Fetzer Event in Columbus.

I am a concerned 9/11 truther and I must preface everything I say here with this statement.

I am not here to put anyone down, or belittle anyone's efforts. I seek merely to give some constructive criticism of this event in order to focus and hone the efforts of the 9/11 truth movement.

When the 9/11 movement questioned the "Pod" section of Loose Change, it was removed from the movie in order to present the best evidence. This is the difference between the gentlemen of Loose Change, and Mr. Fetzer. Mr. Fetzer chooses to discuss the more outlandish theories in the public domain, in my opinion to the detrement of the movement. I believe that we are still in the court of public opinion, and that we must stick to our best evidence in the public eye.

Several things about Mr. Fetzer's presentation upset me.

1) Use of video footage:
The only video footage Mr. Fetzer used was of what he calls "dustification" of the pillar remaining after a tower has collapse. This is certainly a strange occurence, but I suggest that it may not have dustified, but there may have been a lot of dust on it from the buidling collapse, and when it was blown from the bottom, the dust fell slower than the beams because of air resistance. (Imagine pulling a tablecloth off of a table quickly that had confetti on it.)

He omitted video of the towers collapses. No building 7 no towers 1 and 2. He showed this only with slides.

The downsides to this:
1) Sense of "time" is lost
2) Does not mention the "squibs"
3) Slides cannot fully validate the near free fall speed claims.
4) Lose view of the horizontal forces pushing material outward, which if that were to be done with "star-wars beam weapons" (actual title of Judy Wood's web paper) I fail to see how.

One thing I found unsettling, was that this was NOT an open discussion. We were given a purple index card on which we could write 1 question. The question would be collected and then given to Mr. Fetzer, at which point he preceded to paraphrase the questions given instead of reading them as they were written.

The effects of this:
1) Your question is limited to what you can fit onto the index card.
2) You can't ask follow-up questions.
3) Mr. Fetzer was allowed to paraphrase the question and while I can't speak for others, he certainly softballed my question quite significantly.
4) What kind of model for how we want things to be when we are limiting the debate so that dissent is reduced!? Isn't this what the 9/11 truth movement is all about? Was I mistaken that this reason is precisely why we need to have honest, complete, and rigorous questioning? If we purport to be immune to questioning are we no better than those who would say "With us or against us?"

Original question:
In Judy Wood and Morgan Reynold's paper (website) entitled "The Star-Wars Beam Weapons" they have pictures that seem to suggest that car fires at the WTC were unusually selective. Would you not agree that this is a misleading question, given that pictures of regular car fires are of little or no significant diffrence?

Fetzer Fires
http://www.freewebs.com/springfield911truth/fetzerfires.JPG

Regular Fires
http://www.freewebs.com/springfield911truth/regularfires

Paraphrased question:
This person seems to think that these fires were somewhat like regular fires and asks me what I think about that. (I'll have to watch the video again, but this was definately the vibe of how he paraphrased what was a much more cutting question.)

Lastly. The focus of his speech seemed to bear directly upon discrediting the Thermate hypothesis. He put up a chart that had a few characteristics of the collapse along the top. On the left were two theories, one of his, and one of Dr. Jones. I found this very disturbing.

It is very important to understand that Dr. Jones theory does not pretend to know EXACTLY what happened to the top floors of the building, and what caused them to be pulverized. Dr. Fetzer seemed to be saying that his theory explained more of the characteristics, and the crowd most likely percieves that as. "Oh, Dr. Fetzer is right, and Thermate is wrong." DONT BE FOOLED.

What characteristics did he use?
Pyroclastic Flows / Molten Steel / Bathtub Damage

What characteristics didn't he use?
Sulfidation of the steel, traces of Manganese, traces of Borium, H-Beams with an obvious diagonal cut.

Isn't it interesting that he neglected ALL of the categories that might suggest thermate cutter charges? This seems less scientific, and more like some of the old tricks of Fox News.

Finally it was asked "Who will you vote for in 2008?"

