A Commitment To More Civil And Effective Collaboration In The 9/11 Truth Movement
A Commitment to More Civil and Effective Collaboration in the 9/11 Truth Movement
Go here to sign this statement.
Because we still lack subpoena and discovery powers, members of the 9/11 truth movement and American citizens as a whole will not be able to fully connect the "dots" of 9/11 events until key classified documents and videos are leaked or released. In the meantime, many of us will develop theories about those events and what really occurred. Given the incompleteness of the facts at hand, our theories will invariably differ. They therefore can and should be sincerely discussed and analyzed, but this debate must not obscure the reality that the investigative tasks we face still remain extremely challenging.
We believe our campaign to expose the truth of 9/11 offers the world more essential insights into current political and economic reality than any other modern movement and therefore can empower the most profound social transformation of our age. This work is far too important to debilitate with egotism, zealotry or self-inflicted wounds, and we must make every effort to sustain the unprecedented progress we have made.
Because the 9/11 truth movement presents grave moral, legal and political threats to those in power, we would be naïve to not anticipate covert governmental intervention in our activities and attempts to divide, disrupt and discredit us by promoting hateful or repellant theories and sowing internal discord. Indeed, the greatest risk these forces pose to our work is not espionage or disinformation; it is the provocation of destructive mistrust between authentic activists.
We the undersigned therefore commit ourselves to work together towards our greater goals with the least possible rancor and internal strife. We agree to reject ad hominem denunciations and attacks upon others' motives, and focus our critical attention upon the logic, factual evidence and probability supporting certain hypotheses instead. Our ultimate goal must be the full disclosure of 9/11 truth, which is disserved by factional warfare on behalf of partial points of view. We will strive to fill in the gaps of the evidentiary record, so that facts dictate our conclusions rather than conjecture or emotional charges and appeals.
Finally, since we ourselves must embody the societal changes we wish to see, we vow to continue our work with fierce devotion, but also with mutual respect, selflessness and above all, honesty.
(Note: This thread has been locked after deriding into a flame war, please take these inner feuds elsewhere.)
John Gault
Wow.... Haven't seen you 'round here in a while....
I just thought that they had found an effective medication.
You've been taking it.....Right?
___________________
Ignorance is NOT Bliss
Right. Interesting stuff.
Right. Interesting stuff. So--where are you going with this?
I think I know, but it's polite to ask.
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
How about this... Go setup a
How about this... Go setup a debate thread on a discussion forum and those that feel like arguing over this for the 100th time can come and show you how you are totally wrong. This way instead of trying to divert a thread on unity into an argument over opinions for the 1,000th time on this ridiculous theory we can have it out until it is solved and then just refer to it in the future.
People disagree on this subject, and we probably always will. If this subject is the only thing that matters to you so much so that you can't just agree to disagree and move on, then don't expect people here to have much interest in having any discourse with you.
So
Each of the TV stations had their own premade videos with the inserted plane image.... or are you saying that the cameras actually each filmed these holograms as they provided cover for missles?
___________________
Ignorance is NOT Bliss
I fully support this resolution
Avoid personal attacks as they do not help anyone's credibility.
The truth is not arrived at with straw-men or ad-hominems.
“We're an empire now, and when we act we create our own reality."
I hope someone will be monitoring this list closely.
Already people are being naughty little campers with it. The person who signed right before me is evidently named "Golds A Liar."
never properly investigated
Within that statement is a good general point about 9/11 Truth activism, a point that I think progressive media types ignore by shatting on the movement: the 9/11 issue is the gateway to a broader understanding of the political machinery that runs America, from the security state support for Al Qaeda to the machinations of the oil oligarchy and the implementation of civil rights abuses. Your statement deserves repeating:
"We believe our campaign to expose the truth of 9/11 offers the world more essential insights into current political and economic reality than any other modern movement and therefore can empower the most profound social transformation of our age."
Indeed. Many progressives have turned against 9/11 Truth, I believe, because of the rampant speculation produced by corporate media, disinformation agents, and some overzealous skeptics. This speculation should not obscure what even the progressives such as Cockburn, Chomsky, and Monbiot must realize: that 9/11 was never properly investigated. It's as simple as that.
It was brought to my attention
Last night by a person at the Barrettt lecture that there is a way to file a formal complaint against the findings of NIST..... but we need a scientific explaination of the discrepancies by a qualified engineer or possible a scholar like Steven Jones.
