Weekend Open Thread

Sorry about the site outage tonight - it was some sort of disk issue with the host, and not within my control.

We haven't had an open thread in about forever, so have at it. What's the word?

Thank you for hosting this site :)

I am so very grateful -- I visit it every day. The perpetrators will be brought to justice. Clarity of thought, coupled with persistence and patience in the relentless pursuit of the truth -- and a prayer every day keep me from going stark-raving-mad.

Proof NORAD had remote control of 911 planes.

I read this the other day and I've been waiting for it to hit the truth movement. This is new news to me. Seems like an authentic posting.


The impossible flights by implausible pilots

That story is posted as #26 on my PNAC Plot page

The gist of it is that expert opinions, including a pilot who actually flew two of the jets used to incite the illegal war, hold to the fact that not only could an amateur or expert alike NOT fly those jets that way, but that the jets themselves couldn't do it, AND that their software wouldn't even allow it.
Check the Plot page for more stories about that.

South Tower Plane was a Boeing Military Variant Tanker

=> South Tower Plane. The Evidence Revealed.


Please take the time to review the presentation. Thank you.

interesting points on the Boeings, Zakheim, et al.

thanks for the link!


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force


Boeing Tanker Drone

You're most welcome! What's presented in that thread is a distillation of over three years of collaborative research. In spite of all the ridicule over "the pod" it's a valid frame of reference, all the observations, and the logical, conclusive hypothesis drawn regarding the south tower plane most likely being, in reality, a remotely piloted military variant tanker drone, operating within the command and control grid smokescreen of the 9/11 War Games, headed by tricky Dick Cheney and some insider group as evidence by the "Angel is next" communication threatening Air Force One (that secret call sign changes daily across a number of government agencies).


I believe that ithe planes which hit the towers were tankers. I had seen some research showing that the Military was missing two of their tankers. Would explain the massive fireballs.... additional fuel..... additional weight.

Boeing also got a very lucrative contract for additional tankers after 9/11... that's when I learned that the tankers that we use are just modified commercial jets.

The contract that Boeing got was a bit bizaare though... I don't remember all the details but I believe the Military would lease the jets for some crazy amount... then the government would pay to have the planes converted to tankers which cost millions of dollars.... then at the end of the lease they would pay to have all that apparatus removed.

It was a total sweetheart deal for Boeing..... $$$$ this should keep them quiet
Ignorance is NOT Bliss

Clinton & Puopolo

It appears that the Clinton family and the Puopolo
family are closer than you think. Today I found two
indications that Sonia Puopolo is more than likely
alive and well. One is from The National Communication
Association's 2004 Index of Program Participants and
the other is from data provided by the Federal
Election Commission. And then we have Sonia's
daughter, Tita Puopolo, who published a paper in the
peer-reviewed journal American Behavioral Scientist on
the subject of the Internet and political campaigns.
Tita was also written in the script as a goodwill
ambassador to Saudi Arabia!

Clinton Says ‘I’m In to Win’ 2008 Race
(Notice how much reference is made to using the
Internet in her race.)


Mark Puopolo, Hillary Clinton, Tita Puopolo

The Web and U.S. Senatorial Campaigns 2000
by SONIA "TITA" PUOPOLO Dover, Massachusetts

Political communication tools are an inextricable part
of the political campaign process. As time and
technology advance, the way political information is
disseminated and received is altered. This article
focuses on the use of the Internet in the U.S.
senatorial campaigns of 2000. It looks at how the Web
affects the process of political campaigning. The
relationship between democracy and the Internet is
complex, and the opportunity to make good decisions
about the architecture and design of the 21st century
digital democratic process is here. It is, therefore,
imperative to look at issues and scrutinize how the
Internet can be used. Through an in-depth
cross-sectional analysis of Web site usage among
Democratic and Republican candidates and women and
men, the author shows how U.S. senatorial candidates
used the Internet in the 2000 campaign. The author's
study shows that 88% of the 68 U.S. senatorial
candidates had Web sites for the 2000 elections.



U.S. Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-New York, second
from left, sings a hymn with Marc Anthony Puopolo,
left, Sonia "Tita" Puopolo, and Dominic Puopolo Jr.,
during a memorial service for the Puopolos' mother,
Sonia Morales Puopolo, at Trinity Church in Boston,
Saturday, Oct. 6, 2001. Sonia Morales Puopolo, of
Boston,was a former ballet dancer who died aboard
American Airlines Flight 11 when hijackers crashed it
into the World Trade Center in New York on Sept. 11.



(Peter Hanson was written into the script for the
Zacarias Moussaoui trial and Sonia Puopolo was written
into the script for the Mounir el Motassadeq trial.)

Act II proved to be an emotional tit-for-tat that even
Hollywood would have had trouble matching. A tearful
Dominic Puopolo, an American whose mother was sitting
in seat 3J on the plane Mohammad Atta flew into the
World Trade Center, pleaded for the highest possible

"You have a chance to rebuild your life and be back
with your family (after serving out his sentence).
Others don't," Puopolo said in a statement meant for
Motassadeq. "Your life is not over, but my mom's is."
He said he wanted justice rather than revenge. "My
future is ruined"

Puopolo has been following the trial against
Motassadeq for years and struggled to stifle tears as
he spoke. He described in detail how the Sept. 11
attacks destroyed his family. "We still suffer from
the events of that day and will do so for many years
to come," he said. "And this man is responsible, even
if he was only indirectly involved in the planning."

Motassadeq, for his part, addressed Puopolo directly
for the first time. "Mr. Puopolo, I understand your
suffering," he stammered, his voice nearly breaking.
"The same thing is being done to me, my kids, my
parents, my family. My future is ruined." He then
attacked prosecutor Walter Hemberger. The prosecutor,
Motassadeq said, had twisted the facts and was never
really interested in the truth. "For you," Motassadeq
said raising his voice, "it was a game, and now you
have won.



Saudi Global Exchange

We encourage you to read about Clinton Global Iniative
project and learn about the historic visit of Sonia
"Tita" Puopolo, who was the first family member of a
9/11 victim to visit Saudi Arabia at the Jeddah
Economic Forum. Tita was a classmate of co-founder
Faisal F. Al Saud and a student of co-founder Dr.
J.Gregory Payne at Emerson College in Boston.


Sonia Puopolo, Bill Clinton, Tita Puopolo

The National Communication Association held it's 90th
annual meeting from November 11 to the 15th, 2004.
On page 32 in the Index of Program Participants Sonia
Puopolo as well as her daughter, Tita Puopolo, were
listed. Keep in mind that Sonia Puopolo is not listed
in the Social Security Death Index and that
soniapuopolo.com was created on 9/16/01.


Data provided by the Federal Election Commission shows
Sonia Puopolo making a $3,000.00 contribution in 2002.


September 11th Victims' Relief Fund

SEPTEMBER11.ORG was created for the September 11th
Victims' Relief Fund. To calculate EDT you subtract 4
hours from coordinated universal time (UTC). So this
domain was established at 10:20 AM or 15 minutes after
the Two World Trade Center collapsed and 8 minutes
BEFORE One World Trade Center collapsed.



Domain ID:D77176311-LROR
Created On:11-Sep-2001 14:20:46 UTC
Last Updated On:26-Oct-2006 03:56:46 UTC
Expiration Date:11-Sep-2007 14:20:46 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:eNom401, Incorporated (R21-LROR)
Registrant ID:NN15899-BR
Registrant Name:NULL NULL
Registrant Organization:Victims Fund
Registrant Street1:2509 E. Broad St.
Registrant City:Richmond
Registrant State/Province:VA
Registrant Postal Code:23223
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Phone:+01.8042258660
Registrant Email:kwest@ego.net
Admin ID:KW748-BR
Admin Name:Keith West
Admin Organization:eGO Inc.
Admin Street1:2509 E. Broad St.
Admin City:Richmond
Admin State/Province:VA
Admin Postal Code:23223
Admin Country:US
Admin Phone:+1.8042258660
Admin Email:kwest@ego.net
Tech ID:KW748-BR
Tech Name:Keith West
Tech Organization:eGO Inc.
Tech Street1:2509 E. Broad St.
Tech City:Richmond
Tech State/Province:VA
Tech Postal Code:23223
Tech Country:US
Tech Phone:+1.8042258660
Tech Email:kwest@ego.net


8:45 a.m. (all times are EDT): A hijacked passenger
jet, American Airlines Flight 11 out of Boston,
Massachusetts, crashes into the north tower of the
World Trade Center, tearing a gaping hole in the
building and setting it afire.

9:03 a.m.: A second hijacked airliner, United Airlines
Flight 175 from Boston, crashes into the south tower
of the World Trade Center and explodes. Both buildings
are burning.

9:17 a.m.: The Federal Aviation Administration shuts
down all New York City area airports.

9:21 a.m.: The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey
orders all bridges and tunnels in the New York area closed.

9:30 a.m.: President Bush, speaking in Sarasota, Florida,
says the country has suffered an "apparent terrorist attack."

9:40 a.m.: The FAA halts all flight operations at U.S.
airports, the first time in U.S. history that air traffic
nationwide has been halted.

9:43 a.m.: American Airlines Flight 77 crashes into
the Pentagon, sending up a huge plume of smoke.

Evacuation begins immediately.

9:45 a.m.: The White House evacuates.

9:57 a.m.: Bush departs from Florida.

10:05 a.m.: The south tower of the World Trade Center
collapses, plummeting into the streets below. A
massive cloud of dust and debris forms and slowly
drifts away from the building.

10:08 a.m.: Secret Service agents armed with automatic
rifles are deployed into Lafayette Park across from
the White House.

10:10 a.m.: A portion of the Pentagon collapses.

10:10 a.m.: United Airlines Flight 93, also hijacked,
crashes in Somerset County, Pennsylvania, southeast of

10:13 a.m.: The United Nations building evacuates,
including 4,700 people from the headquarters building
and 7,000 total from UNICEF and U.N. development

10:22 a.m.: In Washington, the State and Justice
departments are evacuated, along with the World Bank.

10:24 a.m.: The FAA reports that all inbound
transatlantic aircraft flying into the United States
are being diverted to Canada.

10:28 a.m.: The World Trade Center's north tower
collapses from the top down as if it were being peeled
apart, releasing a tremendous cloud of debris and


We've gone over this Amanda...

It's simple.

JANICE MATTHEWS DID NOT REGISTER SEPTEMBERELEVENTH.ORG on 9/11/01! Your finding is not so odd at all. Someone else registered the site that day. They didn't do anything with it. Matthews came along in 03 and took over the site. End of story. You're not fooling anyone by posting this crap over and over.

The True Story Exposing Amanda's BS posts

"Hi Thomas,

This is Emanuel Sferios, webmaster for the 9/11
Visibility Project. I'm actually the one who
registered the domain on 9/11/2001. The story is quite
interesting, in fact. You see, 9/11 was/is my
birthday, and the morning of the attacks I was so
upset because I knew that this day was going to be
used to promote war, that at 10AM I got online and
registered a bunch of different versions of
september-11.com. My thinking was only to preserve
some purity for my birthday, believe it or not. It was
only later I decided to create the 9/11 Visibility
Project. Janice Matthews is a friend, and I recently
transferred ownership of the domain to her, since I
have left the US and no longer plan to do 9/11 truth

Here is an article from the SF Chronicle, by the way,
from January 2002 that mentions the "mad rush" to buy
9/11 domain names on the morning of the attacks. The
article even mentions me at the end, because the
reporter contacted me back then. It seems I wasn't the
only one to do such a thing. In fact, I remember that
I had registered for 20 domain names that morning, but
by the time my credit card went through, 15 out of the
available names were purchased out from under me at
that exact moment. I ended up only with five of them.
The best ones I got, I think, are this one, as well as
these two...


Anyway here's the link to that article...



Game, Set, Match, go away A-MAN-DUH!


SEPTEMBER11.ORG was created for the September 11th
Victims' Relief Fund and has nothing to do with JANICE MATTHEWS.