He liked "Al Gore." - Does this seem strange to anyone else? Why would such a die-hard Truther push for a non 9/11 truth democrat when Ron Paul, a 9/11 truth candidate is in the running?

Also, I notice that Fetzer is always quick to bash Republicans. It's obvious that this is more than Republicans and Democrats. They aren't going to save us. We have to do it ourself. The democrats have the majority now, and I still see a patriot act. I still see no reduction in troops. I still see no new investigation into 9/11. It is up to us to be smart enough to see when Democrats are going to save us, and it is also up to us to be smart enough to see when some things within the movement, are out to see that the "divide and rule" m.o. keeps us from servin justice, and not give them the validity they so desire.

Thank you, and good luck.
Jesse Calhoun
Springfield 911 Truth

Thank You

Thank you Jesse for this report.

Oh yeah

I forgot that the white smoke that you saw around the base of the building. That may have been "molecular dissociation."

And he really did say "Lazers, Mazers, and Plasmoids."

If you are going to introduce that to the public, I need a little warm up first. I'm a little rusty on my plasmoids as I'm sure most of the general public is too.

Thanks Jesse...

The "TRUTH" appreciates your candor.

Best wishes

people have...

CLEARLY debunked, "what he calls "dustification" of the pillar remaining after a tower has collapse."

So basically, Fetzer is STILL pushing the "exotic weaponry" debunked and "crazy sounding" nonsense.

Thank you Jesse for this honest report.

Just out of curiosity, did he receive any applause for this presentation?


"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."

Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton

Response

The response was positive. My hope is that people can be swayed by what we agree on, but if people are turned away from the Thermate hypothesis then we will have suffered a great loss of what appears to be our best forensic evidence.

Fraudtacular

Shilling for Democrats and inflaming an artificial left/right divide has always been a mainstay of Fetzer's... uh, work - since long before he sank his fangs into the truth movement's neck. Thanks for the report.

The Eleventh Day of Every Month

When I think of...

People that are curious about the unanswered questions of 9/11 that go to these kinds of events, only to hear this rubbish, it infuriates me to no end.

When I think of all of the hard work, and dedication people have put into this effort to get us where we are today, to GET those curious people to come to an event such as this, I become LIVID.

Fetzer has slapped all of you in the face.


"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."

Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton

It's absolutely sickening

and quite possibly criminal.

I don't think little index cards are going to work for Mr Fetzer in AZ.

The Eleventh Day of Every Month

When I think of...

People like Donna Marsh O'Connor, who sent me a statement to read at the Arizona conference as well as pictures of her daughter to hold up as I read it, and people like Bob McIlvaine who lost his son Bobby...

There are no words to describe my anger.


"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."

Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton

To be fair

To be fair I have to mention that I believe that was the idea of the group as they were worried that there was going to be a spectacle that made the "Star-wars beam weapons" more prominent, so they were trying in my mind to do damage control.

The end result was unfortunate because Dr. Fetzer was able to present questionable material to the audience without much significant rebuttal.

I still think that we have to let the conversation be as open as possible, and let the cards fall where they may. After all, the limiting of dissent is part of why were here.

Columbus 9/11 truth is probably the most active group in Ohio and I applaud their efforts. It's unfortunate but necessary reality that having the big names always leads to greater scrutiny, and hopefully through that scrutiny we can learn and improve the goals of the movement.

criminal

indeed

covert counter intelligence operations in the United States are indeed illegal when used to disrupt and threaten peaceful oraganizations. Now, i suppose there are a lot of grey areas here, and in an age when the president of the united states openly declares his right to open our mail and wiretap our phones without consulting with the FISA courts, i suppose all bets are off when it comes to the wacky professor and his space beams.

but - we are indeed looking at this from a legal perspective.

things to keep in mind regarding Dr. Fetzer:

1. He was graduate from Princeton University - magna cum laud. He is no dummy.

2. He joined the marines immediately after graduating.

3, His own self-professed area of expertise is in the science of disinformation. He wrote two papers on the subject entitled " Information - Does it have to be true?" and "Disinformation - the use of false information." In a truly Orwellian position he claims that information does not have to be true to in fact be considered legitimate information. Using this logic a decoy duck is in fact a kind of duck.

