Beginning of the Week Open Thread

It has been quite a busy few days in the 9/11 community. Here is a quick roundup and an open thread to help start off the new week.

  • BBC's 'The Conspiracy Files' to cover 9/11 conspiracies next Sunday (link)
  • NIST Engineer claims to not be aware of witnesses to molten metal at ground zero, and unaware of NASA thermal imaging (link)
  • London Evening Standard and Daily Mail Papers publish lengthy article on 9/11 skeptics and Loose Change (link)
  • Rosie O'Donnell Imitates John Conner and Says "9/11 Was an Inside Job" on 'The View' (link)
  • Star from Law and Order Michael Moriarty says 9/11 is an "inside job" on Jack Blood's radio show (link)
  • Democracy NOW! and Counterpunch cover the 'Cheering Movers and Art Student Spies' (link)
  • CW11 New York airs a feature story on 9/11 skeptics (link)

Of course there is even more than that which has happened in the last week, but it is quite apparent that this week has been a major week as for alternative 9/11 news coverage. Be sure to take a few minutes and send in feedback for each of these items!

Open thread, have at it!

Afghan commander tells Blitzer: OBL intelligence "cold"

EIKENBERRY: The intelligence has gone cold on Osama bin Laden. We continue the search for bin Laden, obviously. The more important question, though, with the war against international terror is not about one individual.

Global terrorism is a phenomenon which has many leadership nodes. It has financing nodes. It has training facilities. And it also generates recruits through a very nihilist kind of ideology. So this is a global campaign.

Show "2-D Animation Proves CNN Video Fake!" by CB_Brooklyn
Show "Yep, the video is 2D" by Killtown

More dkos waking up

Yes, the "sphere" of the

Yes, the "sphere" of the 9/11 truth movement has just bifurcated. It would be nice to see this continue maybe with another Charlie Sheen type coming out on it..

I can't wait for the release of Loose Change Final Cut!

911 In Plane Site also has a sequal coming out within the next couple months, which should also be good.

We may very well be looking at the coveted "critical mass" we've been after.

Let's hope so.

In Plane Site

promoted crazy "pod" theories. I can't say I'm looking forward to a sequel.

Loose Change still has a chance to clean itself up. This is the basket into which we must put our eggs, I think.

911 In Plane Site inspired

911 In Plane Site inspired Dylan to create Loose Change in the first place. It's been seen by 50 million people, and has sold up to 250,000 copies. And if you believe that the twin towers came down via CD, then by extension you believe in either a swapped drone, or a remote takover of flight 175. However, any indication that the plane which impacted the south tower and produced that truly garGANTUAN fireball was NOT in fact flight 175 bumps up the credibility factor regarding these anomalies by many orders of magnitude. I am surprised more truthers cannot follow the line of reasoning through suggesting rather emphatically, of not incontrovertibly, that the south tower plane was not in fact flight 175, but instead a swapped drone, almost certainly, a reconfigured military tanker variant of the Boeing 767 commercial airliner.

Show " asks:" by DHS

Agree: South Tower plane not flown by hijacker

Thank you Robert Rice. My thoughts on the large twin engine jet that struck the South Tower are as follows:

1) The twin towers and WTC 7 were wired for controlled demolition, no question.
2) The 9/11 false flag psyop had been planned for a minimum of several months as an all or nothing high risk operation. It HAD to work to launch the New American Century. Failure could mean a reversal of the neocon coup de etat and executions of the 9/11 planners for murder and treason.
3) Can anyone imagine that the key part of the 9/11 spectacle - the highly theatrical diversionary impact of the planes into the towers - would be trusted to Arab flight school dropouts?!?! Nonsense. The 9/11 project would not have been green lighted unless it was 100% GUARANTEED that the planes would hit the towers. Military pilots could have done it in theory, but even so, who could trust guys ill enough (terminal cancer?) or emotionally disturbed enough to volunteer for a suicide mission. QED. The planes that hit the twin towers were remotely guided, no question.

Ok, I am agnostic as to whether the south tower plane was the UA 175 specific tail numbered 767 claimed by the official version. Maybe it was. Or maybe it was a different purpose built 767 modified for the 9/11 project. The photographic analyses of the south tower plane are inconclusive. I would prefer not to talk about the south tower plane. I would rather vigourously question certain persons of interest in the 9/11 events and let them tell us about what planes they used.

However, the people who think they see anomalies in the photos of the south tower plane might be right. I would not lump them in the same bin as the WTC "no planers".

Thank you Alek. If the

Thank you Alek.

If the plane was not the originating flight 175, then all I'm saying is that it's worth examining, and in the case of the south tower strike, it was well recorded, from a whole multitude of cameras and angles, albeit the photographic and videographic captures of it are not crystal clear. Nevertheless, the entire comparative visual frame of reference, indeed supports the notion that the plane was not in fact flight 175. All I've done is to attempt to descern what type of plane it in fact was, and lo and behold, the military has a carbon copy of the Boeing 767 recongifured as a cargo tanker plane, just as that Fox News Employee eyewitness testifies to having seen fly by, and then when we consider the purpose of this pyrotechnic monster plane-as-missile, and the fireball created (for maximal shock and awe viewing horror of a global audiance), that also supports the tanker hypothesis, further corroborated by the German Engineers fireball and smoke cloud magnitude analysis, when they were not even aware of the tanker hypothesis. With all of that in mind, then why oh why are the "anomalies" captured from a variety of angles and cameras dismissed as lunacy? That's what I'd like to know. What, because the right side anomalous "bulge" is referred to as a "pod"? Because the "peak oilers" didn't like it and initiated a vigorous campaign to discredit the observations? What's absurd are investigative "truthers" dismissal of this evidence as being in the purview of the "no planers" and the like. The evidence is no less valid regardless of whatever amount of ridicule is directed at it.

While I agree with Mr.

While I agree with Mr. Albanese, I'm curious to know why you think switching the planes would be a necessary step in such an operation? It seems to me like an unnecessary complication in an already complicated scenario (that is, I think Loose Change tries to tie up too many threads and comes across as exceedingly complex).

Consider the complexity of what you are proposing (please forgive me if I sound like Matt Taibbi -- I still believe 9/11 was an inside job!). You're saying some faction of the security state hijacked 4 planes, switched them, killed the passengers, faked a bunch of phone calls, then remote controlled a dummy cargo plane into the WTC. That's at least part of what the pod scenario suggests.

My own reason for dismissing pod theories, in addition to what I said above, is that at best the evidence is ambiguous. You can't tell me some blurry video images of a plane several hundred feet away from the camera constitute definitive evidence. Also, why would the perps risk exposing themselves by flying a remote controlled drone into NYC, one of the media capitals of the world? And what if some overzealous fighter pilot had managed to put a missile into the plane, and then it was discovered to be a drone?

I'm not saying your scenario is impossible. I just think it is unlikely.

Plane Switches, Drones... Don't be so silly ;)

I would like to start by stating that I do NOT believe the "pod" is anything other than the wing fairing (and yes I have looked at it in depth), the entry flashes are undeniable.

POD Fully Debunked at :

Back to the "plane switches" and why...

Firstly it's not exotic, the very idea of using a plane switch with an identical drone was proposed in Operation Northwoods.

Original Document :


8 - a. An aircraft at Eglin AFB would be painted and numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil registered aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary organization in the Miami area. At a designated time the duplicate would be substituted for the actual civil aircraft and would be loaded with the selected passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases. The actual registered aircraft would be converted to a drone.

b. Take off times of the drone aircraft and the actual aircraft will be scheduled to allow a rendezvous south of Florida. From the rendezvous point the passenger-carrying aircraft will descend to minimum altitude and go directly into an auxiliary field at Eglin AFB where arrangements will have been made to evacuate the passengers and return the aircraft to its original status. The drone aircraft meanwhile will continue to fly the filed flight plan. When over Cuba the drone will being transmitting on the international distress frequency a "MAY DAY" message stating he is under attack by Cuban MIG aircraft. The transmission will be interrupted by destruction of the aircraft which will be triggered by radio signal. This will allow ICAO radio

The above at least indicates that plane switches and drones have been considered, and this was back in 62. The advancement in technologies has been amazing, so I hope no-one questions the "do-ability".

Why they could not rely on "human" pilots.

- The planes had to hit their targets accurately at the designated locations.

- They could not take the chance that the "hijackers" would have a change of heart or the passengers rebelled forcing the planes to miss their targets, leaving damning evidence in the WTC towers to be later found.

All flightpaths facilitated "plane switches" including, transponder anomalies. They must of known that these planes were not to be intercepted on their way to the designated target.

There's loads more research on this, including passenger list oddities etc, but one last point.

Nila Sagadevan, an aeronautical engineer and a pilot recently received a letter from a senior 757 captain currently flying with one of the airlines involved in 9/11. It contains the following statement:

Regarding your comments on flight simulators, several of my colleagues and I have tried to simulate the "hijacker's" final approach maneuvers into the towers on our company 767 simulator. We tried repeated tight, steeply banked 180 turns at 500 mph followed by a fast rollout and lineup with a tall building. More than two-thirds of those who attempted the maneuver failed to make a "hit". How these rookies who couldn't fly a trainer pulled this off is beyond comprehension.

Source :

Just a few of my thoughts on this...

Best wishes

I encourage anyone who may

I encourage anyone who may be interested in evidence of a swapped drone, to review my presentation on it here

And once again I would say that the peak oilers have not debunked the "pod" observations, which are not merely one or two observations, but a multiple perspective (numberous photos) comparative frame of reference, showing it only on the right side, and yes, the flash is also undeniable, as is the proportional analysis. Furthermore, the long approach videos reveal the plane travelling at over 550MPH at about 1000 feet altitude while performing rapid maneuvering on final approach to target including a final high-G turn into the building.

It's important first hand, recorded in real time physical evidence. There is no need to scoff at it.

In fact, I believe that the only reason it is so violently opposed is precisely because it is to "in plain sight".

You see, if the plane which impacted the south tower was not, and can be proven not to have been, flight 175, then down goes the "plane hit, the towers fell" slight of hand, false causal connection.

As previous posters have indicated, you can hardly argue for CD of the twin towers, without considering the true nature and purpose of the south tower plane. It's part of the puzzle, plain and simple. It warrents further consideration.

great post man, you beat me

great post man, you beat me to it and did a better job than i would have.

what people assume to be true

Why do some people always say that if the planes that hit the towers weren't the advertised flights, that the passengers on the actual flights must have been killed? Who says they aren't just a bunch of unscrupulous people who decided to go along with a scheme to fake their deaths? We routinely see examples of large groups of people entering into a criminal enterprise together--just look at Wall Street in the heyday of the 90's bubble of fraud and corruption. No one knew eh? Otherwise they would have blown the whistle right? Just like with Enron, huh?

