Anti-semitism, Or Legitimate Questions? You be the Judge!

Since a post including a link to this article was hidden by negative ratings, I decided to read it for myself to see what the big deal was.  Was someone posting hateful canards unjustly claiming some vast "Jewish Conspiracy"?  Never fearing to dip my feet in the waters of controversy, I found this account of Christopher Bollyn's recent interview with CNN.  Seems like pretty big news to me, and included in the text are various interesting facts about Israel's connection to the events of 9/11.

As always, let me say that while we must always be on guard against bigotry, that is no excuse for ignoring important evidence of ANYONE's complicity in the horrific crimes that we want a full accounting of.  It is therefore important that we have the ability to sort fiction from fact, and propaganda from real issues.  When, as the Harvard Crimson's budding young neocon journalists recently did, Jimmy Carter is referred to as the "controversial ex-president" for having written a book that takes the most middle-of-the-road view of the Israeli situation vis-a-vis the Palestinians, it is not surprising that raising the spectre of Israeli involvement in the Attack on America™ will be seen by many as tantamount to heresy. 

 We must, nonetheless, make every effort to "go there" if we want to a) resolve the issue of what actually happened on 9/11/01, and b) begin the process of healing that is in the best interest of everyone in the world, including innocent Jews everywhere who have no more responsibility for or control over the crimes of their self-declared leaders than Americans do over THEIR self-declared leaders.  We need only fear hatred when we are incapable of dealing with it head on, that is not by acting to limit serious and fair discussion of its fundamental causes.

I devote this blog post and the ensuing discussion to the issues surrounding Israel's connection to 9/11.  What are the facts?  What must we be mindful of in pursuit of a truth that may turn out to be both shocking and potentially threatening to innocent Jewish people in the same way that the framing of Arab Muslims has been to innocent Arabs and Muslims?  How can we make sure these issues are discussed without invoking dark elements of bigotry?  What is Zionism all about, and is it really impossible to separate it from the very idea of a State of Israel?

This is a discussion that needs to take place, and as fearless truthseekers, we should not shrink from our duty to ensure that it does, in a civil and non-hysterical manner.  In the words of our gracious hosts--let's have at it!


CNN sent a team from New York City to Chicago to interview Christopher Bollyn, 9/11 researcher and independent journalist, at the Schaumburg Township District Library on January 23, 2007.

Bollyn was interviewed for more than two hours by reporter Deborah Feyerick for a piece being produced by Sheila Steffen. The segment is expected to air at the end of the current week. Bollyn was told that the section of the program with his comments should be about 3 and a half minutes in length.

The CNN interviewers were very interested in knowing why Bollyn did not believe the official version. They were also keenly interested in why he thinks agents of the state of Israel were involved in the terror attacks on the World Trade Center.


Bollyn explained that the fact that Israel-based employees of Odigo had received instant text messages warning of the WTC attacks hours before they occurred and that these warnings had been accurate "to the minute" indicated that some Israelis (including employees of the Mossad-linked company) had clearly been forewarned.

"To have prior knowledge of a crime like 9/11 indicates involvement," Bollyn said.

Odigo had its U.S. headquarters a few blocks from the twin towers of the WTC. Had the Odigo warnings of an imminent attack been passed on to the authorities in New York City, thousands of lives could have been saved.

The CNN team was also very interested in the 5 "dancing Israelis" who were arrested in New Jersey after having been observed videotaping and celebrating the attacks on the twin towers.

Bollyn explained that he had investigated the story of the dancing Israelis through Paolo Lima, the New Jersey-based reporter who had followed the story in the days after 9/11. When it was reported by Lima in 2001 that the 5 men, who pretended to be movers, were Israeli citizens who had been caught with a van that tested positive for explosives, multiple passports, thousands of dollars in cash, and box cutters, Bollyn raised the question that they could be working for Israeli intelligence. The men also reportedly had been wearing Middle Eastern clothing to give the appearance that they were Arabs.

Months later, Urban Moving Systems, the fake moving company that the men "worked" for was exposed to be a Mossad front company based on information provided to the Forward newspaper of New York City. Dominic Suter, the head of the Weehawken, NJ-based Mossad front company, fled the United States immediately after 9/11 before the FBI could interview him.

After being released from U.S. custody, the 5 Israeli agents returned to Israel where they appeared on a popular television show and openly explained that their "purpose" had been sent to "document the event."

This admission certainly indicates prior knowledge of the attacks, which is proof of involvement.

See: "The Likud Criminal Gang Behind 9/11 and the War on Terror"

Here is the video excerpt of the Israelis' admission on TV:

The CNN interviewer repeatedly asked Bollyn, "Who did it?"

Bollyn responded, "I wish I knew," and described the 9/11 terror attack as "an unsolved crime." He explained that he does not speculate and works from evidence and information he comes across. Most recently, for example, he has been investigating the evidence that Thermate was used in the World Trade Center attack and demolitions.

The CNN program will also include interviews with critics of Bollyn from the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) and the Southern Poverty Law Center. The ADL, for example, has often labeled Bollyn as an anti-Semite, which is not true.


Knowing that the mainstream media is generally hostile to 9/11 skeptics and independent researchers, Bollyn, a scholar of Middle Eastern history, explained that there is a fundamental difference between Zionism and Judaism.

"There are Jews who are not Zionists and there are Zionists who are not Jews," he said.

If elements of Israeli intelligence were involved in the attacks of 9/11, he said, that would be very unfortunate but it should have no bearing on innocent Jews anywhere in the world. The state of Israel claims to represent the Jews of the world, whether they support Zionism or not.

Bollyn, who has lived in Israel and the Middle East, explained that while elements of the Israeli state appear to have been involved in the events of 9/11, they are from the most extreme right-wing group of revisionist Zionism. Many of the current officials in the government of the state of Israel are the sons and daughters of the terrorist Irgun organization of Vladimir Jabotinsky, the people who first brought terrorism to the Middle East and the world stage in the 1940s.

Asked why 9/11 would have been done by Zionists, Bollyn said that as the "New Pearl Harbor," 9/11 had been carried out to sway public opinion and usher in the on-going War on Terror.

This so-called War on Terror, he said, was first promoted publicly by the former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in his book, Terrorism: How the West Can Win, in 1986.

The current U.S. military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan are exactly what Netanyahu called for in his book. The Bush administration has followed the agenda of Netanyahu's war on terror in the Middle East to the letter since coming to office in 2001. This policy, Bollyn said, is disastrous for the U.S., the region, world peace, and ultimately, even for the Jews.

Ehud Olmert, the current Israeli prime minister, is a financial crook and a war criminal, Bollyn said. He was the co-defendant, with Menachem Atzmon, in a criminal financial scheme to raise funds in the United States and elsewhere for the Likud party when he was treasurer of the party in the late 1980s.

While both men were involved in the scheme, Atzmon was convicted while Olmert was acquitted. Olmert went on to become the mayor of Jerusalem while Atzmon became a "security expert" at U.S. and European airports as the CEO of his "security" company, International Consultants of Targeted Security (ICTS).

On 9/11, Olmert's old political ally and co-defendant Atzmon was the owner of Huntleigh USA, the company that provided passenger screening and security services at Boston's Logan airport and the airport of Newark, New Jersey.

See: "The Israeli Prime Minister's Connection to 9/11"

While Bollyn's comments to CNN will certainly be drastically edited, he sincerely hopes and expects that CNN will not distort his opinions or allow him to be smeared as an anti-Semite.

Bollyn not the right witness

Obviously, it is almost impossible to have a rational discussion about Israel in America. We must have this discussion, however, when referencing 9/11. My concern, however, is twofold:

(1) People like Bollyn, and his publication, are not the right representatives for this discussion. He is not a journalist of unblemished integrity, and his publication is integrated with anti-semitic groups. CNN will point this out, and Bollyn's credibility will be destroyed, even though Israel is in some way connected to 9/11.

(2) By pounding away at the Israeli connection, and creating an almost obsessive focus on it, one inevitably puts too much emphasis on the connection, and ignores more important, more problematic power brokers right in America, not across the ocean. In this sense, the Israeli connection becomes a distraction.

I share your frustration over the biased mainstream media coverage of Israel on the world stage. I appreciate your attempt to discern the difference between the radical extremists in the Israeli government who may have had a hand in 9/11, and the average Israeli citizen who did not. But I don't think Bollyn is the right messenger, and I don't think American media will allow for a serious discussion of Israel's possible connection with 9/11.