4. Someone i know corresponded with the Oxford Professor he cites and disagrees with in these papers who states:

"Your conclusion is indeed a coherent consequence of what Fetzer et al. have been arguing . That is to say, if false information is as good as information (if false banknotes are just a type of banknotes, not something that fails to qualify as banknotes) then spreading and using false information is perfectly fine and acceptable."

Indeed - it appears that Dr. Fetzer has made a science out of knowingly and intentionally LYING.

5. Dr. Fetzer has worked in concert with other KNOWN disinformation websites and researchers - while attacking researchers who present more honest and cogent ideas. A simple review of this chart will show you the relationship between Dr. Fetzer and many of these other sources:

http://crisisinamerica.org/media/disinformation.htm

Are we to believe it is a coincidence that the Space Beams people work inconcert with the No-Planes people and the Hologram people and the attack dogs (like Haupt) and the TVFakery people and on and on?

6 - As you so astutely point out, Fetzer and others in this network of researchers do not appear to correct themselves. Over and over again they present evidence that has been debunked - or that could be effectively debated.

7 - Supporters of this particular network of 'researchers' appear to be the most aggresive and Vehement in the movement, often presenting thinly veiled threats, threatening rhetoric, and smear campaigns against anyone who challenges their research. The use of nazi imagery, swastikas, concentration camps, etc (which tthey claim is 'satire') exactly mirrors that cointelpro propaganda distributed by the FBI in the 1960s targeting SDS, Jerry Rubin, Abby Hoffman and others.

8 - We know as a fact that cointelpro exists, and that modern day infiltrations are taking place - as documented by Michael Moore in Fahrenheit 911 where he demonstrates that a San Diego anti-war group was infiltrated by a government agent.

9 - All of these facts are currently under review by legal authorities and civil libertarians.

I totally agree, great write

I totally agree, great write up! We've got a couple of clowns to contend with unfortunately, David Shayler being another complete moron.

Checkers in the Chess club

Fetzer's assignment, whether from someone else, or the voices in his head, seems to be to consistently present the worst we have to offer. and make himself look as incredible as possible. He demonstrates no concern for strategic promotion.

I question his intentions, and have concerns about his influence. But the attention he demands does not imply support. I would certainly think that less than 20% of our movement promotes his garbage, and that number is shrinking fast. The Fetzer/Seigel/Haupt alliance, or dark alliance, as I've been calling it, may represent that these people, who really have very little in common, feel that their position is threatened. While combining their efforts gives their project a great deal more energy to work with, it also makes them a more focuses target.

Unfortunately we should consider the possibility that this is their intention. They may want to create the big target with which to focus our frustration, encourage greater distraction, and draw negative attention. In other words, they may think this is going to be the best way to waste our time and frustrate our efforts.

WE HAVE TO PROVE THEM WRONG!!! And I think the response I'm seeing on this thread is very promising. It doesn't look like we are really buying this crap. I would encourage everyone to focus their time on local promotion and coordinating national events that do not include these people people as speakers. Of course we still need to shoot down their fantasy speculation in the interest of quelling misinformation being innocently passed around in the movement.

But lets be careful not to advance their more subtle intentions by mistakenly indicating that these people are a part of the 9/11 truth movement. I have stated elsewhere, that as these people do not demonstrate a commitment to the most basic priorities and motivations most widely held by those in this movement, that they are really investing in something quite different. From an outside view, they will continue to be associated with our cause, but that is only their intention, and not the fact of the matter.

In other words, don't come to the chess club if you want to play checkers. They can sit in the same room with us, but they are still playing a different game.

International Truth Movement
http://www.truthmove.org

Less than 20%?

I'd wager less than 2%. 

The Eleventh Day of Every Month

"But lets be careful not to

"But lets be careful not to advance their more subtle intentions by mistakenly indicating that these people are a part of the 9/11 truth movement. I have stated elsewhere, that as these people do not demonstrate a commitment to the most basic priorities and motivations most widely held by those in this movement, that they are really investing in something quite different. From an outside view, they will continue to be associated with our cause, but that is only their intention, and not the fact of the matter.