Legal: September 11th Victims' Relief Fund (the "Fund") is a Virginia non-stock corporation. The Fund's Federal Tax Identification Number is 54-2051381. The Fund has registered with the Commissioner of Agriculture and Consumer Services of the Commonwealth of Virginia as required by law. Registration does not imply endorsement of a public solicitation for contributions. The Fund has applied for tax exempt status under Internal Revenue Code Section 501(c)(3)

The following individuals and others are on the board:

Delegate Sam Nixon, Virginia House of Delegates
Bob Stolle, Director, Greater Richmond Technology Council
Paula Gulak, Principal, Sycom Technologies
Anne Marie McHugh, President, Junior Achievement Central Virginia Andrew White, Partner, LeClair Ryan Law Firm
Steve Piascik, CPA Madge Bush, Public Relations, Capital One
Bill Pond, President, 3rd Millennium Group
Don Just, President, Work Inc.
Mark Raper, President, Carter Ryley Thomas Public Relations and Marketing
John Crews, Business Operations Director, Applied Materials, Richmond, VA
John Whitlock, The Whitlock Group
Kelly O'Keefe, CEO, Emergence
Keith West, President, eGO Inc.


So you're admitting

That the stuff you posted about Janice Matthews is BS propaganda?

Not at All

I'm showing you I'm correct in my statement and you were wrong.


You are incorrect about Matthews, I just showed you she did not register the site on 9/11/01. There isn't anything more you can say amanda, your crap is tired around here.

loose change - final cut

where did they get their funding!? in hustler, they're quoted at $20 million. i've since heard that it's much lower, but still quite a substantial investment for somebody (or some group). i've heard that a clinton/zelikow supporter is part of it, which may explain their insistence on leaving bs in the film (admitted by jason bermas) and not addressing anything to do with israel, i.e. mossad/pnac/silverstein connections. what do you think, and why haven't the lc guys debunked this claim if it doesn't hold any water?
btw, i wouldn't be posting here if it weren't for 'loose change'
it opened my eyes...maybe a bit too much for their own good

Ah, what "bs" are you referring to being left in LC? Also, I

don't believe the scope of film would allow them to go deeply into revealing Israeli involvement with 9/11. Once we get enough people to actually understand that 9/11 was an inside job, other videos/books could go further into an Israeli angle.

the scope?

come on, LC was all over the place! down to the "biggest gold heist in history". surely the dancing Israelis could have been mentioned... assuming we take the LC guys as honest folk, someone is definitely keen to make their movie be seen as representative of the movement. it wouldn't surprise me one whit if it was the same people behind Screw Loose Change. Point/Counterpoint to distract from the real issue of who was ultimately behind the Attack on America that according to Larry Silverstein's friend Netanyahu was good--well, not good but that would generate immediate sympathy for Israel. Pro-Israel fanatics provided the false case for war against Iraq (see Doug Feith and the Lie Factory--the Pentagon OSP). AIPAC caught spying-AGAIN. And even with Democrats in power, the House Speaker is AIPAC-loyalist Nancy "America and Israel now and forever" Pelosi. Helping to catapult the propaganda is none other than Wolf Blitzer, former reporter for the Jerusalem Post. Is it that hard to see who is really attacking America?

Israel planted explosives throughout the towers & WTC-7?

Israel shot a missile at the Pentagon? Israel made NORAD stand down? I don't think so.

I'm not saying Israelis weren't involved in one way or another, but an intoductory video to 9/11 truth can only cover so much. Maybe the final cut will include the dancing Israelis or something.

Israel had 200 agents deported after 9/11?

Some of these agents lived just houses down from the alleged hijacker patsies? What makes you think some of these Israeli agents were not in fact among the team that rigged the towers and building 7 for demolition? Can you really see Americans doing it? I can't--no matter how much we hate each other in this country, good luck finding a crew to secretly rig a huge office building to potentially murder 30,000 or more of your fellow citizens. No, 9/11 WAS an act of war. And the only American thing about it was the fact that a gang of traitors decided to go along with it. Obviously I'm not saying that your average Israeli bears America any ill will, but the plot had its origins in a particular group of global mercenaries who did what they did to benefit themselves, their elite paymasters, and their global outposts, one of which happens to be in Israel. Sorry buddy, but it's as plain as day. This is not about the people pf America or Israel--this is about global fascists who lead both by the nose with lies, fear, and misdirection. There is no good reason to deny this so obvious reality.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force


Of course we all know that the Israeli & U.S. Gov't have been

partners in crime for decades. However, as posted below, the real masters-of-the-world who pull all the stirngs are the Rockefeller/Brzezinski/Kissinger/Bush Sr types who comprise the CFR/Bilderberg/Trilateral organizations!!!

not denying it!

In the end, a mass of land does not attack a bunch of people. It is people who are responsible for all these things. Also, average everyday citizens do not start wars and can usually get along with one another absent the influence of the elite warmaking mind-fucking rich bastards. The truth must be used not to villify any group except those who conspire in secret to lie to and manipulate the world's people into pointless bloody conflicts.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force


The Israeli role versus Pakistani

Hi Real Truther. I have read the stuff implicating Israeli agents just like everyone else here. I notice that Paul Thompson's work implicates Pakistani intelligence far more directly and obviously -- at least on the surface of it all. Thompson also looks into the Israel connections. But his Timeline features Pakistan in what looks like an undeniable role.

Now how on earth could Pakistan be part of a Zionist conspiracy?

Do also look at this link, below. It calls into question the Israeli evidence as possibly planted! and the whole Zionist thrust as useful. Why? Because it distracts, and is full of emotion and useful commotion. The fellow calls into question the Pakistan connection too, for the same reason. He seems to feel that 9-11 was an all-inside job.

I do not have any idea of the merit of his opinions but simply present what he says on the Israeli connection as yet another potential blind alley. Here it is:


Again, this article convinced me at least to stop looking at the intricacies of this mess and instead focus on the obvious.

Cui Bono

It is my opinion that the main benificiaries stood to be the oil industry and the weapons industry (if every thing went as planned.) It's no secret that the Bush admin is heavily weighted with oil industry insiders and war types, so a big finger could be pointed in that direction. If others were involved, whether Israeli, Pakistani or other, they would likely be connected thru the above mentioned links. We can speculate and argue who was actually involved till the end of time and never solve the labyrinth of lies and find the real truth. Best to keep demanding an open and legitimate investigation so at least some of the truth will be revealed.

Towards a legitimate investigation

Phaedrus, good post, and good Latin too.

You said, "Best to keep demanding an open and legitimate investigation so at least some of the truth will be revealed." That's it. There is where all our efforts need to go.

But figuring out how to get a legitimate investigation is no small problem. Who selects the commissioners? What shall the criteria be for serving on the commission? How can we ensure adequate funding, sopoena powers, and access to classified documents? Note that classification is a wonderful tool for obfuscation.

My problem with the above

Hi student, I read the article and I have to say I'm not convinced. What the writer is suggesting is truly a grand conspiracy, where the WASP establishment planted evidence linking Israel to 9/11 in order to set them up as a red herring and muddy the waters. I don't reject the idea on principle, but it just doesn't square. Are we to believe that Carl Cameron's report on the Israeli spy ring, and the reports of the dancing Israelis that were covered even in the Forward, a Jewish magazine, were somehow made up? And to support this WASPy anti-Jewish fiction the dancing Israelis went on an Israeli talk show to admit that they had done everything that was said about them, but that they were innocently documenting the event? Sorry, I don't buy it. No doubt Cheney and Rumsfeld and maybe even Bush were in the know, but there is an 800 pound elephant in the room with them that it seems many people are very reluctant to talk about, and I think there are very good reasons for that.

As far as Pakistan goes, and the work of Paul Thompson for that matter, reports in the Times of India repeating what some anonymous person from the FBI said about a person using a pseudonym who transferred money to an alleged hijacker who no one can place at the scene and who in fact is known to have consorted with strippers, drank alcohol, gambled, and eaten pork shortly before his alleged suicide mission, well, the only thing I can say about that is--what exactly do you think that proves?

On the other hand, Israel has a history of staging attacks and blaming them on Arabs, of being fairly two-faced when dealing with their "best friend" America, had partisans involved in every disastrous post 9/11 decision of this administration, and has a lobby, AIPAC, that despite repeated spying scandals has the enduring support not only of Democratic house speaker Nancy Pelosi but also of dual Israeli-American director of homeland security Michael Chertoff, and is rarely treated with anything but kid gloves in the American corporate media. No one who is seriously trying to understand what happened and who did what before, on, and since 9/11 can escape notice of deep Israeli involvement.

Attempts to downplay the significance of this reality only make it seem as if there really is a widespread conspiracy to protect Israeli interests over those of everyone else's. We did not create this situation in order to implicate Israel. Israel is implicated. Supporters of Israel have had plenty of time to look in the mirror and ask themselves if they are allowing their loyalty to cloud their judgement, and have only dug themselves in deeper by failing to acknowledge even the slightest hint of malignancy in the US/Israeli relationship. They're strident and often hysterical posturing has left them isolated and left non-Israel-fanatical Jews around the world in a difficult position--be with the Zionist radicals or against them, and thus tarred as self-hating and anti-Israel.

As the truth about 9/11 becomes known, I pray daily that more and more Jewish people will think long and hard about the implications of offering unwavering support to Israel--that they will be ALLOWED, and find it possible to see the truth, and stand for what is right. If anyone can save Israel at this point, it is progressive Jews worldwide who can bring the state back from the brink of the self-destruct sequence initiated by the rabid right-wing Zionists and their American and global elite cohorts who just went too far this time, blinded as they were not just by their peculiar vision and interpretation of "security" but by the immense wealth that they seized with their bloodied hands at the expense of countless innocent lives...

And then it will be up to America to restore the world's faith in its democratic processes, and to begin to make amends for the untold suffering caused by our inattention to truth, by the failure of our responsibility as free people to hold our leaders accountable for their actions. The sooner the truth is revealed, no matter how shocking, the sooner the world can begin to heal and ALL of its people learn to coexist peacefully and not be led by evil people down paths of fear and hatred.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force


Real Truther, you ask...

Real Truther, you ask: "Are we to believe that Carl Cameron's report on the Israeli spy ring, and the reports of the dancing Israelis that were covered even in the Forward, a Jewish magazine, were somehow made up?"

I don't know. We all lack the necessary information. I do see that you have posed a valid question.

I also think that, for the most part, it is much too early to assign blame with anything resembling certainty. That is why we need a real investigation, to look unflinchingly wherever the leads go. Assigning blame too soon can make investigation more difficult. Disinformation methods understand that and can sometimes make use of it.

Actually, I remain stuck on the bigger problem issue of how to get a real investigation. Shall prime suspects be put in charge of designing the investigation, again? The needs for independence go beyond what we have provisions for in the Constitution.

sure, the way I see it...

Is that the more awareness there is, the more pressure. the more pressure, the more legitimate an investigation we'll get. in other words, the best thing we can do as truthers is to continue to raise awareness. arguing minutiae or even maxutiae (more great latin there!) is pointless if it is not accompanied by growing awareness. Like they say in 9/11 Mysteries, when enough of us know, something will happen. that's because when enough of us know, something will HAVE to happen. The legitimacy of the system--people's respect for their government and for the social order--will be at stake.

Think of it in terms of the free market--we want a better product (more truthful). To get this better product we need competition, not the "truth monopoly" that effectively is the big media. A return to the fairness doctrine and to stricter ownership rules may help. But we can't expect even that to be done without MORE AWARENESS.

The good news is that awareness is growing exponentially--never mind what it seems like--it is happening. The big media will continue to act as if nothing is going on, but as such they will be on shakier and shakier ground. The big papers are losing money--the big media conglomerates are losing audience. People are shunning hollywood crap. It is happening. While we can't afford to rest any time soon, we have the momentum, and it is going to be nearly impossible to take it away from us.

Every indicator, from attention paid to my displays in the streets, from sales ranks on Amazon for pro and anti-truth books, to the increasing traffic--especially locally at Harvard--to my website (see my sig--it is apparently too hot, too controversial, or too something to have blogger include it on their list to the left there!) tells me that word is getting around. Slowly, for sure, but steadily. And that's what we would expect, given the pressures on people to ignore us.

So how will we get a real investigation? Because there will come a time, we will reach a point, where we will so vastly outnumber deniers, where you will be hearing about truth on every corner and in every café and in classrooms, at the rodeo, in church, mosque, synagogue, and dianetics lab, at sports events, in the supermarket... the day is coming when everyone will know and arguing will be pointless--questions will have to be answered--about the crime AND the cover-up.