We are no longer capable of the kind of naïveté that made us accept the official 9/11 BS so easily at first. Go ahead and accuse me of offending the victims' families. Guess what? The REAL victims are those whose family members ACTUALLY died in the towers. Denying them justice because of a fear of offending the family members of a bunch of people on a list meaning little and proving nothing is the real travesty here.

"Faking your death" is the new "incorporating in the bahamas"--it is the democratization of the big lie. NO ONE COULD HAVE IMAGINED that a bunch of people would try to fake their deaths! NO ONE! Yes, the "failure of imagination" is really wearing thin as a result of overuse by the incompetence theorists.

Anyone seen Ken Lay around? If you do, make sure he's still dead, OK? ;)


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


There is simply no

There is simply no comparison between Enron and a scenario in which dozens of unaffiliated individuals suddenly decide to commit treason and fake their own deaths.

Also, to make your scenario work, you now need to expand the conspiracy to include another layer of conspirators: the people who would have to fake the DNA results of the bodies recovered at the WTC.

Again, not impossible, but very unlikely.

I admit I am conflicted about certain pieces of evidence, like the magic passport. That's obviously planted evidence, but to what end (to cover the fact there were no hijackers? to misidentify the hijackers?) I don't know. Perhaps I will find the drone theory more tenable when I see LC Final Cut. For now, however, I can't imagine why even a skilled, veteran group of traitors like the neocons would devise a plot so seemingly complex, when that would only increase the chance of failure.

the complexity of it

the complexity of it actually increases the chances of success. you dont think that they would put the whole operation into the hands of 19 patsies do you?

I agree...

It is seemingly complicated but this does obviously have an effect of deterring this line of investigation, as your post proves (no offense meant - I love your posts).

I'm sure the drills play a role in all of this too.

Maybe the original planes were hijack drills, with arab patsies and passengers played by agents / officials.

I'm pretty sure in my mind that these planes were not piloted by who the FBI state.

I know it seems difficult to contemplate that the passengers may not have been on these flights, but discounting this in the event of a real investigation when we should explore all possible avenues.

With regards to the Passenger Oddities

Flight 11: of the 92 people who are listed as dying on this flight, only 20 are listed in the SSDI (22%)

Of these 92 people, only three are on the 9-11 Compensation Fund list:

Judy Larocque
Laurie Neira
Candace Lee Williams


Flight 77: of the 64 people who are listed as dying on this flight, only 14 are listed in the SSDI (22%)

Of these 64 people, only five on the 9-11 Compensation Fund list:

William Caswell
Eddie Dillard
Ian Gray
John Sammartino
Leonard Taylor


Flight 175: of the 65 people who are listed as dying on this flight, only 18 are listed in the SSDI (28%)

Of these 65 people, only three are on the 9-11 Compensation Fund list:

Michael C. Tarrou
Gloria Debarrera
Timothy Ward


Flight 93: of the 45 people who are listed as dying on this flight, only 6 are listed in the SSDI (13%)

Of these 45 people, none are on the 9-11 Compensation Fund list:

No one


More info :

Best wishes

a question in good faith...

Simuvac, how much do we know about DNA tests that identified the bodies at the WTC? Remember, that the first alleged evidence of passenegr DNA was one of those recently discovered bone fragments that just happened to belong to Betty Ong, one of the only 9/11 passengers people know by name. But anyway, who conducted the tests? When? Where? How much did it cost? What procedure was used? And finally, how hard/easy would it be to fake that evidence? I would say that given the paucity of experts in that field it would be pretty easy to fool most. And WHO would want to blow the whistle even if they did notice the deception?


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


While I find this speculation interesting

we must remember that it's only speculation. Is it possible that certain individuals faked their deaths? We can't assume anything.

However this speculation might not be particularly "interesting" to the family members who we should respect first and foremost.

There are some things we can't answer. In fact we don't have to.

We need an investigation to get all of the answers. Yes it's possible that this scenario took place in theory, but so are a lot of other possibilities.

But keep in mind that the more complicated the plot, the more chances that mistakes can happen.

Like faking a plane hitting the WTC… why would anyone attempt something like that when it would be so easy to be caught doing it?

Obviously they have made mistakes and we are catching them.

We're an empire now, and when we act we create our own reality."


Like faking a plane hitting the WTC… why would anyone attempt something like that when it would be so easy to be caught doing it?

A little bit "strawman" there...

I certainly don't believe the planes were "faked" and I DO NOT agree with anyone who does.

Hope that clarifies my viewpoint.

Best wishes

I agree

Personally I do not support the no-plane theories as well.

I agree that it's a straw man, but I was merely pointing out that there is an issue of practicality. Doing something the hard way versus the easy way.

“We're an empire now, and when we act we create our own reality."

difference between fake planes and fake flights

The planes were real. What's not as definite is that those planes were the alleged flights.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


The evidence, the physical,

The evidence, the physical, first hand, recorded in real time evidence, is HIGHLY suggestive, if not emphatically conclusive, that the south tower plane was not flight 175 but a reconfigured military variant of the Boeing 767 commercial airliner.

Mineta Testimony Confirmed: Plane was about 50 miles out

I have looked at the "plane switching" evidence but I remain skeptical of reaching final conclusions. Is it possible that they flew completely in the plane observed? In other words did they switch the planes before take-off?

Doing this would enable them to install remote control technology quite easily.

Do you have an explanation for the NTSB reports released in August 2006?

All four planes were tracked by the FAA and other radars (plural) as you know.

"In late 2001 and early 2002, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) filed reports detailing information of the four commandeered flights, based on a combination of air traffic control recordings and, in the case of United Flight 93, the plane's flight data recorder. However, these reports remained hidden from public view for years.

The veil was lifted from the reports on August 11, 2006 when they were published by the National Security Archive on the George Washington University website,"

For any plane switching to take place, it would have to be done carefully to avoid obvious detection considering that the planes were tracked (more or less) continuously all the way to their final destinations. Even if the transponders were off, they can still be tracked.

For example, did you know that when Mineta spoke about "the orders still standing" his statement is independently verified? I did some research and found this out:

(9:26 a.m.): Cheney Given Updates on Unidentified Flight 77 Heading toward Washington; Says ‘Orders Still Stand’

“Mineta says that, while a suspicious plane is heading toward Washington, an unidentified young man comes in and says to Cheney, “The plane is 50 miles out.” Mineta confers with Acting FAA Deputy Administrator Monte Belger, who is at the FAA’s Washington headquarters. Belger says to him, “We’re watching this target on the radar, but the transponder’s been turned off. So we have no identification.” According to Mineta, the young man continues updating the vice president, saying, “The plane is 30 miles out,” and when he gets down to “The plane is 10 miles out,” asks, “Do the orders still stand?”

9:29 a.m.: Autopilot on Flight 77 Disengaged

“Flight 77’s autopilot is disengaged. The plane is flying at 7,000 feet and is about 38 miles west of the Pentagon. [9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004, pp. 9] Information from the plane’s recovered flight data recorder (see September 13-14, 2001) later will indicate the pilot had entered autopilot instructions for a course to Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport (which is nearby the Pentagon). [9/11 Commission, 1/27/2004]”

9:36 a.m.: Report of Airliner Approaching White House Sets off ‘Frenzy’ at NEADS

“Colin Scoggins at Boston flight control calls NEADS to report a low-flying airliner he has spotted six miles southeast of the White House. He can offer no details regarding its identity. The plane is reportedly Flight 77, but as it has its transponder turned off, no one realizes this at the time.”

9.36 a.m.: Military Cargo Plane Asked to Identify Flight 77 “Reagan Airport flight control instructs a military C-130 (Golfer 06) that has just departed Andrews Air Force Base to intercept Flight 77 and identify it… When air traffic control asked me if we had him [Flight 77] in sight, I told him that was an understatement—by then, he had pretty much filled our windscreen.

That’s pretty amazing that Norman Mineta would be right about flight 77 considering he was just reporting what he heard. It's also interesting considering the fact his testimony was edited out of the 9/11 commission website. He was just listening to a conversation after all.

I'm not saying it's impossible to switch planes. Just thinking out loud.

“We're an empire now, and when we act we create our own reality."

When Nico Haupt would push

When Nico Haupt would push his no-plane theories on this board people would ask him one very basic question, over and over again. Now I'll ask the same question of you:

Even if it's true that 246 people faked their own deaths, people like Albert Dominguez, 66, a father of four and a baggage handler for Qantas Airways in Sydney who was traveling on holiday at the time of his death, why would you want to push the idea without very solid evidence when it is so inflammatory?

Also there is a very big difference between the kind of corruption that took place on Wallstreet to the kind of conspiracy you're describing. The Wall Street corruption required little except the ability to look the other way and accept having your pockets stuffed with cash, whereas I should thik faking one's own death requires a number of substantial sacrifices.

Lets not forget

the thousands of witnesses who saw planes and the plane wreckage that was found in the streets of Manhattan

It appears that one of the strategies of the no-planers is to accuse all witnesses of being liars - or - claiming there are no witnesses.

But - similar to the nexus of researchers promoted by Fetzer, Reynolds, Woods, Haupt, Killtown,- evidence is secondary to their overarching agenda, which is to destroy this movement.

Disinformation 101: Deliberate Lying

Here's a real Gem:

“So, I decided to contacted Steve Chastain (by phone and email), who is the author of the book “Build an Oil Fired Tilting Furnace” and asked him to verify if those 2 pictures were of aluminum, as Judy Wood claimed. He responded and said, that the photos were NOT aluminum, but were photographs of iron, and were misplaced by the webmaster. As a matter of fact, they are not even in the textbook named “Build an Oil Fired Tilting Furnace” as Judy implies. They are actually from a book named “Iron Melting Cupola Furnaces for the Small Foundry”.

Naturally, I passed this information on to Judy Wood, Steve Jones and Jim Fetzer (by email and posted the information on my public discussion boards). Jim Fetzer responded back by emailing Judy (but forwarded the email to me and Steve Jones as well) and said:


Steve is right. This whole matter has been a fiasco. I would appreciate it if (a) you would apologize to Steve and (b) remove those posts from

Thank you. Jim

Just a few months later, in December, Judy published a new paper named “The

Scientific Method Applied to the Thermite Hypothesis” and decided to use the SAME 2 EXACT pictures. Here is how she described them this time around….

Judy wrote, “The two photographs below show glowing metal pouring from a furnace. We cannot tell what kinds of metals these are without additional information.”