He's supposed to make a PDF file and send me the information with 5 qualifying directions for submittal.
Could be a direction to move....they could publish their report for all to read. I'm sure we could offer any support to aid the cause wether it be the typing of the report or the creation of graphics or fun footnotes.
We need a scientific rebuttal of the NIST report as it is.... Perhaps we could make ours 11,000 pages
Might have to use larger print and double space with much larger graphics..... But I know we can do it.
JK about the 11,000 pages..... we could easily sum it up in under 50 pages... to show people just how consice and simple that this could be explained.
___________________
Ignorance is NOT Bliss
OR
Just one willing to put it out there and sign off on or validate a well written scientific analysis.
The presenters or those who signed the complaint could remain annonymous except to those who are submitting and those recieving the complaint.
So if they are fired or harassed we will know exactly where the harassment would arise.
Solved.
We have lawyers too...... and the power of the people!!
Try again
___________________
Ignorance is NOT Bliss
Its a great idea
But - you will have to excuse me if i appear sceptical.
The fact of the matter is that this movement is infiltrated by disruptors. I'm sorry but, at this point i cannot accept anything less that 100% candor on this issue.
For years now i have seen attempts to 'strike deals' and 'mediations' and 'cease fires' and 'calls to unity' etc etc. I have repeatedly heard cautionary tales about accusing others of being disinformation agents.
so - what do we have now? Space Beams and Cartoon Planes and anti-semites speaking in our nake - appearing on major news networks - while we stand around holding our d*cks. (with all due respect to the fairer sex)
Call me jaded - but - how do you make deals with people who will not deal in good faith? How do you deal with people who are in the BUSINESS of betrayal and slander? What good will a signing statement do in stopping real infiltrators and disruptors?
Sure - there are plenty of us (99%) who are NOT infiltrators who should learn to get along better. But - it is the slim minority of disinfo people who are getting air time and press attention.
Nico was interviewed for Rolling Stone? Dr. Jim Fetzer has been on FoxNews twice? Morgan Reynolds on FoxNews? Judy Woods at the National Press Club? CNN does stories on anti-semitism in the 911 Truth movement?
I am frankly tired of the 'can't we all get along' approach in dealing with people who will not - and can not - deal with us in good faith.
I actually believe that it is time to accept a centralized platform and leadership - a board of directors with legal clout - to ensure that this movement is not usurped and stolen from under our noses.
you forgot to mention...
the self righteous glory seeking straw-man slaying folks who elect themselves arbiter of what is disinfo and who is anti-semitic.
can anyone imagine MLK saying--OK, I'm tired of our struggle for equality being infiltrated and sabotaged--we need to elect a board of directors!
Nope, listen to the anarchists on this one--no leadership is good leadership! What I've been seeing way too much of lately is a little two-step where first the mainstream media no one respects anymore tries to define the truth movement and then certain "members" of the truth movement point to that irrelevant coverage as somehow having some bearing on how we should act as truthers.
Consider this a declaration of independence. I ditched the controlled antiwar crowd precisely because of this tendency for infiltration at the "top" leading to directives handed down and groupthink taking over to stultify and stagnate real progress.
For all the good intentions that may be behind these efforts on people's part, I reject the need for formal associations or acceptance of declarations of principles. How dare any of us try to own this movement, or control it? Who appointed us keepers of the truth?
Some people are getting way to caught up in the drama surrounding their truthing activities. The 9/11 truth movement needs to fight just one thing, and that is silence. With the facts on our side, who cares what CNN tries to make people think? Who knows anyone who even reads Alternet?
It's time for people to get over themselves, indeed, for the truth movement to get over itself. And get back to work. All you need to be doing is spending some of your free time in public holding a sign, handing out DVDs or flyers, bird dogging candidates--anything. Just do it.
Sorry if I just crapped on anyone's parade. :)
____
♠
Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero
WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force
Do you remember Popular Mechanics?
"It's time for people to get over themselves, indeed, for the truth movement to get over itself. And get back to work. All you need to be doing is spending some of your free time in public holding a sign, handing out DVDs or flyers, bird dogging candidates--anything. Just do it."
Who is this comment directed at?
The truth is arrived at only by examining ideas. Part of this process is weeding out the bad ones. Some of them are intentional. If you care about 9/11 truth you should care about 9/11 disinformation. The official story is the biggest piece of disinfo out there I'm sure you would agree. To some extent saying we should ignore disinfo is like saying we should ignore the official story about 9/11 and be quiet. Others like myself prefer to present rational arguments to expose the truth..