The paradox here would seem to be the fact that the more Israel's influence in America is ignored by the media, the more anti-semitism tries to fill in the information gap, which actually makes things worse for Jews in America. On the other hand, I don't blame Jews for not wanting to "go there," given the long history of anti-semitism in America and around the world.

thanks Simuvac

For staying on topic, unlike some people >kof< DHS >kof<... I think you hit the nail on the head--your paradox is correct. I think this is deliberate. In the absence of a balanced dialogue, people are treated to two wildly extreme positions, neither of which is satisfactory. In the end, though, people will be less likely to side with neo-nazis than with "Israel can do no wrong"ers, and that may seem like a good thing but it isn't.

On the other hand, we have to consider the predicament of Arab and Muslim Americans and their counterparts around the world who are bearing the brunt of the crimes committed. The non-Jewish people of the Middle East have also been treated harshly by history, and the evry least we owe them, whether we are Jewish or not, is to hold Israel to the same standard we hold every other country whose citizens or partisans may have had a hand in the planning and execution of the events of 9/11.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


Rich versus everyone else

The paradox probably applies to Americans in general. Americans are demonized worldwide because of the actions and beliefs of a relative minority of American citizens. Anti-Americanism functions in the same way as anti-semitism: it extends blame for the actions of a few to the many (or all).

I'm not sure what you mean by this: "In the end, though, people will be less likely to side with neo-nazis than with "Israel can do no wrong"ers, and that may seem like a good thing but it isn't."

If you are implying that people should side with neo-nazis, then I vehemently disagree.

Personally, I think the corporate media obsess over cultural divisions such as race, ethnicity, and religion so that people don't recognize the real form of solidarity that unites them: economic class. This is a war of rich against everyone else, and everyone else is losing (socially, environmentally, spiritually, you name it).

preaching to the choir, man

I agree 100% that the main division in the world is class-based. That said, the ruling class is not always the same composition--people rise and fall into that class, as do entire groups. The rulers are expert in the tactics of controlling information and dividing people in order to better control them. That is what I meant by it not being a good thing that more people side with Israel-firsters than with neo-Nazis. We should side with neither of those groups, because they are two sides of the same coin, two heads of the same beast, whatever--they serve each others' purpose.

Right now it seems clear to me that the state of Israel's main purpose is not to function as a haven for the world's Jews. The WORLD should be a haven for the world's Jews. Israel is used, much like America, by apolitical elites in order to have armies at their disposal to do their dirty work for them. To be used in this way, those populations have to be terrorized into thinking that the object of the elites' warmongering lust is the populations' greatest enemy. This is the pickle that the first Jews to settle in Israel were forced into. Fleeing persecution, they found a home ready-made for them by the British elites who could not stand to give up their stake in such an important area of the world. Naturally they did not find a haven, but more persecution, but this time persecution that served a purpose to the elites, among whom were the earliest Zionists. To serve as an easily manipulated army in an outpost of vestigial colonialism in an important location.

Having Mossad carry out part of the 9/11 plot, in conjunction with our own home grown traitors was a win win for the elites. They hoped that either Muslims would be blamed without question, justifying their takeover by force of their resources, or that if the truth came out, People could be just as divided over what it meant that Israeli elements were involved. Real anti-semitism could then be fueled and the necessary divisions exploited. Or, the truth could remain ambiguous and, as the strategy of tension dictates, the potential energy for manipulative attacks would be everywhere.

I want people to understand that I do not focus on Israel out of anything but good will to everyone. Treating it like it has something to hide is worse than treating it like any other country. It's not the state we should be concerned with it's the people. As it exists today Israel is making Jews become more isolated than ever. See Israeli Gilad Atzmon's truly breathtaking essay 100 Years of Jewish Solitude ( to understand the dynamics of this. We know that separate but equal is a misguided delusion, but it is exactly what Zionism is about.

9/11 certainly complicates matters but either way you slice it is was made to divide, and to deal with it and whatever fallout comes we will have to fight the tendency to be divided. I however cannot do that when people seem to be blatantly covering up important facts without the knowledge of which we cannot have a true understanding of what has happened to our world and what is being done to us by whom. I have every desire to live in a world where EVERYONE is free, safe, and capable of loving and being loved. I have NO desire to see the propagation of ignorance or hate. And I have no intention of being intimidated from doing what I believe to be necessary, regardless of who I may offend, to see that the vision of a world at peace, one for which I simply carry on the torch from people much greater than me, has a chance to one day become reality.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


By pounding away at the al Qaeda connection...

"By pounding away at the (al Qaeda) connection, and creating an almost obsessive focus on it, one inevitably puts too much emphasis on the connection, and ignores more important, more problematic power brokers right in America, not across the ocean. In this sense, the (al Qaeda) connection becomes a distraction."

I'm not a fan of Bollyn's, and for just the reasons you describe. However, I'm extremely skeptical of the almost total unwillingness of some Truthers (not saying you personally, Simuvac) to examine the likely role of Mossad et al. Right now, two extraordinarily pernicious myths are at work in the American consciousness: that there is an international group of Arab Muslims working hard to destroy us, and that criticism of the State of Israel (and its intelligence apparatus, in this case) always involves some degree of anti-Semitism.

Strategic thinking

Al Qaeda is unquestionably a fabricated distraction. I agree. But while I do think it is important to consider the evidence that supports Mossad involvement on 9/11, I also think we should think strategically about the main goal here: an independent investigation of 9/11. We have to be realists (and, yes, I know it's not terribly realistic to hope for another investigation of 9/11).

I would distinguish between two activities: (1) discussing the facts of 9/11, as we do here; and (2) formulating a kind of public relations effort to bring about another investigation of 9/11.

With the case of Israeli involvement, it's probably one of those things best kept to (1) and not (2). This is not a compromise of free speech, or an act of cowardice in the face of big government. This is simply trying to find the best strategy for accomplishing our goal.

I say, make the best case for an inside job while offering our opponents as little ammunition as possible.

Warning: Heresy Ahead

I agree with you regarding a strategy to accomplish (2). However, I find myself leaning more and more away from the goal of "new investigation" for the simple reason that I cannot imagine how a truly fair investigation could ever be accomplished. Instead, I'm tending more to the disturbingly (to me) airy-fairy and vague sounding "When enough of us know, something will happen." If dissemination of knowledge is the goal, then I'm not sure all the same rules apply.

Full disclosure

OK, I don't think of that as heresy. You're right (as I tried to intimate): the chances of a new investigation (and one that is truly independent) are exceedingly remote.

Perhaps "full disclosure" is the most we can hope for. Let people what to decide to do next.

I still think one needs to think of all of this as a public relations exercise. One needs a coherent story that people can understand and believe. The government was praised by many for producing the 9/11 Commission Report as a "non-fiction" book that "read like a thriller." So, part of their success was the way in which they framed their story. We should keep this mind, even as we probe the issues in search of full disclosure. The Israeli Connection produces a certain problem, in this respect.

agreed, it's an issue of framing

And when any criticism of Israel is framed as saints versus Jew-haters, we all lose, especially Jews. Treating it like a third rail MAKES it a third rail that no one wants to touch. But the silence is deadly--we HAVE to learn to discuss Israel effectively and constructively. It's not just about 9/11, the entire War on Terror seeks to make a global paradigm out of the Israeli example. Divide people, encourage violence between them, then step in as the state to "keep the peace" by taking away civil liberties. If we don't want that replicated everywhere, not just in the US and Iraq, we will have to learn to act like adults and stand up to name calling, no matter how vicious it gets.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


Show "(No subject)" by Brend
Show "The Jesuit Order is the hub of evil" by Brend

The Jesuit Order is the hub of evil

Let me give the short version (although its almost impossible to make it credible in this way):

The main two players working to create an unattainable New World Order:

- The Jesuit Order (or the Society of Jesus). A 500-year old masonic/satanic military intelligence network which controls the Vatican and the white Pope. The Jesuit leader is called the Superior General (or the Black Pope). The Jesuits are in complete control of the international intelligence community: that's the CIA, the FBI, the KGB, the Israeli Mossad, the German BND, the British SIS. (Note: even many Jesuit-affiliated people have NO IDEA what the order is about, what it has done, and what their current agenda is). The Jesuits are more or less in control of all the other masonic lodges out there (directly or behind the scenes). They want to cater to all sides, so these groups can be controlled by the Vatican. If they can't control directly they use extortions, framings and bribes.

