Peter B. Collins Interviews Lukery And Sibel Edmonds

[GW's comment: In an essay entitled "Sibel Edmonds: Last chance to put Perle, Feith & Hastert in orange jumpsuits", Lukery urges everyone to call Waxman in a final push to convince him to hold hearings on whistleblower Edmonds. And as Jon Gold points out, a stunning new fact came out in last night's radio interview of Edmonds and Lukery: a Turkish group linked with the American neocons and AIPAC issued passports for at least two of the patsies ... er, hijackers.]

Transcript Available here.

Click Here

There are some other things that Sibel knows about 911 that didn't make the report, for example, some of the people that she listened to on the wiretaps, I think it was the ATC but I'm not sure, organized passports (ed note: that should be visas) for at least two of the hijackers.

visas for the ALLEGED hijackers

there is no proof they hijacked anything!

____

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force

 

why is dKos covering this?

You would think that if this information was dangerous to the 9/11 perps (the real 9/11 perps) that dKos would not allow it on his site, and that the site's thought police would be all over it calling it a troll diary etc., but no, they seem to like it over there. Isn't that... odd?

____

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force

 

Because...

Sibel was planted long ago after the attacks to be a red herring, and now DailyKos is playing their hand. Didn't you know that?


"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."

Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton

your sarcasm aside...

that is indeed a possibility, but time will tell. You're more than welcome to put all of your eggs in the Sibel basket, I will wait to see what if anything useful comes from this.

Anything posted on dailyKos--ANYTHING--should be taken with a grain of salt by real truthers. After all, why would someone this hostile to 911 truth allow the publication of anything potentially damaging to the official fairy tale?

From the Daily Kos FAQ:

Controversial 9/11 Diaries

DailyKos accepts that the 9/11 attacks were perpetrated by agents of Al-Qaeda. It is forbidden to write diaries that:

refer to claims that American, British, Israeli, or any government assisted in the attacks
refer to claims that the airplanes that crashed into the WTC and Pentagon were not the cause of the damage to those buildings or their subsequent collapse
Authoring or recommending these diaries may result in banning from Daily Kos.

____

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force

 

Oh I see...

So you're portraying me as putting all of my eggs into the Sibel basket, even though I have 100's of other blogs about different subjects, and an entire site full of different subjects.

A lie?


"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."

Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton

WOW that sounds like a very

WOW that sounds like a very "open & accepting" atmosphere for discussion?! (sarcasm laden)

"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." ---- Mark Twain

dKos isn't 'covering' it, it's allowing it...

because Lukery is very careful to keep within the dKos guidelines and has been tirelessly slipping information in there for a long time now. It's a good way to reach a large audience and Lukery is doing a great job at it. Kudos.

ok, but where are the anti-9/11 truth people?

who normally would be trashing anything 9/11 truth related there? Surely they're aware of Sibel's case, and if they feared it could make them all look like the liars that they are I would imagine they would be commenting up a storm, but they'renot!

____

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force

 

In case you hadn't noticed...

The debunkers have ALWAYS avoided Sibel Edmonds. C'mon "Real Truther", you should know these things.


"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."

Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton

I set out to prove you wrong, Jon...

..but I failed. At least at SLC. They have a handy search bar and I typed in Sibel Edmonds--de rien. Nada. Zero.

I was sure I'd seen her name over there. Then I searched in caches and found it, but only in the comments.

Hmm, anyone up for searching JREF? They don't like me over there--unless one can search their site without being a member...

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

Dear...

The best "debunkings" I've heard in regards to Sibel Edmonds are...

1) She's just a dumb nobody translator.
2) She works for the Government.
3) She's trying to become famous.
4) Who?
5) She's lying.
6) She is so hot.
7) If she knew anything, she'd be dead.
8) You stupid 9/11 denier. We debunked Sibel Edmonds years ago.


"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."

Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton

what would 'they' have to say about this?

There are no 'theories' being embraced... nothing for them to try to debunk. This is a more subtle form of persuasion... pointing the way instead of barking in people's face through a bullhorn.

Anyway, those idiots at dailykos seem willing to embrace anything as long as it helps them politically (without consequences!), which is all they care about for the most part. At least thats the way they were before I got booted.

thnx

actually i didnt even know what the dkos guidelines were...
http://wotisitgood4.blogspot.com

I'm glad you're here...

Any word? As of 10:20 last night, Sibel told me, "Not yet; not a word."


"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."

Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton

silence is golden/deafening

there are a bunch of people whose phone calls arent being returned today. we aren't sure whether this is a good or bad sign.

unfortunately, sibel is going away for a few weeks - so we aren't sure how things are going to play out.

http://wotisitgood4.blogspot.com

The evidence indicates that none of Osama's 19 flunkies

were at the controls of any airliners on 9/11.

This also puts the kibosh to all the phone calls too, btw, as you can't jibe having calls about razor-wielding hijackers slicing up pilots & crew, when the planes at the WTC were drones; and a missile, drone, or explosives blew-up the Pentagon. (Not to mention that an airliner didn't disappear into a hole in the ground at Shanksville.)