Despite knowing this information, Jim Fetzer recently re-posted the Judy Wood papers n his new website . If you were the webmaster of one of the most opular 9/11 sites in the WORLD, would you post papers that contained false/misleading  information?"

read it here:

In fact, that essay by Wood is probably the worst pieces of disinformation ever created in my opinion because it is so full of deliberate distortions and manipulative quarter-truths.  I don't know how the heck they thought they could get away with this garbage.  And it's posted in "Founder's Corner!"   

“We're an empire now, and when we act we create our own reality."

I agree

and its time to stop speculating about plane switches and other exotic theories. Its time to focus on activism itself. All these people who speak with such authority claiming "we know Flight 93 didn't hit the tower" - or other such theories - are simply stating OPINIONS. here is no such definitive conclusion in this movement endorsed by any of the most credible researchers in this movement.

its fun to speculate. and i suppose an open thread such as this is an open invitation to do so. but - pet theories have nearly put the last nail in the coffin of this movement.

I think we can all agree

that Flight 93 didn't hit the tower.

I'm just ribbing you, John.

it was a trick question

we all know flight 77 hit the south tower


What a sneaky fellow you are. Way to keep us on our toes!

Presidential Poll

Pick one from each party!

on right..... open the poll

You may be surprised!
Ignorance is NOT Bliss


They said people were caught spamming this poll so they just modified the results to meet their desired conclusion.

The New week voting has begun today and Ron Paul is running away with the Republican vote.

It's a new week so if you voted yesterday you can once again vote today...... but please.... no spamming =)
Ignorance is NOT Bliss


Source: someone behind a proxy at a large aircraft manufacturer
Spam votes: more than 400 votes for Ron Paul

Source: Charter cable Internet connection in St Louis
Spam votes: more than 200 votes for Ron Paul

Source: another user of a proxy at a large manufacturer of aircrafts
Spam votes: more than 200 votes for Ron Paul

Source: someone at the University of South Carolina
Spam votes: 85 votes for Ron Paul
(large manufacturer of aircrafts?)


Is Ron Paul tied into the Aircraft industry.... or are they just trying to make it look that way?
Ignorance is NOT Bliss

i dont know, i just thought

i dont know, i just thought it was kind of strange.

It has been a good week

Are we starting to make major progress here? Who wants to guess when this stuff will finally be "mainstream" news. It's a hard thing to measure I suppose. 2007 is our year.

“We're an empire now, and when we act we create our own reality."

Maybe we don't need to worry

Maybe we don't need to worry about what's "mainstream" as "old media" gives way to the "new media". But if they don't hurry up and get their shit together and start covering this in much more detail, then the weight of history is going to be as hard on the MSM as it will be on the Bush Administration.

Let us not forget that those

Let us not forget that those two skyscrapers will remain forever conspicuously absent the New York City skyline, and, given the way and the manner in which they "self destructed", their mere absence is really the number ONE smoking gun of 9/11. The record of how they came down, that's preserved eternally and in perpetuity. In the not too distant future, grade ten physics students shall prove in no uncertain terms and well behond ANY reasonable doubt whatsoever, that the official story about 9/11 is absolutely false, and they will do so without being sent to the Principals office, or forced into psychiatric counselling.

Good point

I completely agree. We don’t need MSM validation. Just because they don’t report it doesn’t mean it isn’t true or worthwhile. Look at the garbage they like to focus on—I can’t stand it.

“We're an empire now, and when we act we create our own reality."

MSM validation

I beg to differ. There is a block of the population that doubt anything that isn't reported on the "National News." And by extention they will buy whatever comes out of the mouths of their favorite talking head on said National News. Sadly the Truth needs the MSM.

It's an interesting dilemma:

It's an interesting dilemma: Do we need mainstream media affirmation? I would say we do, and we won't get it, unless the neocons push their fascistic lunacy to the point it breaks what's left of civil society apart.

The fragmentation of media makes it possible for a small portion of the population (say, Fox News viewers) to continue believing things that are patent falsehoods. This means msm can continue to exert authority even as its audience dwindles. Fascists don't need to convince everyone. Hitler had only about 40% support AFTER the Reichstag fire.

I don't think msm will face a reckoning until some kind of civil or environmental catastrophe forces people to confront msm lies. Some would say that catastrophe has already arrived. Maybe.

An Unmentioned Scenario regarding Democracy Now

After reading over the posts in regards to the recent Democracy Now piece, I saw that there was one possible reason behind the stories exposure missing from the discussion. Since both Amy Goodman and Cockburn have proven themselves to be compromised and in Amy Goodman's case, Ford Foundation Funded, there is obviously a reason to question these reporters motives.
Amy's pieces regarding 9/11 truth have been minimal, and backhanded. We have seen Amy host guests who have presented their evidence in a scripted form quite similar to other discredited hit piece misdirection based radio shows. (like her Popular Mechanics vs. Loose Change guys).
Cockburn's typical hit-piece articles have repeated the same talking points all of the other misdirecting hit pieces have.
Amy and Cockburn have proven themselves complicit in the cover up.
We must then consider if these two are indeed complicit in the misdirection what motive the reportres have in bringing out this evidence.
One possible reason for them to push this story is that if the focus of what is understood by the left as 9/11 Truth presents simply Israeli forknowledge and/or involvement, 9/11 Truth can easily be widely attacked especially among the left as an ANTI-SEMITIC group.
If the conclusion of much of the left's perspective on 9/11 truth being it's Israel connections, the movement is hurt because of the limits to such a discussion.
It becomes quite easy for some to simply characterize 9/11 Truth as being a group who most commonly proclaims...'the JEW's did it' This is unfortunate cause this is NOT the perspective of the general movement. The primary base of the 9/11 truth movement would most likely agree that Israel itself did not have the primary roles of creating the attacks composing the contracts, and much of the execution of the attacks.
Even though this report's content is well documented, we have to question and understand why these discredited controlled leftists have begun spreading it. Misdirection may be key here.
It is has become a wide spread view to associate 9/11 truth with the stereotypical claim of Anti-Semites saying, ' jew's did it.' Many of you might not have seen in the "BORAT" movie when the main character Borat remarks something along the lines of 'like the JEW...when he did 9/11," or the similar imagery coming from the South Park hit piece.
As many have stated it is likely that defense contracts spanned a wide range of intelligence agencies for sources, however it's the ones who could sign these contracts who are most vital to expose. Spreading warnings has generally proven itself to be a red herring. Warnings can unfortunately be used to re-enforce the mainstream proposed 9/11 hijacker based myth.
Thus there are a multitude of reasons to suspect this Democracy Now report as misdirection. Whether it is based in fact or not, it pushes the view of the events of 9/11 in the direction of the ridiculous discredited myth. The movement must consider this misdirection as a possible motive to dicredit us.

Show "we've been conditioned to believe this nonsense..." by wolfowitz in sh...

Mossad/Pakistan -- not a

Mossad/Pakistan -- not a contest. They both have their places--they are not mutually exclusive.

As for disinfo: sometimes weak evidence is JUST weak evidence. As long as it is not being pushed TO THE EXCLUSION of other evidence, it can be that common animal a "difference of opinion".

I say this as a supporter of BOTH the Mossad and Pakistan connections.

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

Pakistan Connection CANNOT be dismissed SIMPLY as "co-intelpro"

-Dan Rather Reported Bin Laden in a Pakistani Military Hospital in Afghanistan on SEPT 10th 2001!
-ISI is a widely acknowledged go between of the CIA and the ISI
-Connections of the ISI and Al Quaeda linked groups

And I want to confirm I am saying that Bin Laden being in the Military hospital is proof he is NOT GUILTY and proof of the ISI being key handlers of the Patsies.

so because "dan 'msm' rather not tell the truth"..

reported on it, it's good info. my point is 'pft' relies only on our trusty msm for its sources, and we all know how reliable that can be. i don't dismiss the patsystan connection as irrelevant, just a cul-de-sac of sorts.

not true

there is an overwhelming amount of research illustrating the roots of Pakistan - and the creation of the ISI - the drug trade - the creation of the Taliban - and the connection between Osama Bin Laden himself and US intelligence efforts stemming from our interests in Afghanistan for decades.

For you to simply dismiss this body of knowledge - or attempt to downplay it as simply "a patsy" arrangement is, quite frankly, laughable.

THere is a very CLEAR connection between Pakistan and all the key players involved (or alleged to be involved) in 9/11. How all of this fits together is anyone's guess - but your 'patsy' theory is simply one of the least credible for the following reasons:

Pakistan has NOT been held accountable or even blamed by this administration. duh

Pakistan is a country with a high concentration of islamic fundamentalists in its population - yet this administration does not even blink an eye over the fact that Pakistan has nukes and key members of the ISI are CLEARLY tied to key planners of the 911 attacks.

The one journalist who started investigating these shadowy figures was kidnapped and beheaded.

There has been ZERO accountability regarding Pakistan's behavior and/or ties with the Taliban.

Your THEORY that Pakistan is a 'patsy' is weak.

To Clarify

Bin Laden and the Hijackers are the Patsies of the U.S. based intelligence agencies. So it is not to say that the ISI are patsies. The U.S. used the ISI as a go-between for creating and protecting the CIA's patsies.

the mossad connection is the real deal

funny that you shy away from anything mossad and constantly YELL that patsystan is harboring terrorists and they wired money to a "highjacker," blah, blah, blah...
you know it was the "neocon crazies," as they're referred to in washington, who masterminded and executed 9/11. the scum that has been writing policy papers to benefit israel's elite, the carlyle group, and the media, otherwise known as the all-powerful military industrial complex. i used to respect your work, but i now have serious doubts about your credibility, john.

i doubt your credibility too

so? in fact - on a previous thread where i was confronting the ongoing disinformation wars, Jon Gold asked if you were threatening me because your language seemed 'questionable.' and to be honest - your posts did seem threatening.

in any case...

now here you are pushing the 'jews' did it meme.

FIrst of all - can you please stop referring to Pakistan as "Patsy-stan"?? It is not clever - and not based in reality. Pakistan has not been held accountable for 911 in any way shape or form. Claiming Pakistan is a patsy is just blatently dishonest.

Second - i have seen a concerted effort by some here to continually downplay the Pakistan research while attempting to always pin 911 on Israel and the mossad. I just don't see it. i have looked at the evidence - and while i certainly do see that the neo-conservatives share common interests with the Likud party in Israel - and Israel certainly may have had foreknowledge of the attacks - most of the attempts to link Israel directly to these attacks fall flat. I see no evidence of ANY operational support - financially - logistically - operationally - or otherwise. None. Zilch.