See also: (excellent podcasts) (excellent podcasts) and Secret Instructions of the Jesuits

- The Labor Zionists (Note: there are several different forms of Zionism). An Ashkenazi Jewish mafia network, backed by the Rothschild banking family. Israel was a Rothschild's project. They are all Bolshevik/Nazi/fascist traitors who hide behind the cloak of anti-semitism. The Rothschild's worked together with Hitler and the Vatican during the whole of WWII. Many enlightened Jews, who did not want to go and live in Israel were murdered. This is exactly what the Jesuits wanted. They did the same to the Ottoman turks, the Russians, the Ukrainians, the Kosovo people, the Iraqi's and many more deaths will follow. Bush even called this war on terror the "CRUSADES" just after 9/11. Most Jews (and Muslims) are completely unaware of the dangerous position they are being tricked into. We should only look at the _actions_ of these Labor Zionists, not simply their ethnicity or religion (that would be discrimination).

The goal is to DESTROY THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA as we know it. Then take more control of it its force, and use it for their own purposes. This is why it matters to the rest of world what happens to the United States today. Look what they have done to the Philippines, Cuba, Haiti and dozens of other synthetically poor nations. And don't be fooled by their big cloak of charity organizations, schools and 'research' institutions (such as the Club of Rome) around the world.

This Jesuit plan has been in production for hundreds of years.

The main reason for the North American migrations (from the 1600's onwards) were to get away from Roman Catholic oppression and prosecutions in Europe. The European Kings, Aristocrats and the Vatican/Jesuits would never EVER allow a free state with free people - with other religions, mainly protestants - to exist. The pope claims the earth, and everything on it belongs to God and _thereby_ also to himself. Anyone who thinks otherwise, is a heretic, and may be executed. So the Jesuits plotted all they could to destroy this creation of freedom and wealth.

This is the truth behind the New World Order. The enemy is the Jesuit Order and all of their masonic connections, including the Labor Zionists.

Don't take my words for it, research it for yourself, but do it NOW. We need to start understanding the real masonic problems in the US and abroad. Know the enemy. Know their strength (stealth, fear mongering, murder) and their weaknesses (they are psychologically immature, they don't live by awareness and truth, they are in small numbers, they are easily identified once you know their strategies.).

More Jesuit background:
- The wise warnings from Charles Chiniquy (He educated Lincoln about the Jesuit conspirators. Lincoln got killed shortly thereafter.)
- Canon law (Vatican 'Universal' law)
- Congress of Verona and the _secret treaty_ that came out of that. See also the Monroe Doctrine - the US reaction to that European conspiracy.
- Secrets of the Bank of England Revealed
- Knights of Malta (they ordered the murder of President Kennedy)

quit the spamming

Can people get banned from this website for spamming?

Then stop the censoring. That is much worse.

If I put time into a argumented comment, and people censor it without any debate, thats beyond stupid.

What justifies this censorship? Tell me.

O, you say its forum voting democracy? Those disinfo agents probable have multiple accounts. What kind of democracy is that?

Go ahead ban me, but don't EVER think you can censor me without debate.

What justifies the "censorship"?

How about the fact that you are spamming the same material over multiple threads -- and it doesn't seem on topic in any of them?

Put together a piece about the Jesuits and their relationship to 9/11 (whatever that would be), submit it as a blog, and if it's published I'm sure lots of people will be happy to argue with you.

Show "Not true." by Brend

You posted it as a blog? Where?

It's not listed under your user account.

If your point is about "Labor Zionists" then write a post about that -- not about the whole history of the Jesuits and Masons.

PS I think the Puritans left England because of repression by the Anglican church.

That blog post needs to be audited first

Its an earlier copy of the same article, since it was being censored (as I expected) right from the beginning, without any real debate. _Thats_ what bothers me about this forum. Its easy for agents to suppress information. Its a thankless task to supply the people here with interesting, but controversial information.

"if your point is about "Labor Zionists" then write a post about that -- not about the whole history of the Jesuits and Masons."

My point was and is that those groups are connected, and need to be studied in that fashion.


But that's not appropriate for a post

in response to somebody else's blog. Wait for your own blog to be published.

It's not "disinfo agents" who are voting you down -- it's the same handful of users who consistently vote on posts. BTW, long posts, especially if they are perceived as off topic , are often down-voted just to condense them so people's eyes don't permanently glaze over as they repeatedly scroll past.

All my Jesuit Order posts short and long have been modded

into oblivion WITHOUT DEBATE.

There is a pattern there, and I've studied it on this forum.

And I personaly don't care about the length of a response to some post, I care about quality. All those short/empty/blabla messages without any real new info are worse IMO.

I admit that I also wanted to proof just how narrow minded many of the people in 9/11 business are. They feel comfortable talking about controlled demolitions, Larry Silverstein, Keith Doberman, Alex Jones' new video, etc.

But I know that 9/11 debate is not what is going to save the US from total authoritarianism. Its only a start. People need to face the real problems and challenges, no matter how confronting these are going to be.

thank you Brend--we will take it under advisement.

It's no surprise that people will vote certain things down. I'm not convinced of the validity of what you're posting, though to be honest I haven't looked too much into it. What you ahve to accept is that having your stuff voted down only means people will have to click on a link to read it by expanding it. It has not been censored. And many of us in fact read hidden posts to make sure we're not being unduly protected from actual real info (i.e. we know that disinfo agents may well vote down good info). Anyway, your point is made, and in all honesty I will consider what you have to say. For now, though, why not comment on something related to the topic of this blog post, and if you want, create a signature for yourself that says "Hey, check out the Jesuits!" or some such. Flies with honey, you know?


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


Thanks Real Truther

You are one of the good people here.

And I admit to being somewhat irritated with the modding-down, but I still stand by my points.

And thanks for noting my points. I'll see if I can get a more complete picture written down, but whichever way we look at this, it ain't pretty.

I just wanted to make sure that people see what is at stake here, if we fail to look at all the pieces of the puzzle. I recommend that everybody starts to look beyond what happened on 9/11 and starts to look at the infrastructure of people, organizations and financial flows behind. Its all just business end of the day for some people.

Bye for now.

I agree that there should be

I agree that there should be no censorship here. I have experienced it myself and do not like it. I know of other Truthers who feel the same way. I know that because they left me comments of support like I am leaving you.

The 911 Truth Camps

1. Controlled Demolition Camp
2. No AA77 at Pentagon Camp
3. No Plane at Shanksville Camp
4. CGI Camp
5. Space Beam Camp
6. Zionists did it and you are all ignorant to this Camp
7. Flight 93 was shot down camp
8. Planes were remote-controlled drones Camp
9. Bush did it Camp
10. LIHOP Camp

What we need to do is come together and create a Camp where all we do is demand answers to the Family Steering Committee's questions (all of them), and then take the information provided there, see if it checks out, and proceed.

All this infighting and debate internally doesn't do much.

///////////////////// - $1 DVDs shipped - email for info

Who elected the "Family Steering Committee"?

I sure didn't. Why are their questions more valid than anyone elses? Most of those "camps" up there are actually either pure BS, or legitimate positions on the available evidence. This silly "calls for unity" and "the families are in charge" nonsense is quite useful to those who would bury the truth. I mean, look how far the family's have gotten on their own. Could it be because half of those "family members" are not related to real victims but to people in on the conspiracy who faked their death? I think so. Go ahead and feign shoch at my outrageous bla bla unhelpful bla bla divisive bla blajust like Fetzer bla bla. It doesn't matter, I won't stop saying what I believe. And people won't stop thinking for themselves--this cat is out of its bag, dude.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


What i'm saying is...

there are reasons a lot of those questions weren't addressed, to cover some things up...exposing that would start to unwind the ball of twine....

And how can you be so sure that the information you take at face value as "acceptable" is legitimate?

///////////////////// - $1 DVDs shipped - email for info

ok fair enough

You raise two valid points, DHS...

1) The Family Steering Committee has valid questions. I don't dispute that. But I don't see why their questions should be the focus of truth seekers in general. They have particular viewpoints and concerns, which is great. While I suspect that as a whole they are not entirely untainted by unhelpful influences, I accept that among them are genuine victims' families with a right to organize and represent their interests as they see fit.

2) How do we know what information is valid? That's a question we should all wrestle with every day. I don't, as some would no doubt accuse me, latch on to anything that supports my "pet theories". I do not have "pet theories" I have a set of inclinations based on years of research into all of these facts. I have myself gone from OCT believer (with doubts) to LIHOP, to MIHOP, to.... what I believe now to be most likely the case. I have done this not on the basis of prejudice--far from it. I have done it as after careful evaluation of a wide range of sources of information. How do I know information is good or bad? While we can never be 100% sure of much, there are some pretty simple rules of thumb. I'll try to list some principles I use in my own evaluations, I would encourage people to suggest their own...

