The gov't did it, speakers to argue

The gov't did it, speakers to argue -

A group of scholars who argue that the World Trade Center towers were destroyed by a controlled demolition - not by passenger jets piloted by terrorists - will speak in the Michigan Union Ballroom Sunday.

Ann Arbor 9/11 Truth, a recently formed group of Ann Arbor residents who dispute the government's version of what happened on Sept. 11, 2001, hope to persuade people that the government is lying.

"We're concerned citizens that would like for the truth to come out," said University alum Michael Yi, a member of the group.

In order to achieve this goal, Ann Arbor 9/11 Truth has joined forces with Scholars for 9/11 Truth, a society of more than 300 scholars and students dedicated to using scientific and pragmatic means to determine what "actually happened" on Sept. 11.

The groups describe the attacks as an "inside job," perpetrated by the government.

Three members of Scholars for 9/11 Truth will present their research at the event at 6:30 p.m. in the Union.

One of the speakers, Kevin Barrett, has garnered national headlines in July for his Sept. 11 conspiracy theory. He is an associate lecturer at the University of Wisconsin at Madison. He teaches an introductory course on Islam that includes the Sept. 11 attacks, but an internal probe found he kept his personal opinions out of the classroom.

James Fetzer, a professor at the University of Minnesota at Duluth and the group's founder, said he has committed himself to leading the group in refuting the government's account of how and why the World Trade Center towers fell.

"We have proven in every significant respect what the government has told us is false," he said. "And in my judgment, that's not even controversial anymore,"

Fetzer cited a poll conducted by The New York Times and CBS that found that 53 percent of the respondents thought the Bush administration was hiding something about Sept. 11, while 28 percent believed the administration was outright lying about the terrorist attacks.

Although the claims seem audacious, Yi said the government had every incentive to orchestrate the catastrophe. He said that the attacks of Sept. 11 gave the United States justification to wage on Iraq invade Afghanistan, both to access oil. He said the attacks also justified the passage of the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Act - two pieces of legislation that many argue strip Americans of fundamental rights.

"They couldn't have done any of those things if 9/11 hadn't happened," Yi said.

The conspiracy group is not sponsored by the University and is paying to use the Union Ballroom.

Despite the controversial beliefs of the speakers, University administrators stressed the importance of free speech on campus.

Susan Wilson, director of the Office of Student Activities and Leadership, said the University would not refuse to rent out a room to a group based solely on its beliefs.

"The University places great importance on the right of freedom of speech and exchange of ideas," she said.

Rob Scott, chair of the University's chapter of the College Republicans, said his group would not protest the event.

"I would be more likely to attend the event and ask questions," Scott said. "I believe in free speech."

LSA senior Alex Smith, founder of Anti-war Action, a student group opposed to the war in Iraq, questioned the beliefs of Sept. 11 conspiracy theorists.

"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence, and I'm curious to see that evidence," Smith said.

Fetzer emphasized that the group's views are met more with interest than anger. He said the angry e-mails and hate phone calls haven't deterred him from his cause.

"This is either important enough to do or it isn't, and I determined a long time ago that it is," Fetzer said. "I knew that my reputation would be laid on the line."

If only Fetzer would drop

If only Fetzer would drop the energy beam theory, and Reynolds the "NPT", then maybe that group could re-assume some leadership for the truth movement, without setting up straw men.

“We will export death and violence to the four corners of the earth” - George W. Bush

unique demolition

WTC 1 & 2 came down in a unique demolition. I don't want to throw any plausible theory out But, since these buildings pulverized from the top down on the upper floors and explosions on the lower floors, I will stay open, as there may have been more then one system to accomplish this destruction.

Let's find Peace

Take WTC1 North Tower for example...

It did not "pulverize" from the very top with no explosives as you state (imo implying ray beam weapons)...

In fact the collapse began with a "mini demolition".

It is best illustrated visually...

Notice how nothing moves below the initiation point (except for the antenna / core) until the "shroud" of dust starts to conceal what is actually happening to the exterior. It feels to me that it was a combination of military / mercenary demolition teams with some special effect advice to help conceal it.

Free Speech.