Once enough people know that they have been denied justice, that the victims of 9/11 have been denied justice, that the first responders have been denied justice--people will continue to obstruct justice at their peril.

It's as simple as that!


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force


Yes, they did....

1. Israel planted explosives throughout the towers & WTC-7?

Sure, why not? It is documented that owner Larry Silverstein was on intimate terms with Ariel Sharon. He could have been persuaded to look the other way while Mossad penetrated the company controlling security at the buildings. Mossad using friendly companies to do their work is well documented by such authors as Victor Ostrovsky.

2. Israel shot a missile at the Pentagon?

No, they didn't; and neither did anyone else. AAL77 hit the Pentagon. [Note: let's not turn this thread into a forum to debate this issue for the umpteenth time.]

3. Israel made NORAD stand down?

Yes, they did. This could have been accomplished by a small number of moles within the NORAD command structure.

This wouldn't be the first time American forces were stood down while Americans were slaughtered by Israelis. While the USS Liberty was enduring a murderous assault from the forces of the Israeli military on June 8, 1967, four F-4 Phantom jets were scrambled from the carrier USS America stationed with the Sixth Fleet in the Mediterranean. Before reaching the Liberty, however, the fighters were mysteriously ordered back to base on the direct orders of Secretary of Defense, Robert S. McNamara, and the assault was allowed to continue.

Bullshit! AA-77 did not hit the Pentagon!

Try planted explosives and/or a missile!

don't take the bait


Scientific Evidence?

I personally believe PNAC and other elites including the Bush Crime Family had a hand in bringing down the towers etc, but I haven't been able to counter this video sent to me by a skeptic of our theory.


Have you seen it? It is only 45 seconds or whatever, but... What do you guys make of it?

what is this video alleged to prove about 9/11?

It is a small fighter jet hitting a massive block of concrete (simulating the wall surrounding a nuclear reactor) and being atomized as a result... I'm not sure what your pals are holding over you with it...


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force


Plane Disintegrating.

Yeah Truther. I understand that, but no one I knew had ever seen a plane or large aircraft completely disappear from a collision, like the official story claims the flight into the Pentagon did. I didn't think engines and all that would just disappear. This video openned my eyes at least to the fact that an airplane could in fact disintegrate upon impact of a fortified wall etc like at the Pentagon. I know this video made a lot of people skeptical about the claim that no plane could have hit the Pentagon. But regardless I chose in my truth efforts to concentrate on the less controversial things like Building #7 and the free fall speed at which all the buildings fell at into their own footprints. I just thought we should know what others are saying etc about planes being demolished etc. Anyway. Peace and I hope we keep gaining ground on this. Every other major event has been scrutinized in the major media (History Channel, Discovery Channel, etc) like the JFK murder and Pearl Harbor and stuff. It just seems like in time this will be brought to light as well and be much harder to spin due to the large amount of scientific evidence etc. I do understand in this video that the plane and wall and even speed are different than exactly what occurred at the Pentagon however.

Surely one of the most

Surely one of the most curious things about the supposed AAL77 hit on the Pentagon is that a non-military jet was able to penetrate its air defences at all. Think about it if you haven't already. We've grown up knowing just how central the Pentagon is to the US govt. We KNOW that it WAS, AND STILL IS, ONE OF THE MOST GUARDED BUILDINGS ON THE ENTIRE PLANET.

It has anti-aircraft batteries positioned to take down any unauthorised planes AUTOMATICALLY. How would a cumbersome commercial airliner even get close to the building? Were are the videos showing the plane strike? (unfortunately, they've probably been destroyed and you will never see them).

You really don't need to get bogged down in 'trivial' matters though, regarding 'flight 77'. Focus on things considered irrefutable, i.e. Building 7, Bush's ties to Bin Laden family, PNAC etc. etc.

If you want to make people more curious, tell them about the Put Options that were placed on AAL and United Airlines stocks in the days running up to September 11. These cannot be made anonymously. It implies that AT LEAST ONE PERSON HAD FOREKNOWLEGE OF AN IMPENDING EVENT. Wouldn't it be interesting to know how this/these investor(s) figured in the grand sceme of things? Your government and the 9/11 Commission seem to think it isn't 'important'.

Sort it out, people!

The BENEFICIAL revolutionary change is in sight -- keep up the good work!

disintegrating plane

Orangutan, there is one glaring difference. Whatever hit the pentagon left a circular hole through three concrete reinforced rings of the pentagon. Therefore the disappearing plane doesnt prove anything.

OK, don't take any bait, just answer a few simple questions:

How could a huge Boeing 757 fit through a 16' initial impact hole???

What happened to the plane??? Where were the 2 giant engines, the 250 seats, the luggage, the bodies??? How could they have IDed the passengers with DNA when the plane itself disappeared???

How did Osama's lackies fly it all the way there from Ohio/Ketucky???

Why does our Gov'y absolutely refuse to release any clear video of what happened there on 9/11???

Conclusion: AA-77 did NOT strike the Pentagon!

AA 77 hit the Pentagon. It is irrefutable.

Stop with your nonsense, ok?

Thank you.

It's "irrefutable" according to the government's version, not

according to the facts.

1. That the hole was only

1. That the hole was only 16' is one of the biggest myths bandied about within the truth movement. The 16' hole size is the result of some photographs taken when the rest of the opening was obscured by fire retardant being used immediately after the crash:


2. The plane went into the Pentagon building! Why is that so hard to believe? It was traveling extremely fast, close to 500mph. The plane didn't "disappear"; they just didn't bother to show it to you, maybe to encourage false and ridiculous conspiracy theories like No-Boeing-Pentagon that tend to discredit legitimate 9/11 research. They IDed the passengers using DNA techniques that only need a few body fragments.

2. Osama's lackeys didn't fly the plane there; they had nothing to do with 9/11 at all. AAL77 was most likely piloted by a remote navigation system like Global Hawk. The plane was not intercepted because a stand-down was engineered by the conspirators using traitorous officers within NORAD and NEADS.

3. The government refuses to to release evidence because they have an incentive to mislead the truth movement, to divert attention from more legitimate evidence of the conspiracy.

don't worry Anon, most people agree with you (and me)

AA-77 did not hit the Pentagon. It's obvious. The one video they've shown has five frames or so that indicate clearly it was not AA-77. It shows what is more likely to bhe some kind of missile--there seems to be a vapor trail in the frame which would not be coming out of an airliner, even if an airliner could fly so low to the ground and leave the minimal damage observed to the Pentagon and the lawn in front of the alleged impact hole. People will say all kinds of things that don't make sense, like the government won't release all the other videos because they want to promote disbelief in the official story. That just makes no sense. The most abundant and readily available thing the coverup folks have is a bunch of liars willing to troll internet sites and even pose as legitimate researchers. What they have precious little of (read nothing) is actual evidence of their claims. There is something in particular about the Pentagon event that some people are determined not to let be known. I've run into bona fide shills who will pretty much grant me that the towers were blown up but who insist on preserving the AA 77 myth. My best guess as to why is that the "people on AA77" are in fact alive and well, as are, most likely, the "people on" all the other "flights". This creates an interesting dynamic whereby for some people it will be of paramount importance to preserve belief in just one of the flights, if that's the one on which their person of interest is supposed to have died. The consequences for people who tried to fake their deaths on any of these flights will of course be quite harsh--especially given the fact that many of them probably counted on their "death" to relieve them of debts, etc., and to collect (through their families) the $1.5 million victims comp fund). It's criminal science, not rocket science. :)


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force


Thank you R. T. for a most sensible post re: AA-77!


Shills and thrills and belly-aches

There you go again, convicting virtually anybody who disagrees on your version of the Pentagon attack. I would agree that there's a lot of conflicting evidence, apart from all the missing evidence. However, in my view suggesting that the latter is premeditated by the perpetrators to invoke confusion and disbelief is only half as outrageous as claiming the relevant flight's passengers are still alive. To me, the Pentagon impact footage shows f*ck all - not AA77, not a missile, just a blurred pointy thing and a huge explosion. My advice to you is to try to stay open minded until some real conclusive evidence emerges.

you're wrong

the Pentagon impact footage cannot possibly show AA77--it MAY show a missile. I think that says a lot. As far as my suggestion that a) the "passengers" of AA77 are alive being outrageous, in fact doubly outrageous as the fact that b) cover-up agents are out in force muddying the waters, you can argue all you want.

Until I see conclusive evidence I will not only not believe the official claims, but I will tend to DISbelieve them and propose what I consider more plausible alternatives. Shills often give themselves away by their tendency to accept on face value aspects of the official account for which there is no real evidence. Why believe any of it?

Real skeptics woulld not be nearly so eager to accept as fact things like "those passengers really died". And if you tell me "I know because I knew someone on the flight", I will offer you my insincere non-heartfelt condolences, like I did to the guy who told me that on a bus and then couldn't tell me the correct flight number. Yeah, his friend's death REALLY broke him up.

When there is so much BS flying around, your best bet is to insist on hard evidence for everything. And to distrust EVERYTHING that is said by people who you have already determined to have lied, even once. A single lie is like a single cockroach--there are ALWAYS more of them where that one came from.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force


How can I be wrong..

..if I don't take a stand on the Pentagon attack?

missing the forest for the trees

Whoever believes the Boeing actually crashed there is missing what is only obvious: there is no Boeing in any of the pictures. Just like the boxcutting hijackers are much more unlikely than and inside job, is it much more unlikely that they somehow managed to create such a weird scene at the Pentagon with all of the passenger seats, luggage and plane disappearing, than that they simply had some lying witnesses there. Lies come easier than fitting a Boeing into a small hole.

Pentagon attack papers, 911.

Pentagon attack papers, 911. First bombs went off.

Have you read Barbara Honegger and Jim Mars "Pentagon Attack papers".
They say a bomb went off in the building at 9:32 am on September 11th. THey say there are eyewitnesses.
The bomb hit the part of the pentagon which would have done the auditing on the 2.3 trillion dollars missing that Rumsfeld mentioned the day before. There are clocks that stopped at 9:32. Witnesses will corroborate this.


When Honegger told William Rodriguez this he was of course felt very validated, since he also experienced bombs going off before the plane hit the WTC building he was in.

Also, further proof for an inside job if the bombs were planted on the inside of the pentagon. And if they were planted outside the building then it means that 911 had to be a bigger conspiracy than just 19 hijackers, which we all know but would convince those sitting on the fence.

Also, it further collaborates the use of bombs in WTC 1, 2 and 7.
If this is true then it shows the SOP (standard operating procedure for the perps) was to use bombs in all the buildings that were destroyed on 911. Further validating that bombs were in the WTCs also.

Also, she talks about a plane hitting the Pentagon, a small military plane.

Kevin Barrett had Honegger on last Saturday. Here is the url.

We need a new 911 investigation to make the truth known.

Pakistani ISI Connections

The information that General Mahmoud Ahmad (then head of Pakistani ISI) ordered Omar Sheikh (member of ISI) to wire $100,000 into the bank account of lead hijacker, Mohammed Atta was not included in LC. Mahmoud Ahmad was known to be in America on regular visits of consultation with senior officials in the U.S. administration in the weeks before and after 9/11 and was with Republican Congressman Porter Goss and Democratic Senator Bob Graham in Washington, discussing Osama bin Laden over breakfast, when the attacks of September 11, 2001 happened. This was not mention either. What does this tell you?

Nothing promising

It tells me you are counting on hearsay that can be spun many different ways.

Indian intelligence swears

Indian intelligence swears by it, and the US Federal Bureau of Investigation has confirmed the story: Indian intelligence even supplied Saeed's cellular-phone numbers.


Indian intelligence...

Would have no reason to falsely implicate Pakistan, eh?


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force


O.k.....you win....THE

O.k.....you win....THE ZIONISTS planned the whole thing.......Eric Hufschmidt was right all along!

good, I'm glad it's settled!

For the record, Hufschmid is right about a lot of things, but he acts like a prick half the time, and has a way of being offensive. Given that his long lost half sister is married to one of Rupert Murdoch's sons, I don't totally discount the possibility of his being a disinfo plant whose role is to make the truth movement seem anti-semitic with his over the top accusations of poeple being "crypto-Jews" etc. Then again, maybe it's his style and he's sincere. In any case, I always say that this is not about personalities, but about facts, and Hufschmid has gotten out a lot of good facts and before most of us all were truthers, so whatever. There is no question that Zionists were involved in 9/11, since Silverstein is an avid one.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force


".. I don't totally discount

".. I don't totally discount the possibility of his being a disinfo plant whose role is to make the truth movement seem anti-semitic with his over the top accusations of poeple being "crypto-Jews" etc."