1) People who lie once have lied before and will lie again.

2) mainstream news sources are almost invariably incomplete.

3) powerful interests have more means at their disposal to disseminate falsehoods than do less powerful groups.

4) something that is false will be easily shown to be so usually. Claims that something is false that seem to overstate the case relative to the available evidence should be questioned.

5) when something can't be denied realistically it is usually admitted along with some spin to make it seem not so bad, if it cannot also be ignored completely.

6) certain truths are much easier for people to admit than others, and this is usually in proportion to the level of power enjoyed by those whose interests the truth threatens.

7) don't judge information solely by who the messenger is. Some might say Steven Jones is a Mormon and they have weird beliefs. But that does not have any bearing on his physics work which stands on its own merits, likewise Fox News is crap but even they will tell the truth sometimes.

8) When different sources with no discernible common agenda agree on something that is a good indication that it may be true.

9) Facts that could easily be proven or disproven are hard to misrepresent. If I say that my grandmother is a lizard living in Paris, that will be easy to prove or disprove (more likely the latter) but if I say my grandmother was a lizard who was buried on the moon that won't be as easy to prove or disprove.

10) Ten is a good number for a list, so I threw this one in. Sometimes things are said or done not because they are valid but because they serve an ulterior motive, like rounding out a list. If such an ulterior motive exists, question the information.

Of course there is very little that is certain or absolute in the world, but that can't stop us from drawing conclusions from the available data. Being open to being proven wrong is also important--no one is 100% right right off the bat and those who can't admit when they are wrong are doomed to be forever wrong.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


"What we need to do is come

"What we need to do is come together and create a Camp where all we do is demand answers to the Family Steering Committee's questions (all of them), and then take the information provided there, see if it checks out, and proceed."

There is plenty of over-lap in the people above who would/do fall into your proposed camp. At least 1,2,3,7,8,&9 are NOT mutually exclusive. It's strange to make a list implying they are.

"All this infighting and debate internally doesn't do much."

The point of the debate is to get our heads straight and keep each other "real". The only serious fighting I see is with die-hard #4 & #5 vs. everyone else.

And no, of course our time blogging/commenting/networking doesn't DO anything by itself--it's a means to an end: 911activism.

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

we don't have to agree on everything

but the day we stop discussing, we will have lost. the colonel is right--this blog is not the movement. the movement is in the streets, it is our combined activism.

I think it's funny that no one has yet really wanted to discuss the actual issues with regard to Israeli involvement. I've seen critics of Bollyn say he's a bad guy, others say that this is a bad issue to focus on, but no one actually disputing the facts mentioned in the post itself. Interesting!


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


Dude this is really not

Dude this is really not good;

"Could it be because half of those "family members" are not related to real victims but to people in on the conspiracy who faked their death"

Perhaps some of the people on the lists are faked, perhaps not, but real people died and their real families would be deeply disgusted at the implication. I do remember when you said some of the people on the planes might have been paid off to live on an island someplace, seriously man I agree with you on most things but that's veering of into some avoidable and unnecessary disinfo territory.

I totally agree about Israel, there are some real facts that do suggest it’s black-ops/Mossad had a role in the attacks. But Bollyn is absolutely the wrong guy here. I don't know if you've heard his interview with Kevin Barrett, but Bollyn does blame "the Jews" and he is a bigoted asshole.

I'm not married to Bollyn...

But it's a shame that more poeple aren't reporting on what he reports on. I can't find a link to Barrett's interview of Bollyn, can you provide? And I wonder--Alex Jones and Kevin Barrett interview Bollyn, and Loose Change cites his work. Should they not have?

Also, can you suggest "safe" sources that discuss Israel's role in 9/11?

On the issue of the victims, I can only say that anyone who genuinely lost someone on 9/11 has my deep sympathy. I had friends in the city that day who made it out safely but who could well end up getting sick from the toxic dust they breathed in. That doesn't mean I'm going to stop thinking critically--"paid to live on an island" doesn't ring a bell, and the truth is probably much less picturesque. But so much of 9/11 is about breaching mental firewalls of taboo subjects, I encourage people to speak freely, if carefully and explicitly. I am on record saying that yes, I tend to doubt the accounts of people dying aboard flights that I have no evidence were ever in the air, and I'll stand by that. It doesn't change the real issue which is that the planes were not responsible for the single biggest tragedy that day, the demolition of the twin towers with hundreds of living people inside.

Different "victims" different standards, sorry. And anyone who disagrees with me or is offended by me and decides to turn their back on the rest of the truth and deny justice to the victims in the towers is free to do so, though I would find that to be most bizarre. I am not the truth movement's keeper, I am an individual with views and opinions that may be disturbing to other people--sound familiar?


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


Dude I'm on your side, it's

Dude I'm on your side, it's just sometimes I think you got too far with some of the hypothesising, like a lot of people, although I got a few things wrong also.

I found the quote, you didn’t say anything about people living on an island, but people who say similar things do come out with bullshit like that and that’s probably why I linked it;

"Planes take off from somewhere, perhaps a military base, and these are flown into the towers after falsely identifying themselves as commercial flights. By this time, a number of people were selected to go on record as having been on the planes and died. These people would reap the benefits of being presumed dead--never again pay taxes, be liable for crimes or debts, etc. Still no one would be the wiser except those involved who would obviously not go around telling everyone they were involved in a scheme like this. They may have even thought that the planes would be crashed early in the morning, thus no one would be kiled (or very few) and been unaware of good Larry's plan to blow up the buildings. "

Also it's not Bollyn it's John Kaminski that started blaming Jews for everything while being interviewed by Barrett;

I got confused there, Bollyn's not the asshole I was thinking of. And I agree with a lot of the article and I do hope CNN's coverage is fair and without some bullshit "Anti-Semitic" label.

OK man

I appreciate constructive criticism AND corrections. I don't think I'm right about everything (no really) but I think groupthink has to be countered every now and then even if it risks offending some. For the record, when doing outreach in public I do NOT go into theories about passengers. I stick to things like CD and building 7. I am convinced that it's better to hook people with these obvious conundrums and let them find their own way than to try to sell them on my own personal take on what actually happened.

By the time people make it to this site, I assume they are ready for a real debate on all issues, so I feel a lot more free to let loose with slightly more speculative positions.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


Great job, Real Truther,

Great job, Real Truther, tackling this issue. Only you don't need to be so worried about awakening all sorts of awful anti-Semitism out there. To my mind, the "official story" of Jews suffering terribly through the centuries is about as valid as the official story of 19 Arabs with box cutters...,

Christopher Bollyn has only scratched the surface of the evidence against Israel/Zionists. The evidence against them is overwhelming, and points not to their "playing a role," but to planning and carrying out the attacks themselves. Examples of evidence:

1. FL11 flight attendant Betty Ong names passenger in seat 9B as a hijacker. That seat turns out to have been occupied by an Israeli-American dual citizen who was trained in an elite Isreali commando unit specializing in anti-hijack procedures.

2. All three airports involved-- BOS, EWR, IAD-- have their security services contracted out to the same firm: an Israeli-owned firm called International Consultants for Targeted Security. We are told that all the surveillance videos from the boarding areas of these airports, that would show us the REAL hijackers, were never made or disappeared.

3. WTC owner Larry Silverstein has close relationships with high ranking Likud members like Ariel Sharon. Did they get access to his buildings through him?

4. Coverup directed from the office of US Assistant Attorney General Michael Cheroff, a dual Israeli-US citizen whose mother was a Mossad agent.

5. 1967 attack by Israel on the USS Liberty ship in the Mediterranean shows a willingness of Israel to slaughter Americans as part of a botched false-flag. The fact that this attack, that killed at least 34 US sailors, was swept under the carpet by the media and government shows the depths of Zionist influence even as long ago as 1967. It's much more pervasive today.

thanks andrew

I know some of us feel more strongly than others about where the evidence points, but I can also accept that some people's tone in making their points makes it seem that they really just don't like Jewish people. All I can say is that knowing that divide and conquer is a time tested strategy of our opponents I will always be explicit as to what I believe to be the extent of involvement and to separate genuine assholes from people who have simply been lied to their whole lives and don't know any better. In the end none of us epoples are going to be going anywhere, we're all stuck on earth together and will have to learn to deal with each other without violence. it's a tough tough road, but we can't compromise our principles either--we have to stand for the truth, no matter what it is.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


Foreknowledge does not equal complicity


I applaud your effort at trying to start a reasonable debate about this issue. 911Blogger, especially now that anons are out, seems to be a place where we could talk about this without having to bend over backward to make it clear that we are not anti-Semitic. And I feel like the comments here indicate that to be true.

