"The Floor Is Yours, Truthers" on Amazon.com

Hi all,

First off, this Steve Farrell guy is a 'dedicated' skeptic, but without the hate of the SLC and JREF crowd. However, in previous threads he's said such as things as "Hani Hanjour's poor flying skills aren't evidence of anything, kameelyun." He has also rigorously defended NORAD's 'incompetence,' as well as waving away all of the controlled demolition evidence. He has handwaved away Dutch demolitionist Danny Jowenko. He has even waved away the fact that a phone call to Controlled Demolition revealed that "pull it" IS a demolition term. So I'm a bit weary about how productive the thread would actually be... Should we take this guy's bait or not? There are those here who are more knowledgeable than I, and have read more books. (I still have yet to read Ruppert or Tarpley because those books are so huge.)

Having said all that, here's how Steve opens this new thread:

"All the attention so far has been paid to the flaws in the official theory of 9/11, the Al Qaeda hijacker scenario. But any alternative theory has to stand on its own. What if we abandoned the conventional scenario for good? What should we believe actually happened on 9/11?

This is a challenge for the truthers here. *Give us the alternative theory and present the evidence that supports it.* I'm not looking for ad hominems. I'm not looking for problems with the official theory. I'm looking for a coherent, verifiable, detailed scenario that explains the anomalies you point out in the official account. I want to examine how comprehensive, plausible, and well-supported any alternative theory is, and how well it holds up under rational, objective scrutiny.

The floor is yours, truthers."

Most of us probably have an Amazon account, no? I wish more 9/11 truthers would show up there. Remember once again though, this guy's a pretty hard-nosed 'debunker,' though admittedly he does lack the flat-out hatred of the truth movement as exhibited on SLC and JREF.

Amazon Thread


The challenge is ridiculous. There has not been a comprehensive investigation. You are inviting bat shit theories that will be used as ammo against 9/11 Truth.

It's not our job to come up with theories we have no way of verifying, not access to investigate, and no resources to pursue.

Can't Stop 9/11 Fever

How about he read those books for a starter

9/11 Synthetic Terror: Made in the USA
Crossing the Rubicon
The War on Truth

It should give him good hints at alternative theories and more plausible scenario than the Official Conspiracy Theory.

There was a time

when I was into arguing with trolls/shills/disinfo/neomockingbirds when I realized that few actual seekers of knowledge (pro or con) actually participated. The government's conspiracy theory has been very well 'debunked' over and over again. The folks like Farrell who continually beat the dead government supporting horse are of no interest to me and they actually are of no matter. I have often viewed one real purpose of presence of disinfo shills to be (or whatever you wish to call them) to distract truthers into meaningless, endless ... and tedious arguments on the web so that actual activism (going out and talking with people, neighbors, associates, or creating materials like movies etc., ) would be minimized. That is where I choose to spend most of the little free time I have. Because the more people I can bring into the overall truth movement (and I don't just mean 9/11) the more they will bring in, and the more of us to confront the government. Farrell is nothing.

"There are none so hoplessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free." (Goethe)

Debunking the Debunkers

Is no doubt a tiring exercise.

The best strategy is not to offer theory or speculation, but to give actual statements on the record that contradict the official story. For example, the entire NORAD stand-down is embarrassingly documented by David Ray Griffin:

The 9/11 Commission's Incredible Tales Flights 11, 175, 77, and 93

He has similarly exposed the 9/11 commission report as a completely fraud

The 9/11 Commission Report: A 571-Page Lie

Even Dick Cheney admitted on National TV, that the FAA has an "arrangement with the secret service", and that Laura Brown not only CONFIRMED this statement, but that ALL of the flights of interest were being tracked. So just how did they hit their targets without interception if they were being tracked by the FAA and no doubt--superior NORAD radar?

You can extensively quote the building designers, who built the WTC towers to survive plane crashes (and conservation of momentum):

The World Trade Center Building Designers: Pre-9/11 claims strongly implicate that the Towers should have remained standing on 9/11

I agree with a previous poster. There are many facts that prove 9/11 was an inside job are easily available/non-speculative/non-misinformation and are not debatable. Only the speculations for what could have happened, what might have happened are debatable and a waste of time to debate with a debunker.

Tarpley's treatment of 9/11 while I find compelling, is somewhat more speculative and is therefore open to debate/debunking. His thesis of state-sponsored terrorism is compelling because he uses previous documented examples, but I don't agree with all of his interpretations.

“We're an empire now, and when we act we create our own reality."


Thanks for sharing/posting for those who would rather shed light and know rather than ignore/forget because ignorance and darkness can fester.

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My Floor time @ Amazon.com

Part 1
Before presenting evidence and theory, it must be said that the fact we are even having this conversation almost 6 years after the biggest official crime in US history is proof that something is wrong, and I dont think it is we da 'troofers' and our wacky conpiracy theories. The administration's eagerness to not investigate this massive crime against Americans and humanity in general as evidenced by the fact that it was well over a year before an investigation commenced is striking. Remember, after the Titanic sank, after the attack on Pearl Harbor, after the murder of JFK (another state-sponsored false-flag op btw) and after the Challenger disaster, we had official investigations within a week and a half. But with the event that "changed everything" we wouldn't have even had an investigation without the passion for Justice (still unfulfilled) of family members.