Are you talking about yourself? Hmmmmm?!

much better url for the Pentagon Attack papers by Honegger

This url is a pdf that is formatted nicely with footnotes.


Wow you guys just sound

Wow you guys just sound paranoid nowadays. Loose Change, the most popular video in exposing 9/11 Truth ever made is made by shills because they don't expose exactly what you want them to in their video.
The makers of the movie made thousands of T-Shirts and gave them out on 9/11/06 but they are shills because the T-Shirts didn't say "Israel May have played a huge part in 9/11" on the back.
The makers of the movie are very passionate about exposing 9/11 Truth and they have had 2 articles features in mainstream magazines in the last year. But they are shills because they don't expose what I want them to expose!

That's like a judge throwing out the testimony of a key witness because the witness doesn't know ALL aspects of the case and exactly who did and it why.

Everyone who is calling everyone in the movement shills (who have done 100 times more help than you talking about what they didn't cover on the internet), should not be taken seriously any more.

Just make your own movie and show us all the important points we don't know about.

WHO CARES WHO DID IT AND WHY RIGHT NOW!?! All we have to show is that the 9/11 Commission report is DEAD wrong and even the tamest 9/11 researcher knows that already so we are succeeding!
Stop bringing each other down because they didn't expose all the points and suspects! Remember, there are thousands of smoking guns and red flags, it would be almost impossible to name them all!

Can't agree more..

The shill-calling in this place is getting on my tits too. Happened to me too quite recently actually. People that have been called shills at 911blogger include the LC crew, Ruppert, DRG, Thompson, Tarpley and so on and so forth...

don't forget Zionist mole Jon Gold!!!!!!..........

haha just kidding buddy! :-)

911dvds@gmail.com - $1 DVDs shipped - email for info

thanks DHS..

..for making me laugh out loud again

You got me...

Oh, by the way, Israeli Prime Minister Olmert is getting calls to resign.

As AP reports...

"Police are investigating him for corruption. His military chief has resigned. His office manager is under house arrest, and an inquiry commission is looking into his alleged mishandling of last summer's Lebanon war."

Hmmm... I wonder why he resisted an inquiry.

I wonder if it has anything to do with the report from Seymour Hersh that the United States, and Israel planned for the Lebanon War prior to the kidnappings of those two soldiers?

"We've been offered a unique opportunity and we must not let this moment pass."

— George W. Bush - State Of The Union Address - January 29th, 2002


the Israeli soldiers were in Lebanon when they were captured, so "kidnapping" is not exactly accurate. that was what the AP first reported, and what actually happened. Of course we're no strangers here to mysteriously changing news or history...


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force


I thought...

The LATimes reported that 2 Lebanese were kidnapped the day prior to the two soldiers being "kidnapped?"

"We've been offered a unique opportunity and we must not let this moment pass."

— George W. Bush - State Of The Union Address - January 29th, 2002

soldiers captured in Lebanon


Here's a good story from antiwar.com by Joshua Frank about the bogus "kidnapping"... weren't there two militants arrested in Palestinian territory before the kdinapping? I thought they were Palestinian, though, not Lebanese. Though I think Hezbollah might have been eager to capture the Israelis alive precisely to bargain for their release... Anyway, Jon, YOU'RE the Zionist mole here--YOU tell us what really happened. KIDDING, man, kidding... :)


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force


There is a contradiction in

Once we get enough people to actually understand that 9/11 was an inside job, other videos/books could go further into an Israeli angle. -Anon.

There is a contradiction in this sentence that is at the root of the entire 9/11 truth effort:

If Israel perpetrated 9/11, then 9/11 was not truly an "inside job," it was an "outside" job, as all the elements of the attack-- the preparations, the planning, the training of personnel-- could have been conducted outside of American government, military, and society.

Of course, the operation would still have needed enablers in positions of power within the American government and military, but this would have come from a small network of moles in key positions of power-- for example, within the command structure of NORAD and NEADS-- and not necessarily from such high offices as the president, vice-president or secretary of defense.

In this respect, the average American who believes the official story is not as far away from the truth as we might think. This average American understands that this was perpetrated on us by outsiders, and he is rightly offended when it is suggested to him that "we did this to ourselves." We only need to suggest to him to replace in his understanding of 9/11 "al-Qaeda" with "Isreali-Zionists," and he will be on the track to the truth.

Israel is hand in hand with

Israel is hand in hand with the U.S. I would still consider it an inside job since we are covering it up.
Of course, I seriously doubt Israel is the only one who had their hands in this.
But, this is the reason we can't convict anyone yet or be sure of who did it. None of us can be certain exactly who did it and exactly how.
Stick to the evidence, not speculation!!!

The inside job...

may indeed be the cover-up while the act itself was an out-sourced job.


Ditto : )

That is...

Ditto to MrEguy.

double dittos

i ditto Layla's ditto to MrEguy!

I believe the amount of

I believe the amount of people who are becoming conscious of PNAC is growing in leaps and bounds. When they do they need leaders to let them not feel afraid. Speak out. Take the risk. Shake your voice.
I own Improbable Collapse and 9-11 Mysteries. I live in a city of 80,000 in western Arkansas. My goal this year is to try to make sure as many people see these movies. I only wish there was a movie that took PNAC, the 2000 election, 9-11Truth, Controlled Opposition of 2004, Military Commissions Act of 206, and the Real ID and shined light on the entire structure of this "New World Order". But I guess that's what long attention spans are for.

It's strange--it seems like

It's strange--it seems like I've been here forever but its only been about three months!

Yes, thank you for having this site, dz--I think its growing says something about a need that wasn't being met much of anywhere. We have a good balance of news, opinion and commentary. The only improvement I could see would be banning/restricting annoy-mice; though now my "hero" has been banned, mass trolling seems to have dropped off. Makes one wonder how much "Ronnie" was disrupting BEFORE he registered under his name; did you ban his IP, dz? Or is that automatic when an account is removed?

Now my "hero" is mostly gone(I'm sure I see him annoy-micing now and then), I've found a new calling in using the most questionable evidence supposedly supporting the official story, and then "helping" to explain it. It's the least I can do.

While I am being a sarcastic bastard at CrossBall, it's not completely heartless: there are some people on the line who, if they see how utterly strange something looks, will start to dig deeper and ask other questions.

Well, that's me. We thank you again for your hard work, dz.

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

Peak Oil is B.S.

Peak oil is a scam designed to create artificial scarcity and jack up prices while giving the state an excuse to invade our lives and order us to sacrifice our hard-earned living standards...


"Peak oil" and "market

"Peak oil" and "market manipulation" ARE NOT mutually exclusive concepts...they can happen at the same time.

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

my lastest letter to my congressman

I am not a writer, but I do try. I am upset that congress passed some stupid law that congressmam can only receive emails from their constituents only. So I only emailed my Oregon reps. Here is my last letter to them:

Dear Sir:

If I didn’t do my job to the best of my ability, I would be let go. I would not be allowed to get away with telling the boss that I didn’t have time to do my job.

My understanding is that if a Bill comes before congress and it is more then 200 pages, no one reads it. They vote on it without knowing what is in the bill. Can we really trust the writers of the bills?

Since this is well known among all of you in political office and knowing you may not have enough time to view any news media, I must assume your information is very limited. Reports would be very long in hopes you wouldn’t bother to read them. Then you would be more likely to believe what ever this administration would tell you.

Since the 9/11 commissioner’s report, NIST report and the other reports seem to be far more pages then 200, I must assume you have not read them. If you have not read them, you have not seen the omissions and discrepancies in these reports.

The airlines didn’t have the hijacked planes on any scheduled flights that day. Could it be that these planes may have been part of the exercises/drills of the military that day? In all exercises/drills I have been in, there always were people playing the victims/terrorists role.

The hijackers were not listed on the passenger lists or the coroners report. Are we sure there were hijackers?

The video of a dark skinned person at an airline check in station didn’t have the airport or time and date in the corner. This fact alone makes me question the validity.

The video of Osama Bin-Laden confession has been proven as a fake. The FBI says that he has no connection with 9/11.

There are mountains of evidence that are readily available that contradict the official 9/11 conspiracy theory.

Have you actually seen any real evidence to support this Governments conspiracy theory?

The Director of the 9/11 Commission had a direct line with this administration and the experts for the NIST seem to work for the corporations profiteering from this war. My conclusion could be that there has not been a truly independent criminal investigation of 9/11. You have the wolves investigating the hen house.

From the Downing Street Memo:

“But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy."

Could this administration be doing just this in regards to 9/11?

Through the freedom of information a copy of “Operations Northwoods” was released. This shows the DOD’s willingness to do a false flag attack.

Please take some time and see what has been happening.

The war of aggression in Iraq is based on lies.

Bring our troops home now and no more financing the war.

Let's find Peace

Congress and Senate corrupt

To all those writting letters to your congressmen. It is good you write to them. You write to them and when they realize America is waking up. It sends chills up and down their spine every day to think one day they will all be in prison or worse (except a few)

But I want you to know that all these congressmen and other politicians are in the know. They know the Fed Reserve is a private bank and prints money out of nothing and is a total fraud robbing the American people of its wealth! They know the war on drugs and terror is a total fraud. They know that the govt uses our tax dollars to buy up the stock market and then tell us they have no money in order to raise taxes or impose new taxes. (look up CAFR) This is but just THREE secrets amongst probably 100s of others they are holding against the people.

Now just think for a second. Do you really think they are listening to your letters? No they are not. They get the letters probably lable them as (this person is awake) and put it into the the people that are awake file. LOL

I have said and I will say it again. We need a REVOLT. I know the 911 truth movement wants to have a peaceful revolt. But if you look at history there has never been a peaceful revolt or take over of the govt. Alot of military probably wants a revolt and is just waiting for the American people to get the courage to back them up.

99% of the govt is either an agent of the NWO or black mailed or both. After all they had 200 yrs since their conception to take over America and to put these traitors into office.

Emagine if they tried to get one producer Aaron Russo into their ranks. Just think if they tried to get him? How many more people they tried to get and succeeded? No I say their are millions of people in America who are part of this BEAST NWO system. It is NOT just a few criminals in the Govt, CIA, FBI etc etc

Some people say. I believe its a small criminal eliment within our govt. This is BULL. There are millions of these NWO types. Both DEMS and REPS. Both political and non political. They run every major institution all over the world. They all know their secrecy depends on their survival. So they will not talk! These people have sold their souls to the devil. Look around you people!!! They are the ones driving the 80,000 Mercedes, Jaguar, Hummer living in their mansions. They all know whats going on and would just assume pretend its not happening. They know that if they look down into the rabbit hole they will see their own destruction and it scares them.. So they just assume not to look. Life is great right now why ruin it? They know they have to enjoy life while they can because that OL devil will come calling for payment one day. They are already so deep into it, that there is no return. They have to enjoy what they have while they can.

So write your letters. Write write write and remind them their time is running out. Maybe just maybe some of them might repent and try to earn their way back into Gods good graces or get their souls back. Just maybe. But I don't see this happening.

Until Americans can muster enough courage to have a REAL REVOLT nothing is going to change.

You can evict the present govt using peaceful tactics but they will just replace them with other NWO types.

Think about it.

you say you want a what?

a revolution? or as you put it--a "real revolt"? What is a real revolution anyway--are you talking about rioting in the streets? To what end? How about a million people standing peacefully around D.C.--does that count as a "real revolt"?

How about if Americans in greater numbers mustered enough courage to just TALK about things that they aren't cued to talk about by the mainstream media? How about we start there and see if we can avoid the tasers and tear gas.

You really think that everyone who drives a Benz or wears a uniform is part of this mysterious NWO? I think you need to refine your analysis a tad. ' Sure congresspeople are corrupt--that's their nature these days--to get elected, you have to have at least a thin coat of slime on you. But the corruption is not as thorough as you think. Taking a bribe is on a very different level from condoning mass murder and fraud. We can either see everyone as the enemy or we can see how many are victims of the real enemies' tactics of blackmail and intimidation, just as much of the population is a victim of their psychological manipulation. What seems like a formidable structure amassed against us is really a lot of smoke and mirrors propped up by peoples' very belief in the illusion they cast.