I joined this movement after being blown away by a presentation by Steven Jones. I was not particularly impressed with Loose Change. THAT's why the truth matters. It makes a difference. The truth will change the world.
The best possible presentation of the credible evidence is the difference between someone joining the movement and someone ignoring it.
To ignore the junk is to wait for Popular Mechanics to take advantage of it.
Activism is important, but the movement is big enough for everything.
I agree with John that there are intentional disrupters who have no interest in being sane. I don't even have to mention names.
“We're an empire now, and when we act we create our own reality."
best defense is a good offense
I didn't mean to imply that we should ignore disinfo, not sure where that came across anyway. My point was that we don't need to organize to the extent that "John Albanese" is suggesting. In fact, it is my sincere belief that a lot of the öbvious" disinfo, if not all of it, is coming from real life straw men whose goal is not just to make the movement look bad, but also to get it to unite unhelpfully in opposition to stuff that needs little opposition. You mention PM. One of my family read the article and commented how they wasted time talking about stuff he'd never heard me mention, and that that helped him understand how they were trying to hide the truth. Some stuff is so absurd, like space beams and tv fakery, that we obsess over it at our own risk. By attacking those obvious straw men, certain people hope to build reputations of "knowing and doing what's right for the movement" when in fact their agendas are quite different--limited hangout, for one.
I'm not saying don't organize, I'm just saying be careful who you organize with, and what around. I made the mistake of joining scholars because I wanted to feel I belonged to some association of like minded people. I see now what a bad idea that ended up being. And for what? What good did having my name listed there ever do me?
We should not be waiting for the media to do our job for us--we know they have no interest in anything but coverup. We KNOW this. WE need to be the media--we need human billboards, human dvd factories, etc. We need people out on the streets countering the false image the MSM wants people to believe. This is not a change in course, this is what many of us have been doing since before there arose local groups around us. And there is no reason to stop, quite the opposite--we need to be even more visible on a more regular basis. People aren't blind, deaf, dumb, or stupid. They see us. They hear us, and they understand what CNN and PM are all about. We don't need more groups and resolutions, we need more truth armies of one.
____
♠
Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero
WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force
I agree with you
I almost joined scholars but I didn't. I just had this feeling something... was going to happen. I didn't expect what did happen of course.
Live and learn. I think we are all allowed to be criticized unless this takes away unnecessary energy from activism.
“We're an empire now, and when we act we create our own reality."
You can create a nonprofit
You can create a nonprofit and call it a movement, but it won't be a movement and it won't protect the movement from being infilitrated.
On the other hand forming a non-profit that seeks to protect people inside the movement from slander and disruption is worthwhile. What would be even better would be to get enough dirt on obvious infiltrators to be able to sue whatever intelligence agencies are behind them for interfering with peoples' constitutional rights to organize, assemble, speak, and so on.
Putting it another way, how could a Board of Directors stop Nico from speaking to a reporter from Rolling Stone?
You may be right...
However, I posted this because in theory, it makes sense. Whether or not people adhere to this commitment remains to be seen. And the more people that do, the easier it will be to spot those infiltrators and disruptors you spoke of.
"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."
Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton
Just out of curiosity fred...
Are you attempting to paint John as the nut that requires a psychiatrists' evaluation even though it is CLEARLY Nico you should be talking to?
If Nico has done something illegal (which he has done several times with his slanderous remarks against members of this movement) shouldn't the authorities become involved?
Why are you defending someone that posts pictures of excrement and swastikas on a church?
"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."
Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton
Ah...
I see... so then you're here to defend Nico. Either that, or you just joined the movement yesterday.
Please don't make reverse accusations. It insults my intelligence.
"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."
Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton
A "reverse accusation"
Is someone attempting to paint the innocent as the guilty.
John Albanese has threatened legal action, which is within his rights based on the slander and libel committed by Nico.
It seems to me that John is doing Nico a favor by warning him.
"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."
Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton
Um...
But he's not lying...
I feel it would be for the best if he were placed in a secret black location where interrogators could use enhanced methods to achieve greater effectiveness in getting the truth out of him.
Obviously someone believes that Albanese deserves to have his testicles nailed to a table, or that he should be waterboarded, etc... that is what interrogators are doing these days to my knowledge.