I do have a critical comment. I find the following statement to be incorrect. And being incorrect, I think it could send the wrong message that you are trying to find Israeli involvement where there is none.

"This admission certainly indicates prior knowledge of the attacks, which is proof of involvement."

This is where I think a lot of truthers wander off course. What do we know? Israel was one of the countries among many others whose intelligence agencies warned the U.S. about an impending attack. They all knew it was going to happen, just as many in the U.S. intelligence community, not involved in the attack, knew as well. As you know, their investigations got squashed.

So Massad had intelligence indicating that there was going to be an attack, and after warning the U.S. government, they also warned Israeli companies in the U.S. The administration was actively ignoring and suppressing these warnings, and so it makes sense that the Israelis took the initiative to warn their friends and relatives in harms way.

But I'm not sure any of that implies that Mossad or the Israeli government participated in the attacks. Foreknowledge doesn't imply participation, unless that foreknowledge was not properly dealt with. Saudi Arabia and Pakistan seem to have been a lot more connected to what happened, so putting too much emphasis on Israel can start to smell fishy. Not that this discussion is too much emphasis.

Personally I have seen no evidence that establishes Israeli involvement. None of the points in the post above this one do anything for me. It wouldn't surprise me, and we may yet discover that this was the case. But we need to be careful to not overstate what the evidence implies.

Don't you agree?

If I'm missing some of the data, please point me in the right direction.

International Truth Movement

What do you make of the televised interview

with the Israeli agent who says he was on the scene to "document" the attacks on NYC?

The Eleventh Day of Every Month

To reiterate...

Foreknowledge does signify complicity. Mossad knew there was going to be an attack. Mossad has agents in the US. Intelligence agencies document things. Mossad documented the attacks.

The fact that they had specific knowledge of the day and location of the attack is suspect. However, it does not directly imply complicity, it implies that they had good intelligence.

International Truth Movement

So they had specific knowledge

but they shared it with a small group -- rather than calling the FBI, NYPD, and all the media outlets and screaming their heads off? As you will recall, there was substantial "confusion" about whether the initial attack on the North Tower was terrorism or an accident. Do you think that if their foreknowledge had been more widely dispersed, people -- including the workers in the South Tower -- might have recognized the need to evacuate earlier?

Good thought, but maybe...

So they were complicit due to a lack of having used their intelligence to prevent the attack? Considering that they had already warned the US of an attack and got little response, I can't imagine the Mossad, at times quite cooperative with US intelligence services, subjecting their organization to the type of questioning that this would bring down upon them and their sources of information. No one ever said imperial powers were particularly compassionate.

Its quite possible that the Mossad agents didn't know exactly what was going to happen, but approximately where and when.

International Truth Movement

Where did I say "complicit"?

I was thinking more along the lines of moral culpability.

There's a difference between the kind of information many countries had when they warned the US that summer and the kind of info that was texted to people that morning to keep them away from the WTC.

I think there is a strong circumstantial case for Mossad complicity and probably direct involvement.

Now you're talking my language

"I think there is a strong circumstantial case for Mossad complicity and probably direct involvement."

Well said. For those needing a refresher on responsibly phrasing their level of certainty, this is a good example. It does not imply proof, and that's all I've been griping about. So your kind of saying we don't have probable cause yet, but maybe reasonable suspicion.

And about moral culpability. Not generally very popular anywhere. Unfortunately in the present case this line of reasoning leads to some ugly conclusions I doubt you or anyone here endorses. One possible interpretation, not lost on many of our anti-Semitic citizens, is the idea that they only warned Isrealis because they only care about other Israelis. I have documentation on this point:

Ya know, some of those bigots think they are real 9/11 truth activists. And I've run into a few bigots in our local 9/11 truth community. Specifically anti-Semites. As you probably know NY indymedia won't touch 9/11 truth specifically because they think that the movement is closely tied to anti-Semitic theories. They happen to be specifically full of shit, but not alone in thinking this.

So the movement is in a PR battle to draw a distance between ourselves, and those who really are way too focused on Israeli involvement for the wrong reasons.

Therefore, unless we can develop probable cause in this matter, rather than reasonable suspicion, this issue is peripheral to our core evidence. Once again, good area for research maybe. But we shouldn't go waving this in anyone's face for the time being.

The debate in here is refreshing. I hope I'm not rubbing you all the wrong way. When I get serious, I start to get linguistically specific, and I know that can come across as stuffy or pompous. But this IS all very specific, and I always hope to elevate the debate rather than reduce it.

- Jules

International Truth Movement

problem with stormfront

Is that much of what those people are discussing is totally legit, but is couched in racist rhetoric. how very convenient for some people! Maybe if the mainstream media did their job when it came to reporting on Israel, fewer people would be attracted to this kind of site. In effect, the mainstream media's censorship of any honest debate on Israel creates much of what is called anti-semitism these days. i would love to see sites like stormfront go away, but I can see several reasons why some people might be drawn to it--they see that in fact there is much that is hidden from them, and they believe that stormfront is tehrefore a source for truth. what a shame, but indeed it seems to be an effect the MSM is well aware of.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


Warning: Quicksand

We certainly agree that the US corporate media won't touch Israel accept in support. There are a wide variety of reasons for this. But there is also a subtext in your message that I want to address.

"In effect, the mainstream media's censorship of any honest debate on Israel creates much of what is called anti-Semitism these days."

I'm sure you know that anti-Semitism is endemic to Western culture, very much about hate and religious intolerance, and media censorship is not the primary cause. Although I know what you are getting at. But for every two people I meet who are curious about Israel's role in 9/11, I meet someone who's also a bigot.

I'm going to have to get back to something I mentioned earlier. Why are all these curious people you speak of, so curious about Israel? You have to acknowledge how selective this is. The mainstream media is covering for so many other interests, and the case for complicity is so much wider. Why is the widely acknowledged US support of Israel such a draw? What's the big truth to be found down that path? Saudi Arabia and Pakistan probably had as much to do with what happened on 9/11. Why aren't all these people bending over backwards to research those lines of inquiry as well.

Can you honestly tell me that most of these people looking into the role of Israel don't have some kind of biased motivation? I've met so many who do. And I'm not talking about you, or anyone in here, because I can tell we all have our whits about us. But I just want to make sure that we don't underestimate the prevalence of anti-Semitism in our culture and even our movement.

Hey, if I seem a bit punchy, its because the whole Kolodkin clan was exterminated in Poland in 1944. And seeing as that this country is coming to resemble Germany in 1938, I'm a bit on edge. I'm sure you understand.

Hey Jules

I'm very sorry to hear about your family (yes?), Jules, and I can certainly understand how that kind of personal history strongly influences your take on current events. I think this is a case where written communication like this may not be really adequate to address an issue in which some of us have a profound emotional investment and others of us are looking at it from a privileged position of comparative "dispassion." (See? Already that doesn't read quite right -- it is not meant to be in any way patronizing, for example.)

Here's what I would like to very carefully suggest. Certainly, hate and religious intolerance are constantly recurring motifs in Western history. It is possible to argue that this tendency has been manipulated by various ruling classes over time as a means of control. ("Hey, don't hate us... hate the Jews, gays, witches, Communists, Roma,THEM THEM THEM.") If that is still going on -- clearly it is -- then the media plays an active role. It is especially effective if they can pit one of these groups against another.

The fact that this country is more and more resembling 30s Germany is the thing that motivates me to get off my ass -- it is shockingly clear. However, I see a very strong similarity in the way our public consciousness is manipulated in regard to Muslims and Arabs and the demonization of the Jews that has happened on many historical occasions (and which lingers.) What if it's not the Jews who have the most to fear this time around?

Yes, certainly, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan played roles in 9/11. Pakistan and particularly the ISI's role has been explored in the most mainstream 9/11 movie -- 9/11 PFT -- and elsewhere. There has not been an equivalent examination of the Mossad.

nothing is black and white

I realize that not everyone is as concerned as they could be about the potential fallout from a full acounting of Israel's activities against the United States, which is why as a critic of Israel I make a point to draw clear lines between what I believe are the actions of elite players (albeit rogue elites, to some extent) and ordinary people who are too misinformed to know what some in the Israeli leadership has been up to. In the same way as I do not hold individual soldiers accountable for the crimes of their leaders, from the commander in chief on down. While it is very disappointing that more of these folks don't seem to be able to see the flaws of "their side"'s rhetoric, it is a lot to ask of some people to intuitively grasp that they have been lied to to the extent that they have.

