Hustling at DailyKos.Com - Some Good Lessons about the Endgame
Yesterday I posted a "diary" (as they are called) at DailyKos.com (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/1/9/162136/7528) about Hustler's recent coverage of 9/11. I've been a member and contributor there for about a year. I honestly wanted to see what the reaction would be among these liberal, progressive, netroot political activists. Attached is a PDF copy of the diary and a few of the many comments.
There were the usual accusations of tinfoil-hatted lunacy along with the usual name-calling and arrogance without a whif of willingness to engage in a meaningful discussion.
The experience taught me an important lesson about how deep lies the need for denial among otherwise intelligent, liberal, moral and empathetic people. But we knew that. They're human, after all. What struck me was the direct relationship between the violence of their reaction and their admirable political activisim: If elements of our government were responsible for 9/11, if indeed control of our government and nation is to some degree outside the democratic process, then the activists of DailyKos haven't much to live for and have been made to appear monumentally foolish, insipid, even clownish. In a way, their comments to me were protestations of their importance, attempts at affirmation fueled by an underlying fear about that they may be sadly, profoundly unimportant.
Official policy at DailyKos prohibits diaries that advocates 9/11 conspiracies and I was aware of that rule. However, my diary did not present any conspiracy theory, did not advocate one, or even suggest what my personal position was outside of the fact that I am a doubter of the official version (FWIW I am a MIHOP believer).
Despite my neutral, historical position, the mere mention of articles about a 9/11 coverup and the presentation of historical information on other governmental cover ups (Watergate) and government false flag terror (Gladio and Northwoods) were more than enough to ignite a small firestorm.
I ended the experience with an appreciation of what our ultimate battle probably is in the 9/11 Truth Movement. It's ultimately not going to be about the evidence. The evidence of controlled demolition, government complicity and far-reaching government cover up is overwhelming for anyone who examines it objectively. At the very least, any serious American who looks at the evidence must come away calling for a new, independent, perhaps international investigation.
But then I thought: that's what happened with the JFK and MLK assassinations: The House Select Committee on Assassinations concluded in 1978 that JFK "was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy." The civil trial in Memphis included a jury verdict on December 8, 1999 that MLK was assassinated by a conspiracy that included "agencies of the government."
I come here now to ask for your help in answering this question:
Even if a Congressional investigation or civil trial concludes that 9/11 resulted from actions by agencies of our own government, will it make a difference to America as a nation?
Our collective need for denial is such that we can actually watch videotape evidence of the controlled demolitions of 9/11 and call them something else that defies known laws of physics. Our need for denial is so strong that even when Congressional investigative committees and juries tell us the truth, we cannot seem to handle it.
Why will the outcome of our work for 9/11 truth be any different than it has been for the assassinations of JFK and MLK?
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Regarding your key question...
You ask: "Even if a Congressional investigation or civil trial concludes that 9/11 resulted from actions by agencies of our own government, will it make a difference to America as a nation?"
The question looks right on to me.
However, if an investigation were to somehow begin soon enough, it could result in calling for an Independent Counsel or so-called Special Prosecutor. What happens after that would depend on who gets appointed to that task.
But that step has legal ramifications which would be difficult to block. Or at least, so I think. Nixon tried it after that step, but his effort failed.
If that Independent Counsel step ever happened, some hint of justice may become possible, again, depending on who gets appointed as Special Prosecutor.
I suspect however that this thing is somewhat too big for that step to take place. The 9-11 production seemingly involves gross treason by the CIA itself, doesn't it? In league with our highest elected officials. And more. The patency of the government itself is at stake. So the whole system has to work against letting the Special Prosecutor step occur.
Maybe the best we can hope for is educating the public well about what sort of system we actually have.
Agreed--Criminal Prosecution Must Be a Part
Your comments are well taken, especially your analysis about the unlikelihood of a Special Prosecutor being appointed. One of the developments I plan on following and helping is the New York Truth Group's continuing efforts to force a criminal investigation by the state attorney--formerly Eliot Spitzer, who is now the gov.
A criminal trial did not occur with the JFK and MLK assassinations. It seems that such a proceeding that could result in serious verdicts, including the firing squad, would focus attention and engender a seriousness heretofore lacking in Americans' willing to see the truth.
"Why will the outcome of our
"Why will the outcome of our work for 9/11 truth be any different than it has been for the assassinations of JFK and MLK?"
That's the big one. I think that the answer is that the 911 truth movement have to become a political force outside the party structures of the repdems.
Mighty enough to ensure that future investigations are truly independent and to make established politicians feel uneasy of their political future.
Very interesting--truth
Very interesting--truth transmogrified into a political force. Given that the political structure is pretty much controlled by the elite, what will it take for such truth-driven political force to have success? Size, passion, action. Things that can break through the fog of fear and denial.