It is equally preposterous that some indestructable black-boxes

could not be found, yet so many of the "passengers" were ID'ed with fragile, microscopic DNA! In other words, black-boxes obliterated, yet organic DNA in fine condition!

Not to mention those

Not to mention those indestructable passports.... ;-)

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

First of all, it was said

First of all, it was said that they got the people we know as the hijackers passports. Even if they didn't hijack planes, they were still in some way involved.

And, as to why the Kos hasn't deleted this page... Maybe they just didn't read it. I looked at the comments, and got the idea that no one made it past the first half of the transcript. She's just a name that people on the left know and seem to like. Her story is published everywhere from CNN to the NYTimes, and she doesn't talk about controlled demolitions, just that we need a better investigation. She's part of the government, had to discredit, and doesn't say anything that she doesn't know about.

my grandmother got a passport around the same time

if she had been named as one of the hijackers by BushCo, with as little evidence as have these other passport recipients, would that mean she had something to do with 9/11? No, it would mean she got a passport and was accused by BushCo of hijacking a plane. Granted, if my grandma had no business getting a passport (or visa) then whoever helped her to get it might have committed a crime, but that STILL doesn't connect anyone to 9/11. What evidence do you see, Slipgrid, for these people having been "in some way involved?"

____

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force

 

This...

Should be on the front page.

The American Turkish Council organized passports for two of the alleged hijackers.

On a different subject... is anybody else tired of the "everything is fake, selective witness promotion, there was no debris found at the Pentagon, Controlled Demolition is the only thing we should be focusing on, things like Whistle-blowers aren't important, things that conflict with the 9/11 Report aren't important" people?

I am. I don't know what happened on 9/11. I have no friggin clue. I do know that we were lied to, and those that lied to us are also suspects in the attacks. For OBVIOUS, and PROVABLE reasons.


"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."

Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton

see where you're coming from

yeah, I'm tired of the opposition thinking we need to give them exactly what happened and exactly how it went down.

the official freaking explanation doesn't even come close to describing EXACTLY what happened.

isn't it enough that there are SO MANY unanswered questions? and a new investigation should be opened on that basis alone.

yeah, I'm tired of it all.

A new investigation...

Should be opened simply because the last one was completely compromised.

BY THE WHITE HOUSE!!!

They should be removed from office, and put into a holding cell where they wait for their Nurembergesque trial.

Or, the 9/11 Trials as I like to call them.


"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."

Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton

hearings...

I often think of how Bush had to be interviewed during the "hearings" in private, with no recording devices, and no note-taking of any kind, AND WITH HIS VICE PRESIDENT by his side! This should reopen the investigation.

not to mention the fact that they fought the formation of the commission, and then hand-picked the "independent" members....THIS should reopen the investigation.

The fact that they secretly concluded that NORAD's lies were borderline CRIMINAL should reopen the investigation.

The Pakistan money trail, molten metal, Building 7, etc...

I long for the days of the 9/11 Trials.

Bush interviewed

Don't forget his demeanor at the "press conference" afterward. That's a moment which stands out like a sore Jerome Hauer.

Want to figure out 9/11? Ponder the 9/11 "Mineta Stone"

you don't know what happened on 9/11?

I do. Two planes hit the twin towers. The towers then were demolished using explosives, killing many inside. Tower 7 was then also demolished, apparently destroying much evidence of wall street crimes. I know that the towers were privatized 6 weeks before when Larry Silverstein, owner of building 7, signed a 99 year lease on them. I know that the Bush administration then claimed without evidence that Osama bin Laden was responsible, and I know that Osama denied involvement. I know that Bush then used 9/11 as an excuse to assault the constitution and launch illegal wars on the people of two countries. I know that the 9/11 Commission was led by a Bush loyalist and that its report was grossly inaccurate. I know that something hit the Pentagon and that the government claims without proof, again, that it was flight 77.

There is in fact a LOT we know. There are also admittedly things we don't know, like who exactly designed the demolition of the towers and who actually physically placed the demolition charges in the buildings. We have more than enough info based on what we DO know to convince pretty much anyone that the official story is bogus. Now, Sibel claims to know something too. Not exactly about 9/11 though there are apparent tie-ins. I DON'T KNOW what Sibel knows, and until I do I refuse to promote her as having valuable information--instead I will promote her as claiming to have important knowledge with the caveat that we cannot afford to trust anyone completely.

____

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force

 

Good for you.

Wow... someone who knows what happened on 9/11. Here I am, 4+ years later not knowing what happened, and some anonymous site user knows just what happened.

Controlled Demolition is a theory by the way. A "hypothesis to be tested".

I must be a fucking idiot, not knowing what happened. You know what people, don't listen to me. I have no idea what I'm talking about.


"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."

Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton

Strong case, RT...

and this is a good summary.

______________________________________
"Evil can only exist as long as we support it."
M.K. Gandhi

So shall we BOCOTT+THE+MSM?

I think Jon is making the

I think Jon is making the distinction--that would be required in a court of law--between a reasonable, probable theory based on common sense and personal research and actually KNOWING and being able to prove in a court of law.

;-)

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

Precisely.

It's nice to know that our government didn't have to worry about such restrictions of actually presenting facts.

Haven't seen a post by Sparks or Jon that I didn't totally agree with.