No country, America included, is ever going to be perfect nor populated by perfect citizens. But there are lines that when crossed, must be asserted or we risk descending into something worse than mere imperfection. Though the line was probably crossed well before, 9/11 marked a watershed moment where the crossing of the line was so blatant and in our face that it represented something quite new--a challenge of sorts to the very meaning of truth. Before the internet, we could perhaps be forgiven for falling for hoaxes like this--Oklahoma City was such a hoax but with the internet in its infancy there was little chance of a critical mass of awareness developing in time to do something about it. 9/11 was done in our collective cyberfaces, so to speak. The perpetrators had either to be desperate (maybe) or more likely so confident in their power and influence over information that they figured they would never be exposed, except by an easily marginalized "fringe" group of crazies. Decent folks, they figured, would never dream that anyone remotely similar to them could be so evil. Enter "al MossCIAda" and the Muslim Peril.

So obvious is all of this that we can be forgiven for wondering what is taking people so long to not just become aware but to take the necessary actions to avoid the need for a "real revolt". But the explanation for this delay is simple enough--the powers that be are just that entrenched in people's psychology and in the media apparatus, and just that desperate to keep a lid on something they fear more than anything else. A fatal mistake. But a fatal mistake they made (or someone like a well meaning retarded fool made on their behalf.) They would much prefer to plunge the world into chaos than to accept their defeat in a noble manner--for these are not noble people. They have, through their actions, thoroughly debased themselves and they hope that through coercion, intimidation, and bribery, they can debase enough of our fellows to handle the threat we represent for them.

Our fate and the fate of the world rests on something quite simple yet also quite grand--the triumph of the human spirit over its own debasement. We stand at a very stark fork in the road--there is no middle way here. The future belongs to the sick and twisted individuals who would preserve the 9/11 myth and everything that goes with it, or the future belongs to us--those who like so many heroes before have preferred to know the harsh truth than to live in a comfortable fantasy as slaves.

We're here to stay, and we have the will to go all the way for the truth. Not by means of a violent revolution, but by a peaceful revolution in thought and joint action in the name of responsible citizenry. Who would get in our way? Who would place themselves in front of this force of nature as if it could be stopped, like the schemes of others, by the decisions of a few? It cannot. We do not control the movement--nor does it control us. We are the movement, and we are more than our sum. Woe to those foolish enough who knowing the truth, decide to oppose it for personal gain.

Onward truthers! The dawning of a new consciousness long due the world is at hand...


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force


Never been a peaceful revolt?

Hey, Burning_FIRE:

I wanted to mention the peaceful ouster of the Britsh rulers from India, which culminated in 1948. Nehru assumed Prime Ministership from the British Viceroy, Lord Mountbatten. The one stepped down and the other assumed power. It went from British rule to Indian rule, overnight. The change occured at midnight, in fact.

Many bad things also happened in connection with Indian Independence, but the transfer to self-rule was essentially non-violent.

There are other examples in history, but this one is perhaps the biggest, and it is recent. And we all know about it. Martin Luther King followed this model.

Let's follow this model. It works best in the long run, IMO. The 9-11 events call for major restructuring. We will need an appropriate model to follow, both during the struggle and in the aftermath.

Non-Violent Direct Action

Great examples and thank you for posting them Student.

And if anyone tells you that writing to your representatives in government is a fruitless activity, please ask them what other course of action they recommend. Certainly in my experience writing to newspapers and my congressmen has been a worthwhile endeavor. Peace.

Thats What They Want

Thats what they want. As long as they know millions of people will not descend on Washington with the intent to physically remove them from office and throw them in prison. Well they really don't have anything to worry about now do they?

They have to know it is a possiblity.

Tell me what great accomplishment have your writtings to congress and the senate proven?

They are all STILL going about their evil plans.

Think about it.

Thats right write them a letter and tell how unhappy you are

Yes you write them letters and tell them how unhappy you are that they have ruined the country. Tell them all you won't vote for them...

Tell them how you are angry that you are governed by laws they don't have to follow.

Tell them how you hate working every day just to put food on the table and only get two weeks vacation while they have unlimited and are filthy rich.

Just write to them and tell them how unhappy you are. Tell them you hate the fact none of them told the truth about the Federal Reserve.

I am not against you guys here. All I am trying to do is make a point and make you guys realize. These scum bags have to know it is a very real possibility of a real revolt before they will work for the people.

They have absolute power and control... You merely writing a letter means nothing to these people. They think well as long as they are only writting letters we are OK. wink wink.

I think you should write letters. I am not against it. I am for any attack we can make against the NWO. All I see is them continuing with their plans and nothing has changed. I know millions of letters have been written to congressmen. Has anything changed? I really would like to see the change. I am ready for it.

Au contraire, mon frère/ ma soeur!

I think they would be delighted to face violence. Violence is what they do best! They wish this was the worst possibility they had to face, because they could face it.

On the other hand, a general strike, a general boycott, and tax resistance would leave them perplexed. I'm not saying that getting the American people to do such things would be easy or even possible, but it's certainly where I'd like to direct my energy.

Local, independent,

Local, independent, economically/ agriculturally self-sufficent or near self-sufficient economies are their worst nightmare--how do you tell people to stop raising their own food, stop owning their own businesses/houses and what not?

I totally support a slow economic "un-plugging" from anything that supports the power elite. What can they do? Complain about people working hard to control their own lives? Whine that their days as parasites are numbered?

Question of the day: how did Soviet Russians feed themselves if supplies were so short people had to line up for blocks and often, even then, their was little or nothing?

Answer: The Soviet Russians grew their own food where they could--and it was illegal.

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

The Military is the KEY

Look what are they doing right now? Sending as many of our troops as they can over seas to die! What would happen if 80% of all our troops were wiped out? Then we would be in big trouble and this is exactly where we are headed with Iran and Iraq. The KEY is the PEOPLE backing the military.

I believe the military is wakening like never before. The only way they will take it back is if they know the people will support them and the next govt wouldn't ship them off the Guantanimo!

Believe me no country ever took back their govt without the support of the millitary. If they don't have our military they don't have squat! This would be the easiest and fastest way to get our govt back.

Like all those supposed peaceful oustings and in India. LOL they would never be able to do it without the military support. Or a miracle from God.

Perfect example... Venezuala and Chavez... the Generals arrested Chavez and the rest of the army said NO and poof he was back in office the next day.

You have to remember the soldiers swear to deffend the constitution and the constitution is meant to protect the people from the govt.

I honestly believe if millions marched on DC and many other places the military would not stop it. If say people tried to arrest them.

Now will the Americans have the courage to do so?

The only reason these scum bags have power is for willing stupid servants. If we wake up the servants where is their power?

Well if they don't wake up soon and smell the coffee its all over for America and the rest of the world. Then you cant have your peaceful protest because there won't be anyone left to have them... It will be the elite and their slaves!

Lets say the people start an economic war on the govt. Im telling you this will never happen and if it did. They could just kill us all. I mean this is their plan anyway.

Good grief people if this is not the time to have a real revolt there never was!!

They weren't world powers

By the way the Elite have a history of replacing their own puppets with more puppets just to fool the public.

You really think these criminals would give their power up without some consequence?

Oh and by the way all those supposed peaceful ousters. Were they world super powers? No they weren't.

Also go look at the ouster. Did the military take it over or the people or with the peoples backing? That is not a peaceful ouster. Someone had to point a gun or be threatend in some sort of way. When I say a real revolt I do not necissarily mean anyone has to die. Although death is common when dealing with these scum bags.

Was this one directed at my post?

Burning_FIRE, I am not sure what post you are replying to. But if you are speaking of India's freedom moment, there was no military action at all. India had no military, while Britain certainly had one, stationed in India. Further, at the time, Britain was the greatest power on earth in terms of countries it directly ruled. I am speaking of the British Empire "over which the sun never set" as they would say back then.

This is all history and sort of boring perhaps, but relevant as an example of non-violence in action.

That would have to be the first time in history

Like I said the elite probably thought India wasn't that important. I do know that once they leave. They never actually leave. Its all smoke and mirrors. If it was peaceful it had to be because enough people in London were against it or the elite already had another puppet in line to take over the Indian govt. like a YES man

Believe me if they don't control India.. Its would be just a matter of time.

Maybe thats why they have so much trouble with Pakistan. Pakistan is controled by these elite parasites.

Oh well... I hope we can have enough time to protest them to death.

peak oil

I have been reading Thomas Gold's book The Deep Hot Biosphere
Thomas Gold doesn't just speculate, he gives lots of well thought out arguments with some scientific proof.

Some of the ideas in his book:
1. life on earth started inside the earth (did not need photosynthesis) and then moved to the surface. Makes perfect sense.
2. The planets were formed from "debris" that began to revolve around the earth. These planets did not come from the sun spewing part of itself off. (new concept for me).
4. Therefore the earth was not a bunch of molten rock that cooled down making the earth a homogenous glob in its center.
5. Oil pervades planet earth. He is saying that if you dig nearly anywhere you will eventually hit oil.
6. Oil comes from the deepest parts of the earth, not from the organic remains of dinosaurs and dead plants...
7. In some oil deposits of course there are organic remains but thats because those remains flowed downward as the oil flowed upward from inner parts of the earth. A small fraction of oil could come from the rotting organic material. But most of it comes from the depths of mother earth wtih no help from rotting things.
8. So, there is no such thing as peak oil. We will never run out of oil. Mother earth has a mother lode of it.

So, in conclusion, the oil companies, politicians and financial robber barons, BS us with the dinosaurs/plant theory and tell us that that the organic material was limited therefore the oil is limited, to justify their price gouging, murder, skulduggery and robbery.

They do this to raise the price of oil because they say the world is running out of it. They perpetuate a theory that most people believe unquestioningly, since most people never take the time to read and do their own research (too "busy"). Maybe even many in the oil companies believe this same propaganda as a kind of doublethink to justify their behavior. Maybe even some people justify the war in Iraq because they think we need the oil and what are we going to do when the oil runs out. Well, people can't stand on this lie either.

THere needs to be some major cognitive dissonance going on with people. Show them that peak oil is a lie and therefore we should start digging in our own country for oil which will make us oil independent and out of the middle east BS.

There is no peak oil.
I agree.

What does ruppert say about

What does ruppert say about abiotic oil. Good post

"We will never run out of oil."

Okaaaay. Whatever, but NEVER is a long time, chum.

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

I'm a former Peak-oiler

But after seeing a Lindsay Williams video, I now know that there is 200 years' worth of oil on the north slope of Alaska that our government is making sure stays a secret.

There isn't peak oil but there is definitely PERCEIVED peak oil, which if you think about it is the same thing.

I sort of hope that Peak Oil is real

Given the continuing and rapid CO2 buildup in the atmosphere, it would seem a tragedy for mankind to have all the oil 'we' might ever want to burn. Agree?

mime11.com and OIL

The opposing perspectives to Peak Oil are covered quite well over at http://www.mime11.com

Click on `OIL'

So am I the only one...

Am I the only one who has come to the conclusion that 9/11 was ultimately masterminded by global elites?
The David Rockefeller/Brzezinski/Kissinger/Bush Sr types. All the evidence points past al Qaeda, past their controllers ISI, past the US, past Saudi Arabia and straight to CFR types.

I mean Aaran Russo said Rockefelller said a big event was going to happen in 9 months(which ended up being 9/.11) which would get the US into Afghanistan and Iraq. David Rockefeller created the Twin Towers,
Rockefeller is connected to Carl Duzburg associates which Atta was involved with, Rockefeller is one of the heads of CFR and has bragged about how he will stop at nothing to initiate a new world order.

I mean, I love all you guys. I think truthers are some of the most nicest and well informed peace activists...but focusing everything on the neocons or Israel is only part of it. I have no doubt criminal elements of the US, Israel, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia were involved, but at the very top I see global elite European intellectuals.
The CFR/Bilderberg/Trilateral types.

Also, I highly look forward to Loose Change Final Cut...but I think it should be called something else.

YOu are not the only one who

YOu are not the only one who knows this. The money masters ie. the private federal reserve bankers are at the center of all the mayhem because they have infinnite money at their fingertips but that is not enough for them. Now they want infinite control of your personal life even your thought life. Infinite money has corrupted these people to an infinite degree.

