Steel Launch Pad

Last night while watching the news, they showed a clip of the Shuttle lifting off. As I watched, I noticed the flames of the lift off were directly hitting the launch area. My question to anyone out there with any knowledge about steel melting in intense heat is, since the 9/11 commission says that the Twin Towers came down due to the fact the jet fuel weakened the steel beams, shouldn't the launch sites metal towers be ruined also from the launch itself? I'm no expert at any of this stuff but it looked to me as if the flames from the shuttle hit that launch area longer than the jet fuel from the Twin Towers. Also, I don't know if that launch area is made of other material other than steel so it won't be damaged by that intense heat from the lift offs. Please, what do y'all think?

the space shuttle

main engines are ignited in a chemical reaction between liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen, the temperature at the exhaust cones is around 5000F. The design of the engine cones prevents the cones themselves from melting. The liquid hydrogen is actually pumped thru the cone bodies, super cooling them, then it flows out and is mixed at the top of the cones, where the chemical reaction takes place, and exits down the cones. This flow system prevents the cones/exhausts from melting from the heat. Regarding the lauch platform, iirc, there is a deep cement well that is filled with water directly below the exhausts. The immense heat is disipated as it flows down into the well, and the water, which produces to big billowy plumes of steam and vapor. The structural steel portions of the tower doesnt come in contact with heat hot enough to melt or weaken the structure. Much like the WTC towers never came in contact with enough heat to melt or weaken the structural steel.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Physics/Science/Mathematics do not lie, only people do.
9/11 was an INSIDE JOB

A good example of non-melting,

yes -- and cattlerustler is correct that wicking the heat away is what prevents the melting from occuring. (Called 'heat transport' in physics.) Certainly the steel structure of the Towers will transport localized heating away -- one of the main weaknesses in the NIST story (as I and numerous others now have pointed out).

Thanks for the good example people are familiar with, 1FZFAN.

Reply to Prof Jones

Wow!! I am honored to get a reply from you Prof. Jones. You are a great American patriot & have inspired me to ask questions about 9/11. As you had quoted in the film, "9/11: Birth of Treason", out of the Bible, in the Book of Matthew, Chapter 24, verse 4, "Jesus answered "Watch out that no one deceives you....." really hit hom with me! As you read on in that same Chapter, Verse 12, "Because of the increase of wickedness, the LOVE of MOST will grow cold....."! While going to Bible College, that verse really shook me to the core due to the fact that's what has been going on for years. Keep fighting the good fight Prof. Jones, & know that there are many people joining you on this quest for TRUTH & JUSTICE!! Again, thank you so much for responding to my question, as well as everybody else who responded!! Let's keep this mother rollin'!

Reply To Cattle Rustler

Well, so much for this theory! But dude, you are the man with knowledge beyond what I expected. Thank God, (or anything else you believe in or don't), you're on the side of truth!! Also, thanks for your prompt reply to my question.

youre welcome and

glad to have helped. And thanks to prof Jones for the follow-up information :)

I just happened to have seen a show about the shuttle a couple of weeks ago, and it went into great detail regarding the shuttle's propulsion system. So picture my shock when I hear them say "the exhaust leaving the shuttle's exhaust cones is 5000F" I nearly choked on my chocolate chip cookie. Like you, I thought "What!! The shuttle would melt and explode! The steel launch tower would be vaporized!" But the narrator's next few sentences went on to explain what I explained above. So when I saw your question I had the info to be able to pass along :)

cheers and good luck to everyone

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Physics/Science/Mathematics do not lie, only people do.
9/11 was an INSIDE JOB

Heat, steel pyrometry (color temps), conduction, and ceramics

Hello CattleRustler,

I've worked for 2 different aerospace facilities, and I recall there being some pretty exotic ceramics and ceramic coatings being used on propulsion nozzles (although I primarily worked on the relatively "blacker" payload and sensor areas for USAF, NRO, NRL, NASA, and other "intelligence" defense contracts and contractors). Tantalum, tungsten, carbon, and many ceramics will withstand extremely high temperatures- higher than titanium which melts at 3037F or 1670C (steel m.p. around 2505 F or 1375C depending on the alloy). Regardless, 5000F [2760C or 3033K] is some intense heat- you could move into plasmas above there. I couldn't say for sure if the steel launch facilities have ceramic coatings though- maybe NASA's website has (or once had) some information here. I am unaware of any replacement or maintenance of launch tower structures (which I would think is "average" structural steel from a cost efficiency standpoint), either frequent or infrequent. I am reasonably certain that a very high temperature coating or paint will need to be applied to the tower structure immediately after a launch (mainly due to marine air corrosion affects in CA TX and FL).