Hi...

Do I know you? I notice you're from PA.


"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."

Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton

nah

just a newbie here that has been reading posts on this site for a very long time.

Give it time

The wacky individuals that we are, there's bound to be something in the future!
;-)

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

just to recap...

Basically it looks like Sibel may have legitimate dirt on a few people centering around illicit trading in weapons and drugs and who knows what else. My concern is to know exactly how 9/11 fits into the story. If it is simply that some alleged hijackers got visas, well, that's not earth shattering, and may lead some people to think that the official conspiracy theory must therefore be true. In other words, her information may be tangential to 9/11 but not useful in making our case. It could therefore potentially be used as a limited hangout--basically appeasing people by nabbing some neocons for some run of the mill (compared to 9/11) crimes. Like I said, we'll know when we know more about what info she has and what info will be made public if any by Waxman (no friend of 9/11 truth either)

I found this further info... the Israel/Turkey connection, especially as embodied by Feith, the architect of the fake case against Saddam, would seem to be an important part of her story...

here's a transcript of former CIA Istanbul deputy chief of base, Philip Giraldi, lifted from the pages of American Conservative magazine and carried on Stress:

Sibel Edmonds, the Turkish FBI translator turned whistleblower who has been subjected to a gag order could provide a major insight into how neoconservatives distort US foreign policy and enrich themselves at the same time. On one level, her story appears straightforward: several Turkish lobbying groups allegedly bribed congressmen to support policies favourable to Ankara. But beyond that, the Edmonds revelations become more serpentine and appear to involve AIPAC, Israel and a number of leading neoconservatives who have profited from the Turkish connection. Israel has long cultivated a close relationship with Turkey since Ankara’s neighbours and historic enemies - Iran, Syria and Iraq - are also hostile to Tel Aviv. Islamic Turkey has also had considerable symbolic value for Israel, demonstrating that hostility to Muslim neighbours is not a sine qua non for the Jewish state.

Turkey benefits from the relationship by securing general benevolence and increased aid from the US Congress - as well as access to otherwise unattainable military technology. The Turkish General Staff has a particular interest because much of the military spending is channeled through companies in which the generals have a financial stake, making for a very cozy and comfortable business arrangement. The commercial interest has also fostered close political ties, with the American Turkish Council, American Turkish Cultural Alliance and the Assembly of Turkish American Associations all developing warm relationships with AIPAC and other Jewish and Israel advocacy groups throughout the US.

Someone has to be in the middle to keep the happy affair going, so enter the neocons, intent on securing Israel against all comers and also keen to turn a dollar. In fact the neocons seem to have a deep and abiding interest in Turkey, which, under other circumstances, might be difficult to explain. Doug Feith’s International Advisors Inc, a registered agent for Turkey in 1989 - 1994, netted $600,000 per year from Turkey, with Richard Perle taking $48,000 annually as a consultant. Other noted neoconservatives linked to Turkey are former State Department number three, Marc Grossman, current Pentagon Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Eric Edelman, Paul Wolfowitz and former congressman Stephen Solarz. The money involved does not appear to come from the Turkish government, and FBI investigators are trying to determine its source and how it is distributed. Some of it may come from criminal activity, possibly drug trafficking, but much more might come from arms dealing. Contracts in the hundreds of millions, or even billions of dollars provide considerable fat for those well placed to benefit. Investigators are also looking at Israel’s particular expertise in the illegal sale of US military technology to countries like China and India. Fraudulent end-user certificates produced by Defense Ministries in Israel and Turkey are all that is needed to divert military technology to other, less benign, consumers. The military-industrial-complex/neocon network is also well attested. Doug Feith has been associated with Northrup Grumman for years, while defense contractors fund many neocon-linked think tanks and “information” services. Feith, Perle and a number of other neocons have long had beneficial relationships with various Israeli defense contractors.

____

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force

 

Yeah, after 5.5 years, I'm truly hoping that Edmonds will reveal

some amazing inside-job evidence, not some fluff merely demonstrating the Bush regime to be incompetent!

she doesn't have a smoking gun

she keeps saying that. read the interview again - or read her letter to Kean et al, or read my 'sibel - 911' post for a bit more.
http://wotisitgood4.blogspot.com/2006/07/sibel-911.html

http://wotisitgood4.blogspot.com

Sibel has no smoking gun for us

... at least that indicts the top dogs (or near top)... if she did, she would have gone to a non-extradition country and spilled the beans by now, or even been 'taken out'. I think the best we can hope for is someone that was complicit who might flip on the others. The worst would support the offical horsecrap story, but I sort of doubt that. Maybe it'll just be links to the money trail.

Edmonds/Shayler/who's next

Every time I hear about what potential explosive testimony Sibel Edmonds may give, it seems to get more and more main stream.

Maybe she is being used to get rid of some over exposed neo-cons, but the true power merchants remain untouched. Who knows. I called Waxman, told his flunkys to put another tick mark on the page. I need to do something.

We need someone to grow a Conscious, put massive amounts of evidence and pictures on line, go into hiding, come back to testify, then we can all get on with our lives. Is that so much to ask?

even if Bush and Cheney were arrested...