Sounds to me like someone is "advocating violence against him" on 911researchers.com.
By "retire or face the consequences", John is clearly asking Nico to refrain from his slanderous remarks against members of the 9/11 Truth community. Otherwise, he will press charges, which is within his right.
I don't see a problem with it.
Therefore, I am going to be "civil", and remove myself from this conversation.
"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."
Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton
Not only...
Did I not misquote you, but you are creating quotes out of thin air. Which post of yours says, "I pray for humane treatment of Albanese?"
John Albanese is not threatening violence. He is threatening legal action. Which again, is within his rights, and is also a nice warning to Nico.
Asking Nico to "retire" means that he is asking Nico to stop his slanderous remarks, lies about members of this movement, etc... That is, after all, all he does.
Fred... you are clearly here to "start trouble." I am going to be civil, and remove myself from this conversation. Good day.
"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."
Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton
When I saw that part of
When I saw that part of Albanese's blog I knew someone would pick up on it. The difference being that the "consequences" he referred to in his blog were legal consequences, not a threat of any sort of physical violence. Unlike Nico who has made a habit of not only inventing and promoting lies about people, but publishing their real names, the addresses and phone numbers where they work, the addresses where they live and their photos along side of nazi symbolism and outright disinformation.
The fact that you are here defending the likes of Nico Haupt speaks volumes about either your lack of knowledge, or your outright support for the #1 provacateur attacking this movement for years.
I am threatening Nico with legal actions
and those actions are indeed underway - will be made public very soon.
cry us a river
As for YOUR post - it is the opinion of my attorney that you are not only advocating violence against me - you are in fact inciting it. This has been reported to law enforcement, and we are currently seeking a subpoena to determine the origins and identity of these threats.
go spin that on 911Researchers.com
sure
are you done here?
Its not costing me a dime
good luck
Oh?
"You have no attorney "advising" you as you claim (if they were they would be disbarred)."
that's an interesting quote. and how would you know if i have a lawyer or not? and exactly WHY would my attorney be disbarred? are you suggesting that you work for the government?
I think John Gault is Right. Albanese is a muffinhead.
What's the name of your lawyer, Alabanese?
sure
are you done yet?
Fruitcake runs out of nuts... Albanese speechless
eom
The consequences
Fred - are you SUGGESTING that posting swastikas and feces in a church should NOT be confronted with legal consequences?
Is this really the side of the fence you care to be on?
It happened. I have been now contacted by someone who has video of the incident. It is being provided to the police.
Are you REALLY that stupid? You are defending Swastikas?
and NOW it has been revealed that multiple members of the new york community are receiving threatening letters in the mail - including SATANIC CULT materials. do you have ANY idea how bad this is?
do you REALLY think it is wrong for us to stand up to this? there are women and children who come to that church Fred. Are you REALLY that much of a coward that the films we show in St Marks is such a threat that you must resort to swastikas and satanic violence? Lats Sunday we showed "Who Killed The Electric Car." Are you THAT much of a coward that you must terrorize a community because we show left-leaning films?
this is against the law. we do not know (yet) if this is harassment by the government - or not. but - either way it is against the law.
do you THINK that mailing threats and posting swastikas in churches is NOT going to catch the eye of the media and local papers and the ACLU and the local police? do you think that there is NO accountability on this? do you think there will EVER be an effective defense of this behavior should this ever be exposed?
and YOU post that i am a potential terrorist and may be planning (in your opinion) to kill people? you think THAT is not going to catch the eye of authorities? do you think the FBI counter terrorism task force should squander its resources forced to invetigate these claims?
You seem to be a dangerous nutcase
From what I understand, you verbally attack researchers and make threats. My impression of you is simple: FRUITCAKE WACKO NUTJOB.
Tell it to the judge
(eom)
Explain it to the judge
(eom)
Please keep your vitriol,
Please keep your vitriol, rabble-rousing, and ominous tone off this site. You should be banned if you don't stop. You are clearly trying to frighten off newcomers.
By your fruits we shall know ye.
Tell it to the judge
(eom)
you can have
the good Howdy Doodey cups
Can I have...
The McDonald's Star Wars glasses?
"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."
Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton
No
those are in my Swiss Safety Deposit Box.
At least you have some sense of humor
Is playtime over now? Nobody threatened you fruitcake. Time to take your medication.
Sure
are you done yet?