I'd tend to think that solid propellant boosters like ATK/Thiokol makes burn much hotter than (extremely inefficient orange-black) jet fuel explosions in air, but I haven't taken quite as much chemistry and physics as Dr. Jones (I only hold a B.Sc. in physics from the University of Utah, a "rival" school to Dr. Jones' previous employer). There are also the issues of thermal mass, heat flux, energy impulse specifics, thermal coupling efficiency of flame to steel beams, etc-- but that would probably be an extended conversation for Dr. Jones and me to have off-topic someday, and it would likely require finite element analysis, a HEALTHY computer, and much data that was likely never recorded and does not appear to now be shared by NIST and the other "powers that be"... I also got the unmistakable impression of a very brief solid rocket propellant missile "plume" in the relatively poor-quality clip immediately before the North Tower was hit in both "Loose Change" and "911 In Plane Site" DVDs, but I just watched them briefly again recently (but I have seen quite a bit of military missile test and rocket launch video and I was trained in DOD test methodology for aerospace systems). My personal opinion is that a missile launch is UNMISTAKABLE in the much-better-quality 4 independent South Tower impact clips in the same DVDs. I'm willing to share my resume with Dr. Jones for verification (but I guard my privacy to an EXTREME level after working in the aerospace industry and do not wish to make it public knowledge).

My extensive welding and plasma-cutting experience (over 2/3 of my lifetime) leads me to want to share the following link:

http://www.blksmth.com/heat_colors.htm

I do know that both structural and stainless steels are relatively poor conductors of heat (anyone who has welded both steel and aluminum can attest to this fact firsthand, and they just might have some scars to show from the aluminum experience).

Now if you'll dig out your WTC molten metal photos and clips, even a layperson should be able to fairly accurately estimate the steel temperatures at "ground zero". This is the principle I once used to measure X-ray tube targets with a non-contact optical pyrometer by matching the pyrometer's filament color to the X-ray target.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrometer

One word of caution- there are 2 sets of steel "color" charts- one lower temperature set for tempering steel tools, and the above link for foundry/cutting/welding steel and iron.

It certainly looks like AT LEAST thermite or thermate usage to me with hot spots 8 days later (or into December 2001 or February 2002 depending who you believe), but I still haven't reconciled the elevated tritium levels and "horseshoed" steel beams yet...

http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=542&parent=506

http://www.llnl.gov/tid/lof/documents/pdf/241096.pdf

http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/07/03/05/ward.htm

See the following links for more interesting points of view from Dr. Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl, a Civil Engineering professor who doesn't buy the "official" theory:

http://thewebfairy.com/nerdcities/WTC/wtc-demolition.htm

Testimony of Dr. Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl. Professor, Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering University of California, Berkeley before the Committee on Science of the U.S. House of Representatives, April, 2002. (broken links everywhere I looked- try to find a copy of this one)

http://thewebfairy.com/nerdcities/WTC/wtc-microsoft.htm

I just wanted to relay these links to the other Truthers out there and wish them well in their investigations- there is now a pile of disinformation taller than the Towers once stood, I'd say (and that might only include the 911 Commission and NIST reports).

dMole

P.S. The most important think to remember is "cui bono" (who benefits)- I'd say it's the Bush Neo-con PNAC "Northwoods" regime and Bush family, Halliburton, the Carlyle Group, Larry Silverstein, possibly Israel after Saddam Hussein was executed (no, I'm not anti-Semitic, just honest), pro-"Police State/Martial Law" globalist enemies of the U.S. Constitution (see various newly-re-classified Presidential Executive Orders going back to Reagan, NSPD51, HSPD20, Rex84, and FEMA camps), and the defense industry that I used to be part of now that we have hindsight looking back to WTC/911 and the Invasion(s) of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Reply to dMole

Man 'o man, thank you very much for your in-depth reply to my question! I have a ton of stuff to read to educate myself! Keep up the awesome work you're doing & thanks for all your years in working with steel for those companies.

Nice

Very useful information if verifiable. Not something i would present to the beginner, but useful none the less.