I just read the Rothschild controls the world uranium market (on the website globalresearch.ca ). Some of the royalty in Britain owns a big chunk of uranium mines also. That is why you will get death threats when you blow the whistle on Depleted Uranium (Gulf War 1 - 580.000 vets were there. 325,000 of them are now disabled (its the "vaccination" shots and the DU that is killing them slowly)) .

Each tank shell has 10 pounds of DU on the tip of it. Who is making money from this. Guess who. Its ALL ABOUT MONEY. And then after money its all about protecting it. This is Machiviaelli's ideas to an Infinite degree.

I couldn't agree more.

If you want to find out who controls the world look no further than the Rockefellers and the Rothschild's. They are at the top of the pyramid. They call the shots because they control the money. Case closed.

Buy the classic video "The Money Masters" & tons of other great

videos & info here:

I also recommend people see MONEY MASTERS

Money Masters is excellent and you'll start to understand the big picture.

This is the conclusion that

This is the conclusion that I have reached after 4 years of 9/11 Truth. However, I am still open to the idea that other countries and entities could of had their hands in it as well.
For any one of us to assume that we know exactly who is behind the curtain and what exactly their motives are is irresponsible.

The Big Evil versus the grassroots

Hey, pockybot,

You say, "All the evidence points past al Qaeda, past their controllers ISI, past the US, past Saudi Arabia and straight to CFR types."

This looks correct to me although 'evidence' is a strong word. Maybe 'implication' would be better.

In the final analysis it is people who control everything. I have read the argument, to me convincing, that world economy and its banking systems depend most heavily on two commodities: oil, and illicit drugs. Look at this link:


So the ultimate solution is for us to become energy independent and free from drug addiction.

Maybe getting at the 9-11 set-up job will help us all to try to change matters from the demand side, i.e., the "need" in our societies for drugs, and the "need" for non-renewable energy supplies.

Of course, addressing both these will call for addressing some of the basic ways that we choose to live. And, with global climate change in an accelerating phase now, we will have to in any case.

Stand Down

9/11 Stand Down: Alfons interviews former Air Traffic Controller Robin Hordon: The Stand Down of NORAD on 9/11, a smoking gun of 9/11. CJCSI 3610.01A (dated 1 June 2001) states that "In the event of a hijacking, the NMCC will be notified by the most expeditious means by the FAA. The NMCC will, with the exception of immediate responses as authorized by reference d, forward requests for DOD assistance to the Secretary of Defense for approval." Learn More -- Learn More A tape of statements made by air traffic controllers immediately following the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, was purposefully destroyed by a Federal Aviation Administration manager. Read More -- Robin Hordon - 9/11 Stand Down.mp3

We must be the change we wish to see in the world. M Gandhi

The eleventh of every month

The eleventh of every month is the best time to focus our activism.

My goal for Feb. 11 is to give away 24 copies of 9/11Press for Truth, assuming the DVD I have can be copied. To make it look slightly more professional, I'll photocopy the DVD liner and fold it into an envelope for the DVD-R.

good idea

Just Sept.11th of every year isn't enough, and everyday is too much, but to make one day every month a "day of truth" is just right - if there'd be protests every month on the 11th worldwide, the MSM couldn't ignore us anymore.

Anyone know...

When Gary Franchi posts his archives for previous shows? I want to get dz's show from last night posted. He did a phenomenal job, and I want people to hear it. Usually, rbnlive is pretty good with that.

"We've been offered a unique opportunity and we must not let this moment pass."

— George W. Bush - State Of The Union Address - January 29th, 2002


It was JUST added. Ask and you shall receive.

"We've been offered a unique opportunity and we must not let this moment pass."

— George W. Bush - State Of The Union Address - January 29th, 2002

getting to know you...

Great job dz on the Lone Lantern show. Feel like we just had a chat and I got to know you better. Don't be shy, someone post this prominently on the site.

Thanks for all your work Ever notice...

...in the ' fireman's video' taken from the street of the first plane hitting, the very top floor, which I believe was a restaurant, blows up?. Check it out. Also on goggle or u tube, What we saw on 9/11 , a video taken by local residence, shows how the fire seems to spread all over the top of the building, bombs?

Fema camps video....have you seen them?

One is in Beech Grove In. and the other in Tyler Tx.....pretty scary. How about Webster Tarpley on the current Guns and Butter, he's my hero.... lololol?

Corsi vs Ruppert - The Great Oil Debate

Corsi vs Ruppert

The Great Oil Debate

To me it's an open and shut case. Science is bought and the people supporting these findings have lied about everything else. That = 0 credibility for the peak side. Oil does not come from plants and dinosaurs and 19 guys with box cutters didn't demolish the 3 trade towers.



You're going to believe a neocon shill like Jerome Corsi over Michael Ruppert? Corsi is one of the swiftboat attack dogs and has now been retained to go after Scott Ritter, the guy who was correct on Iraq and soon to be proven correct on Iran. Just because Jerome Corsi is a slicker guy than Ruppert and better in a debate does not mean he proved his case.

wow...you sure listened to

wow...you sure listened to that debate fast. It's 2 hours long and I just posted it 5 minutes ago.

ruppert admits it's not his findings and he's just going by what's taught.

snap out of it

You are of course entitled

You are of course entitled to you opinion, just keep in mind these concepts(peak oil vs Market manipulation) ARE NOT mutually exclusive.

I posted this above but I will elaborate:

The solutions to Peak Oil are, from a practical standpoint, indistigushable from the solutions to reducing dependency on foreign oil and the wars they motivate. So as long as someone supports energy conservation, renewable resources, recycling, local economies and local food production, etc.--oh, add destroying the bastards who profit from the wars---- its a waste of time arguing the details of whether peak oil is real or not.

That said, must say I'm not impressed with the "there is oil forever" argument.

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

Peak Oil vs. Abiotic Oil

All of the comments about peak oil vs abiotic oil seem short-sighted to me. It’s definitely not a case in which one excludes the other. (Yes, I have read Gold’s book and find the arguments compelling if not completely dispositive.)

If the theory of the abiotic origin of oil is correct, it does NOT mean that humanity automatically has unlimited access to unlimited amounts of it. Almost by definition in the abiotic scenario, how much of it actually exists would be UNKNOWN.

So, two concepts that are missing from this either-or thing that you guys are debating are:
(1) how much oil is accessible and
(2) how much energy does it take to extract it and make it useable (ERoEI).

If somehow we had the ability to tell (which we don’t) that there is a huge, 200-billion-barrel pool of oil at a depth of 20 miles, for practical purposes it might as well not exist.

The point is this: we (collectively) have a really good idea (if the true figures of most countries’ oil reserves are known to the ‘we’ in this sentence), within general parameters, of how much oil is accessible to us (let’s not get sidetracked into speculation about futuristic oil-exploration-and-extraction technology that doesn’t exist now). Therefore the *concept* of Peak Oil has validity *whether or not* we know the origin of petroleum deposits.

All this talk about the *concept* of Peak Oil being an oil industry plot is logically invalid. Which is not to say that the oil industry doesn’t do everything in its power to maximize profit. In that regard I agree with one of the comments above that said: abiotic oil, peak oil and industry manipulation are not mutually exclusive – they may all exist at the same time.

And, I still believe that control of Mid-East oil is the driving concept behind the megalomaniacal geopolitical strategy that brought us 9/11.

Lindsay Williams

ok...how about we ask the guy who sat in on the big oil meetings where they said there is more than enough oil and they have to control the output in order to keep the peak oil myth alive?

http://www.stoplying.ca/media/lwilliamsoilscam.mp3 (skip ahead to about 15 minutes)

It's the same people behind 9/11 when you get to the top....why is this so hard to accept :)


No matter how big a reserve is, and I don't care if it is the largest in the world, the extraction rate is the key. Even if it holds 50 billion barrels, it may only produce 2 mbpd at best. This is what I feel they are missing. It has nothing to do with the quantity, it is all about the extraction rate. There is more gold dissolved in the world's seas than in all mines put together, but it would cost a fortune to distill from the water.

3 of the 4 largest oil fields in the world have gone into decline in the past few years. FACT. Ghawar, the largest field in the world has a huge water cut, which signals potential decline/collapse. FACT. The continental U.S. peaked in the early '70's. FACT. The planet has been producing flat at approximately 85 million barrels per day for over a year. FACT. Peak is incontrovertible.

Why peak oil is probably about now.

"Peak oil in a paragraph.
When is Peak Oil?

Fossil Fuels are Finite. Oil is a fossil fuel.

Peak Oil boils down to an argument about how much conventional oil will ultimately be recovered world-wide. How much oil we can eventually recover, determines how much oil we can consume; how quickly & for how long. The US Geological Survey, CERA & others predict around 4 trillion barrels recoverable, while others predict it's half that amount. The bulk of the difference between these estimates, are the OPEC "paper barrels", added to OPEC oil reserve estimates during the 1980's. Give or take some percentage, if these "paper barrels" actually exist & are recoverable, then total world oil reserves are closer to the USGS estimate. If not, then it's closer to the smaller estimate. Peak oil is really about these "paper barrels".

Paper Barrels = True (Peak around 2030)
Paper Barrels = False (Peak right about now)
Are they real?"

Our government is trying to drill in Alaska now. So, obviously nobody is saving this supposed goldmine anymore.

This guy's material is decades old. I'll side with the independent petroleum geologists.

well I guess like 9/11

well I guess like 9/11 truth, there are some who just can't let go of the big lie.

Yes Mr Williams was in these oil meetings decades ago... and the plan for the oil, the middle east and the destruction of america is right on track.

These criminals lie through their teeth to you every day. What exactly is it that makes you think they will tell you the truth about this?

Wake up!!!!!


Part 2 and the rest http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGGjbDjnNzw

one cover-up at a time

i think it's only harmful to 9/11 truth to "bundle" the issue with other possible cover-ups like 'peak oil', JFK etc. For example Carol Broulliet is an environmentalist. I don't agree with her on the environmentalism one bit, i think pollution is ok and don't care about air quality etc., but when it comes to 9/11 she is one of the best speakers and her deception dollar is priceless.
9/11 brings many people together that are adversaries just about on every other issue.

The 'common enemy' seems to be the "freely elected" officials on the state and national level: How amazing with at least 30% of the population being truthers, whenEVER a new 'talking head' comes to power like Pelosi or Negroponte, they ALWAYS, ALWAYS *deny* 9/11 truth, and ALWAYS deny that people want 9/11 truth, and ALWAYS keep the story straight, and never make a mistake there, so that from the MSM perspective, the cover-up story is kept straight and air-tight. Next up: the new president 2008, denying 9/11 truth all over again - and good night America.

Alex Jones - Occult

Alex Jones - Occult Symbolism In The Western Hemisphere

pdf of Ruppert's "crossing the rubicon"

hi. i put this on the ron paul thread, thought this might be a more appropriate spot for it.
This is a pdf of "CROSSING THE RUBICON: The Decline of American Empire At The End of The Age of Oil"
also included on this page is a rebuttal of sorts to the "peak oil" theory called, "Russia Proves 'Peak Oil' is a Misleading Zionist Scam" by Joe Vialls
for more 9/11 e-books: http://sandiego.indymedia.org/en/2006/11/122509.shtml

a couple more books


Michael Tsarion - Atlantis, Alien Visitation and Genetic Manipulation -

Jordan Maxwell - Matrix of Power: How the World has been Controlled -

Excellent vid, must see for anyone interested in the truth.

"With the help of Adolph Freiherr Knigge, on May 23, 1776 Weishaupt formed the "Order of Perfectibilists", which was later known as the Illuminati. He adopted the name of "Brother Spartacus" within the order. Though the Order was not egalitarian or democratic, its mission was to establish a New World Order, which meant the abolition of all monarchical governments and religions."


Michael Tsarion is an interesting fellow...

with some very interesting theories. However, He's not for 'newbies' when it come to alternative history.

Someone who's never been exposed to alternative history, and the enormous archaeological & architectural evidence that there was once a more advanced people on this planet than we are at this point, (Don't believe me, do the research.) might find Mr. Tsarion to be a wacko.

'Technology of the Gods' by David Childress is a great place to start. Here's a video of Mr. Childress giving a lecture/presentation. (player wouldn't load for me, download links under player screen.)