Sounds like a number of people in the article are supportive of free speech and interested in debating the topics laid forth. This is all we need to get a critical mass of citizens thinking about 9/11 in a new and more informed way. Events like this could pop up all over the country and if we have audiences supportive of free speech we have all we need.

This is a great country.

Why is it assumed by so

Why is it assumed by so many, that if the Towers were brought down by controlled demolition, that therefore "the government" had to do it?

How about someone else, like the intelligence agencies of a foreign government, who have a great deal of influence within our own system?

Well, this is probably the

Well, this is probably the case. However, most people can't comprehend that fact that we are indeed controlled by the world bankers.
The fact that this government has been COVERING UP the facts of 9/11 leads to their implication in the crimes.

allusion to Israel Mossad

I apologize. Hit the wrong key. Some rum gets in the way. What I was going to add was:

While Mossad may have been involved, my bet is that the 'shadow gov.' referred to by many (such as Bill Moyers et. al., and in various names - See Tarpley's descriptions) was certainly capable of pulling this off. But I see them as more CIA, MI6 etc.,-based. With the support of folks not specifically of one religion. But whoever is behind 9/11 (and we know some of the probable players) I bet only includes Israeli gov -LIkud- as a subset probably. The so-called 'global elite' whoever they are, appear quite capable of manipulating the populace and governments (Operation Mockingbird certainly appears as one tool.) Various states (their governments) appear equally to be tools.

I don't know.... These are topics about which I wish more information. For me, the issues of 9/11 specifically are a done deal.*..... an indictment against our goverment. And the opening to the futher truths about the world in which we live and struggle. [* though the issue of the promulgation of truth to a critical mass of people is -not- a done deal by any means.)

"There are none so hoplessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free" (Goethe)..... a paraphrase from V: Cast aside the illusions. Only when you are finally hopeless can you truly be free.

If they didn't

Then why are they trying so damn hard to cover this up?

The people in our government are smarter than you give them credit for ......and if they aren't that smart then they know people who are.
Ignorance is NOT Bliss

Cui bono?

It's simple: Who benefits?

Example: A wife dies under suspicious circumstances; the husband makes 2 million in life insurance benefits on a policy he bought a year ago. The cops are naturally gonna sniff his trail.

Who benefitted from 9/11?

The Bush government. Larry Silverstein. Dick Cheney and the entire military industrial complex. The leaders of PNAC, most of whom are in the curent administration, had both the motive and the plan in place. 

The 9/11 attacks could not have occurred without US government complicity and a total military stand-down while rogue planes flew to their designated targets.

 The US government has actively covered up the truth. The 9/11 Commission was a farce. They spent more time and money investigating Clinton's blow-job for heaven's sake. The "official explanation" is an insult to one's intelligence and violates the laws of physics.

I just registered so I could say this

Jim Fetzer is as much of an enemy as Dick Cheney to the 911 truth movement. And continuing to promote his disinformation campaign makes you an accomplise.

The 911 truth movement has been hijacked by a loud and vocal few who are deliberately trying to discredit the evidence or are so certifiably nutty that they have the same effect.

Morgan reynolds, Jim Fetzer, Alex Jones to name a few.

The 911 truth campaign has two components: evidence and politics. As long as people continue to align themselves with flakes, idiots, and operatives, the political side will fail.

It makes you wonder....

These few people are trying to divert the truth by introducing crazy ideas that hold no water... I can't say that I know what happened, and thats exactly why we should re-investigate 9/11. If we stick to the truth and the facts and the evidence, there is no need to explain any "theories" , just let the evidence quiet the "official" believers. I believe that this gov't is capable of "pulling the wool" over peoples eyes when it comes to facts. The fact that we are made to believe we have to pay INCOME TAX, or face harsh punishments, considering that it's unconstitutional to tax the private sector. In the words of Immortal Technique, "GOVERNMENT TIES IS REALLY WHY THE GOVERNMENT LIES"


If the government can't tax the private sector as you say, what are the taxable entities? Thanks.

If you really want to know

If you want to know what I'm talking about check this out.

From Freedom to Fascism

Thanks Middike. This sounds pretty good and is on my cue of things to watch here tonight. Peace.

no problem

Anytime.... It's worth watching in its entirety. let me know what you think

I would also suggest

Watching this documentary.