"truth transmogrified into a political force"
I think a regularly occurring day of united truth action could help with that: http://www.911blogger.com/node/5520
Trollrating
Our "friend" Mia Dolan seems to have been an active trollrater. How does one actually trollrate a comment? I remember seeing only "Recommend" boxes next to comments.
One day the little troll button will appear
You have to comment for some period of time with a fair percentage of recommends and few trollratings, then you are a "Trusted User." You don't have to post a diaries -- I only posted one diary the whole time I was there. It goes away if you quit posting there much.
I forget if I got a chance to trollrate Mia. I sure wanted to, because of her foul language and constance references to "Holocaust deniers." According to her standards, if you ever cited to an article by someone who once cited to an article that cited to Christopher Bollyn, then you are a Holocaust denier. And all 9/11 research is based on Chris Bollyn, so we are all Holocaust deniers.
Once I saw Mia and someone else commenting to each other about how they look in the "hidden diaries" section first to find diaries to go attack people.
In other words...
... one keeps posting in discussions, and if one's postings get enough recommends and not too many trollratings, one becomes a "Tusted User".
And because folks like Mia Dolan keep trollrating truthers' posts, truthers are unlikely to end up as Trusted Users.
Did I get it right?
It's hard to say
The FAQ calls it "comment mojo," and I'm just assuming that includes not being troll-rated.
http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/DailyKos_FAQ#Trusted_Users
Being a Trusted User is overrated anyway. I rarely used it. Being able to comment and recommend diairies and comments is enough.
I've been a wimp, relying on people like PeakDavid to throw themselves against the barricades so I could climb over. That's why I'm still there.
Here's a couple of interesting diaries by a guy who tried to sneak controlled demolition talk into diaries by
pretending to criticize controlled demolition. It didn't work, but he had some good discussions with people trying to disprove controlled demolition.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/8/19/155450/434
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/8/20/173443/410
Acutally, it's the "hidden comments" section
that Dolan said she checks first to see where the "action" is. If a comment gets a certain number of trollratings it gets hidden.
Her purpose in life
She seemed particularly sad to me--I pictured a lonely, frustrated, bitter person who is something of a troll and therefore must find validity in the "troll rate" function at dKos.
I have migrated over to the "frog pond"--http://www.boomantribune.com/ -- where folks are a little less extreme.
In Answer to Your Question
I am still stunned that people can view the Zapruder film and still not see that JFK was obviously shot in the front.
I'm still shocked that it's not obvious to people that the Secret Service violated protocol by slowing down the presidential limo after the President had already been hit.
I don't know what it will take for people to wake up. It's quite frankly a great question... and I don't have an answer for you.
Update - I've Been Banned at DailyKos
My "posting privledges" have been taken away at DailyKos. No note of explanation. Just banned.
Now, there is an act of denial.
David
You gave your dKos life so that I could be free
to comment about 9/11. Thank you for your sacrifice.
http://www.dailykos.com/user/Ningen/comments
Do you still have posting privledges at dKos?
Given your comments and willingness to take on their denials with such detailed fact--surely your content rights have been taken away??
Comments seems to be OK
The FAQ doesn't talk about comments as a reason for banning-- just 9/11 diaries and recommending 9/11 diaries.
http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/DailyKos_FAQ#Controversial_Diary_Topics
And I haven't done it much, anyway. Yes, I do still have posting privileges.
Vesa also sacrificed himself on the altar of dKos
last summer. I think I still have posting privileges there, but I am prohibited from visiting by my physician. jk
Thanks for posting about this over here, peakdavid. I was alerted to your diary by another bloggerite and checked it out. I'd say they have deteriorated quite a bit since i used to read Vesa's diaries -- the official trolls seem to have the upper hand even more than before.
BTW, FWIW, I think you want to use quotation marks when you refer to Mia Dolan as "she." Or so I've heard. (I think a feminine persona makes "her" aggravate me even more for complex psycho-social reasons.)
"She" could also be a "dog"
Cus on the internet, you just never know.
This is very insightful
What struck me was the direct relationship between the violence of their reaction and their admirable political activism: If elements of our government were responsible for 9/11, if indeed control of our government and nation is to some degree outside the democratic process, then the activists of DailyKos haven't much to live for and have been made to appear monumentally foolish, insipid, even clownish. In a way, their comments to me were protestations of their importance, attempts at affirmation fueled by an underlying fear about that they may be sadly, profoundly unimportant.
I used to hang out at dKos a lot commenting. I got cognitive dissonance because so much of the discussion was based on the Big Lie that Al Qaeda did 9/11. Though most people objected to the Iraq War on moral grounds, many of them would talk the Democratic Party line that Iraq "takes away from the War on Terror" and "a Democratic president would have gotten bin Ladin."