Election Reform.

As long as we are in the business of educating our society regarding the facts of nine eleven, we might as well speak out for election reform as well.


Are two organization I'm aware of working on this.
Regardless of education, the tool that we must ultimately depend on is the power to vote. This is the foundation of our society and we need to be sure our educational efforts pay off when it comes to election days. True? Peace.

Let me just say....

It's good to have an open thread. I always enjoy these.

911dvds@gmail.com - $1 DVDs shipped - email for info

Norman Mineta’s Testimony Proves 9/11 Was an Inside Job

Norman Mineta’s Testimony Proves 9/11 Was an Inside Job

The Dick Cheney Stand-Down Order

The only other possible explanation that could account for Norman Mineta’s testimony is to claim that Mineta witnessed a conversation between Cheney and a young man about United 93. According to the 9/11 Commission Report, it would seem possible that the young man and Cheney could have been talking about United 93, which they claim crash landed at 10:03 in Shanksville, Pennsylvania because the passengers tried to overtake the cockpit from the hijackers. This could account for Mineta’s testimony, assuming he was confused on the time of his arrival in the PEOC.

This claim does not however account for the inconsistencies about Cheney’s timeline of when he entered the PEOC (Presidential Emergency Operations Center). It cannot account for the stories by ABC news and the changing account of the Military’s response to AA 77 which included Phantom AA 11. This claim also cannot explain Richard Clarke’s account. The Government’s changing official story of what happened to United 93 is absurd and contradicted by many credible sources, most notably Richard Clarke.

Since day one, there have been suspicions that United 93 was shot down by the U.S. Military because of the fear that it would have been used as a weapon to attack targets on the ground. The 9/11 Commission Report therefore attempted to eliminate any suspicion of this allegation by claiming that military notification of United 93 came after the plane already crashed, and authorization to shoot down hijacked aircrafts came long after United 93 was down.

The first problem with claiming that Mineta overheard a discussion about United 93 is that it crashed approximately 125 miles [61] away from Washington D.C. Therefore, United 93 was never “50 miles out” of the White House, Pentagon, or any other specific target. It certainly was not “30 miles out” or “10 miles out” either.

However, the 9/11 Commission paints a picture of incompetence and confusion that still makes it seem possible that Mineta witnessed the young man and Cheney discussing United 93 or a medevac helicopter or some combination thereof. The argument is quite farfetched and doesn’t make sense with respect to Mineta’s testimony, especially considering it has Cheney giving an order to shoot down a plane that was already down and an order to shoot down a medevac helicopter.

9/11 Commission Report: [62]

At 10:02, the communicators in the shelter began receiving reports from the Secret Service of an inbound aircraft-presumably hijacked-heading toward Washington . That aircraft was United 93.The Secret Service was getting this information directly from the FAA. The FAA may have been tracking the progress of United 93 on a display that showed its projected path to Washington , not its actual radar return. Thus, the Secret Service was relying on projections and was not aware the plane was already down in Pennsylvania.217

At some time between 10:10 and 10:15, a military aide told the Vice President and others that the aircraft was 80 miles out. Vice President Cheney was asked for authority to engage the aircraft.218 His reaction was described by Scooter Libby as quick and decisive, "in about the time it takes a batter to decide to swing." The Vice President authorized fighter aircraft to engage the inbound plane. He told us he based this authorization on his earlier conversation with the President. The military aide returned a few minutes later, probably between 10:12 and 10:18, and said the aircraft was 60 miles out. He again asked for authorization to engage. The Vice President again said yes.219

At the conference room table was White House Deputy Chief of Staff Joshua Bolten. Bolten watched the exchanges and, after what he called "a quiet moment," suggested that the Vice President get in touch with the President and confirm the engage order. Bolten told us he wanted to make sure the President was told that the Vice President had executed the order. He said he had not heard any prior discussion on the subject with the President.220

The Vice President was logged calling the President at 10:18 for a two-minute conversation that obtained the confirmation. On Air Force One, the President's press secretary was taking notes; Ari Fleischer recorded that at 10:20, the President told him that he had authorized a shootdown of aircraft if necessary.221

Minutes went by and word arrived of an aircraft down in Pennsylvania . Those in the shelter wondered if the aircraft had been shot down pursuant to this authorization.222

At approximately 10:30, the shelter started receiving reports of another hijacked plane, this time only 5 to 10 miles out. Believing they had only a minute or two, the Vice President again communicated the authorization to "engage or "take out" the aircraft. At 10:33, Hadley told the air threat conference call: "I need to get word to Dick Myers that our reports are there's an inbound aircraft flying low 5 miles out. The Vice President's guidance was we need to take them out."223

Once again, there was no immediate information about the fate of the inbound aircraft. In the apt description of one witness, "It drops below the radar screen and it's just continually hovering in your imagination; you don't know where it is or what happens to it." Eventually, the shelter received word that the alleged hijacker 5 miles away had been a medevac helicopter.224

Although the 9/11 Commission Report does not address Mineta’s testimony, some defenders of the official theory claim that Mineta witnessed a discussion about Flight 93, not the plane approaching the Pentagon. When looking at the totality of Mineta’s testimony in response to Lee Hamilton’s questions, it does not seem plausible that the plane which was 50, 30 and 10 miles out could have been Flight 93.

9/11 Commission Hearing Testimony: [63]

MR. MINETA: And then later I heard of the fact that the airplanes had been scrambled from Langley to come up to DC, but those planes were still about 10 minutes away. And so then, at the time we heard about the airplane that went into Pennsylvania , then I thought, "Oh, my God, did we shoot it down?" And then we had to, with the vice president, go through the Pentagon to check that out.

MR. HAMILTON: Let me see if I understand. The plane that was headed toward the Pentagon and was some miles away, there was an order to shoot that plane down.

MR. MINETA: Well, I don't know that specifically, but I do know that the airplanes were scrambled from Langley or from Norfolk , the Norfolk area. But I did not know about the orders specifically other than listening to that other conversation.

MR. HAMILTON: But there very clearly was an order to shoot commercial aircraft down.

MR. MINETA: Subsequently I found that out.

MR. HAMILTON: With respect to Flight 93, what type of information were you and the vice president receiving about that flight?

MR. MINETA: The only information we had at that point was when it crashed.

MR. HAMILTON: I see. You didn't know beforehand about that airplane.

MR. MINETA: I did not.

MR. HAMILTON: And so there was no specific order there to shoot that plane down.

MR. MINETA: No, sir.

Based on the conversation that he overheard between the young man and Cheney, Mineta clearly explained that there were no orders to shoot down United 93 and that “the orders” referred to AA 77. Mineta explained that the first time they heard of United 93, it had already crashed. Mineta makes no mention or reference to the fact that they were tracking and attempting to shoot down United 93 after it already crashed, or that they almost shot down a medevac helicopter.


Mineta Testimony

It does appear that Hamilton...

was confusing the issue, or is confused himself.

How old are these guys? ;-)

911dvds@gmail.com - $1 DVDs shipped - email for info

forget 911 -- think USA Election

You will not get anywhere. The (logic of the) machines rule you all.

Better listen to himself ....

Or, if you must, read:

Or buy the book and pass it around:

and DO SOMETHING about this fraud.. its prio one.

Daniel Abrahamson - R.I.P.?

I don't mean to be alarmist but Daniel seems to have dropped off the map! They replayed him AGAIN on RBN today- for the second saturday in a row- which is infuriating to me, because he's basically been the heir apparent to Alex Jones- considering how much content he's been able to compress into a single show.

Having not heard a peep in weeks- I'm lead to worry. If you are out there and reading this, Dan- PLEASE POST SOMETHING! Let us know that you are okay. After doing that, explain why you dropped from radar? We miss your insights! I'm left to my own devices now- cobbling together Alex Jones, Tarpley and - on the purely financial front - Jim Puplava (who I assume you listen to and synthesize every so often...)

Please Dan- tell us you're still alive!

First Responder Fund Drive Hits $1000!!!

If you haven't given yet, and you're in a position to do so, please do. Thanks.


"We've been offered a unique opportunity and we must not let this moment pass."

— George W. Bush - State Of The Union Address - January 29th, 2002

Ruppert/ FTW-archive needs a web host

True Power.

True Power will come when our houses produce a lot of their own energy. Solar panels in sunny areas. Wind Mills in windy areas etc. Collect water from rain etc. That will take a lot of power out of the hands of the few and into the hands of the many. Thoughts? Links to people or companies already doing this.


I like the concept of giving some of these most evil people good nicknames. I saw earlier someone post about "Tricky Dick Cheney" I liked that. I also heard I think Colbert or someone just call him "Shooter" and I liked that too. tricky Dick "shooter" Cheney. is fitting for him.

We all know Richard Perle as

We all know Richard Perle as "The Prince of Darkness". Wolfowitz is "Wolfy", and Rumsfeld "Rummy". George W i suspect, is just plain Idiot, maybe Idiot George (as opposed to curious George). According to Condi Rice, they call themselves "the Vulcans" as a group, as a "cabal".

A question for Truthers

One of the most common things I hear from Truthers are "The evidence speaks for itself," "the official story is transparent and a lie," "truth has come out," "undeniable facts..." The list goes on an on. Well my question is, if the "truth" is so painfully obvious then why in the hell can't you guys agree on anything? The truth movement is collapsing from the inside out because all of you are calling each other "shills" and "agents." How hard is it to prove your innocence? If the truth is so oblivious, why the fighting? Look at the debunking side, we all agree 100% with each other and we all stick to one logical story. Want to know why? Because our evidence actually speaks for itself.

P.S. Stop using the word Orwellian if you hide comments and block users, it makes you look retarded.

The gov't cannot agree. It's

The gov't cannot agree.
It's got multiple mutually contradictory timelines from NORAD, FAA and 9/11 Commission Report.
It's got multiple mutually contradictory explanations of the Towers collapsing in its various reports.
It says Osama is guilty, but then he is not indicted for 9/11 and the FBI says there is no hard evidence linking him to 9/11.
It gives a flight path for Flight 77 knocking down poles, but the FAA releases flight data which is entirely contradictory with that story.
The government has contradicted itself many many times on 9/11.
It is simply not accurate to say that the government has one unified explanation of what happened on 9/11.

You missed his point. The

You missed his point. The pro official story people are all in agreement that all the main aspects of it are in fact precisely what they've been told to believe. They are lock step with the government's official story, and do not doubt it, or each other in their mutual support of it.

Basicly, those behind the scenes knew

This week, George Bush decided to escalate the war against the wishes of seven out of ten Americans. The president continues to quench his thirst for ‘victory’ at the Kool Aid factory owned and operated by the American Enterprise Institute - a quasi-academic storefront set up by the Israeli Lobby. How many MSM articles will report that the authors of the ‘surge’ are AEI operatives? Or that the architects of this ‘new strategy’ wear the colors of the same old gang that that gave us Douglas Feith, Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle. Or that the AEI is financed by Irving Moskowitz, an extremist Likudnik who operates bingo halls in Florida and finances illegal settlements in the West Bank.
Enough of us are aware that the foreign policy machinery has been expropriated by the most belligerent anti-Arab racists in the land – the Israel First crowd. But few dare to hold these delusional Likudnik nuts accountable for their role in corrupting WMD intelligence or abusing their media power to drag the country into the worst strategic blunder in American history. There’s a word for that kind of timidity – cowardice.
We need to put an end to the lie that we invaded Iraq with good intentions. We didn’t. Bush launched this war of aggression to mess up the place, control a country that sits on 10% of the world’s oil reserves, prop up the dollar and redraw the map to suit Israel’s real estate fantasies. If the president actually believed for one minute that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, he would have backed off – just like he did with North Korea.

The skeptics of the official

The skeptics of the official story agree on a few things it appears:

The official story has never been proven.
The official story is false in many crucial regards.
Much crucial physical evidence has either been destroyed or is being withiheld from the public by the government.
A proper, thorought investigation of 9/11 has never taken place.
An investigation with power of subpoena of evidence and testimony is required to fill in some of the many things that are unknown about 9/11.

the TRUTH is we don't know the TRUTH...

and we should.

thanks for that one, Mr. RB

911dvds@gmail.com - $1 DVDs shipped - email for info

The Underlying Politics of 9/11

An excerpt from a Ralph Schoenman speech on the false flag aspects of the events of September 11, 2001.

its 175, not 75.... thoughts?