The Money Masters

actually I would watch this first before America Freedom to Fascism because it sets up everything from the beginning.

Yes, watch the entire

Yes, watch the entire movie.
Income tax is not appropriated which is against the Constitution.
You ask "then how would we pay for our services, education, roads, etc."
Watch the movie.
Education is almost entirely paid by the state tax.
Gasoline tax (42 cents a gallon!!!!) helps pay for roads as well as tolls.
There is phone tax, internet tax...pretty much everything tax.
Federal Income Tax goes directly to lining the pockets of the Federal Reserve, which is as Federal as Federal Express and is a private bank.
It gets complicated but people are winning court cases for not paying their taxes.
I, for one, refuse to pay Income tax ever again!
Imagine if we all did!

on taxable entities.

Our constitution clearly states that there shall be no capitation tax unless it is apportioned amongst the states.

There are taxable priveledges we can indulge in.... including alcohol, tobacco, firearms, corporate activity, Income from stocks and bonds, import tariffs ect...all very justly taxable!

But working to feed,clothe,transport, and house oneself is a god given right! NOT a priveledge. wages salaries and tips are not income!

Income means corporate profit! Income means exactly what it sounds like! that just....COMES IN ....!!!!
If you register and or own (in part or whole) any "corporation" that has money "coming in" might have income!
If you recieve "money coming in" from stocks and might have income!
if you work for the govt might have income

Taxable entities include anyone who (WANTS TO SELL) alcohol tobacco OR firearms must get a licence and submit to or "charge"a tax. SUCH IS THE PRIVELEDGE

Govt also has the power to directly tax its own employees, judges, congressmen, soldiers, police ect...ect....(direct or indirect) in other words if you work for Halliburton, Dynecorp Raytheon ect...ect...or other company that does buisness w/ govt you might be taxable.

P.S. never take out a student loan....they trick you into signing a contract that requires you to file "income tax confessions...until the loan is paid off!!!

If you gotta go out and get

If you gotta go out and get aint "Income"

about the student loan part

Can you give me a link to your source of information on the student loan thing. It would be interesting to learn more about. If that is true, then I have some work to do.....

sorry no link middike

yea I gotta confess I cant link to support my statement!

But I will say that I'm quite sure to qualify for a govt loan of any kind requires full finacial disclosure just like any other loan.THEY WILL WANT TO SEE TAX RETURNS take my word for it!

i know that but

I know you have to provide them with tax info but how do you know they have "tax confession"? until the loan is paid off?

I looked a little for student loan applications

but I didnt find much yet, lemme get back to you. I sleep now do bigger search tommorow.

Tax Resister Ed Brown in His Own Words

Ed is 64 years old. His wife is a dentist. They have not filed or paid federal income taxes since 1997. Prosecutors claim that the couple "owes" $625,000 in taxes. Ed expects federal agents to swarm his property soon.

"the new world order was born on september eleventh...."-Immortal Technique

thanks for the link

I forget sometimes that not everyone is in tune with what is really going on. Thanks for the link. "rockin' a flag don't make you a hero/word to ground zero/..."

Alex Jones.

Why do you say Alex Jones is an agent of disinformation? What has he said that proves to be wrong or leads us away from the truth? Thanks.


I would put him in the certifiably nutty category.

My first taste of "investigative reporting" Alex Jones style was a british documentary about Jones' infiltration of Bohemian Grove. In it, he displays his slippery grasp on reality by claiming occultist connections to the ceremony. I have never attended the Grove but I have a few friends who go regurly. It is a fucking camping trip. Everyone gets drunk all the time, eats opulent food and listens to live music. Jones' claiming that it's some kind of occult gathering of the New World Order undermines not only his own credibility, but the valid criticism of the event - namely, that it's an elitiest only expression of the ruling class departure from the more egalitarian foundation of American life, that it is a way for the ruling elites to adorn freshmen senators and congressmen with a glimpse of what awaits if they only play ball.

Personally, I don't have a problem with wealth or the right of those with it to enjoy it. But events like Bohemian Grove serve mostly to assimilate the young into the isolated world of power. I've seen it work at the Grove and DC cocktail parties. I belive in meritocracy, not aristocracy. And BG is just a playground for Aristocrats to imjpress and woo future aristocrats.