This name "Ningen" is what I chose on a whim when signing up for dKos. I kept it in hopes of drawing people to 9/11 discussion at my blog that linked is in my dKos profile. Problem is I would have to keep commenting there, and I just cannot handle it anymore. These are intelligent, caring, progressive people that refuse to face facts. Thanks to you, PeakDavid, now I know why.
I used to slip 9/11 talk under the radar in the comments, usually in a subtle way. The comments are pretty much open to that, if you can take getting hassled
I went back today and commented about 9/11, and made a no-planes comment because the planes came up. A guy said "who needs planes when you have politicians to do your work for you" -- which is a good point. I said "who needs a plane when you can just broadcast one on television."
I got two recommends, no trolls. It was only a 79-comment diary, and the diarist and the guy who said "who needs planes" are the ones that recommended me, but still.
Maybe the others couldn't imagine I meant what I said.
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2007/1/10/125549/874/15#c15
That's better than I do here when I talk about the fact that there were no planes on 9/11.
Thanks, Ningen--Let's find the truth
Let's find it and keep on putting it out there -- because ultimately it's either do that or give up.
Right on
I'm not stopping. There's no statute of limitations on murder. The investigation needs to be done right, because there will not be a second chance.
I'm going to have to slow down, though. This thing has taken over my life and it is not sustainable.
rough anlaysis of dKos reactions to 9/11 diaries
I have been working on a blogpost about dKos reactions to 9/11 diaries. It's rough and incomplete, but I might as well post it here. Thank you for an interesting topic, PeakDavid.
-------------------
George Washington got trashed for a couple of 9/11 diaires, one about Sibel Edmonds:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/7/24/134144/813
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/4/152055/7288
But George Washington did slip one through serious ridicule or calls for him to be banned for violating the policy:
Daniel Ellsberg Speaks Out
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/7/19/14515/9803
Which linked here:
http://www.911blogger.com/2006/07/daniel-ellsberg-comes-out-for-911.html
The dKos comments were generally civil, except for attack dog Mia Dolan with her "consorting with holocaust deniers" bit.
This is interesting -- it seems that if you get a famous enough person, respected enough on the left, and as much a part of the establishment as possible, to say that 9/11 might have been allowed to happen, then it is acceptable to post at DKos.
Jon Gold was successful in getting these 9/11 diaries posted at dKos in March 2006 without being attacked:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/3/19/125246/508
At the above link, Mr. Gold says in a comment:
"I don't want to see people get drawn into a controlled demolition debate. Which is obviously what he's trying to do."
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/3/21/191033/629
There's a fair amount of criticism at the above link.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/3/22/182730/851
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/3/25/134518/995
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/3/9/21834/24684
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/1/163451/5317
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/3/14/72952/9594
In this last one, Mr. Gold asks:
"People are awake to it... whenever I see a 9/11 related thread posted, it's usually jumped on by the anti-9/11 Truth people... where are they at? Why won't they play with me?"
So Jon apparently has a formula for getting 9/11 discussed a dKos.
This guy got ridiculed and criticized for posting a diary about the Scripps poll showing many Americans doubt the official story:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/11/13/151143/48
It might seem that a few months before the elections dKos folks would want to discuss the implications of the Scripps polls for meeting their goals of getting Democrats elected, but this did not happen.
Here's a diary from May 2006 asking for clarification about acceptable 9/11 diaries.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/5/3/20044/53782
Here's another meta-diary that was accepted fairly well:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/27/201753/767
The general answer was no, none, not at all, but thanks for asking.
Very little flame on this one, which is surprising.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/2/10/184056/300
dKos's Mia Dolan is a man...
Mia Dolan is the name of some historical psychic that he uses to post. Both he and Kos himself have been warned repeatedly about the blatant lies his site is being used to promote, so the whole gang there is on the "to prosecute" list.
____
Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero
WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force
Ningen--You're doing some important work
Thank you for the reply and please accept my apology for only now seeing it. I really appreciate the time and effort you put into your response with all the dKos links and commentary. Reading the diaries you linked to was an interesting and valuable exercise.
I think the place is worth pounding at and trying some of the strategies that you suggested. It is a left gatekeeper station and we've got to "crash the gates," as Kos is fond of saying and writing.
Personally, I understand Kos's decision to avoid 9/11 discussions for the most part. He is striving for a grassroots/netroots activisim to affect upcoming elections. 9/11 discussions have the potential to derail that effort and give enemies a wedge against him.
Still plan to push.
Thanks again.
I was banned from dailykos...
So my "formula" isn't very good. However, in the thread that you said got a "fair amount of criticism", we have an interesting poll...
"We've been offered a unique opportunity and we must not let this moment pass."
— George W. Bush - State Of The Union Address - January 29th, 2002
All of those are from
2006, you should have seen how I was attacked back in 2004-2005 when I mentioned anything about 9/11.
They are down right hospitable now compared to what they were then.