In other words, don't come to the chess club if you want to play checkers. They can sit in the same room "with us, but they are still playing a different game."

Exactly, this is precisely how I feel as well! I'm trying to write something similar to that and this thread about David Shayler's latest appearance on primetime national BBC radio. I think I'm going to call it;

"The 9/11 Truth Movement and Conspiracy Theorists – A Call To Readdress Priorities"

The Fetzer/Seigel/Haupt alliance ?

Isn't Seigel the guy who filmed the collapses from Hoboken?

What has he done wrong?

John Doraemi publishes Crimes of the State Blog
http://crimesofthestate.blogspot.com/

All information is vetted for accuracy. If you have a factual challenge to any of the information, email: johndoraemi --at-- yahoo.com.

Allied himself with Fetzer and Haupt

But more specifically here's his latest handiwork.

"WMD at the WTC"

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3211807290597119388&q=wmd+at+the...

International Truth Movement
http://www.truthmove.org

This makes me fell much

This makes me fell much better about the Shayler situation;

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=7160

Here's a relevant quote I

Here's a relevant quote I found while compiling info for this article I'm doing;

“The most perfidious way of harming a cause consists of defending it deliberately with faulty arguments.” - Friedrich Nietzsche, German philosopher (1844 - 1900)

Excellent points all around.

Excellent points all around. Probably the best "disinformation" thread I've seen on blogger. I'll repost this tidbit from the Konformist:

The founder of the model for supermarket tabloid publishing was a man named Generoso Pope. In 1951, as Mr. Pope would readily admit in his own "Who's Who" Biography, he worked for the CIA in their psychological warfare division. In 1952, he bought the Hearst-owned New York Enquirer (he changed the name to The National Enquirer) and started his media empire, supposedly independent of his lone one year stint (or so he claims) in league with Langely. Pope financed the purchase via a loan for twenty grand from mobster Frank Costello, who also happened to be godfather of Pope's children. According to Pope, the loan was at "zero interest." Thus, the beginnings of tabloid journalism have the predictable intelligence/Mafia fingerprints all over the place.

In retrospect, it all makes sense. At the time, the CIA plot known as Operation MOCKINGBIRD was in full effect, an attempt to put it's bloody tentacles over the entire korporate media apparatus, an attempt that has clearly succeeded. But as any expert of Machiavellian plots will tell you, to truly kontrol something, you also must kontrol the alternatives. It should then be no surprise that suddenly the supermarket tabloid popped up, to give the masses a false option of "choice". By being an option that is so easily discredited, it somehow manages to reinforce the "legitimacy" and "integrity" of mainstream korporate journalism. The tabloid also serves for middle America as another kontrol mechanism, the pages filled with a reactionary ideology that is disgustingly racist and sexist, which explains why tabloids regularly have been propaganda mills for the ruling klass. And finally, the tabloids are the perfect place to throw a legitimate story that the elites desire to discredit.

http://www.konformist.com/jonbenet.htm

The Eleventh Day of Every Month

His source says it all.

http://911blogger.com/node/5905

We need to make a point of distancing ourselves from these people. Considering JF is the founder of st911, it is necessary to convince http://911scholars.org/WhoAreWe.html to come together into a truly "headless" group, where one member (JF in this case) cannot be so damaging.

-Justin Keogh
Tucson, AZ

Is it any wonder...

When Griffin and Jones started getting attention, Fetzer stepped right in to hijack their efforts with the "scholars", where he controlled the website, the PR and the group. He is working for the other side, no doubt about that.

I'd like sources to his "disinformation" efforts.

Jesse -- Good work. Do not trust that fuck.

John Doraemi publishes Crimes of the State Blog
http://crimesofthestate.blogspot.com/

All information is vetted for accuracy. If you have a factual challenge to any of the information, email: johndoraemi --at-- yahoo.com.