But I assure you, it's not satanic, most of the attendees have no idea what the so called new world order is, and Alex Jones makes his living feeding bullshit like this to dupes.

But even if he was for real, he is a horrible messenger. If the 911 truth movement wants justice done, it has to battle a coordinated campaign to discredit using the most absurd members. Check out this COINTELPRO memo from J. Edgar Hoover laying out a strategy to discredit the so-called New Left:

1. Preparation of a leaflet designed to counteract the impression that Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) and other minority groups speak for the majority of students at universities. The leaflet should contain photographs of New Left leadership at the respective university. Naturally, the most obnoxious pictures should be used.

This is an agent of the US government unstructing personel to target the New Left leadership with the most "obnoxious" photos they can dig up. The technique is not new. If only I had the memo where they discuss manufacturing obnoxiousness from scratch.

You can spend all your time navigating the maze of bullshit and trying to ascertain who's COINTELPRO and who's just an idiot. Or you can rid yourself of them all and get behind those who actually have some credibility and who don't use junk science, bullshit logic, or get their material from the X Files.

Steven Jones started off with a lot of credibility until he got in bed with the crazies/operatives. Now he complains unfair "guilt by association."

But he should have realized that this is a political issue as much as it is evidentiary. To the uninformed masses, the only thing that seperated his theory from those of the junk scientists is his title. Now, his name is almost married to Jim Fetzer and Alex Jones.

So, if I get you correctly,

So, if I get you correctly, it's OK that our leaders secretly meet and make decision's about America and deny it when asked about it?
Do they not have to let us, their employers, know where and when they meet to discuss our interests and "get drunk"?

Is that your only problem with what Alex Jones says?
Are the strange rituals they conduct on stage Christian?

I think youy're confusing

Bohemian Grove with the Bilderberg Group, the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission, the Business Roundtable etc.

Talking business is strictly forbidden at BG. Not that people don't do, I would imagine. And they have guest speakers who like to wax on about the role of the elites or other such tripe.

And, no, I don't approve of it. But if these wealthy individuals weren't in complete possession of our elected representatives in the first place by way of political contributions, then I would fully support their right to escape their hideous wives and play camp town in the redwoods for two weeks.

My point was that, by every credible report I've ever heard or read on the event, including personal conversations with attendees, it is not what Alex Jones makes big money selling videos claiming - that it's some kind of occult ceremony where they sacrifice a..., something and worship the owl god.

I believe the ruling class is ruining our world. They operate in secret, have an agenda that serves them at the expense of the environment, humanity and all sense of decency. And they are accountable to no one which is a violation of the most sacred principles of American democracy.

Fuck them and their camping trip. But making bullshit claims that are in no way founded in reality only helps them. It gives them cover. It allows them to say, "look. It's just those crazy conspiracy theorists again with their nutty claims that we're all a bunch of satan worshipers."

Bohemian Grove is probably the least offensive thing these people do when they get together. And if Alex Jones had the slightest clue, he would spend more time focusing on the WTO, Davos, and the World Bank instead of trying to one-up Art Bell with tales of the occult and owl gods.

Get serious.

Not many people have BG high up on their agendas

when it comes to spreading the word. Obviously, reports of occult rituals appear outlandish at first, so most likely this won't change anytime soon. However, it should be stressed that the bonding aspect of collectively doing such twisted acts in secret could be used as another tool for unifying the elite, or rather its toplevel pawns. Apparently, many representatives are compromised by pedophilia or some other dirt to enforce loyalty, so this theory doesn't seem very farfetched to me. How about you?

Regardless, I agree that we're up against a citizens jury. And as everyone knows, a jury are 12 people chosen to decide who has the better lawyer. Only this time, the jury is a tad larger.

Alex Jones is a great leader of the 9/11 truth movement. He has

not spread any disinfo of cartoon planes or space beams as have Reynolds & Fetzer, so don't try to libel him, you shill.

Alex Jones.

Thanks Colombo. I thought so. I have trusted him for awhile now. He is a little eccentric, but who isn't when they are striving for the truth. Anyway. Thanks for the clarification.


AJ has never led me wrong.... he's not perfect but I have learned more from him than any other person

Ignorance is NOT Bliss


You can read my post above for my case of why the guy is not credible to me.