There are a lot of contradictory aspects to your theory as well. you have israeli agents following the hijackers around watching every move they make - yet - you then claim the hijackers were not hijackers at all but simply patsies pre-placed to create the fable.

well - then why would Israel bother following them around?

Israel is one of the nations that warned us an attack was coming. but there were many others as well. hell - EVERYONE was warning us! yet - you turn THEIR foreknowledge into complicity. why not blame Argentina? They had foreknowledge as well.

Is there some evidence other than foreknowledge that i am unaware of? anything operational? do you see any facilitation? did Israel somehow help with the logistics? did israel somehow control our air defenses? did they control the commission? is israel somehow tied to building 7? oh - and PLEASE do not tell me Silverstein is jewish.

sure - it makes sense that Israel would benefit from the USA being dragged into the Middle East for war. I can even believe that Israelis may have been dancing in the streets over the fact we were attacked. That does not make them complicit in the attacks.

Unless you have some key intelligence on this, i would really wonder why and how you can claim MOssad is responsible for 9/11? Did Israel build the training camps used to frame Al Qaeda? nope - Pakistan did. Did Israel prop up the cover-story for 911 by creating and funding the Taliban? Nope - Pakistan did.

now - given the fact that anti-semitism is becoming a HUGE liability to this movement, i would wonder why someone would attempt to always plug the 'israel angle' when there is clearly so little evidence to go on.

i see we have a comedian in the house

re: threatening posts. i mentioned that "all in due time" refers to the inevitability that both the truth and disinformation will come out, or did you fail to read my explanation....again. sheesh, the same old crap with you albanese. and this is one of the funnier posts of your 'career.'
"I see no evidence of ANY (israeli/mossad) operational support - financially - logistically - operationally - or otherwise. None. Zilch."
holy crap!!! hahahahahahahahaha
refute this. it's been published in a book and not one of these guys has threatened legal action because it's all true. still don't see any mossad involvement? read this
there's plenty more evidence, but i'll let you soak that up for now.
i, along with many others here, have to wonder who you work for.
i didn't list those names because they're jews. i listed them because they're war criminal, leo strauss-worshipping lunatics. and before you go throwing around the anti-semetic card again, i have relatives and many friends who are jewish, and they support my efforts to expose the neocon camarilla.

i didn't say you threatened me

Jon Gold said it SOUNDED like you threatened me.

anyway - regarding your links - i have of course seen all this before and i just do not know of any credible researchers who view this as credible evidence of Israeli complicity in 9/11.

this line of research has been looked at and debated ad nausea.

you did say this...

"and to be honest - your posts did seem threatening."
really? how so?

"anyway - regarding your links - i have of course seen all this before and i just do not know of any credible researchers who view this as credible evidence of Israeli complicity in 9/11."
so what do YOU make of it, self-appointed disinfo sleuth? i asked you to refute it, not give me a self-aggrandizing nonanswer.

"this line of research has been looked at and debated ad nausea."
no, it hasn't. patsystan, maybe.

i am not wasting my time with you

i have a right to my opinions and i do not view the links your provided as offering anyting credible or substantive. but - like the space beams - no planes theories - i do not intend to write long dissertations on the subject when other much more qualified than myself already have.

do your homework. simply using the phrase "patsystan" - and the frequency with which you use it - smacks of childishness.

There is no credible evidence linking Israel to 911 - other than some examples of foreknowledge and the wishful thinking of anti-semites.

John Is On Point

Mossad connections SHOULD NOT be the movements primary focus.

here's a few names for you

paul wolfowitz, scooter libby, marc rich, doug feith, jerome hauer, richard perle, and a company - trireme partners lp
start there if you want to learn who was behind it all - including the isi connection.


you named all jews. amazing.

the Patsystan frame-up

there is an overwhelming amount of research illustrating the roots of Pakistan - and the creation of the ISI - the drug trade - the creation of the Taliban - and the connection between Osama Bin Laden himself and US intelligence efforts stemming from our interests in Afghanistan for decades.

And what does any of that have to do with 9/11?

For you to simply dismiss this body of knowledge - or attempt to downplay it as simply "a patsy" arrangement is, quite frankly, laughable.

no it isn't.

THere is a very CLEAR connection between Pakistan and all the key players involved (or alleged to be involved) in 9/11.

Oh really? How is Patsystan linked to Larry Silverstein again? And how does being linked to someone ALLEGED (by who?) to be connected to 9/11 mean anything?

How all of this fits together is anyone's guess - but your 'patsy' theory is simply one of the least credible for the following reasons:

Pakistan has NOT been held accountable or even blamed by this administration. duh

Neither has Japan. Doh!

Pakistan is a country with a high concentration of islamic fundamentalists in its population -

can you quantify or source this somehow? Didn't think so!

yet this administration does not even blink an eye over the fact that Pakistan has nukes

Which they admit to having. This administration doesn't bat an eye over the fact that Israel has nukes either--interesting double standard, John!

and key members of the ISI are CLEARLY tied to key planners of the 911 attacks.

Because you know who the key planners of the attacks were? My oh my! Why have you been holding out on us?

The one journalist who started investigating these shadowy figures was kidnapped and beheaded.

Yeah, just like Nick Berg, who had Moussaui's email address in his laptop. I saw a man get his head chopped off in a grainy film online--so I KNOW it's true. Films are only faked in the movies!

There has been ZERO accountability regarding Pakistan's behavior and/or ties with the Taliban.

Maybe because Patsystan supported the Taliban at the behest of the CIA, etc.? What does this prove with regard to 9/11 anyway?

Your THEORY that Pakistan is a 'patsy' is weak.

If it were me making such a piss poor case for Israeli involvement as you make of Patsystani involvement you would be screaming: "LISTEN to HIM!!! He says THE JOOOOZ DID IT!! INCREDIBLE!! LOOK everyone! DISINFO!"

Dude, I'm really looking forward to remixing your video when it comes out, IF you really were making a video on disinfo that is, and not just talking baout doing it!


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


I agree 100% on

Not just MSM

The ISI Taliban Axis is documented in stacks of articles and document's far beyond MSM. There is a ridiculous amount of congressional testimony on the subject. Many articles have been written. How is it a cul-de-sac when the General Ahmed visit to the U.S. comes into play. It is very useful and discredits the commonly repeated myth of "Osama went renegade."

now we're getting somewhere

So we agree that there is no convincing evidence that OBL had anything to do with 9/11. So how does his being in a hospital in Pakistan imply that the ISI was managing the patsies? It proves they had bin Laden in a hospital no doubt with the CIAs knowledge--but does it prove they knew anything about the 9/11 plot? Does it prove that they really were the ones behind the wiring of money to Atta, and/or that they wired it knowingly as a setup for taking the fall for 9/11?

No, nothing necessarily indicates that anything they did was not just a setup of Pakistan itself, probably to make sure they would cooperate with the invasion (theft of) their client state Afghanistan.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


I take a darker view

On the basis of Atta's money man meeting with top U.S. officials and so much direct communication between ISI and Al Quaeda, it is highly unlikely there was no knowledge among many ISI officials of the pending attacks. Funding is a direct role in a crime. It is clearly important and direct. Even if Pakistan is just an arm for CIA, they are still producing the group blamed for world terrorism. ISI was and still continues to be paramount in creating and fueling the primary patsies of world wide false-flag terrorism. These connections are exhaustively documented in Michel Chossudovsky's "America's War on Terrorism" and some on his site

a little bird told me

that Ms. Goodman got quite the 9/11 truth earful last night...

The Eleventh Day of Every Month

methinks they doth protest too much

Constantly whining about how some people say "the jews did it" is more a sign that the people whining are actually afraid that in fact "some jews may have been big players in it" and as such attempt to extend blanket protection against those guilty parties by implying that any casting of suspicion on them, no matter how legitimate (kof dancing kof kof israelis kof) is motivated by a bigoted desire to frame every Jewish person in the world for a "crime they didn't commit", which no one is even seriously saying "they" committed.

I know plenty of Jewish folks who are truthers and are no more reluctant to consider Israeli complicity than they are to consider American complicity, which is exactly as it should be. Does anyone really think that the circumstancial evidence suggesting Israeli complicity is so devoid of validity that only a bigot would be concerned by the possibility? Anyone who at the same time thinks the case against Pakistan is even remotely damning?


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


The case against Pakistan is

The case against Pakistan is damning in so much as it points to US complicity. The evidence of Israeli foreknowlege is also damning in so much as it points to US complicity.

Zionism fits in very nicely with the very American neo-con agenda, or the PNAC. Why is that difficult for you to understand?

Clearly it's not just bigots who are concerned with Israeli forknowlege. That fact doesn't mean that you're not an anti-semite and a holocaust denier. Whether you're intending it or not, the rhetoric you spew on this board lends credence to those who would attack us on the grounds of anti-semitism and does this movement harm.


does not imply complicity - espeially when isreal is on the record as one of the countries that warned us.

complicity consists of facilitation - operational support - financial support - coverups, etc etc.

i see none of this with Israel - other than Israel's obvious philosophical bent towards neo-conservative ideals. this alone does not make them complicit in the murder of 3,000 people.

and you are...

A shill, misterguy. it's that simple. Now, since this board is apparently tolerant of unfounded accusations masquerading as opinions, I should add that your buddy below is also a disinfo agent, and that the insistence on making much more out of pretty baselss accusations about Pakistan is evidence of anti-muslim bias and is very much part of the neocon agenda.

People who read things on this site should be aware that in order to maintain a degree of civility, we don't always call out people like Misterguy and JA as often as some people do Uncle Fetzer and the one who shall remain unnamed. The very obvious bogus science claims are one biog strawman that LIHOP limited hangout promoters use to build up their credibility without actually having to contribute anything to the discussion that people don't already know.

Finally, be very wary of those who constantly cry out for unity--they are simply trying to put pressure on people not to call out the disinfo agents for what they are. Obviously unity is not what we need--it is awareness and truth that are going to blow the lid off the conspirators' containment program.

The real work is not done online, it is done in streets and neighborhoods, through contact with real people. The shills and agents focus their efforts online because it is much more effective to spread lies that way than the way we spread truth, which is one person at a time, face to face.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


Show "I am fucking tired of you" by John Albanese

your eloquence is matched only by your sincerity

Everything you accuse others of being is exactly what you are. And you can keep pulling words out of context to try to make me look bad but anyone who wants to bother to see where you pulled that quote from will see that it does not support your mischaracterization of me or my arguments.