911dvds@gmail.com - $1 DVDs shipped - email for info

10 characteristics of 9/11 Truthers

Conspiracy theorists

AKA 'conspiraloons', 'tinfoil hatters', 'loonspuds', 'fruit'n'jobs' etc.

Note from editor: because of the high profile nature of the urban75 bulletin boards, we often suffer obsessive conspiracy theorists or (guffaw) 'truth seekers' filling up the boards with fact-free claims, evidence-untroubled epilogues and vast reams of tedious cut'n'paste, invariably regurgitated from some dubious internet site.

We hope this information will be of use if you encounter a conspiraloon while on the boards.

10 characteristics of conspiracy theorists

A useful guide by Donna Ferentes

1. Arrogance. They are always fact-seekers, questioners, people who are trying to discover the truth: sceptics are always "sheep", patsies for Messrs Bush and Blair etc.

2. Relentlessness. They will always go on and on about a conspiracy no matter how little evidence they have to go on or how much of what they have is simply discredited. (Moreover, as per 1. above, even if you listen to them ninety-eight times, the ninety-ninth time, when you say "no thanks", you'll be called a "sheep" again.) Additionally, they have no capacity for precis whatsoever. They go on and on at enormous length.

3. Inability to answer questions. For people who loudly advertise their determination to the principle of questioning everything, they're pretty poor at answering direct questions from sceptics about the claims that they make.

4. Fondness for certain stock phrases. These include Cicero's "cui bono?" (of which it can be said that Cicero understood the importance of having evidence to back it up) and Conan Doyle's "once we have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however unlikely, must be the truth". What these phrases have in common is that they are attempts to absolve themselves from any responsibility to produce positive, hard evidence themselves: you simply "eliminate the impossible" (i.e. say the official account can't stand scrutiny) which means that the wild allegation of your choice, based on "cui bono?" (which is always the government) is therefore the truth.

5. Inability to employ or understand Occam's Razor. Aided by the principle in 4. above, conspiracy theorists never notice that the small inconsistencies in the accounts which they reject are dwarfed by the enormous, gaping holes in logic, likelihood and evidence in any alternative account.

6. Inability to tell good evidence from bad. Conspiracy theorists have no place for peer-review, for scientific knowledge, for the respectability of sources. The fact that a claim has been made by anybody, anywhere, is enough for them to reproduce it and demand that the questions it raises be answered, as if intellectual enquiry were a matter of responding to every rumour. While they do this, of course, they will claim to have "open minds" and abuse the sceptics for apparently lacking same.

7. Inability to withdraw. It's a rare day indeed when a conspiracy theorist admits that a claim they have made has turned out to be without foundation, whether it be the overall claim itself or any of the evidence produced to support it. Moreover they have a liking (see 3. above) for the technique of avoiding discussion of their claims by "swamping" - piling on a whole lot more material rather than respond to the objections sceptics make to the previous lot.

8. Leaping to conclusions. Conspiracy theorists are very keen indeed to declare the "official" account totally discredited without having remotely enough cause so to do. Of course this enables them to wheel on the Conan Doyle quote as in 4. above. Small inconsistencies in the account of an event, small unanswered questions, small problems in timing of differences in procedure from previous events of the same kind are all more than adequate to declare the "official" account clearly and definitively discredited. It goes without saying that it is not necessary to prove that these inconsistencies are either relevant, or that they even definitely exist.

9. Using previous conspiracies as evidence to support their claims. This argument invokes scandals like the Birmingham Six, the Bologna station bombings, the Zinoviev letter and so on in order to try and demonstrate that their conspiracy theory should be accorded some weight (because it's “happened before”.) They do not pause to reflect that the conspiracies they are touting are almost always far more unlikely and complicated than the real-life conspiracies with which they make comparison, or that the fact that something might potentially happen does not, in and of itself, make it anything other than extremely unlikely.

10. It's always a conspiracy. And it is, isn't it? No sooner has the body been discovered, the bomb gone off, than the same people are producing the same old stuff, demanding that there are questions which need to be answered, at the same unbearable length. Because the most important thing about these people is that they are people entirely lacking in discrimination. They cannot tell a good theory from a bad one, they cannot tell good evidence from bad evidence and they cannot tell a good source from a bad one. And for that reason, they always come up with the same answer when they ask the same question.

A person who always says the same thing, and says it over and over again is, of course, commonly considered to be, if not a monomaniac, then at very least, a bore.


I think you are looking for

I think you are looking for the David Icke site. Very interesting opinion though

I think you are looking for

I think you are looking for the David Icke site. Very interesting opinion though

I think you are looking for

I think you are looking for the David Icke site. Very interesting opinion though

You SEE! You had to repeat

You SEE! You had to repeat it THREE TIMES!

Yawn... I know you are but what am I!

All I will say about the above is that much of it describes not truthers but blind adherents to the official story, whatever it turns out to be (like, did the towers pancake? yes, I mean no. uhhh, it's not clear.) Bazant and Zhou immediately came out with a paper on why the towers fell, which officil conspiranoids still cite, though it was pointed out to be absurd since it presupposed the steel in the towers got to red hot glowing temperatures which no one observed the effects of. So it is we who don't understand Occam's Razor, when we say that insurance fraud and a false flag attack (both of which have happened many times before) is the simplest explanation, not the OCTer when they rant about muslims hating our freedoms, global jihadists with intricate undetectable networks pulling off an unprecedented and surprise attack armed with box-cutters (oh no wait they had knives, yeah it was knives) managing to destroy 3 skyscrapers with two planes, etc. etc. and they have the nerve to tell us we don't understand Occam's Razor! Well newsflash--the official theorists live in a Procrustean world where anything that doesn't fit is cut off. Put that in you cuibono and smoke it, traitor!


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force


The truth is what it is

To Real Truther- thanks for your summation. Yes, we do repeat what we believe is the truth, sometimes wearing out a good quote or phrase while trying to make our point. Repetion can work to change perception, howerver. I suggest, as others have, that we learn more about how to be more persuasive speakers by reading more, learning how to reach others (Toastmasters anyone?), and by just using common sense rather than an endless rant of "facts". Why believe our Oval Office liars when they have cried wolf over and over and over...

10 Characteristics of "official" Conspiracy Defenders

One day they might see that this applies far more to themselves that we who have the evidence. Hey, Everybody's Gonna Learn Sometime!

We must be the change we wish to see in the world. M Gandhi

Official Story far from "self evident" truth.

That is the premise and the underlying presupposition of the official story adherents, that it's self evident and essentially true in all aspects.

Well, I think that David Ray Griffin, in his four books on the subject, has very clearly and rationally laid out a case to show that the official story is the farthest thing from being self evident.

What we're at least attempting to do, is to provide a more valid and rational explanation based on the entirety of the public record and all observed phenomenon according to Occam's Razor. At the very LEAST we have proven that the official story is patently false, and in many respects, utterly absurd ie: Hani Hanjour's piloting skills at the helm of flight 77.

The 9/11 Commission Report has already been in effect shredded as a historical reference to 9/11, and the NIST report, in it's own words "does not actually include the structural behavior of the tower after the conditions for collapse initiation were reached" (NIST 2005, p. 80, n. 12)

So what do we really have then, in terms of the official story?

Don't the victims and their families, and all the many victims, numbering now in the 100's of 1000's, produced in the wake of 9/11, require something a little more substantial? Doesn't history itself?

It's sad to see the representatives on the hill embracing the 9/11 Commission Report as the authoritative and definitive final say on the matter, when that very commission was compromised by a severe conflict of interest from the outset, by the appointment of Philip D. Zelikow as it's executive director.

History and the countless victims of that event demands a higher degree of accountability. WARS have been waged in the name of 9/11 "justice" for God's sake!

It's a disgrace to call those who are asking questions and demanding a real investigation "kooks" and "loons" when you come to think about it at any length.

"There is nothing now hidden which will not be made known, and brought to light."
~ Jesus

I hope you're right about that Jesus.

Alex Jones Terrorstorm Remix Music Video (Quite good! About

6 min 30sec; merely a few seconds of injured/dead bodies that might upset.)

Proof by video?

I don't see how this footage proves or disproves anything at all.

Exchange with JREF'er

Here's an exchange I just had with a "sceptic"

I figured it was worthy of a post here.



Perhaps they will come to see that we are the brave ones, willing to challenge absurd things that do not mesh with reality, will to actually employ Occam's Razor on things like Hani Hanjour's piloting skill level, and how two planes cannot take down three steel skyscrapers all in one day due to fire alone.

how in the world can planes bring down skyscrapers with fire alone? did they fly above the skyscrapers, dropping fire down onto the skyscrapers? or, did they CRASH INTO THE DAMNED BUILDINGS, causing all sorts of structural damage? so far as i recall, the planes CRASHED INTO THE BUILDINGS, so, OBVIOUSLY, the buildings weren't brought down by fire alone, right?

i don't mind those that conclude differently than i, but FFS don't go and write stuff that is blatently incorrect, and then try to act as if all those that question your opinion aren't "true skeptics".

regarding the eventual release of LC:FE, i'm certain a great deal of JREFers will watch. unlike many of you, however, the JREFers will hold it, its claims and its cited evidence, to proper scrutiny. if it holds up, its views and arguments will be debated and considered. if it falls apart, it will be dismissed and debunked.


First off, why do you not turn and apply the light of rational scrutiny and analysis to the official story itself, and second, the official account regarding the demise of those three buildings is purely a fire induced collapse initiation hypothesis. The official story is that the steel supports easily carried the load from any structural damage due to the impacts of the planes, and would have remained standing (to be repaired) had not fire sufficiently weakened the steel, to cause a complete "global collapse" from top to bottom (at about the rate of absolute free fall in air I might add). Get YOUR facts straight why don't you? The official story is that fire alone (yes in the case of the twins, fire as a result of the planes impacts) caused all three of those buildings to go down on 9/11, when the reality, and the truth of the matter is that never once, before or after 9/11, has FIRE resulted in the complete global collapse of a steel structured skyscraper, and building 7 would also qualify in that regard. Never once in the NIST report is it suggested that the removal of structural support, as a result of the plane impact, resulted in the "collapse". The official story is a fire induced collapse initation hypothesis alone. Period. And again, why do you never turn your critical analysis and scepticism toward an examination of the voracity and validity of the entirety of the official story account, in all aspects, from beginning to end. WE, not you, are the TRUE Sceptics. We could have settled at simply proving the official story incorrect, but at the same time, the only possible conclusion which may be drawn as a result, is what we tried our best to discern, and even then, we are not claiming to know everything about what happened, which is why we are clamouring for a real and true, and thorough, and proper, independant investigation, into what took place on 9/11.

What, do you, as a "sceptic" subscribe to the 9/11 Commision Report, and the NIST report, which in it's own words "does not actually include the structural behavior of the tower after the conditions for collapse initiation were reached" (NIST 2005, p. 80, n. 12) as the uncompromising purely self evident TRUTH of what happened on 9/11, without question? Is THAT your position, as "sceptics"?

You have nothing to offer, which would even begin to attempt to fill in the gaps, the gaping HOLES in the official story. You position is about as vapid and vacuuous as the governments own, to which you cling, and embrace at any and all cost, even to the cost of truth and reality itself if need be. Being a "sceptic" meaning questioning everything and all sides of an argument, to try to determine what is true and real, and what is not. You don't even BEGIN to question the official story of 9/11, and filled with flaws and holes it most certainly is. You should try reading the books of David Ray Griffin, to begin to get a handle on the position we are taking, and the questions which we are asking that DEMAND answers, for the sake of truth and justice, and for the sake of all the many victims of 9/11, both on that day, and since, in its wake, and they now number in the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS!

You guard the big lie, that's what you do. It doesn't matter how accurate it is, or how congruent with truth and reality it is. All you know is what you are against (alternative hypothesis).

You call yourselves scientfically minded, and rational "sceptics"! Pfft, you are anything but. You are blind faith believers in a story which on many fronts, it utterly absurd, and which does NOT hold up to any amount of rational scrutiny whatsoever.

Nice position you've taken, and are you open to any and all new information, even that which may be presented in LCFC? Not. You are closed minded and irrational in your staunch support of the official account of what really happened on 9/11, and for that, given the magnitude of the historical significance of that event, you should be ashamed.