But if I'm wrong that Bohemian Grove is really a secret occult gathering, even though the vast majority of its attendees are not aware of it, I still contend that he is not a credible leader to the vast majority of Americans.

I give the 911 truth movement about1 in 10 odds of success. And only that because the evidence is pretty overwhelming.

But the second your "leaders" start bundling 911 truth with the New World Order, space aliens, the Illuminatti, the secret occult, or any other such extraneous considerations, you lose.

911 is so complex I'm doubtful most people will buy it. You start trying to convince them of MIHOP plus all kinds of other bullshit, even if that other bullshit is true, you lose.

You people need to start thinking like a prosecutor. And the public is a jury. Make a credible, irrefutable case. Leave off that which you can't prove. Stick to what you can.

That is, if you actually want justice. If you just want to hang out on the internet singing with the choir, then by all means, Alex Jones it is.

i agree

Lets focus on what we know. Like you said, treat the situation like a court case. Without solid evidence and witness testimony, any assumption you make will not persuade the jury. Stick to the facts and let the evidence speak for itself

"That is, if you actually

"That is, if you actually want justice. If you just want to hang out on the internet singing with the choir, then by all means, Alex Jones it is."

What are you doing? Sitting on the internet typing to the choir.

Alex does more than you can ever do. You're either jealous or just a hater.

Good try, though!

agreed but

Its true Alex does more than me but the question is, How did he get to that point? He says 9/11 was a result of the "global elite" but if you really want to know who's responsible for 9/11, go to

I'm not a hater

And my point had nothing to do with whether anyone is activist enough or not.

I am simply suggesting that if you were a prosecutor, trying say, Donald Rumsfeld, for the crime of 911, would it be effective to call Alex Jones as a witness? No. The defense would destroy him on cross examination.

All they would have to do is pull up his website, and the many articles on UFOs, and the jury would think he's a nut.

You or I may find investigations into UFOs to be perfectly reasonable and worthy. But I assure you, most Americans would see it as loony tunes. And, at the very least, it would be used to discredit him to the jury.

Do you have no clue that 911 truth is essentially the same as a jury trial? And that the powerful forces aligned against you would love nothing more than to be able to hold Alex Jones up as the sole representative of the 911 truth movement, right along with and its articles on the New World Order, plantable microchips, and a "DARPA cyborg servant race"?

Is getting the "truth" out on the cyborg servant race important enough to sacrifice the tough challenges of getting the American people to wake up to the real horrors of 911?

I have absolutely nothing against Alex Jones personally. And for all I know, everything he claims in his radio shows and on his website are all true. But 911 truth is as much a political campaign as it is anything.

And allowing that campaign to be compromised by those with ulterior agendas, extraneous beliefs, or anything that doesn't accomplish the task of getting people to take a good, objective look at the evidence is unacceptible.

Personally, I want people to pay for attacking our country and our way of life. I want investigations and convictions. And in that context, I could give a fuck about cybord servant races, or aliens or what ever else might be going on "out there. "

In another world, I would love to track down all the witnesses at O'Hare airport who saw a UFO. It's an interesting story and makes the imagination soar.

But we are on the verge of losing everything because of the monsters in power. And holding the real 911 perptrators to account is the only way to restore some semblence of the country the founding fathers envisioned.

Is muddying the waters with claims that have nothing to do with 911 the best way to hold those people accountable. Is allowing those whose focus is on such matters as cyborg servants to "lead" the 911 truth movement really the best strategy?

You're typing out of your ass

If there are so "many articles on UFOs" on AJ's site you shouldn't have any problem linking to two or three of them, right?


Google is your friend, huh?

Congratulations, you found 25 instances of the word "UFO" on prison planet.

A quick scan reveals that half of those links are reprints of corporate press coverage of the truth movement - that's rich

Now would you mind linking directly to two or three of those "many articles on UFOs"?

Man, what do you think I'm saying

That I don't believe in UFOs? Or that all the stories on about UFOs are not credible so we should not trust Alex Jones? As in, he should have better UFO stories?

I'm not challenging the credibility of the UFO stories. I am saying they will be used against him.