...the 'true power merchants' would indeed remain untouched. Let's just do what we can to get all the perpetrators possible and hope they start squealing on the unseen overlords.

I'm sorry...

But did you just compare David "Holograms Hit the Towers" Shayler, and Sibel Edmonds?

Shameful.

Yeah, uncovering the underworld of our Government is "mainstream".


"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."

Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton

just curious what is it about Sibel that is so explosive?

Also , I didn't realize you had such a problem with controlled demolition , Jon. Surely you concur that several cd's occured on that day?

I don't have...

Have a problem with the theory of Controlled Demolition. In fact, I'm fairly convinced that it happened (at least to Building 7). What I have a problem with is this entire movement leading with a theory instead of cold hard facts.

What if it wasn't Controlled Demolition? Hmmm? What then?

Sibel Edmonds stumbled across the corrupt system that made 9/11 happen. If her testimony completely discredits the 9/11 Commission and their report, in front of the American people, and a few neocons get frog walked from the White House, then that is explosive.


"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."

Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton

'The only reasonable theory available'

That's how David Ray Griffin has characterized the argument for controlled demolitions at the WTC on 9/11, in view of the absurdity of the official explanation.

why does everyone

have to drink the controlled demolition koolaide? Surely that is turning away a significant number of people who simply want a new and independent investigation without already having a preconceived notion of exactly what happened.

The CD crowd is starting to look like a religion... a religion of intollerance to boot.

If someone doesn't believe the official lie about 9/11 but also isn't 100% convinced in your personal brand of 'truth' that's still no reason to turn on them. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. We're all working towards the same end goal, aren't we?

oh dear

NO, the enemy of my enemy is NOT my friend--that's the kind of thinking that produced modern militant Islam in the first place. And whether or not we're all working towards the same end goal depends on who "we" is. Do you include hologram proponents? Didn't think so. As for controlled demolition being a theory, well, so are relativity, quantum mechanics, and our explanation of gravity. For those who insist that CD is "just a theory" I would ask--how many other theories of the towers' collapse are there that have not been proven to be impossible? Pancake collapse? What are the other theories? Simple answer--there are no other theories being offered for the towers' collapses that are even remotely plausible. None. So we have a "theory" that fits all the evidence, as opposed to theories that ignore half the evidence at least and make impossible claims. Go ahead and call that "religious devotion" to a theory if you want, or "Real Truther's personal brand of truth"--it doesn't matter what you call it. The twin towers were demolished on 9/11 with explosives. Honestly, how else do YOU account for the different aspects of the collapse demonstrating CD? You don't have to agree with me, but explaining your reason for disagreeing would be helpful, if as you say we're all on the same side...

____

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force

 

Why not?

Why wouldn't I include hologram proponents if their goal was the same: an INDEPENDENT and REAL investigation? I can remember a time when the hologram and pod theories were far more popular than CD theories, and back then they pretty much sounded exactly like CD proponents do today. Still, as long as the goal is the same, why wouldn't people work together?

You devoted a lot of space in an attempt to convince me of controlled demolition theory... I'm not sure why. I have no interest in disproving any theories, I'm just talking about the politics of exclusion in the so called 'truth movement' whereas anyone who looks anywhere other than the pre-approved, majority agreed upon 'way it happened' is ostracized, or in some cases, practically crucified.

It just seems rather counter productive to me.

If we ever get a real investigation, would you want the investigators themselves to go in already 'knowing' what happened or with an open mind?

There is a depressing amount of "not getting it" here

and the religious devotion/ Kool Aid analogy is lame in the extreme.

You either believe that it is physically possible for the observed events to have been the result of plane impacts or you do not. You either believe it was physically possible for Atta et al to destroy the Towers, or you do not. You either believe there is enough evidence in the photographic record and elsewhere to answer this question or you don't.

So you're saying that people...

Being frowned upon for not completely believing Controlled Demolition took place at the World Trade Center isn't a fact within this movement? So you're saying that labels such as "LIHOP" and "limited hangout" aren't applied to everything that isn't Controlled Demolition in this movement? So you're saying that people haven't been driven out of this movement because they didn't believe in Controlled Demolition, even though they have contributed good information?

That behavior is what spawned the term, "Church Of Controlled Demolition". That behavior is unacceptable in my opinion.

I'm not arguing with you. I'm voicing concerns.


"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."

Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton

"Controlled demolition"

First, let's distinguish between "controlled demolition" and "they were blown up." CD is a technical term, and while I strongly believe that it is the best theory that has been put forth to explain what happened to 7, I don't care whether it is used in regard to 1 and 2. BUT THEY WERE BLOWN UP. People have grave concerns about other people who refuse to believe their (not) lyin' eyes and acknowledge that the video record shows BUILDINGS BLOWING UP, not falling down.

This is a crucial point, because it shifts the center of gravity of the AGENCY of this whole shebang. If for some reason you do not think the buildings were blown up, you will naturally focus attention on the "hijackings." (Agents = Muslim dudes.) If you acknowledge that the buildings were blown up, your interest will be drawn to the blower-uppers, whoever they may be. (Agents = unknown dudes.)