The problem with Israel is that it is not and never has been a solution to the problem of real anti-semitism,. I mentioned in a previous post that the world should be a haven for Jews and for everyone else. The minute we start buying into the notion of exclusive states based on race, religion, or ethnicity as a way to protect the interests of such group we fall into a trap, because nationalism has always been a dangerous thing--a way for powerful people to influence in negative ways the masses under their sway.

While I'm not an expert on WW2, I have in recent years become interested in learning more about the hidden history that we don't learn about in xchool or in mainstream documentaries. One fact that truly shocked me was the extent to which pre-war Zionist leaders reached out to Hitler's government. They did so based in part on what they professed to be similar values (echoes of those shared values we hear of these days) with the Nazi philosophy, namely the belief that nations could and should be formed along racial lines--to each people a fatherland, if you will. In fact, National Socialism, in which the individual is assumed to be beholden to and subservient to the "fatherland" is oddly enough a fairly apt description of Zionism. While many people take offense at comparisons like this, that is more a knee-jerk reaction than anything else. What we call fascism rising in America is in fact a process in which America comes to resemble more and more the Israeli state where the very people the state claims to be protecting are, under the guise of security, made to live like prisoners--and I do mean Israeli Jews--the treatment of Palestinians is a very different problem, disturbing in its own right.

Ignorant people can always be counted on to be most strident in their actions and words against a perceived enemy. We need not just look at white supremacists in America--what of the young Israeli girls who decorated the ordinance that would later be dropped on their Lebanese counterparts with messages of hate? They are easily manipulated by adults, as easily as ignorant whites are manipulated by the likes of David Duke. These are, of course, people at the fringes of society, or so one would hope. For them to truly be fringe, there has to be a strong "middle of the road", which sadly seems to be shrinking.

False flag teror like 9/11 is designed to eliminate the middle road of compromise so as to present unappealing binary choices as the only alternatives. With us, or with the terrorists they say. That's not a choice, is it? I feel like I'm rambling so let me sum it up this way--the powers that be find it very useful to divide people. One way to do this is to distort a debate such that two sides can seem poles apart when in fact there is ample middle ground for those who are able to see past the propaganda. Sometimes what is known by some to be propaganda is believed by others to be the gospel truth. There is a problem there that we are not addressing very well. If there is a problem--a REAL problem of anti-semitism (and I believe there is to a certain extent) then it makes little sense to make that problem worse, or have it perceived to be worse by identifying anti-semitism where it does not exist. We know how common it is for any criticism of Israel to be labelled as anti-semitism or self-hatred (see for a vivid example) and those of us who make every effort to make clear our positions on racism and hatred are rarely taken at our word. This is a problem, again, because we are the ones trying to find middle ground, and have a hard time of it in the current media climate.

It doesn't help much either when we see the hysteria surrounding legitimate historical questions about the holocaust--it is simply unconscionable to put people in jail, as is being done in Europe, simply because a person discusses topics which call into question a widely supported historical narrative. It is not just wrong in principle, it is plainly harmful to the very historical narrative which it purports to defend. Unless of course the narrative IS wrong, making it illegal to question it only increases people's concerns that it may be wrong, If the narrative is on solid ground (and if it isn't it should be questioned) it does not need laws to protect it. Will some people attempt to undermine the historical narrative for the wrong reasons, and perhaps with unreliable and/or blatantly wrong claims? No doubt. We see that every day in America with revisionism that, for example, still tries to paint Vietnam as a good idea, or Nixon as not such a bad guy, etc. However much I disagree with those efforts, I would more strongly by far disagree with imprisoning people who chose to make alternative cases from the dominant accepted view.

We should all be concerned with the new lies that are being told daily, and the new harmful realities being created, but we cannot pretend that this is a new phenomenon. We have learned from 9/11 just how easy it is for a false narrative to take hold on the flimsiest of evidence, and this in the age of the internet. Clearly there is much history to be revised, especially here in America where we are too often concerned with whitewashing our past than with cleaning up our act.

It is only through truth and the unfettered pursuit of it that we can begin to reestablish trust between the world's people, to begin to undo centuries of manipulation by elites, and to begin to build a world that does not fixate on racial or ethnic background, but on common decency and the rights of individuals. This importance of this effort can't be understated, and those of us who care enough to devote our lives to it will have to speak to the concerns of many different groups as we do it. In return, we can only hope that others will follow our example and make their own efforts to bridge every gap of understanding that holds us back from real unity as a human family.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


Jules, about foreknowledge...

I would refer you to Carl Cameron's report, in which Cameron states that his sources in the FBI told him that the warnings provided by Israel were not specific as to the date and place. His explanation was that this may have been because Israel wanted to protect sources and methods, because those sources and methods involved illicit espionage in the U.S.

The nature of this case is such that a real investigation is necessary in order to prove complicity. Since we know for a fact that an investigation is being resisted, we have no choice but to lay out all the circumstancial evidence that we have in order to raise awareness and build pressure for an investigation to take place.

If we succeed and pressure our leaders to conduct a real investigation, we know that we will have to follow their investigation and assure ourselves that it is being conducted fairly and in good faith. To be assured of this, we have to know as much as we can about the case, and that includes probing all angles.

The circumstancial evidence links Israeli elements to the crimes--not necessarily proving their complicity but painting quite the picture of suspicion. I will try, from memory to list some of these connections...

1) the dancing Israelis. No one seems to be denying they were there, that they were arrested, that they were interrogated, that they blamed Palestinians, etc. This seems to prove foreknowledge, not complicity, I grant you that. But it also proves slightly more--the desire of these Israelis to place the blame on Palestinians for the crime, when no evidence suggests any such connection.

2) the lucky owner. Larry Silverstein has high level connections with hard line Israeli government officials, and no doubt with their American counterparts. It is difficult to believe that he would have been unaware of the plans to demolish the twin towers and building 7.

3) the spy ring. Over 200 Israelis were deported after 9/11, officially for violating the terms of their visas (i.e. being in the country illegaly) but it is known that many of them had been subjects of a probe into suspicious activity involving apparent surveillance of US government offices and officials. Several of them are known to have lived in close proximity to two groups of alleged hijackers. Israeli government agents had previously been implicated in the compromising of a DEA investigation into ecstasy smuggling, which depended on access to illicit wiretaps on the phones of US law enforcement, whose actions were revealed in advance to the subjects of their investigation. Secret wiretaps could reasonably explain the reluctance of US politicians to act on the considerable evidence that a new investigation into 9/11 is needed, since many may rightly fear their private conversations being made public.

4) Subsidiaries of an Israeli company provided security services at both airports from which the alleged hijackers boarded their flights. While we do not have evidence that the hijackers did in fact board flights that day, we can't be sure that these security companies may have been involved in tampering with planes involved in the attacks. These companies have moreover been protected by the US government from prosecution in connection with the attacks.

5) 9/11 related court cases have been assigned to a single judge, Alvin Hellerstein of New York. Hellerstein and his wife are what one could fairly call strong supporters of Israel.

6) AIPAC, the Israeli lobby in the United States, wields undue influence over politicians from both parties. Recurring spy scandals do not seem to tarnish this organization's clout in Washington.

6) Michael Chertoff, a dual Israeli/American citizen, was appointed to head the department of homeland security after Tom Ridge, also seems to be related to Ben Chertoff, who among others replaced the staff at Popular Mechanics and was involved in penning a rather flawed piece in support of the official conspiracy tale.

7) The program enabled by the events of 9/11 is the work of neoconservatives with longstanding ties to Israel, politically, personally, and in business; it is a program that seeks to align US and Israeli interests in the middle east, purportedly to provide Israel with a higher degree of security.

Given these circumstances (and this list is limited by my memory so there are surely a few more) I believe that determining exactly what role Israeli agents or their American supporters have played in this case is of paramount importance. And yet... and yet it seems that many want no attention paid at all, and dismiss our concerns as motivated by bigotry. The picture that emerges must be taken seriously. Let me add finally that I am not at liberty to discuss each and every encounter I have had with people that lends credence to the case of Israeli complicity. I have on occasion been approached by people who seem keenly interested in discouraging me from considering the possibility of Israeli involvement, who make statements I know to be false. And not just in regard to 9/11--in my experience protesting the war in Iraq I have also had interesting encounters with Israelis who seemed very much engaged in a kind of information gathering.