I am saying that since he has chosen to spend his carreer investigating crp circles, chemtrails, UFOs and all kinds of other topics which require an extremely open mind, he is not a good representative, or witbness in the 911 case.

It's about perception. Now, I apologise if I offended you. But my personal feeling about AJ aside, my case is really about how Mainstreet will percieve him.

My point was what people who wish to discredit the movement will use his site and the mere fact that they even talk about UFOs to do so.

Personally, I wouldn't doubt that every story on there about UFOs is extremely credible and true.


Dude, you're confused

"he has chosen to spend his carreer investigating crp circles, chemtrails, UFOs"

I don't think we're talking about the same Alex Jones.


metalious, quick! Show us a

metalious, quick! Show us a link to where Alex Jones is investigating UFOs and crop circles. Maybe he has, I've just never seen em and I've been at his site for years.
Why must you slander one of the best 9/11 Truth weapons we have out there? What does that accomplish.
And, about your Bohemian Grove details....Alex Jones says himself that the ones that are open to people like your friends who "get drunk" there are very tame in comparison to the one's only the elite can attend.
I don't know personally, but Alex Jones is hardly ever wrong about things he has researched so much on.

"A strong people needs no

"A strong people needs no leader".

- Zapata

Now you could argue (rather plausibly) that we are anything but a "strong people", but the point here is that we shouldn't be looking for leaders in the first place. A movement based on a few "leaders" can be decapitated; worse still, it can be veered into quack territory a la Fetzer, making us a laughing stock. I fully agree with you that Fetzer and his ilk do great harm to the truth movement. That’s precisely why we should not regard him or anyone else as a tour guide to the land of milk and honey. If we are to become strong we have to stop looking for people to follow and become leaders in our own right.

As for AJ, I disagree with roughly half of what AJ says (politically), but he's no Jim Fetzer. AJ is not out pimping space beams and "no planes". Your argument that he discredits the movement by virtue of his website and its various news articles does not hold water, imo. Why? Well for one, because he’s done more to spread the word about 911 than any other person, especially amongst Christians (who form the bulk of the American population.); also, because those articles on his website (though admittedly outlandish) come from mainstream news sources. It’s a brave new world, friend. Wired magazine, popular mechanics, Scientific American and other cutting journals regularly report on implantable microchips, nanotechnology, LTL’s and other fiendish technologies. Someone has to amass these stories into a pattern, and right now that person is Alex Jones.

Once again, I have profound differences of opinion with Alex Jones on numerous issues; I also think his website is a slap in the face to aesthetics and good judgment ( a “live forever” banner at the top for the page!!?? WTF?). Clearly there are better spokespersons for the movement, for instance Tarpley, Chossudovsky and Griffin.

But plurality is the name of the game. There’s room for AJ and there’s room for Schoenman and there’s room for all the rest of us.

I’d like to hear more about Bohemian Grove and your knowledge thereof. Are you aware of the book the “Franklin Coverup” and the story of an off-season snuff film in the dark woods?

The Eleventh Day of Every Month

All good points

I may be being a bit hard on Alex Jones. I just see him as an exploiter of the extreme to sell things. Speaking of his website, be sure to check out this page.

But I wasn't really coming from whether he's credible to me, but whether he would be credible to Mainstreet USA. Perhaps I should have made that clearer. But just because I believe he's either a certifiable nutjob (or a guy with a marketing niche) is irrelevent. I already believe 911 was an inside job. My interest is on selling the truth to the American public.

Which is why I am emphasizing the political aspect of this.

Look, I'm an outsider to the conspiracy movement. I have for years worked in both mainstream politics and the media and I know as well as anyone what you guys are up against. Extremely few people in power or authority takes this seriously at all. And as long as the people who somehow seem to always end up in the news or on television - Reynolds, Fetzer, MI6 Assclown, and yes, Alex Jones keep being the face of the movement, it is dead in the water.

Just for the sake of politics, and penetration into the masses, you need people who are as normal, credible and unchallenged in any other field so that the only contriversial thing is they believe 911 was an inside job. Dr Griffin is as good as it gets in this regard. Eloquent, aware of how absurd all this may sound to the uninformed, and rock solid reasonable to turn them around.

More like him please.

I love the infowars shop

I finally got my package from them today - a month late!