Once we had an investigation, Bush desired to fund it to the tune of $3 million, about what was probably spent on the stained blue dress itself. Then it was bumped up to almost $9 million and was set to roll with Kissinger to discover the whole truth and nothing but the truth. But then too much sensitive clientele not from Saudi Arabia with Bin Laden surnames and it was onto professional public myth-maker, co-author with Ms. Rice, administration insider Zelikow. Then there was no serious discussion of the 15 some wargames (many of which were mimetic off the days events and probably the largest confluence in US history), the exact institutional nature of the put-options, the motives of the anthrax attackers who targeted leading potential political opposition (Daschle and Leahy) and and journalists (Brokaw), the clear controlled demoltion signature of WTC 7 (about which you can check out Dan Rather's (day of) and Danny Jowenko's (years later) immediate reactions), Cheney's clear lies about timing (from Mineta's excluded testimony and Clarke's book (which also mentions a live-hijack drill wargame (Vigilant Warior/Guardian))). Ok enough with the parentheses.

The clear evidence of intention to cover-up is treason and complicity after the fact in mass murder (yes Patriot Actors, I said it like the proud American I am). This should be enough to start treason trials as it is so we can actually have Cheney testify in public under oath about something as simple as when he was in the bunker and what order he gave the young man who asked "Do the orders still stand?" right before a flying object slammed into the Pentagon through some of the most well-defended airspace in the world. We the 9-11 truth and Justice movement have done incredible investigative work on almost no budget through a series of underground books, internet dialogue, DVD's/google/youtube videos.

Part 2

Ok now some more evidence and where it might point to. It is ridiculous to ask a grassrooots movement to completely piece together what is probably the largest and most complex conspiracy in history. But if you prove Allen Dulles' assertion that "The American people don't read" wrong by taking even a gander at the writings of Griffin, Tarpley, Zwicker, Ruppert, Ahmed, P.D. Scott et al, I'd say you have a pretty good foundation from which to theorize about the what J Edgar Hoover would have called "a conspiracy so monstrous [you] cannot believe it exists."
That being said, asking certain provocative, rhetorical questions will point us in the proper theoretical direction. So, let's play "Which Jihadi?"

Which Al-Qaeda Jihadi do you think planned the 15 some congruent war games and/or civilian exercises on 9-11 which confused and paralyzed our defense systems, one of which (the National Reconnaisance Office) had a plane flying into their building and another of which (Vigilant Warrior/Guardian) run by JC's of Staff and NORAD) was a live-fly hijack drill w/ a real airliner and blips inserted on radar screens?

Which member of Al-Qaeda in Europe do you think helped architect the 3 exercises that were running on 7-7-05 in London, one of which (Visor Consultants) almost exactly mimicked what actually transpired that tragic day?--although not about 9-11, this question shows the reapatable MO's

Which Islamo-fascist had the means and/or the motive to attack some of the leading critics/investigators into 9-11 and the Patriot Act, Tom Daschle (told strongly by Cheney to not investigate 9-11 too deeply during a time of war), Patrick Leahy (Judiciary Committee) and Tom Brokaw with anthrax spores likely from a US weapons lab?

Which Muslim zealot do you think had the access necessary to plant the massive amount of explosives in WTC buildings 1,2 and 7 needed in order for the laws of the physical universe as we've known it for our species limited time on this planet to have not been suspended that day? This includes the undeniable evidence that thousands and thousands of tons of concrete in the towers were pulverized into very fine dust clouds of massive volume (which look like the highly energized 'clouds' of pyroclastic flow), steel columns that were thrown with violent force horizontally hundreds of feet, some impaling themselves like spears into buildings more than a football field away, in what was called a fire-induced, gravity-driven "collapse."

But the naked eye, even, or especially of a child, can see that the trade towers didn't "collapse." They were collapsed, blown to smithereens and Kingdom Come, with the floors below the sections supposedly initiating the "collapse" being blown out, so that the almost free-fall speed destruction sequence through well over 50 concrete floors and down and around 47 steel core columns (which should have still been standing if the floors had collapsed) could have been possible. And the molten metal in the pile for weeks afterwards? And the cars, blocks away, flipped over with their engine blocks energized and blown? And the explosion in the basement that 20-year janitor and White House proclaimed hero of that day Willie Rodriguez heard right BEFORE the plane hit?

Do I know exactly which rogue, criminal members of the CIA, FBI, NSA, Pentagon, MI6, Mossad, ISI played a role in this? No, though for the operation to have been successful, the moles have to be in many different locations in our government, up and through the White House. Do i know exactly what transpired on the hijacked planes, which exact technology was used to remotely commandeer the plane and where the control center(s) were? No, though Dov Zakhiem might know, and building 7 had some interesting offices in it (DOD, CIA, SS, IRS, SEC (Enron, Worldcom papers gone was a great serendipitous bonus). Do I know exactly who planted the massive explosives in the 3 buildings that were demolished that day, and when and how they did it exactly? No, though you should see who might have had the motive to get rid of John Oneil, and who has been involved with Stratasec and Kroll. Do I know exactly which mix of explosives were used? No, though super thermite appears to be a clear element and there are pieces of evidence that point to even higher explosives, even possibly micro-nukes (just a theory to help explain some evidence, don't jump on me as a disinfo artist). Do I know who deserves these answers? Yes, all of us, especially the families of the people killed that day and in the wars based on lies up and through the massacres happening today in Iraq. Do I think we will ever know all the answers while the honest investigation of the truth has to persist mainly on the internet, rather than in a courtroom with bibles and oaths and exhibits and testimonies broadcast around the world on CSPAN? No, though we've done pretty good for some conspiracy nuts. Do I know who will force the truth out into the open in order to do justice to it and get on to proposing policy items such as "Permaculturalizing the Pentagon"? Yes, We the People.

“Strange times are these in which we live when old and young are taught in falsehoods school. And the one man that dares to tell the truth is called at once a lunatic and fool.” –Plato

"We must speak the truth about terror." --George W. Bush