None of this proves complicity, no. But then, nothing out there proves the complicity of anyone else, so in the absence of a real investigation that comes to credible conclusions as to the actual perpetrators' identity, we are correct, I think, in paying close attention to all aspects of the case that would point in the direction of Israel.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


Thanks for all the info

I'll take all of this into consideration. Thanks for taking the time to fill me in. I've reviewed most of this evidence previously, but I'll take another look.

International Truth Movement

I'm surprised you seem to

I'm surprised you seem to know so little about this man, it goes beyond "warnings". You've got the "removal company" the 200 "art students" the "dancing Mossad agents", Netanyahu saying that 9/11 was quote "very good…….Well, it's not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy (for Israel)", you've got Chertoff letting all the arrested Israeli agents (200 art students and the dancing operatives) go back to Israel on visa volitions (at different times - some went sooner, some went months later after interrogation, failed lie detector tests etc). And there's quite a few other things also, it goes much further then "warnings", I do feel Israel played a direct role in the attacks one-way or another.

It couldn’t have been exclusively an Israeli hit, because they were working with the rogue US apparatus etc. But there is a clear case for involvement that shouldn’t be dismissed. And I do share the frustration that RT has because too many people do think this is only a small issue about "warnings", or something only promoted by Anti-Semites. This isn’t small, and I’m certainly not an “Anti-Semite”.

Not quite


I said that none of the evidence that I had reviewed gave me sufficient cause to suspect that Israel was specifically involved. I might personally believe that Israeli involvement is likely, but that's a far cry from having enough evidence to promote it as the truth. If there is a clear case for involvement, I agree that it should not be dismissed.

You express the assumption that my opinion could only have arisen from being naive, and I'm going to have to take exception to that. All of the points mentioned in this thread I am familiar with, and I find that none of them establish that Israel was directly involved in the planning or execution of the attack. Once again, foreknowledge is not complicity.

Of course I remain curious and open to any new data. But for the time being, this is a marginal issue to me in my effort to educate the public about what happened on 9/11. From what you are saying, this is a solid topic of focus for our research community. But I'm not so sure this line of research is ready for any definitive conclusion. I can certainly change my mind.

Where should I go to find out more about this?

International Truth Movement

You see I say “not

You see I say “not quite” to your “not quite”, because this information is very relevant and can’t be described as “marginal” by anyone wanting to evaluate the whole situation. Although I do agree that all we need to promote is the information sufficient enough to secure a real investigation.

Let's focus on the 200 Israeli intelligence agents who were busted by US authorities, and exposed for conducting a huge Israeli spy ring. Some of these people were apparently explosive ordnance experts, and they were posing as "art students".

Even FOX news, a channel owned by Rupert Murdock, a confessed Zionist and close friend of Arial Sharon, had to cover this "Israeli spy ring" story because it gathered so much momentum. So they did a series of pieces on it, which apparently explained that the "art students" were, tracking the "9/11 hijackers" and going around to US intelligence institutions etc or something to that effect, trying to sell them art work, while planting bugs and stealing documents. FOX news reported that the fact this coincided with the lead up, and occurrence of 9/11 was suspicious, but just said that Israel might have known something about 9/11 before it happened, but nothing more.

FOX News:Israel Is Spying In And On The U.S.? Parts 1 to 4

This FOX news version of events seems to be a smokescreen cover story, as Israel had "warned the US" that there were going to be up to "200 Al-Qaeda" operatives inside the US coinciding with 9/11, but none of these "200" people were ever arrested. But "200" was also the number of Israeli "Art Students", and Israel obviously knew about them. So my conclusion is that these "200" Israeli "art students" when considering the field of expertise that some of them had, "explosive ordnance", were possibly the people who helped wire the WTC buildings for demolition. Although there are logical gaps in that because why would Israel "warn" about it's own operatives? Someone else might be able to answer that.
Israeli security issued urgent warning to CIA of large-scale terror attacks

"The Telegraph has learnt that two senior experts with Mossad, the Israeli military intelligence service, were sent to Washington in August to alert the CIA and FBI to the existence of a cell of as many of 200 terrorists said to be preparing a big operation."

US arrests 200 young Israelis in spying investigation

"The DEA report said most of the students questioned by American investigators acknowledged having served in units of the Israeli armed forces specialising in military intelligence, electronic signals interception or explosive ordnance."

Israel has benefited from 9/11 as now its enemy "Fanatical Muslims" are also the enemy of the US. And it's enemy neighbours, Iraq etc, are being dealt with by the US. The US benefiting from the strategic dominance of the Middle East and its oil supply etc. That’s perhaps quite a simplistic summation and who knows what the full truth is, I don't pretend to hold it for a second. I do submit though that while it is foolish to play into false anti-Semitic charges, it is also foolish to just dismiss all this information as "marginal" or “unimportant”.

Thanks Dem

Thanks for taking the time to clarify further for me why you consider this an important line of inquiry. You and Real Truther did a great job of presenting information for further investigation. And that makes this thread more of a resource for those who read it in the future, contributing to the archive at 911Blogger. We may not come to agree on this one point, but as you imply, this isn't the ultimate line of inquiry for us. I will definitely take your and Truther's recommendations and look into this further.


International Truth Movement

Question for everyone...

How do you speak about Israel's possible involvement, and not come across as "Anti-Semitic?"

It is very rare that you see discussions about Zionism where the word "Jew" isn't mentioned.

I don't know why religion has to be involved in these discussions.

There are mutiple examples of Christian Zionists as well as Jewish ones.

As a Jew, I admit that sometimes I take offense to some of the things said about Judaism. I was raised to think of Israel as the "Promised Land" for "my" people. That being said, I'm not a religious person. I don't think Moses parted the Red Sea. I don't believe in Adam & Eve, or Genesis for that matter. However, some of my family does. It hurts to think that people I love are being harshly criticized for their religious beliefs in a country that promotes Freedom of Religion.

Have you ever heard of the phrase "Double Jeopardy?" For those that think it's easy finding out that the country you were born is not what you were led to believe, AS WELL as the country of your religion, think again.

That being said, I challenge you to find more incriminating news posted about Israel than on my site.

According to a recent poll, 50% of Israel's youth disagreed with the actions of its' Government.

Maybe they will stand up against their fascist rulers.

Personally, I believe the quickest path to 9/11 Truth is through the White House. I know I have more "control" over my Government than I do Israel's.

I have no problems discussing Israel. I have problems when religion is brought up.

"We've been offered a unique opportunity and we must not let this moment pass."

— George W. Bush - State Of The Union Address - January 29th, 2002


I believe there are issues regarding 9/11 and Israel that need to be addressed. As well as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Germany, Turkey, Britain, and finally, the United States.

"We've been offered a unique opportunity and we must not let this moment pass."

— George W. Bush - State Of The Union Address - January 29th, 2002

Religion has many facets, just like Zionism.

The problem is people who are close-minded, don't think for themselves, and follow their 'leaders' like sheep.

Religion is an instrument which has been used to control the people for a long time, that is a fact.

Spirituality is what people are looking for, but they don't really see how organized religion has put itself between them and the divine being. What they get is a weak form of spirituality, what a lot of dogma, mind-control and false history.

The core problem is that people don't think for themselves, they believe whatever someone says, whatever the bible says, whatever books have been added to the bible, etc.

People are fooling themselves, and are unaware of it.

Until people see what their spiritual culture is really based upon (survival, freedom of the mind, creativity, social communion, total consciousness, etc.), they are enslaved in a make belief world.


Is an instrument which has been used to control the people for a long time, that is a fact."

It most certainly is.

Click here, and here.

"We've been offered a unique opportunity and we must not let this moment pass."

— George W. Bush - State Of The Union Address - January 29th, 2002

Every genuine person knows

Every genuine person knows being sceptical about 9/11 and Israel has nothing to do with Judaism. Judaism to me is an Abrahamic faith, so like Christianity, Islam and most of the worlds other major religions, it's positive and for the good. You get people calling themselves Jews, Christians and Muslims who are anything but, especially if they took part in or profited from mass murder.

Thanks Jon

Your point is valid and taken. I am by no means religious, but I 'still don't like when people treat those who do happen to be religious like they are fools. When my dad said something recently about how gullible some religious people are (and the ones he mentioned were, they were following some newly declared Messiah) I pointed out to him that he believes in things that may not actually have happened, like the moon landing. Not because I'm 100% convinced that it was faked, but because I now know that it's possible that it was, and that even though I always wanted to be an astronaut as a kid, I never imagined it might not be true. In a way I feel like I've been betrayed by a world that has made me believe a lot of things (I was super-patriotic as a kid, my dad worked for the USG in fact) and when I was older I was dismayed to learn that for all our good points, Americans have every bit as much to apologize for as Israelis, to use an example. MORE in fact, because our crimes have been greater and longer standing.