But they threw in a free copy of Terrorstorm to make up for it.

I got two 9/11 Was an Inside Job t-shirts and a copy of America: Freedom to Fascism.

Plus a copy of the Constitution and 3 free stickers haha

The Eleventh Day of Every Month

spreadind the message

metaliuos is 100% correct. If this truth movement is going to go anywhere it needs man & women who can be believed.

I suggest this movement get's behind David Ray Griffin's book 9/11 & American Empire, intellecuals speak out. Everyone should read & push this creditable collection of work.

It was Bob Woodard's "all the president's men" that was the rock behind bringing down Nixon.

So I have to choose one?

and get behind them?

You're OK with DRG selling books?

The Eleventh Day of Every Month

metalius, your points are

metalius, your points are good in my opinion. I hope you are still consulting this thread, with my comment coming so late here.

You said, "But the second your "leaders" start bundling 911 truth with the New World Order, space aliens, the Illuminatti, the secret occult, or any other such extraneous considerations, you lose."

And by 'you' I think you actually mean 'we', right?

It strikes me strongly that there are structural issues preventing people from seeing, considering, wondering, thinking. I believe it is similar to, say, the early days of this country when plantations still had slaves. The structure of that society depended on slave labor. I would bet, especially in the early days, most people were just plain blind to it, not even noticing how it went against the very founding principles of the new nation.

That is why I also agree with your 1 chance in 10 assessment for 9-11 truth coming to any kind of fruition. I at least will take this low percentage as a huge challenge and press on all the stronger.

We do indeed need to put forward a normal face. This includes speaking calmly, even though it tends to be more fun to speak bombastically. The bombastic stuff will get shown on the news and quoted in the papers. It sells newspapers, but sinks a movement.

By the way, I also think your own sometimes cynical speech detracts. Do you know what I am referring to? Note how it offended a few people here on this blog, who are good people for sure, with the same goals as you, as me.

This an issue I am working on, since I too am very good at cynical speech. If you would like me to supply instances of what I am referring to, from your posts, just ask. But if you are like me in this, you already know what I am referring to.

This paragraph from you is quite stirring, and to me not cynical but just accurate: "But we are on the verge of losing everything because of the monsters in power. And holding the real 911 perptrators to account is the only way to restore some semblence of the country the founding fathers envisioned."


Thanks Student

I did note how I offended people on this blog. I could have been more thoughtful in my arguments. But, from my vantage point of an outsider, and someone who is not immersed in the conspiracy culture (though I'm more immersed than my peers certainly), I see this movement getting its ass kicked by internal divisions over who's a disinfo agent and who's not, by a loud and vocal few who seem to dominate the spotlight, and who have done more to discredit real hard evidence with their flakey bullshit, or, in other cases, with extraneous pursuits, than I would have imagined.

I smell a COINTELPRO campaign.

I recently presented the case for MIHOP to a journalist friend. This guy is the token beat reporter. He writes for a major, mainstream paper. It was a big deal for me to present him with this whole thing. It was only because of his respect for my objectivity and years of proven commitment to facts that he even entertained the notion.

Repeatedly, I had to warn him about searching this subject on the internet. I knew that he would use Google, which is good for finding the most popular sites, but bad for finding the most accurate.

It didn't work. Sure enough, he stumbled around and was presented with unsubstantiated theories, outright stupid theories, and wild claims, from his perspective, that the jews did it. I had to repeatedly explain to him that just because a schitzophrenic claims it's raining outside, doesn't mean it's not raining.

People need to realize just how hard this is for people to accept. We are claiming that members of our own government murdered thousands of its own citizens. The implications are overwhelming.

I also reacted hostily to the idea when I first heard about bombs in buildings. It made no sense. At first. It was Steven Jones' paper that got me to take a hard look.

I had always entertained the possibility of LIHOP. MIHOP seemed implausable. But one thing I just could not rationalize away - molten metal. I spent years studying physics. I know that there are no explanations for molten metal other than exothermic reaction.

But I searched and searched to see if anyone had come up with a solution to the molten metal problem. SciAm, Popular Mechanics, NIST, FEMA and numerous 911 debunking sites all failed to address this single problem in any credible way.