Whether or not the alleged hijackers did in fact hijack and crash the planes, it is not physically possible that their actions resulted in the destruction of the WTC (unless their actions included sneaking into the buildings and planting explosives before hijacking the planes.) Those of us who worship at the altar of THE BUILDINGS WERE BLOWN UP and its prophet, Steven Jones (peace be upon him), find those who cling to an irrational, implanted belief that THE HIJACKERS COULD HAVE DONE IT to be operating in the space beams/plasmoids realm. Have space beamers been driven out despite other good information?

PS I'm not trying to be inflammatory either.

"Space Beamers"

Are still around in case you hadn't noticed. The individual(s) I know of are not.

I don't think it is analogous to say that people that don't focus on/believe that there were explosives in the building(s) are as crazy as those who dwell in the "space beams/plasmoids realm".

A newcomer for instance. What if they don't believe in Controlled Demolition, or "buildings blowing up?" Should they receive the treatment I described? No.

What about those people who just want a new investigation, and don't theorize about what happened? They are technically part of the movement, but they would be chastized here.

I think that's wrong.


"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."

Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton

I think it is a valid analogy.

And the reason is that there are some parameters we can draw around what is constructive discourse in pursuing 9/11 Truth. Not everything is. Space beam theory isn't. Thinking the WTC was destroyed by "tin darts and lamp oil" is not. (That is different from "not focusing" on explosives.) Thinking that the hijackers are at the middle of this story REALLY is not, because it feeds right into the GWOT.

My problem is not with people "not believing in CD" it is in believing in the physically impossible semi-official explanation.

If the Government...

Somehow funded, managed, or lied about the alleged hijackers' identities, then that is just as incriminating as Controlled Demolition, and does not feed right into the GWOT. To say there were no hijackers means that you forfeit all of the evidence that says there was. Like the audio recordings. They were either fake, staged, or real. No one on this site can tell me which of the three rings true. It's not because everyone is dumb. It's because we don't know.

To say "there is no proof they hijacked anything!" is not the truth.

So if someone believes in the physically impossible semi-official explanation (not me), should they be treated as I described?


"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."

Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton

Actually

I didn't say there were no hijackers. OTOH, I think it's worth reminding people from time to time that while we have a lot of evidence pointing to the creation and maintenance of a patsy cell, we don't know what they were really doing on 9/11.

Funding, managing, and lying about people responsible for destroying the WTC is not the same as destroying the WTC. Beyond the issue of moral culpability, the former scenario plays right into the Islamofascist myth. (They want to kill us! Our government had to help them succeed, but it was their idea!) In turn, that forms the basis for justifying the GWOT -- or, as the Discovery Channel recently put it, "Our children's children's war." Nice.

You're right...

We don't know what roll the hijackers played on 9/11. They may have even been hijackers for all we know.

So you're saying that one has to believe in the Controlled Demolition of the World Trade Center in order to not believe in the myth created by the Government that Muslims are cold blooded killers?

I don't agree. Incidentally, is there a Rep. currently deciding on whether or not to hold hearings on Controlled Demolition? No. There is, however, a Rep. currently deciding on whether or not to hold hearings in regards to Sibel Edmonds. ANOTHER aspect of 9/11 Truth, and a brave whistle-blower to boot. Someone we should support to the BEST of our ability. Even if some people think that supporting her reinforces the myth that Muslims are cold blooded killers. Which it doesn't. Because they're not. No more than whites are cold blooded killers.


"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."

Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton

how is this argument different

Jon, you suggested earlier that debunkers NEVER bring up Sibel Edmonds, as evidence that she must have good info. The logic being I presume that they are afraid to bring her up because they can't debunk her. But now you suggest that the fact that Congress is considering her case to be evidence of her story being important. If the debunkers are so afraid of her, then why is Congress even acknowledging her existence?

Is it your belief that Congress is NOT actively covering up 9/11? They certainly don't acknowledge the existence of building 7, and we KNOW that building was demolished (we know, you suspect). And the debunkers love to explain how building 7 collapsed because two huge buildings collapsed next to it, starting a blazing inferno that weakened the structure. Does that mean that building 7, according to Steven Jones and others the perps "Achilles heel" is not good evidence? I think you're applying your logic selectively in order to support your particular preference for which aspects of 9/11 to promote.

Here's a question--do you happen to know for a fact what the connection between Sibel's info and 9/11 is? It would seem that your promotion of her case on this site indicates that you know her story has some bearing on 9/11--how do you know this, and what exactly does her case have to do with 9/11?

____

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force

 

Um, no...

I did not "suggest that the fact that Congress is considering her case to be evidence of her story being important."

I said we have a Rep. considering having hearings about her, and that we should support her for being the brave whistle-blower that she is. I also pointed out that there is currently NO Rep. considering having hearings about Controlled Demolition. An indication that maybe we should possibly be focusing our efforts to help Sibel maybe? Just maybe?

Hmmm... is it my belief that Congress is NOT actively covering up 9/11? Hmmm... I really have to think about that. Nope, I've been relentlessly pushing 9/11 Truth for 4+ years BECAUSE the media, and the people in Washington D.C. are covering up 9/11.

Steven Jones is extremely convincing which is why I think Building 7 was brought down. I also respect him as an individual.