I thank you also for pointing out that Israeli citizens are not uniformly evil--that in fact we have more in common with them than we do with many others. We both rail against our corrupt so-called leaders. We are both manipulated by tactics of fear and can't ever be sure who our real enemies are. Those who claim to act in our best interests do nothing of the sort. One of the single most inspiring videos I have seen since I became "activated" (as in an activist, not a mole!) was one made by Israeli Anarchists Against the Wall. You can watch it here-(. the best comes at the evry end where you can see a whole bunch of awesome Israeli citizens blocking a road in protest of IDF action--these people are US in ten years maybe, if we grow the balls. Note especially how much like Nazis the cops look. Note how determined the Israelis are to shout them down and show they have no fear of their police state. These people are all heroes to me, and they are all Israeli Jews. They also hate George Bush, and distrust America. These are our brothers and sisters and for me to call to account the American media and government for its collusion with rogue Israeli elements is in my mind and in my heart a cry of solidarity with these people.

The story behind 9/11 is huge, and it is not ours to shape or to tell. It is our role, my role as I see it as a truther (and I am not ashamed to call myself that) to ensure that the fullest account is made known, and yes, I suspect that in the end there will be perps found to have come from a number of countries, not just the US and Israel.

Do I get frustrated and let myself be provoked into arguments that are not productive or helpful? Yes, I'm human, and that will happen given the strain we are all under. I am simply doing what I believe to be right and just, and no matter what rhetorical weapon I hold in one hand, the other will always be holding an olive branch.

Over and over I have to remind myself and others that this is for real, that as absurd as it all seems, we have by jumping into the fray become a part of history. While I am not concerned with making a name for myself or taking credit for any successes we might enjoy, I will be proud to have my name listed among the many others who resisted this evil, and my sincere wish is that that list of names will be so long that mine will be lost in the midst of countless compatriots of every conceivable background. What we win, whether in our lifetimes or not, will be a gift to our children's children. We will have, for a change, left the world a better place than we found it. In the end, history will be just that, and our focus, together, will be on the bright future ahead for all humanity.

And rest assured that I speak fnot from a pedestal of my own but on the shoulders of giants like MLK, Gandhi, and many others who have earned their place in my estimation.

Let's do this together, and let's do it right.

Thanks to everyone who contributes here to our common goals.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


Thank you

Good people and bad people

come in all flavors.

Bad people did 9-11. If you look at Bush and their business partners, you see a very international and ecumenical group. BushCo is a coalition of the Christian Right, Israel, Saudi Arabia & Pakistan. There is nothing religious about any of the leaders from these groups. However, they are more then happy to use religion to divide the rest of the planet, so they can continue to stuff their pockets with money while the rest of us fight with each other.

9-11: Paul Wolfowitz - "There didn't seem to be much to do about it immediately and we went on with whatever the meeting was."

Great Post

Rt, You better be careful. I spent a lot of time last night writing a comment regarding the Israel connection of billionaire Frank Lowy partner of Mr. Silverstein in the July 24, 2001 lease.
I had a lot of links where you could go to find out more but somehow it never made it through the censors at this site. You can Google Search "Frank Lowy".
This one is current and is a connection to Olmert.

thanks Tom

I'll definitely check it out. As for being careful, there's just so much we can do to be safe given what we are doing. I can only hope that if I die in mysterious circumstances (and believe me enough of my loved ones will be quite determined to assess whatever might happen, since they support very much what I do) that it will serve to fuel a stronger truth movement. Without going into too much detail for obvious reasons, life insurance, etc. will serve to fund a few surprises for anyone who thinks that killing me off will help their cause. And, from a philosophical point of view, I honestly don't fear death--it's the most natural thing that can happen to any living thing and I indeed look forward to finding out what's on the other side. Though I'm not particularly religious, I do think that it is absurd to think that when we die we just cease to exist--I believe that when we die we basically (re)discover that we are in fact, and were all along, the universe itself. So yeah, I don't really worry about stuff like that. Before 9/11 I worried about the meaning of life. I no longer do, and know that both my life and eventual death will be full of meaning. The struggle to do what is right instead of what is simply in our own self-interest is quite simply the only possible purpose of living, I've found. Anyway, however we look at things, the fact remains that I don't intend to lose this fight, whether I live to see our victory or not--that is a much more comforting position to be in than the position of those who know their little secret will soon be a big scandal. They are the ones who should "watch their backs" not us.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


Amen brother

I am an old eagle scout. I enjoyed camping and I was taught to leave our camp site in better condition than when we arrived so the next campers can enjoy it as much.

That's the way that I look at the earth. I want to leave it in better condition than when I was born for future generations to enjoy.
Since that is beyond my power, I do as little damage as possible and try to live up to my oath to do my best in whatever I do.

It's a Legitimate Question.

I listened to President Jimmy Cater defend his book at Brandeis University this morning on CSPAN.
He says that the Peace Agreements that had been signed by Israel have been violated by Israel and that it is Israel that refuses to vacate the agreed upon territory and let the Palestine alone.

I think it took a lot of guts for President Carter to stand up to Israel when it should have been George W. Bush.
President Carter should not have been put in a position where he had to get involved in the politics that should be handled by the Bush Administration.

He said that Ms. Rice has finally intervened and will hold meetings with Israel and Palistine. He says the majority of citizens of the 27 Arab nations and Israel want to live in peace.

He also suggested that Brandeis University send a group of 7 students and 3 faculty to go and find out for themselves.

President Jimmy Carter has given me hope for the future. I hope this doesn't get censored.

my censored comment from last night

..also had a connection between Mr. Lewis Eisenberg who was the Chairman of the Board of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey and multi-billionaire Mr. Frank Lowy.
Frank Lowy made his billions through real estate development deals.

Mr. Eisenberg had been appointed to the Board by Christine Todd Whitman when she was Gov of NJ in 1994 and elected Chairman in 1995.

As well as some information about the sorry condition of the towers, asbestos removal problem, increased vacancy and billion dollar PANYNJ Capital Plan announced on June 12, 2001 for a Major Overhaul for PATH's WTC Station.

Class based society

There is yet another class division that is not so obvious, between the people WHO ARE ALLOWED TO DO GOOD and those who A FORCED TO SOLELY CARE FOR DOLLARS (to feed their families)

When MONEY developed, RELIGION (charity) was born!!

Listen lucid David Graeber's thesis about this:

Re: The Israelis..

Israelis Schmisraelis!!

Ask yourself the following questions:

Why hit the pentagon?

I think, looking at the particulars, the Navy operational command central was annihilated for the main objective was to kill people who unwittingly took part in the whole 911 operation, and could not be trusted to keep their mouths shut when they found out that they had remote-controlled the events under a false pretext.

The other place where such people went to their deaths would have been inside the towers themselves... and in particular most certainly exactly where the initial explosions took place... Why take the risk of anyone having a lucky escape. I say they were in the South Tower because the North Tower was the STARTING SIGNAL!


Once the North Tower would have been hit, the whole 911 operation would irreversibly be set in motion, the signal for all participants to go to their battlestations.

The second WTC explosion HAD TO take place fairly shortly thereafter and then KILL ALL "unwitting NEW YORK conspirators" ... as well as destroy much evidence.

The third explosion inside the Pentagon killed the remaining military witnesses and destroyed evidence, of course.

Of course the whole thing could well have had israeli involvement... maybe

  • they just knew the plan,
  • or they did part of the work
  • or they provided the super-grade plutionium for the space-particle weapon that turned the towers and UA93 INTO DUST, leaving only fragments but neatly zapping the evidence.. (UA93, no bodies, no blood!)

the TRUTH about the Zionist threat???

///////////////////// - $1 DVDs shipped - email for info

funny they don't mention the nukes

or size of the military, or military expenditures. or "special relationship" with the US government.. Do you have a comment about the info linking Israel to 9/11, DHS?


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


sure, it's possible they were involved...

1) The art students
2) The dancing videographers
3) The prior warnings
4) Daniel Lewin

Who knows, not me.

///////////////////// - $1 DVDs shipped - email for info



i cant get into the site using my normal name



happens to me sometimes too... try

requesting a password reset...


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force