It's funny you ask who the F am I. Maybe because you think that by using your real name you come across as more honest, instead of the reality which is that you come across as exactly what you are--a shameless self-promoter who has trouble telling the truth. Remember when you said you were leaving the site because of our critique of your Patsystan theories, then after no one protested you continued to post, but anonymously, denying all the while you were John Albanese until we caught you misspelling the same words as you did when posting under your name? And then, when you were exposed, how you claimed you were going "undercover" to prove something about how we were all just out to get your Patsystan research?

Remember that John? A lot of folks here might not, though many will. I just wanted to remind you why I don't take you any more seriously than you or I take Nico, Uncle Fetzer or Judy Jetson, all of who you love to bash and accuse of things because it earns you upvotes that you can't get when you actually try to convince anyone of anything that isn't already obvious to people.

Your act is lame, man, really lame. But hey, keep it up--you really are being very instructive with regard to disinfo and cointelpro---just not in the way you intended.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


muchos gracias, real truther

he's a lot of fun, eh?
"who the fuck are you?" hahahahaha. good stuff, john.
you don't have to mention the other's name; it's pretty clear. keep up the fine work and enjoy the snowstorm cruising your way.

anti-semitism has no place in this movement

end of story.

Any Anti Race, Creed or Religion has no place...

in 9/11 Truth !!!

The only things we should be "Anti" are...


Stereotyping is a bad thing in general, there are good and bad in most "groupings".

Please feel free to add.

Best wishes

this is childish shit. stop calling me a shill and agent

end of mesage.

i will stop, just as soon...

As you stop calling me an anti-semite in words or insinuation, and that also goes for others who seem to like throwing out that accusation, or "holocaust denier" for that matter.

Or we can continue to go by the rule that as long as one thinks someone is insincere it is ok to point it out, like we all do with noplaners, videofakerists, spacebeamers, etc.

It is childish shit indeed to accuse anyone who points out that 9/11 is not the first instance of history being distorted despite the fact that the real history is tragic enough is a bigot. Not just that but it is harmful to the movement not when people link 9/11 revisionism to holocaust revisionism, but when our own supposed allies suggest and imply that those who include the holocaust in their list of historical facts to clear up misunderstandings about are in fact closet Nazis who deny that any Jews (and others) were unjustly imprisoned, enslaved, and murdered during WW2. They clearly were, and as a matter of policy Jews were considered enemies of the state. Just because some people want that to include mass gassings and huge crematoria which cannot be shown to have actually existed does not mean that those who dispute such rather irrelevant embellishing details deny that crimes against humanity were nonetheless committed.

It would be like saying that people who deny that al Qaeda was responsible for 9/11 deny that anyone at all was killed unjustly that day. It's simply not an accurate representation of what people are saying. It is not honoring the Jewish and other victims of WW2 to make up inflated stories about the tragedy that befell them. The bottom line here is that facts are facts and there is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to ascertain the facts surrounding any historical event. Those who insist on conflating every such sincere effort with the malicious intentions of a small number of fringe haters are either totally paranoid or knowingly attempting to discourage people from learning the actual extent of Germany's war crimes (which incidentally was not that different from those of the Allies)

There are very obvious reasons for why some people would have done that, and not an insignificant amount of evidence that it was done to one degree or another. When people who go to great lengths to explain their reasoning and true feelings regarding this in order to reassure Jews who might otherwise believe our gripe to be with them for reprehensible personal reasons are dismissed as lying bigots, productive and conciliatory dialogue is impossible.

It's time for people to grow up, indeed.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


whatever. stop calling me a shill and an agent

you've been smearing me this way for as long as i've known you and your opinions do not interest me.

John continues to seem right

He is not into creating divisions as you seem to be Real Truther. The Pakistan connections are widely accepted among the majority of the movement. The ISI connects are also commonly understood to have a direct role. Unlike the Mossad.

you mean...

saying stuff like "Murderous Zionist Landlord" is not good for the movement?

No no

I never said only bigots discuss Mossad connections. However the fact that you seem to so downplay the Pakistan connection is questionable to me. I was pointing out that it is a straw man target for the press to label us as bigots. There is simply loads more documentation implying Pakistan connections that Israeli.

just go to

loads more documentation of what exactly?

The entire Patsystan connection hinges on the alleged transfer of money to Atta allegedly by Omar Sheihk. Problem is, as I get tired of having to repeat here, is that there is no evidence linking Atta to the demlition of the world trade center, or even to any alleged hijackings, other than planted evidence. Since it seems he was set up as a patsy, how exactly is this stronger evidence than 5 Mossad agents filming the burning towers and celebrating? Given that they had boxcutters in their van, that their van tested positive for rxplosives, that they blamed palestinians when they were arrested.

If it had been Patsystan whose partisans had helped lie us into the illegal criminal invasion of Iraq, maybe. But it wasn't for passing on classified info to Patsystan that Doug Feith, the main architect of the false case against Iraq, had his security clearances stripped in the 1980s. I keep hearing that because Bob Graham invited Patsystan's General Mahmood to breakfast on the morning of 9/11, the evidence is clear for Patsystani complicity, when that morning over 200 Israeli spies were having breakfast all over the US. It was also not Patsystani agents caught trying to place explosives in the Mexican parliament building a month after 9/11. And it was not a Patsystani leader whose first reaction to 9/11 was good because it would generate immediate sympathy (not for Patsystan) but for Israel. That same leader who said that also happened to speak weekly on the phone with his good friend Larry Silverstein, a lucky man to be sure, but guess what--NOT Pakistani! But oh so instrumental in PULLING IT off, wouldnya say?

For you, kdub, to say that there is loads more evidence implicating Pakistan is SO dishonest. I know you don't believe it yourself. To say that we should not dwell on all these facts and instead should try to frame YET ANOTHER MUSLIM COUNTRY for these crimes because the complicit MAINSTREAM MEDIA WILL LABEL US AS BIGOTS is just completely absurd, and you must know this.

So, kdub, if you want to have this argument, please point out the real proven links of Pakistan to the REAL events of 9/11. Not their links to the bogus cover story. Not accusations made by the lying FBI and the newspapers of their sworn enemy. Hard evidence linking them to the demolition of the world trade center or the strike on the pentagon.

In the meantime, I would appreciate it if you would cease to insinuate that my opinions are based on anti-Jewish bias--that is a hurtful smear, and anyone who insists on repeating it betrays their strong anti-arab and anti-muslim bias, and complicity in the genocidal framing and continued scapegoating of a billion and a half people for no good reason.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


"America's War On Terrorism"

I have found the best documentation of ISI's connections to US intelligence and to 9/11 from Michel Chossudovsky who's website I have referenced already. Most of the ISI's role in the attack has to do with the protecting of the patsies. The physical attack itself was coordinated and primarily carried out from US based intelligence agencies. However, going off collusion of the ISI with the supposed hijackers, it seems highly unlikely that the CIA would hide the planned attacks and use of the ISI's tools for the blame. The art student ring cannot expose the funding and false-flag nature of the official story. I agree that Pakistan didn't fly the plans and direct the attacks. But there is no more evidence that Israel did. I didn't mean that you were anti-jewish, and I don't think i said it. Frankly though both scenario's do not hit the core of the issue. Both Israel and Pakistan could not have coordinated drills and war games, or issue the "angel is next" threat. Both ISI and Mossad are connected to US. I have simply been exposed to more information about the Pakistan connections to false-flag terrorism than Mossad. Giving either ISI or Mossad primary blame for the attacks would be protecting the real engineers of the event. It is no more racist to bring up Pakistan's connections to false-flag op's as the Mossad. It wasn't the Pakistani people who were doing this, but the agencies themselves. This statement negates the racists association with Pakistan connections. Thanks for helping me clarify.








\now that i'm thinking about

\now that i'm thinking about it....

the lady said the reports about firefighters witnessing bombs

so he replied...."they THOUGHT they saw bombs, right"

and tried to play it off like that
he is not a naive talking head

what a puss...he hung up on her
and he was bragging like tonite was gonna be "total non screened calls"

maybe this was all to plant the disinfo ploy of "they only THOUGHT THEY SAW BOMBS AT WTC7"

not like that really matters----

they can never beat the video evidence anyway

art bell is a
ooohh hes' reading a letter---if "911was an inside job"
it's a goood letter---->

"they totally would get away with it-"--thats what he just said

now hes reacting to bad fast blasts that are challenging him----"oh one nite we/ll talk about it"

\but he kept trying to lay the "hopeless" vibe on it---

he was reading the letter and then reacted in a way---saying even if it was true there is nothing that could be done about it

he thinks he's "hypnotizing" people ----he thinks he's using his x-files powers and persuading the huge george noory/alex jones audience that theyre all wrong!!!


he is really a fucking dumbass


Art Bell did move out of the

Art Bell did move out of the country himself, IIRC he is in the Philippines. So it is very odd to hear him advising a caller to do the same.

Reminds me of when Tucker Carlson said on air that if you believe that 9/11 was an inside job you should leave the country. Tucker has a strange habit of sometimes telling the truth as when he let out that the GOP elite had nothing but contempt for the Christian fundamentalists. I believe that Tucker was giving us a straight up warning. "~ If you are smart enough to know we did it, you should be smart enough to realize that we intend to throw you all in the camps after the next false flag~"

art needs to quit

art needs to quit

Jim Fetzer and

I, along with several members of the Lone Lantern Society, recently attended a presentation by Jim Fetzer to the 'University of the Left' in Chicago,

As you may have guessed (and maybe Gary Franchi, founder of LLS who taped the presentation, is in the process of putting something together about this), he focused most of his presentation on the destruction of the twin towers. He never even mentioned the war games being conducted that day, among other things.

His materials were shockingly sloppy, and, of course, he was pushing the 'energy directed weapons brought down the twin towers' theory.

He mentioned Steven Jones and how 'they' (Fetzer, Wood, Reynolds) have basically completely debunked the 'thermate' hypothesis. He then mocked Jones and his new website and how they have the word "justice" in their title.

At the end, I asked Fetzer, "At what point do we stop focusing our energy on these debates about what brought down the twin towers and start focusing on how to go about getting a real re-investigation?"

He summed it all up in one sentence: "We are only here for research". This clearly demonstrated to me that he has absolutely no interest in any sort of justice or re-investigation efforts.

I shook his hand afterwards, however, and thanked him for his research efforts into 9/11. We must be civil, afterall.

However, Fetzer's website is now claiming that and are "government fronts not to be trusted". He continues to mock Steve Jones and ridicule anyone who doesn't agree with his and Wood's theories.

Any thoughts as to how and should respond?