Sibel's connection to 9/11 is that she testified before the 9/11 Commission for 3 hours because the family members fought for her to be heard. Would you like another connection? We just found out yesterday that the American Turkish Council provided passports for two of the alleged hijackers. Would you like another connection? Sibel found out that in April 2001, an FBI informant told individuals that Bin Laden was planning on attacking cities with planes. In case you forgot, there were supposedly "no warnings". Would you like another connection? Sibel represents several whistle-blowers who were ignored, or turned away by the 9/11 Commission. Would you like another connection? Sibel stumbled across the underworld of our Government that made 9/11 happen.

Of course, because you know exactly what happened on 9/11, you will say that "there is no evidence that Osama Bin Laden was responsible for 9/11. He denied it. Therefore, the warning that she was privy to means absolutely nothing." Of course, for those of us that DON'T KNOW what happened on 9/11, we might think that information about an impending attack could be extremely valuable for those that want to make sure it succeed.


"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."

Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton

" there is currently NO Rep.

" there is currently NO Rep. considering having hearings about Controlled Demolition. An indication that maybe we should possibly be focusing our efforts to help Sibel maybe? Just maybe?"

Or an indication that we should maybe raise awareness about the controlled demolition of the WTC so that we might have some hearings into that? Maybe?

"testified before the 9/11 Commission for 3 hours because the family members fought for her to be heard. "

and you know what it was she said to the commission? no, you don't. i'm sure the families wanted to hear from lots of people--but do the families know exactly what happened on 9/11? No. So what does the fact that they wanted Sibel to testify say about Sibel's testimony with regard to 9/11? Nothing. The families surely wanted to have all sorts of people testify. Even so, I can't find any source that says that Sibel testified because the families asked for that to happen. Care to cite?

Anyway, your last paragraph is telling--and sets you apart from most people in the truth movement. You seem to still think that bin Laden and the hijackers were more than patsies, that they planned these attacks (with KSM, right Jon?), and that despite numerous warnings, nothign was done to stop bin Laden and the hijackers from.... uh huh. I'll quote Sibel's site's timeline here:

A Timeline of Secrecy

SEPT. 11, 2001: Terrorists attack the U.S., killing 3,000 in New York, Washington D.C. and Pennsylvania.

Now, let's be clear--I'm not saying that Sibel's claims are false--I'm just not sure that they have all that much to do with 9/11 as WE know it. In other words, as the fake terror attack concealing the demolition of the WTC.

Her info may well expose some very serious criminality and it would be great if that were so and the people were dealt with and the connections between the ATC, AIPAC, and drug and weapons dealing exposed. Bot this is not the ATCtruth movement. This is not the weapons and drug dealing truth movement. This is the 9/11 truth movement, and what bearing Sibel's testimony has on 9/11 other than implicitly supporting the erroneous belief that hijackers attacked us on 9/11 is still not clear.

However, your determination in pushing this story and astounding level of defensiveness when challenged leads me at least to lean towards the grain of salt approach.

____

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force

 

Here's what's "telling"...

Someone that refers to themselves as a "Real Truther", and a member of the 9/11 Truth Movement should know every single God damned thing Sibel Edmonds, the most gagged person in U.S. History, has ever said, and should know every facet of her case.

Any "Real Truther" that is. Here's your source.

I love how you know what I "still seem to think".

I do not know the level of Osama Bin Laden's involvement in the attacks. Neither do you.

I love how you think you are the authority on "most people in the truth movement". That's classic.


"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."

Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton

OK, stop it right there!

We've had enough of this already. Jon, stick up for Sibel; RT, stick up for CD -- as long as both these efforts do not hinder our progress, there's no reason for these petty squabbles.

Show "You mean..." by Jon Gold

Yes, it is time to move on

Yes, it is time to move on folks. If you want to argue the rest of the day please take it elsewhere.

Bingo!!

But you argue with the High Priests of Thermitus, and you are banished to the blackest pits of moltenville.

Get with it people, documented evidence and testimonies carry more weight with those that we need to reach out to than anyone shouting "THE SQUIBS ARE CLEARLY NOTICABLE BELOW THE IMPACT ZONE!" and things like that.

All you have to do is give someone a Press for Truth CD and say "Here is a DVD made by 911 Victims' family members that suggest the 9/11 Commission has covered up the truth".

Once we all do that, it's game over.

/////////////////////
911dvds@gmail.com - $1 DVDs shipped - email for info

Controlled Demo

CD theory isn't a religion or anything like that, its proof that the towers and building 7 came down in a CD. The CD theory is a perfect starting point for showing people that something is wrong with 9/11. All you have to do is use some common sense to realize that fire couldn't of brought the buildings down. More people need to be exposed to the CD theory, and then they can take it from there.
"Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories concerning the attacks of September the 11th; malicious lies that attempt to shift the blame away from the terrorists, themselves, away from the guilty."

— George W. Bush, United Nations, Novemb

It is not Kool-aid...

...it is the most logical explanaion for the EXPLOSIONS we can see as the towers fall that have NOTHING to do with impacting aircraft.

Perhaps you have another name for exposives planted in a bulding that cause the building to collapse?

I would say people who can't see explosions involved as the buildings fall are still stuggling with their cognative disonance. While we should not alienate them, lying about what we see is NOT an option.

