names of whoever placed the put on options the days before .
Last but not least come up with a better motive than " they hate our freedoms"tripe !!