If there's a smoking gun, molten metal is it. And no one, to my knowledge, has been able to refute it. They attack Dr Jones. They divert and distract. But they never deal with the fucking problem of molten metal.

Now, there are other evidentiary components as well - free fall speed, horizontal projections, video of the antenae ducking before the shell etc. You all know them well.

But the single thing that was so compelling that I switched from a "maybe" to a "certainly" was the molten metal.

This, I believe, based on science, is the foundation for the case for MIHOP. And all the other circumstantial evidence - the Dancing Israelis, the warnings, PNAC etc. is a distraction at this stage.

At this stage because, while all relevent to motive and means, they don't get people to cross the barrier. They are so complicated, and often speculative, that they allow uncertainty.

This extraneous evidence should only be brought in AFTER the forensic case has been established. People need hard evidence. Molten metal is it.

If I were prosecuting this case, that's what I would start with.

But what do I see among the so called "leaders" of the 911 truth movement? Fetzer, Reynolds, Shayler, and others? Bullshit that has no chance in hell of convincing anybody of anything but that we are all a bunch of nuts.

The 911 movement is under attack.

And it is no coincidence that that attack is focused around the 911 Scholars. They were the ones able to do the most damage. To make people take a second look.

Well, they have been successfully neutralized. By association with Fetzer, Brown and others who are deliberatly sabotaging the group.

Holograms and beams from space are the weapons they have chosen to discredit the 911 movement. Who "they" are I don't know.

So what's the solution? You need to pick the people who are credible, who have used the strict method of science, and who know how to seperate forensic evidence from mere speculation, and stick with them.

You need to create a new site or blog or whatever that bans disinfo trolls and sockpuppets. Holgrams and space beams need to be banned. Fetzer and company need to be banned.

This site needs to ban users propagating the holgram bullshit. It needs to stop linking to stories about them unless it's to attack them for what they are, liars and accomplices after the fact.

There needs to be a site where we can send people like my journalist friend and turn them around.

This site, of course, wouldn't be for everybody. People who want to ramble on about the new world order, the illuminatti, or who think serious consideration should be given to the idea that all the videos of the planes hitting the Trade Towers are fake, these people will be "offended."

But, when considering what's at stake, and one need only watch the 911 widows to get a feel for that, it would be well worth alienating a few "allies" in the fight for 911 truth.


It looks like it won't be an easy win here, by truthers, for the reasons you bring up.

It seems to me that oeople generally get what they/we want. For instance, I felt I could tell, on simply lookiing at the current president, and listening to him, before he was appointed president, that he had difficulty telling the truth or even recognizing it. I think anyone can see this on his face as he talks. But 'we' wanted that kind of president -- i.e., somewhat less than half of those voting voted for him as opposed to Gore. That is a lot of people, desiring ignorance. Not that Gore would have been so very much better. But his face looks more truthful, to me at least.

Something like that same desire for ignorance seens to be happening again generally, around 9-11.

All that we here can do is adopt a patient attitude, and keep trying. Unless you have a better idea. You will notice that while there are some childish members here at 9-11 blogger, there are also some really thoughtful people. The childish stuff doesn't carry the weight that thoughtful stuff does. So let's post thoughtful stuff -- like your posts.

Just because

Jim Beam, Reynolds Wrap & Judy Jetson pretend being leaders doesn't make them leaders. I think it is very positive that the movement as such has quickly noticed the transparent obfuscation and reacted accordingly. CoIntelPro, eat your heart out!

I think your journalist friend would be well advised to reconsider his approach - disbelieving all "conspiracy theories" despite obvious, comprehensive evidence (not only molten steel, but also WTC7 and the wargames come to mind) because somewhere, he came across some BS unrelated except for sharing the label of "conspiracy theory"? Non sequitur?

There already is a site where you can send anyone willing to look. Several, in fact. Try 911 Research or Journal of 9/11 Studies for example.

Oh, and I don't think there's a need to ban proponents of the notorious spacebeam & NPT crap - unless they spam, of course - as evidenced, the vast majority doesn't believe them and calls them on their non-existent cases, which should give newcomers a pretty good grasp of the real orientation of this movement and thus defuse the disinfo.

Kevin Ryan, and Robert Bowman?

Does this mean Kevin Ryan, and Robert Bowman won't be there?
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