If the CD crowd IS looking like an intolerant religon, it is perhaps for the same reason science appears "intolerant" if you believe in "Intelligent Design".

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

Perfectly put!

If the CD crowd IS looking like an intolerant religon, it is perhaps for the same reason science appears "intolerant" if you believe in "Intelligent Design".

100 points for Jenny!

Oh, boy! What will I do with them?

Can I trade them in for 911Blogger merchandise?

;-)

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

Uhm...

I could say they were only a loan, and that by now you owe me at least 103 points. But I'm not like that...

So what, then? Hm. You will get 100 points for your future posts from me, if you keep it up, kay? And go a little easier on the trolls, I start to pity them.

^_^

"Intelligent design"

I was going to make EXACTLY the same analogy, except I decided it sounded too mean. Mwahahaha.

"Perhaps you have another name for exposives planted in a bulding that cause the building to collapse?

I would say people who can't see explosions involved as the buildings fall are still stuggling with their cognative disonance. While we should not alienate them, lying about what we see is NOT an option. "

So very well put.

This is proof that cass. is

This is proof that cass. is much nicer than Jenny--but everyone knew that!

Actually, I don't think it's mean, though it could be. Depends on delivery. I TRY to reserve my meaness for the trolls.

Hey, did everyone catch that "Raven" is probably a sock-puppet of Mark Roberts? That's my irresponsible rumor of the day.

;-)

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

Raven? To funny...LMAO

Ronnie Wieck is writing the "satire" for that sock puppet. Just something that I irresponsibly heard made up, Col. Sparks. ;-D

The master class has always declared the wars; the subject class has always fought the battles.

brava, brava, bravissima!

you see, colonel, when it comes to 9/11, we can't trust our eyes, or the testimony of people so close to the action that day. Explosions in the building? Hmmm, got any proof other than the many video tapes and that silly janitor's story? It's clearly all bunkum, since the debunkers did not ignore it. In fact, Jon's list of Sibel debunking quotes is quite similar to the debunkers' treatment of Willie--he wants to be famous, he's so hot, etc... :)

We not only know there were explosions, we know that the explosiions were timed to coincide with the plane impacts. The first plane hits as the basement blows up, and when the second plane hits we can SEE the black smoke puf out of the North Tower from an explosion right in the impact zone. This is not only fairly conclusive proof that explosions were used, but that they were cleverly disguised AND intended to give the impression that the planes were solely responsible. The crime and the coverup all in one!

If this is worshipping at the altar of anything it is logic and deduction. Thank you for the excellent and succinct points above.

____

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force

 

hype

We will see....when Shayler was making the rounds
he was thought to be an incredible inside source that grew a conscious and was desperately trying to get out "state secret" information, later to realize he was either a plant or a dillusional. I don't think Ms, edmonds is dillusional , yet, but I didn't think that of Shayler 18 months ago either.

I hope she is legit and starts the momentum going in the right direction in the court of public opinion, if not a home run, a solid double up the middle would be nice. But I personally I smell a trap, call me jaded, if ya like.

nothing wrong with being skeptical

if we weren't we wouldn't be here. I see no problem reconciling hope that Sibel is legit with caution--EXACTLY for the reasons you describe, ww. Shayler was a classic honeypot. Sibel is halfway there already--she's a honey! Stay tuned! I hope very much she's legit but again--we will see!

____

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force

 

Well this is how it should be approached

For one, We can agree that the 9/11 Commissions' Final Report has holes in it..many things were omitted and also distorted. So logically You ask why. Unless, You are one who trusts the government completely and just continue on with Your life as before, except with a flag by the front door, a sticker on the car, a ribbon supporting the troops, or whatever patriotic red, white, and blue icon image there is to show "positive" support...for war. War waged with full mobilisation against one dwelling in a cave. Before that began to sound ridiculous to a whole mass of people, there had to be another, more sinister connection. Saddam Hussein now enters the picture with WMD's,and having alleged Al-Queda ties. An investigation into 9/11 has not even started yet, but the Psy-op attained it's goal and those who stood to profit from the impending destruction were right in line. Questions began to pop up, right about the same time truth sites appeared everywhere on the net. Loose Change is the most hammered on by defenders of the "official" story,
but it is also , by far, the most popular. Sibel Edmonds is the most "gagged" woman associated with 9/11, but rarely is she mentioned, anywhere. I agree with Jon Gold about the CD, but WTC's 1, 2, and 7 did something I had never seen previously, even though I have watched many building implosions before. I also agree with RT about pinning all hopes in one corner and keeping a skeptical eye. But if Sibel turns out to be nothing much to move things forward, then it is not a huge loss, there are still many other avenues to take. Having good debate on this is not a problem, on some things We can agree to disagree and still remain with our eyes on the prize. My two cents; I can agree on both of Your points of view because they make sense and caution is something We should keep at all times. Hope is the other; I hope Sibel has many things that slam the regime and eventually expose many rats, but I am keeping Myself cautiously optimistic.

The master class has always declared the wars; the subject class has always fought the battles.

more baseball analogies...(yawn...)