At what point, if we already haven't reached it, do we 'boycott' Fetzer and

Do you think he is damaging to the 9/11 Truth Movement by going around and speaking to 'people on the Left' who may not yet be convinced that 9/11 was indeed an inside job?

Fetzer's Attacks of Jones are certainly baseless.

His attacks are truly suspect.

Whatever the case, our concern should be primarily on those in the movement who are MOST active. Fetzer can study whatever specifics he wants. When it comes to the movement and it's primary representation, we must push beyond our divisions and develop. If Fetzer won't develop, he leaves himself behind.

Fetzer=DISINFO=Sabotaging 9/11 truth

Fetzer, Woods, and that former Bush economist have all demonstrated characteristics as being disinformation operatives.

They obviously do not care about the credibility of this movement and now are spitting out loony theories to get us discredited.

You can always tell a disinfo operative because they spit out ad-hominem attacks against the most credible 9/11 reseachers (Steven Jones, by far one of the most legitimate researchers the 9/11 truth has been lucky to have on our side), Jim Hoffman, or Michael Ruppert, etc. These disinfo operatives also love to delve into speculative theories and totally ignore the hard evidence (war games)

911blogger should make a stand against disinfo ops who try to ruin the 9/11 truth's image

Stop giving attention to the "no plane theory" COINTELPRO disinfo agents like William Lewis, Nico Haupt, Morgan Reynolds, Scott Loughrey, Shayler, killtown, CB_Brooklyn, webfairy(Holmgren and Grable), John Kaminski, Tom Flocco, letsroll911

"911blogger should make a

"911blogger should make a stand against disinfo ops who try to ruin the 9/11 truth's image"

Agreed, but it has--repeatedly. So what are you saying?

BTW "V", this is how it's done:

My only non-Sparks post on 911Blogger. There's a certain cutting eloquence that goes with the handle, IMO. I wouldn't choose it for a regular handle, but that's me.

I'm teasing--you can of course be any kind of "V" you want--he'd approve! ;-)

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

I talked with Fetzer about a

I talked with Fetzer about a week ago, and expressed my concerns. He ranted about Jones et all and then asked me to review Woods and Reynolds work, do some research on "plasmoids" and get back to him.. I asked him what plasmoids were, he said he didn't know and that's why he wanted me to check into it.. He spoke the word as if savouring the way it sounds when you say it, "PLAS-MOIDS". I told him that I thought that Judy Woods and Morgan Reynolds were IMO "mentally ill" and that they were corrupting his mind. He said he didn't care and reminded me to get back to him on the plasmoids. :-D

I've spoken to him on many occasions, and he's indicated that he values my input, but I have to say that he's lost now to this movement. He's a "beamer" thrown in with the "no planers".

Jones unfortunately isn't taking any interviews anymore, and recently turned down BBC for that new "Conspiracy Files" 9/11 show they're doing, so they were forced to go with Fetzer.

He's done a good job mind you, but now he's into beams, and soon, plasmoids.

I'm very disappointed to

I'm very disappointed to hear that the BBC is going to feature Jim Fetzer. They certainly weren't forced to go with him, were they? After all there are a number of other left over scholars including Kevin Ryan and DRG. Jim Hoffman or Michael Berger would also have been much better choices.

This is nearly as bad as discovering they chose to go with Nico Haupt.

We know what they are trying to do.

Sadly, I have come to the same conclusion that Jim Fetzer is intentional disruption/disinformation.

He is clearly a moron if he thinks he and company have disproved the thermate evidence. They have tried desperately to discredit this evidence with clumsily constructed straw-men. They are clearly more interested in un-testable and un-provable theories than in solid evidence.

Look at my blog entries

Frank Legge Letter in the Journal of 9/11 Studies: Thermite Questions Answered

In Defense of Steven Jones: the Deliberate Effort to Discredit him and his Research

We know what they are trying to do. It’s not fooling anyone.

“We're an empire now, and when we act we create our own reality."

Fetzer will probably fade into oblivion

if he continues to spout bizarre theories, as science and history shows that correct theories and rational hypotheses are usually those that persevere.

IMHO, he risks being drown out in a sea of awakening and calls for a new investigation, and his "disinformation" will simply be ignored or sidelined.

Reality got you down? Read the La Rochelle Times:


I think we are past the point of debating the intentions and sincerity of Jim Fetzer.

The truly damning thing about the proliferation of disinformation in the 911 Truth movement is not the silly research itself - it is the fact that the handful of most egregious purveyors of faulty research all seem to be working in concert with each other - sharing resources - traveling together - sharing IP addresses - coordinating attack campaigns, etc etc.

Look at this chart:

And this is just the tip of the iceberg. (i couldn't fit more on the chart)

The 3 key indicators of disinformation are as follows:

1 - Heavy advocacy of suspect research (to the exclusion of all else) that is easily debunked and embarassing to the movement.

2 - Researchers advocating 'different' absurdist theories (such as space beams, no planes and mini nukes) all appear to be collaborating in coordinated dissemination campaigns - even in cases where their research directly contradict each other.

3 - Highly antagonistic and confrontational approach - attacks on other researchers - thinly veiled threats - disruption techniques - legal threats - poison pen letters (emails), etc etc.

I think it is time to stop debating the behavior of certain activists - and take action. Certain legal actions are indeed underway. While it is certainly not illegal to believe that little green men exist - slander, defamation of character, inciting violence and harassment ARE illegal.

This issue can no longer simply be ignored.

I appreciate your post because it continues to shine light on this issue - and this is exactly what we need to do. We need every 911 activist in the country to be educated on this subject.


Thank you again for taking the initiative on this, John.

We're gonna bust those suckers.

The Eleventh Day of Every Month

Show "nukes are not disinfo----it" by retun of the wi...

energy beam weapons and flying saucers

I used to think Alex Jones was nut and he proved me wrong.

Professor Fetzer is entitled to speak freely and we as thinking citizens of a supposed free country can listen and make up our own minds.

Personally, building 7 is all we need. Building 7 and no farther is my motto.

Due to the recent rupture in my state developed national mythology (In 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue . . .), I remain agnostic on all issues until I see the hard data.

"Denial is a savings account for despair"

Professor Fetzer

is free to speak. But - when he lies about other researchers, and uses strong arm tactics to bully his way into controlling Scholars - and when he collaborates with known disruptors who OPENLY accuse members of this community of being SPIES and AGENTS - then he deserves to be exposed.

its not just Space Beams. it is a pattern of disruption and lies.

This movement has a right to defend itself.

and lastly - IF Fetzer is working for the government as part of a cointelpro program - NO he does NOT have the right! Cointelpro is illegal.

I wish there was a way to be

I wish there was a way to be as successful as the Citizens Committee to Investigate the FBI without breaking any laws.

Accountability time. I resign my posting privileges

For being out of sync with the general consensus in the last news item I will accept that the massive voting down of my posts there constitutes a vote of "non-confidence"

I hope this will demonstrate that I take seriously the concept of being responsible to larger goal of outing the truth and accepting that the general consensus was that I was not being helpful towards achieving that end.

I wish the best to all of you in your noble efforts.

I will be writing DZ shortly to cancel my account. Good luck to all.

(Please vote this post up)

In other words, "I'm taking

In other words, "I'm taking my ball and going home!"

What a puss.


It would be easier to stay. I'll still be looking in.

Before I head out

Could this be a breakhrough Blog over at Cooks and Liars by Nicole Belle,

"This post by Austin at Jesus General falls very much in line with my question of the conservative fear of The Other from yesterday.

On January 31st, Amanda Marcotte wrote about how conservative pundit Mike Gallagher actually admitted that terrorism would be a good thing for Republican political ambitions:

Seeing Jane Fonda Saturday was enough to make me wish the unthinkable: it will take another terror attack on American soil in order to render these left-leaning crazies irrelevant again. Remember how quiet they were after 9/11? No one dared take them seriously. It was the United States against the terrorist world, just like it should be.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt said that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself - but I think he might have been wrong. I think that we should also perhaps fear, or at least be very wary of, those in our society who would use our fears for their own political agendas. Mike Gallagher's comments are not an isolated instance of political insanity - similar thoughts have been expressed to varying degrees by a number of conservatives and Republicans over the past few years. There are many who look fondly on the 9/11 attacks because they provided an excuse to push through domestic and international policies they had long advocated, but could not successfully impose on others because there wasn't enough fear in American society to help"

And more Jersey Girls at the Muckraker Report

Show "wanna see someone get downrated??" by retun of the wi...

What? `;-/

So after 23 weeks and 1 day you decide you'll "nobley withdraw"--because you're not popular? Why not just continue and not post --like you've been doing? And why make such a big deal of it? Most people would just cancel their account and leave.

But I do apprieciate your new depths of civility. Some advice--if you're really concerned about your effect on people, try not to accuse them of rubbish on the flimsiest of pretexts. Also, passive/agressive putting of the words into people's mouths--not so much a crowd pleaser.

Good luck with your future prospects.

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

Actually, the fact that not one person

stood up for Barrett disturbs me immensely and only those people regarded as co-intelpro or shills ever draw the vote down that I recieved. I am not here to engage in conflict.

Things are going well here and I am going to try to influence places such as dkos, Crooks and Liars etc which need dedicated subtle coaxing towards open discussion.

There are individuals on these boards that need support. I will be using this site as a resource to pad my idea base and keep track of breaking news. Good luck.

I thought you were leaving?

"I am not here to engage in conflict."

Could have fooled me -- with your COURAGE.COM on a previous forum.

Whatever. Good bye and good luck.

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

No, you flooded out a great

No, you flooded out a great news item with your issues with Loose Change people and Kevin Barrett:

It is called posting "off topic", that is why I voted you down (and others too probably). Plus it doesn't help that you kept doing it over and over again. If you have issues with what they said then take it up with them, or post about it in a blog entry, just don't go diverting a great thread like that into focusing on inner feuds!


My thoughts on this issue are that I feel Barrett should be more sensitive about the "Jewish" issues here. He has compared Bush to Hitler in the past. 

How does that help the 9/11 truth movement? Name calling and divisive statements are never going to help us. It only makes us look disrespectful and irrational... even if it is true or not. We have to be as respectful as possible to everyone—especially to the first responders and the families of the victims of 9/11. 

Barrett has to know that everything he says could be used by the MSM to smear the entire 9/11 truth movement. I don't know enough about the entire situation to say what is the proper thing to say in the context of what he is alleged to have said, but when it comes to talking about the holocaust: 

What the heck does it have to do with 9/11?

How can talking about the holocaust help the 9/11 truth movement in any way shape or form? It's irrelevant. I know people are entitled to saying what they want, but you have to realize that in the "sound bite" era, everything we say can be taken out of context and used against us. 

And don't leave just because people voted you down... it can happen to anyone... mostly to CB_Brooklyn and Andrew L. Watson though.

“We're an empire now, and when we act we create our own reality."

Nazi Comparison's are Valid

How about are strategic situation in baghdad being compared to stalingrad. Our troops could be encircled and have our supplies cut. Just like Hitlers hubris, our leader's hubris forces him to ignore this scenrio.

How about the bombing of the Reichstag and the introduction of Reichland security?

How bout the harsh legislation like the removal of the majority of our basic civil rights?

A logical connection can be made here.

As I said in my previous post

The issue is not whether it is true or not as I said... If you don't know anything about 9/11 truth and you hear the President described as Hitler what would your reaction be?  To laugh?

I think it would turn people off from at looking at the evidence. That's my only point.

Look at the evidence first and make up your own mind if Bush is like Hitler. Telling people the conclusion before they look at the facts is not going to help much.

Question: Do you think the MSM is going to take the time to explain all the nuances of 9/11 truth before mentioning that Barrett called Bush Hitler? See my point?

“We're an empire now, and when we act we create our own reality."

I do but....

This comparison is so widely accepted on the left and right that i find it useful. Does Barret just say Bush is Hitler? I would need to see it context to truly respond directly.

Time for politics

THE EVIDENCE IS IN and has been for a long time.

Kucinich is "listening." Bob Bowman is spreading the word. We need more politicians out there at least listening and then spreading the word:

911 TRUTH means

911 Truth is the Mother of All Issues. Make it clear. Make the pols get it and say it back. NO MORE RESEARCH IS NECESSARY. WHAT WE NEED IS POLITICAL ACTION.

Let me take this opportunity

to thank everyone here and say *yes* we are making a difference! This has been a great week for us and we are making good progress! It makes me proud to be part of this movement and know we are doing the right thing!

Off topic - for those of you who want a laugh (or want to fool any *sleeping* friends you may have, check out this article: Bush: 'Every fallen soldier's family will get a new SUV'

Reality got you down? Read the La Rochelle Times:

Dixie Chicks 5 Grammys- Time to Come Out For Truth

Alex Jones has said they know, but would leave it at that.

Do they have a blog? or contact info? It would be HUGE if they came out.

We must be the change we wish to see in the world. M Gandhi

The very beginning of the 911 coverup - live on TV on 911

This video illustrates the coverup that started the morning of 911, live on TV

The site has a good selection of 911 videos - on at a site that covers many non 911 issues.
Please check it out...


All aspects of the truth are consistent

jerome hauer explaining how the towers "collapsed"

pretty funny that he'd already have that figured out...
Jerome Hauer, who formerly worked for Kroll, got him (John O'Neill-ex-FBI) the job as chief of security at the WTC. On 9/11, O’Neill lost his life in the North Tower.

Mr. Hauer’s job as Kroll chief was also held by Michael Cherkasky, who came out of the New York County District Attorney’s Office, which also brought us Rudy Giuliani, Elliot Spitzer and Patrick Fitzgerald.

need help with a poll....

any help most appreciated on Beastie Boys - seems to be a large number of peeps holding on for dear life to the oofficial story:

thought I'd see if i can drum up some support. :-)

Movie Reccomendation

I watched a film last weekend called "Sophie Scholl" about a group of Germans in an underground organization called the "White Rose" who were attempting to stand up against the established Socialist Nazi Party during WWII.

They published a document which denounced the direction of the government and were caught as they attempted to distribute it at the Munich University.

The dialogue of this film was very powerful and telling of the possible direction that this country is heading. Very dear to the plight of this movement.

Germany appeared to be a very unhappy and fearful place during this time in history. Every move the German people made must have required serious contemplation.

I strongly reccomend watching this film if not buying this film. Probably the best film I have seen in some time. You will find inspiration.

Warning.... the film is in German and you will have to know how to read. =)
If you didn't like the Nazis before..... you will definitely won't like them after you watch this film.
Ignorance is NOT Bliss

Great movie

Very powerful.

I loved watching the nazi bureaucrat attempting to use logic and patriotism to convince Sophie that what she was doing is wrong - when all common sense dictated that what she was doing was morally right.

If you think Sophie Sholl is

If you think Sophie Sholl is a good parabel for USA 2007

try this one:

Thats even better. It shows the perfectionist, "only in germany" precursor
to the NSA and the gigantic spy apparatus in the US of Angst.

... and the normality... everyone knows that spying is everywhere.
I have met US amercians who were hesitant to talk about "dissident topics"
because they FEAR THE NSA and generla repercussions.

White Rose

I watched this movie and I was stunned by the similarity of events of the students and the truth movement. Very powerful and absolutely recommended.

Here's their first leaflet:

[Just replace "German" with "American" and feel the chills.]

"Nothing is so unworthy of a civilized nation as allowing itself to be governed without opposition by an irresponsible clique that has yielded to base instinct. It is certain that today every honest German is ashamed of his government. Who among us has any conception of the dimensions of shame that will befall us and our children when one day the veil has fallen from our eyes and the most horrible of crimes - crimes that infinitely outdistance every human measure - reach the light of day? If the German people are already so corrupted and spiritually crushed that they do not raise a hand, frivolously trusting in a questionable faith in lawful order of history; if they surrender man’s highest principle, that which raises him above all other God’s creatures, his free will; if they abandon the will to take decisive action and turn the wheel of history and thus subject it to their own rational decision; if they are so devoid of all individuality, have already gone so far along the road toward turning into a spiritless and cowardly mass - then, yes, they deserve their downfall. Goethe speaks of the Germans as a tragic people, like the Jews and the Greeks, but today it would appear rather that they are a spineless, will-less herd of hangers-on, who now - the marrow sucked out of their bones, robbed of their center of stability - are waiting to be hounded to their destruction. So it seems - but it is not so. Rather, by means of gradual, treacherous, systematic abuse, the system has put every man into a spiritual prison. Only now, finding himself lying in fetters, has he become aware of his fate. Only a few recognized the threat of ruin, and the reward for their heroic warning was death. We will have more to say about the fate of these persons. If everyone waits until the other man makes a start, the messengers of avenging Nemesis will come steadily closer; then even the last victim will have been cast senselessly into the maw of the insatiable demon. Therefore every individual, conscious of his responsibility as a member of Christian and Western civilization, must defend himself as best he can at this late hour, he must work against the scourges of mankind, against fascism and any similar system of totalitarianism. Offer passive resistance - resistance - wherever you may be, forestall the spread of this atheistic war machine before it is too late, before the last cities, like Cologne, have been reduced to rubble, and before the nation’s last young man has given his blood on some battlefield for the hubris of a sub-human. Do not forget that every people deserves the regime it is willing to endure! "

First time I read that I was utterly stunned, I guess you will be, too. After all these years, this testimony from a fascist era long past reaches us as probably the most striking warning human history could possibly offer, being almost a perfect reflection of today's reality. Let everyone see, so that they might heed it.

Show "In this forum she would be" by u2r2h

Biggest Disappointment of the Week

The scheduled appearance of Daniel Hopsicker at VoxPop in Brooklyn on Friday was a complete and utter bust. Hopsicker was a no-show...and the kicker: even the supporting act failed to appear. The management completely dropped the ball and clearly had not kept in contact with the talent, and waited until everyone had paid the (very high) admission before telling anyone.
Super weak.

Quotable quote

David Childs ( a prominent New York architect who is working on the redevelopment of ground zero) describes a pre collapse exchange with a young colleague;

"Well, I was shocked when they fell down, quite frankly. I was standing at the window when I saw this young man who works with me with this... this look of horror on his face, a very young man, and he said, "Will they fall down?" I said, "Absolutely not."


Original link from May 2002.

Show "u2r2h toasted cars theory" by u2r2h

what should we make of someone

who insists on inserting already debunked science into our forums here?

why would you do this? This nonsense has already been debunked. Have you watched the interview Greg Jenkins did with Judy Woods? She herself is completely unable to defend her own theories.

The points you raise have been examined and debunked - yet you persist in showing up here and inserting them into thse conversations.

People have tried to reason with you - and have tried to explain to you that we need to forward the LEAST SPECULATE evidence - sticking with credible evidence that has been PROVEN.

yet - knowing what you know about the divisive nature of this subject - you continue to spam us with energy beams>?

what should we make of that u2r2h? is this simply childish stubborn resolve at the EXPENSE of this movement? are you THAT self centered that you are unable to accept the overwhelming sentiment of this community?

Explain yourself.

Show "I just realised.... All" by u2r2h

no, it's 100% true that the

no, it's 100% true that the buildings could not have come down the way they did as a result of fire up at the higher floors, and it is also true that explosives alone, of whatever variety, are sufficient to explain their destruction, and therefore it is 100% true that 9/11 was in fact, an inside job, and that the official story about it is false. There is no need for conjecture about "directed energy weapons". We must be comitted to the truth and reality at all cost, except at the cost of truth and reality itself.

The best spokespersons

are all of us who state that the government myth is clearly not true and can succinctly state why AND who call for new, complete and independent investigations.

Anyone who engages in unnecessary and unfounded speculations WHILE working to get new investigations only undercuts themselves and the movement as a whole.

I am not suggesting that honest researchers should not postulate a credible hypothesis while employing the scientific method during their investigations of genuine evidence.

At this point in time I think that we really need to build a wall between the political activism focused on getting new investigations and the ongoing scientific research into the actual events of 9/11. As with the separation of church and state, this arrangement would benefit both groups.

Indeed, all aspects of the truth are consistent. One simply has to maintain a patient objectivity and wait for sufficient information.

The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.

Go View!

If you are not watching the VIEW right NOW....You should be!!

911 reference Counter at 5!!++++
Ignorance is NOT Bliss


They just had an incredible discussion about the traumatic effect of 9/11 on the psyche of everyone.... Displaying how we all were emotionally affected by 911 and how some of us might not even realize it.
They also talked about the effect it had on our children.

It was genius! excellent to think about.

As a child I remember when the Space Shuttle exploded. I was in fourth grade.

Imagine growing up during WWII with the air raid drills and the imagry that everyone had seen of the nuclear bombs!

Rosie even said Twin Towers and said her son said he couldn't remember how tall they were.

I really hope someone recorded this!
Ignorance is NOT Bliss

slow burn tactics

I'm pretty convinced that shows like the View are dropping tidbits right and left as part of a slow burn approach to admitting the truth.

Think about it... the MSM will lose all credibility soon if it doesn't own up to its "mistakes" on 9/11. It will cite trauma, groupthink, and whatever else necessary as it slowly starts covering the reality that there exists a debate as to what happened that day. This is the first step in a process in which they will attempt to coopt discussion of the truth.

People have such short memories--they will, when the MSM start covering the issue, probably forget how much the MSM has lied. They won't understand that what they will likely be offerred may well be a limited hangout. Those of us who have been right all along will be told we "go too far" that it's clear that they are now levelling with us, and to continue to be skeptical is a sign of paranoia.

Let's make sure that we don't let them gt away with ignoring any relevant aspects. let's make sure they don't try to get people to believe in LIHOP, and that Patsystan was the real enemy all along.

Understand how they decive in order to counter their lies of omission. We owe them nothing. The media must be held accountable for their complicity in the coverup regardless of whether they come around from the dark side or not.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


The corporate media monopoly must be dismantled

They know we're coming for them.

Any valid investigation into 9/11 will include a thorough examination of the corporate media's complicity.

Never forget.

The Eleventh Day of Every Month

Agreed, RT

I, too, think that this is all part of a premeditated plan to "break" a limited hangout story in the msm. It's way too scripted and pretty obvious (to me, at least). I have watched these carefully placed tidbits being dropped in the media since last August. (I could write an entire blog about this)

As 9/11 Truth moves toward the tipping point there will be continued attempts to inoculate the slowly awakening general public to the full truth about 9/11 and steer them toward an acceptable limited hangout option that will preserve the existing pathological paradigm.

The corporate msm are desperate to regain their lost credibility and maintain their position in the fracturing power structure. Far too late, they are realizing their increasing irrelevance and impotence, and will try every trick in their now too well known book to recover.

It will NOT work. Too much is known by too many already. As long as we keep talking to everyone we meet and opening their eyes we will get to the inevitable tipping point and the perps will be exposed.

RT, I am reluctant to bring this up as I agree with Col. Sparks that it's best not to add fuel to certain fires, it only creates more heat without shedding any additional light. That said, I really wish you would cease using the term "Patsystan". There exists volumes of well-documented research regarding the role of the ISI in the creation of al Qaeda, the Taliban and in the very lucrative heroin trade. Their involvement stretches back over almost 30 years and is extensive. The ISI and thus, Pakistan, are clearly junior partners with the CIA and the shadow government in creating and maintaining the false "war on terror" including the 9/11 operation. Given this, I do not think it useful or productive to mock and marginalize their role in 9/11 and their continuing role in the phony "war on terrorism."

I will grant you that Lt. Gen. Ahmed and other Pakistanis may be offered up as part of a limited hangout option at some point in the future. However, I think that the probability of this is extremely low as the Pakistanis are way too useful in their present role and possess nuclear weapons. (This too, could be an entire blog)

I also agree with Col. Sparks assertion that the roles (and the importance of those roles) played by elements within Pakistan and Israel are not mutually exclusive and, in fact, are complementary in my opinion. I think it is very important to keep in mind that the people running this insanely pathological game have one overriding ideology: the maintenance of POWER. (yet another blog)

I hope that you and yours are well.

The truth will set us free. Love is the only way forward.

Today? 9/11 on The View

again today? Hot dog! Thanks for the recap JJJames. I'd like to see this.


The history of Pakistan is a powerful testament to the underlying causes for 9/11. Pakistan has not been held accountable, and has been proven complicit in so much of the underlying operational aspects of creating the mythology behind al qaeda and the terrorist camps and supporting the alleged hijackers. clearly afghanistan is a key geopolitical objective for controlling the region - and the ISI acting as an arm of the CIA facilitates all the necessary financial and cultural foundations of occupying the region. hell - they even helped the Taliban escape from Tora Bora.

Those who insist on focusing on the $100,000 transfer to Atta - and using the term "patsystan" are actually embarassingly ignorant of the history behind this region.

Pakistan is FAR from being a Patsy. NOt only were they NOT blamed for 9/11 - the government did everything in their power to COVER UP their involvement - and now treats them like a favored ally. Iraq was blamed for 911 and Pakistan walked. There has been NO meaningful propaganda fingering Pakistan - so - frankly - the use of the term "Patsystan" is extremely weak, and almost makes me wonder if it is being coined to purposely deflect the movement away from the truth - in favor of the anti-semitism meme currently being fostered.


With regard to the use of the word "Patsystan," let's make it clear what the underlying premise is (as I understand it.) Pakistan as a patsy is part of a back-up strategy. There are many people for whom the hugest conceptual leap would be from the idea of al Qaeda participation to the idea of participation by any state power. With evidence of Pakistani involvement via the money transfer, which was hiding in plain sight to the extent that Paul Thompson was able to put the story together from MSM accounts, there is a nation state that can be brought out -- and patsyfied -- to take the fall. Yes, in our eyes, this implicates the CIA via ISI, but you have to ask yourself, in how many of the CIA's nefarious plots to overthrow governments and so forth, has the CIA' s involvement been accepted in the popular consciousness? Very, very few. I think someone might think that Pakistani involvement could be trotted out and Pakistan implicated, and the CIA connection squashed. (I don't personally think that's possible, but then I'm one of those people who think they've been involved in all sorts of illicit meddling.) You can argue that Pakistan is a patsy being held in abeyance, as a Plan B.

Secondly, the term refers to the fact that the whole region produces patsies for export.

Next, if we can't discuss these issues without bringing up the idea of "the anti-Semitic meme" then we're quite possibly going to miss a big chunk of the story. What that suggests is that there can be no legitimate discussion of Israel's participation. I ask everyone to take a minute to do a cursory, comparative "means, motive, opportunity" analysis of the two nations -- or more specifically their intelligence apparatuses -- in order to see how unreasonable it is to exclude Israel from any scrutiny.

Finally, everyone who repeatedly brings up anti-Semitism and "Holocaust denial" is morally obligated to do so in the full awareness that we may be on the threshold of a second Holocaust, this time targeting Muslims. Anti-Muslim rhetoric is duplicating the anti-Jewish rhetoric of last century in a chillingly accurate way. In this context, any argument which serves to bolster the demonization of Muslims represents an active denial of the coming Holocaust. Foregrounding the hijacker myth (the myth that THEY are the central agents in the 9/11 story) is such a policy.

pretty much. Pakistan is the

pretty much. Pakistan is the fall guy for when they cant contain/ignore/ridcule us truthers anymore. im all for using the term Patsystan. this DOES NOT mean that the research into Pakistan involvement is not important. it is. but i totally get why people would call them Patsystan. "they" think that everything will be ok and that the end of the road is when Pakistan takes the fall. "they" need to think again.

That's reaching

it is an opinion - not a fact. claiming that Pakistan "s the fall guy for when they cant contain/ignore/ridcule us truthers anymore" is simply too much of a stretch. Pakistan is not a patsy in any way shape or form - and calling it such is intellectually dishonest. Pakistan is a protected US asset - and arm of the CIA - with operational significance for leveraging USA policy in the region.

Claiming it is a Patsy is just silly nonsense that people believe - through sheer repetition - can be forwarded as an idea.

You know,

I noticed something in an early post of yours that clicked. You said something like "Connections between Pakistan and the key players are solid." It made me wonder, who do you think the main players are? Because, leaving the whole issue of whether the hijackers actually flew the planes and stipulating that they did, the planes crashing into the buildings was a sideshow. Everything about the hijackers is secondary. Pakistan's connection to the hijackers is ultimately secondary because the hijackers didn't "do" 9/11 -- they just played the part of the evil Muslims in order to channel our rage and shock at the enormous destruction toward the Evil Muslims interested parties wanted us to go to war with.

I also think that, following along Webster Tarpley-an lines, it is possible to come full circle -- from al Qaeda, to state sponsorship, to a border-spanning, government-private industry spanning rogue network. Although the nation of Israel had means, motive (see "A Clean Break"), and opportunity (Mossad), it's probably a stretch to say that any involvement is properly ascribed to the nation per se, rather than to elements within the nation.

Cass, this and your post above are amazingly lucid analyses...

THANK YOU. And Chris too for chiming in. The demonization of muslims and the ongoing mass murder of them is indeed "the new holocaust" and we ARE the german people letting it happen. No siree, not on our watch. NEVER AGAIN means never again to anyone.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero - Harvard Task Force


Considering the US is

Considering the US is politically and militarily a 500pound gorilla and Pakistan is, at most, a chimpanzee--reguardless of whether they have been patsies--they could be made into patsies at a moment's notice.

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

Don't forget the nukes

Col. Sparks -

Pakistan has nukes, India has nukes and China has a lot of nukes. Only the truly insane would play games in this neighborhood. Playing the "Pakistan card" is a very desperate last resort, imo.

I know, considering who's presently in the White House, this isn't very encouraging. But if the Schultz, Baker, Scocroft gang have any pull at all, they will not go there.

I hope that you and yours are well.

The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.

It shows how bad things are

It shows how bad things are when we hope the evil sane people have more pull than the evil insane people.

I never thought the day would come when I'd look back on George Bush Sr.'s reign with nostalgia--"He's evil, but at least he's sane!"

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.


I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want these maniacs impeached yesterday.



casseia -

Re: Patsystan -

Thank you for clearly explaining why you use the term "Patsystan". I have a lot of respect for you and will not begrudge you your use of the word. I would not choose to use it as I think that it oversimplifies and confuses a very complicated relationship. However, this is a very minor issue and we can simply agree to disagree about its usefulness, I will just smile when I see the term from now on. That said, I recommend not using the term when interacting with the general public. (jk)

I will concede that Pakistan may be used as part of a back-up limited hangout plan. I think that this has a very low probability (as I stated above) and I really hope things don't get that far.

Patsy Arabia seems more apt as most of the "hijackers" were Saudis, but I'm quibbling now. LOL

Regarding Israel and "the anti-Semitic meme": I have no doubt that some Israelis and some members of Mossad were involved at some level, but I am willing to wait for real investigations to show these connections in public. As for my own research, I follow all leads no matter where they go. I just think that the political downside of this issue for the movement far outweighs any reason to push it in public.

I couldn't agree with you more about the toxicity of anti-Muslim rhetoric and I believe that an Iraqi genocide is underway right now. I am ashamed that my government and my country are perpetrating it. The invasion itself was illegal and the use of white phosphorus and depleted uranium weapons are clear and egregious war crimes.

I highly recommend 9/11 and American Empire, Vol. II: Christians, Jews and Muslims Speak Out as it has some very interesting and useful perspectives on these and other issues.

I hope that you and yours are well.

The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.


Did anyone record this today? It really is a must see!
Ignorance is NOT Bliss