"if not a home run, a solid double up the middle would be nice."
hey, a double up the middle is extremely rare. she'd either have to be incredibly fast, like vince coleman in '87, or smash a line drive over the center fielder's head (not typically referred to as 'up the middle'). i'm guessing it may be closer to a walk with the bases loaded, driving in a run and keeping the inning alive.

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you."Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil 89 (1886).
http://anti-neocons.com/

deconstructing Sibel

"so not only do these guys have Israel in common, they have Turkey in common"

That's Sibel in the interview on dKos. Kind of sounds like she's saying--uhhh, sure these guys are all Israel-firsters, but they also conspire on Turkey-related stuff! LOOK AT TURKEY! LOOK AT TURKEY!

For what it's worth, this seems to not just shift the focus to Turkey away from Israel, but the LIHOPpy implications of some of her allegations also shift the focus away from the controlled demolition of the twin towers, where most people were killed that day, and that also introduces Lucky Larry of the weekly chats with Netanyahu.

But maybe Lucky Larry doesn't have enough Turkey ties?

____

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force

 

For the record...

Peter: Luke, as you look at this, some of the information that Sibel would probably provide in a public hearing if Henry Waxman follows through on his commitment, would challenge the official stories about what occurred in the attacks of September 11, 2001. And this gets into a whole difficult area, it is truly a Pandora’s box, just last night over dinner, talking with some very well-informed friends, I was trying to make the case about the serious questions about Building 7 at the WTC - which of course, came down well after the other two, late in the afternoon of Sep11 and we now have this stunning video from the BBC of a real-time report, at the point when WTC7 did come down, approximately 5.25pm. The problem we have is the BBC report precedes the event that it's reporting on by about 23 minutes, and there's a stunning shot of a reporter who is doing a 'stand-up,' as they call it, appears to be several miles away from the WTC site, but WTC7 is still clearly visible over her shoulder, in the background of this framed picture, as she is describing in the past tense, that WTC7 has come down! And there are many Americans who simply cannot process this, because it leads to questions about government complicity, advanced knowledge, of what occurred on 911.

Luke: Right - well, as far as I know, Sibel can't talk to anything that happened with WTC7 (Ed Note: I actually said, incorrectly, "Sibel can't talk to anything that happened with 911") but a lot of the information that she has does relate to 911 - the covering up of related information both before and after 911. I'll give you an example of 'before' - in April 2001 there was an event, an interrogation, where one of the FBI's longstanding informants told them that 'Osama bin Laden is going to attack the US with planes, 4 or 5 cities, in a few months, and the hijackers are all in place' (ed note: correction: only 'some' of the hijackers were in place). I don't think that many Americans know that they had such a specific warning, and one of the reasons they don't know is because that particular piece of information didn't surface in the 911 Commission report in their "Missed Opportunities" section - which I think is outrageous. There are some other things that Sibel knows about 911 that didn't make the report, for example, some of the people that she listened to on the wiretaps, I think it was the ATC but I'm not sure, organized passports (ed note: that should be visas) for at least two of the hijackers. So this information has been available, but again, didn't make it into the report. So the big question that Sibel has, if I can put words into her mouth, is 'Why on earth are they covering up all of this information?'

Peter: Sibel, what would you like to say at this juncture, please?

Sibel: Well, actually Luke did a great job. But that's one of the things that I've been trying to convey, and that is that there are so many different pieces of 911 that have been either covered up or classified and not everyone has access to everything. And I know about certain events and certain issues and certain pieces, others have their own area - and what I tell people is 'just take a look at the picture in general' - I mean, we still have that CIA report on 911 completely classified, peter. Here we are more than 5 years after 911 and the IG, so-called 'independent' IG, after years of investigation and questioning people and reviewing documents, they issued this report on 911: what the CIA knew, what they did, and the entire report is classified, and then you have the Phoenix Memo, and Colleen Rowley's piece, and Robert Wright in Chicago that had to do with Yassin al-Qadi, and then you have what Luke Ryland just referred to which is this documented incident which was given by a credible informant, and there are these forms, 302 forms, that the agents have to file after they get information from their informants, from their undercover informants, and they filed these 302 forms, they were not destroyed, they are still there in the FBI, and these agents reported these issues, and they gave the 911 Commission these 302 forms, yet it did not make it into the report. And in another case it had to do with certain translations of information of blueprints of these skyscrapers being sent to a certain region on the border of Pakistan and Iran, and this occurred in July 2001. I don't have any information, any idea about the buildings, World Trade Centre and WTC7, because that was not my area, again, my information was limited to what I’m reading, and that is basically the same thing that you are reading, but the other information, and the other pieces that I have first hand direct knowledge of, I have already documented that, I have already given it in a public letter to the 911 Commission, after they issued their quasi-report, and before that report was issued I testified inside the SCIF, I provided them with file numbers, I provided them with the names of the agents who would corroborate this information. Not only that, I drove some of these translators and agents who are not whistleblowers, they are not known individuals, to the Commissioners - and this was with the help I received from the 911 family members, and they testified inside the SCIF, these are the veteran agents involved in the counter-terrorism division of the Washington Field Office, and the headquarters. SO the question is 'What happened to all this information? Why are they going out of their way to cover it?"


"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."

Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton