Stop Pushing Zeitheist

I think we're all on the same game plan here......and that's not to support the NWO with the one world government and one world religion agenda their carrying out via 9/11 and the resulting global war. So why do I read plugs for zeitheist in the comments of almost every topic? Did everyone become history buffs and confirm the information?...was it packaged well and sounded right at the time?

I have no idea...and that's why I'm writing this.

yes, zeitheist.... it's a heist of many hungry minds away from truth with the use of a dusty old cracker.

I found a comment from a fellow in the concen forum that sums it up pretty well.

"People should beware that the first part of this film addresses religion & faith. It attacks Christianity by explaining it from the Gnostic aspect, then compares it with other religions to find similarities, & incorrectly conclude fault. The Creation-Order from God, is also attacked by association.

The last section then goes on to espouse racial dilution & inter love as the solution of the age. The problem in this is the same result One World Government has in plan. A World without identity in race. A world without soul, but for the product. A people that will easily be controlled & herded, especially the secret Priest race.

Don't be fooled by propaganda! If the result is the same then the message is flawed! Don't allow the lies to be taught from the Gnostic's."

I don't think we're short on 9/11 truth movies....maybe folks should be pumping those instead???

And I don't want to hear any anti-religious comments wasn't me who made the movie or me who is promoting it...

Here is a local activist and historian who took some time to write up a little history for reference....enjoy :)

This is a ridiculous film to rally behind

Focus, people. Focus.

So why is this comment rated down?

It is a ridiculous movie to rally around--for 9/11 Truth. It may be a good film, but it's not a good 9/11 film.

Oh, and I've voted sim's comment up--for what that's worth. ;-)

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

because it's not a "ridiculous movie" to rally around

It is truthful and does a fine job of showing how gullible human beings are to utterly absurd BS just because authority figures spew it.
It is easily in the top 3 of 9/11 films.

Sorry, must disagree

Being a good film DOES NOT make it a good 9/11 film.

And most of what that film says, whatever the topic, has been said BETTER by other people ages ago.

We'll just agree to disagree, how's that? ;-)

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

doesn't make it bad nor "ridiculous" either

in fact how many 9/11 films have had this much discussion & exposure given to them? Loose Change is about it.
That alone makes it a good 9/11 film.
Granted "The God who wasn't there" may have been a bit better than part one, 9/11 Mysteries may have been a bit better than Part 2, and The Money Masters was better than part 3, all true but none of those combined all 3 to make the valid point of what Zeitgeist is all about.

"Being a good film DOES NOT make it a good 9/11 film."

Thanks, Col.

I should have been more specific. I am not expressing an opinion of the film's wide ranging thesis. I am saying the "wide ranging thesis" itself is problematic for 9/11 Truth.

I happen to agree with the comparative literature/cultural anthropology approach to Christianity, but I would never raise this topic while discussing 9/11.

This film should be seen as

This film should be seen as a work of art, and in that capacity, I think it provides first-rate material for 9/11 Truth. Maybe "rallying around" is the wrong choice of words--how about "appreciation" for what is clearly a fine work of political art? I have gotten more positive feedback from friends on this film than for any other 9/11 film I have suggested. Great art often shocks and disturbs the audience. For many years (decades), the US has had almost no strong political art--Zeitgeist does much to fix that. I hope we see many more films of this caliber. As a long-time "member" of the 9/11 Truth movement, I have nothing but praise for the very talented artist that made Zeitgeist.

JFK on secrecy and the press


"The last section then goes on to espouse racial dilution & inter love as the solution of the age. "

Recall the scene in " O Brother, Whereart Thou? " where that weasley Senate candidate in Mississippi screams "MISCEGENATION! "

We're all in the same genetic boat, bubba.

"The last section then goes

"The last section then goes on to espouse racial dilution & inter love as the solution of the age. The problem in this is the same result One World Government has in plan. A World without identity in race. A world without soul, but for the product. A people that will easily be controlled & herded, especially the secret Priest race."

I disagree with this. What I find most valuable in Zeitgeist is that it explains the role of mythology in society and applies it to modern events and the current "Spirit of the Age". I would give you a link to Joseph Campbell's "The Hero's Journey" and recommend that you watch it, but it was taken off of Google video. Try to get it on torrent though. I think a lot of what Zeitgeist is about comes from Joseph Campbell style interpretations, which I find very valuable and insightful. The world of myth is the world of soul.

"Those who know the truth, but use the myth for the social manipulation..." - Paraphrase from Zeitgeist

This is completely true. What we have to realize is that we can take history into our own hands by taking action in the Infowar. The 9/11 truth meme and the freedom meme are both getting more popular by the day. We are starting to understand things for ourselves, and not be dependent on the flickering box for our understanding of reality. We are now taking the story of society into our own hands. We are the preist class you speak of. We are the all seeing eye. This is what I think the ending is about. "It is a choice right now, between fear, and love." and "The Revolution is Now".

As for the facts presented in the first segment of the movie, I do hope that there is debate about the historical truths asserted, as inaccuracies would certainly tarnish the legitimacy of the movie as a whole. However, I also feel very strongly that it is not extremely important for all of those facts to be true or not, for the message of the movie to still be very powerful and truthful. Even if Horus didn't exactly do this or that, and Jesus did, or if Jesus was a real person, are not the point of the message for me. (And perhaps, if I had made this movie, I would have presented the case a bit differently.)

But the guy who made this movie made it how he did. In life, I try to take positive things from other people, add what knowledge I have, and work with other people so we can improve each other's understandings of the world. I think Zeitgeist has had an extremely positive impact on many people, as it exposes in a very straightforward manner the power systems surrounding us, and gives people an opportunity to let some color into their lives.

Making an effective argument about 9/11

requires reducing the evidence to relevant details only, and something like Zeitgeist requires that people believe a hundred other things unrelated to 9/11.

For example, I may believe that the Warren Commission was a fraud, but if I ask someone else to believe not only that the official story of 9/11 is a fraud but also that the Warren Commission is a fraud, I am making it more difficult, not less difficult, for that person to embrace the main argument (that the 9/11 Commission Report is a fraud). Zeitgeist introduces many such diversions. Skeptics of 9/11 Truth will simply attack the diversions in the film, instead of focusing on 9/11 evidence. That's my basic problem with endorsing this film.

You apparently don't have the slightest idea

of what you are talking about, there is nothing in Zeitgeist that is incorrect that I have seen in all 3 parts.
Since you only have a problem with part one then I can assume that you are the usual delusional Christian that refuses to accept Archaeological fact.
Zeitgeist does a great job of connecting how so many seemingly intelligent people can be so easily fooled and then defend the utterly indefensible.

People that ignorantly defend the Official Conspiracy Theory to me are no different than those that ignorantly defend Creationism against Evolution, it is blind obedience to pure fantasy based solely on faith.

I have researched religion for over 30+ years and everything in Zeitgeist can be proven with documented Archaeological evidence.

The so called "local activist & historian" you linked to did not disprove anything BTW and in fact merely misinterpreted some of what he saw in Zeitgeist.
Christianity is a hoax, it is just re badged paganism with its origins from ancient Sumeria, Babylon and Egypt that is just a fact that either you accept or you don't, just like the fact that the Bush administration is guilty of Treason whether you accept it or not doesn't change the facts.

Oh and BTW

this paragraph right here shows everyone sane that your "historian" is nothing but a Young Earth Creationist nut bag that is as clueless as the day he was born.

""Human population can be estimated backwards to see how long it would have taken to achieve present-day numbers. Using conservative growth figures of one-half percent per year, Earth's population would have been eight people about 5,000 years ago, comparing very well with the number of people on Noah's Ark. Placing Babylon at 40.000 BC like some people like to do, based on evolution's claim for the origin of man, the same ½ percent growth calculation for the human race would result in a much larger present day population that can not be justified by the fossil record or current statistics. [11] In any case, the conclusion is well justified that the Biblical chronology, even in its most conservative form, fits well into all the known facts of population growth, much more so than does the evolutionary chronology of human history""

This man lost ALL credibility with such a blatantly irrational statement, he is a nut.

I agree: The Trinity has been around for a long time

There is ample archaological evidence to support the film but I can see why it can offend, because it connects too many dots. Like somehow Truth has always been a fabrication. And yet what unites us all is the quest for Truth.

But I also agree with simuvac: "Making an effective argument about 9/11 requires reducing the evidence to relevant details only, and something like Zeitgeist requires that people believe a hundred other things unrelated to 9/11."

Zeitgeist is Macro Theory.

Let us focus on getting the criminals to jail, by a criminal investigation of 911. The evidence is there.

"Let us focus on getting the

"Let us focus on getting the criminals to jail, by a criminal investigation of 911. The evidence is there."

That is what we're here for. I don't think there are many of us burning Zeitgeist to change the minds of the unsuspecting public about 911. But it is definitely worth noting that 2.5 million have clicked on it in a very short time. These things serve to assist us in knowing how we're doing in our quest for critical mass. The more we have working on the problem, the more likely a solution.

BTW Zeitgeist Google counter was reset yesterday to 37,000 views.

On second thoughts

Zeitgiest raises controversy about sacred truths. And contoversy increases sales. 9/11 Truth is a sort of trojan horse in the film. Why not? If they want to see evidence, they will eventually land up some where on the Truth space.

Sources and interactive transcript...

Sources by Marisol Uran:

[1] Encyclopedia Americana, Vol.20, Americana Corp. 1980, p.373

[2] Illuminati 666 Chap II pt 1

[3] The Two Babylons, Hislop

[4] The Golden Bough, Frazer

[5] Illuminati 666 Chapter III

[6] Gamkrelidze and Ivanov in Scientific American March 1990, or Colin Renfrew in Scientific American October 1989


[8] Sixteen Crucified Saviors by Kersey Graves.


[10] Walter Veith, Genesis Conflict



[13] Will Durant, Caesar and Christ, page 656.


- - - - - - - - - - -

Sources by creator Peter J:



* Special thanks to Acharya S for her consultation for this section*
Massey, Gerald - The Historic Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree
Carpenter, Edward: Pagan and Christian Creeds: Their Origin and Meaning Book Tree, 1998
Acharya S - The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press
Massey, Gerald - Ancient Egypt: Light of the World, Kessinger Publishing
Churchward, Albert -The Origin and Evolution of Religion, The Book Tree
Acharya S - Suns of God, Adventures Unlimited Press
Murdock, D.M. - Who was Jesus?, Steller House Publishing
Allegro, John - The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth, Prometheus Books
Frazer, Sir James: The Golden Bough, Touchstone Pub., 1890
Maxwell, Tice, Snow - That Old Time Religion, The Book Tree
Rolleston, Frances: Mazzaroth, Rivingtons, Waterloo Place, 1862
Cumont, Franz: Astrology and Religion Among the Greeks and Romans Cosimo Classics 1912
King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman
Fideler, David: Jesus Christ, Sun of God Quest Books, 1993
Berry, Gerald: Religions Of The World, Barnes & Noble Pub., 1965
Leedom, Tim C - The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read, TS Books
Paine, Thomas - The Age of Reason
Wheless, Joseph: Forgery in Christianity: A Documented Record of the Foundations of the Christian Religion 1930
Remsburg, John E. - The Christ: A Critical Review and Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence, Prometheus Books
Massey, Gerald - Egyptian Book of the Dead and the Mysteries of Amenta, Kessinger Publishing
Irvin, Jan & Rutajit, Andrew - Astrotheology and Shamanism, The Book Tree
Doherty, Earl - The Jesus Puzzle: Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ?, Age of Reason Pub.
Campbell, Joseph - Creative Mythology: The Masks of God, Penguin
Doane, T.W. - Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, Health Research
Maxwell, Jordan: The Light of World (Film Series) IRES
Singh, Madanjeet: The Sun- Symbol of Power and Life, UNESCO, 1993
Flemming, Brian: The God Who Wasn't There (Film) 2005
The Naked Truth (Film) IRES
Jackson, John G. : Christianity Before Christ, American Atheist Press, 1985

Griffin, David Ray - 911 The Myth and the Reality
Ruppert, Michael -The Truth and Lies of 9-11
Berger, Michael - Improbable Collapse
Avatar, LLC - 911 Mysteries
Hilder, Anthony J.- Illuminazi 911
Mugford, Dustin - September 11th Revisited
vonKleist, Dave - 911 In Plane Site
Hufschmid, Eric - Painful Deceptions
Rodriguez, William - What really happened on 9/11?
Zwicker, Barrie - 911 The Great Conspiracy
Duffy, John - 911 Press For Truth
Jones, Alex - Martial Law 9/11
Jones, Alex - TerrorStorm
Hilder, Anthony J.-The Greatest Lie Ever Sold
Avery, Dylan - Loose Change 2nd Edition
Humphrey, George - 911 The Great Illusion

** Important Reference Books **
Ruppert, Michael - Crossing the Rubicon, New Society Publishers
Griffin, David Ray - The New Pearl Harbor, Interlink
Griffin, David Ray - Debunking 9/11 Debunking, Olive Branch Press
Tarpley, Webster - 9/11 Synthetic Terror: Made in USA, Progressive Press
Griffin, David Ray -The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions And Distortions, Olive Branch Press
Marrs, Jim - The Terror Conspiracy: Deception, 9/11 and the Loss of Liberty, Disinformation Company

Perloff, James - The Shadows of Power, Western Islands
Marrs, Jim - Rule by Secrecy, Harper Paperbacks
Dye, Thomas R. - The Irony of Democracy, Wadsworth Publishing
Greider, William - Secrets of the Temple: How the Federal Reserve Runs the Country, Simon & Schuster
F.D.R.: His Personal Letters, Duell/Sloan/Pearce
Allen, Frederick Lewis - "Morgan The Great"/ Life Magazine - 4/25/1949
Simpson, Colin - The Lusitania, Little Brown
Pool, James - Who Financed Hitler: the Secret Funding... ,Pocket Books
Epperson, Ralph A. -The Unseen Hand
Sutton, Anthony C. - Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler, G S G & Associates Pub
Sutton, Anthony C. - The Federal Reserve Conspiracy, G S G & Associates Pub
Allen, Gary - The Rockefeller File, 76 Pr
Lundberg, Ferdinand - America's Sixty Families, Citidell Press
Mcfadden, Louis - On the Federal Reserve, Congressional Record 1934
Allen, Gary - The Bankers , Conspiratorial Origins of the Federal Reserve, American Opinion
Larson, Martin - The Federal Reserve
House, Edward Mandell -The Intimate Papers Of Colonel House, Kessinger Publishing
Sutton, Anthony C. - Wall Street and FDR, Arlington House
Wilson, Woodrow - The New Freedom
Russo, Aaron - America: Freedom To Fascism (film)
Iserbyt, Charlotte Thompson - The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America, 3d Research Co
Stinnett, Robert - Day Of Deceit, Free Press
Security and Prosperity Partnership Of North America,
Jaikaran, Jacques S. - Debt Virus, Glenbridge Publishing
Benson, Bill -The Law That Never Was
Griffin, G. Edward, The Creature from Jekyll Island, American Media
Grace Commision Report - 1984 - Reagan Admin

( in order )

Jordan Maxwell - The Inner World of the Occult Lecture
George Carlin - You are all Diseased (1999)

Bill Hicks - Revelations (1993)
Jordan Maxwell - The Light of the World, IRES

David Ray Griffin - 911 The Myth and the Reality
Jordan Maxwell - Interview from "The Greatest Lie Ever Sold"

John F. Kennedy Speech - The President and the Press, 1961
Lyndon Larouche - 2005 Webcast
Jordan Maxwell - Matrix of Power
Aaron Russo - Radio Interview with Alex Jones

Tim Galloway - Winstar Lecture, 1984
Dr. Richard Albert - Interview, 1967
Carl Sagan - from Cosmos Video Series
Bill Hicks - Revelations, 1993
David Icke - UK Lecture, 1995

Interviews of creator Peter J:

Mike Swenson of

Mark Dice

"The important thing is to not stop questioning" - Einstein
"Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance" - Einstein
Many hands make light work!
RRREMA=realize, recognize, reconcile, educate, motivate, activate

LOL beat me to it

I was just going to list the ridiculous resources of this "historian" which are horrible to say the least Vs the resources of Zeitgeist which are quite good.

You're not looking at the film properly.

Who said anything about the result being the same as a result of Zeitgeist's advice, which I believe is something along the lines of "wake up and stop the NWO." Do you think we should live in little xenophobic communities and never interact with other cultures? Globalisation comes in many forms, and the current form that the NWO is setting up is bad. That is, the Orwellian / Huxlian scenario is bad. But we already have a global economy. We already have easy transport around the world, from New York to Beijing and everywhere in between. Being able to work together is a fantastic opportunity that technology such as transportation and the internet allow us to have. We have identity as PEOPLE, what do we need an identify for as a race? We (try) in this day and age to not have identity as a gender, because in the end it doesn't matter what your gender is. We ought to strive to NOT connect our identities with our color or creed either: only then will we have equality (in the good sense of the word, i.e., voluntarily and not forced/fake equality).

I am a human being. I am neither black nor white, male nor female, old nor young, republican nor democrat, Christian nor Jew. I am a citizen of Planet Earth. I am part and parcel of the The Spirit of Mankind, of Nature itself. This is the message presented in Zeitgeist: not your hokey story about how disconnecting from our colors and creeds will lead to some gray form of an Orwellian Distopia.

We are all One.

We are...

...coming into a new age, no doubt about it. There are those whom have had power in one form or another, who are fearful of losing there power as we as a human species outgrow our simplistic world view.
There are so many machinations of control that to ignore the oldest institution of Power is like trying to understand the War on Terror without understanding 9/11.
9/11 was a singular event, in a planned process to establish a global control structure that will last for a very long time. If you think the level of apathy in the US is bad, imagine it on a world wide scale, with a noose around the your neck in the form of money that is paperless and can be revoked at the slightest hint of dissent for you and your families?
Zeitgeist is not for beginners, but like in the film, unless you are prepared for the whole truth your never going to be free.

11/11 Never Forget - Fetzer Flips
Zeitgeist Movie Torrent DVDRip (XviD)


People need to wake up to factual reality and not just about 9/11, it is all interconnected.

Yes, it is all about the Year Zero

Every so often humanity resets the clocks of time to YEAR ZERO.

As if somebody says: "All past knowledge prior to Year Zero is hereby declared null and void!
I am the Truth!"

But we know there is one truth. We have been blind, we have been locked into believing that the past does not count. We have been locked into a very small part of our long historical path. Some people even believe they live only in the present. But we come from days that go back beyong the Bible. The dawn of time.

And then came 9/11 to cast light on many dark things.

9/11 Truth not just about evidence

Now don't get me wrong, i'm all for evidence. But there is more to it than that.
If 9/11 Truth was just about evidence and people would be able to look at the evidence in a rational way, the current administration would not be in place any more. But this is not the case. Why? Because 9/11 Truth has more to do with perception and legitimacy than it has to do with evidence alone. Attacking Christianity will definitely NOT increase the legitimacy of 9/11 Truth.
How much chance for example would i have of ever becoming the next US President if i explicitly denounced religion and said i was an atheist? RIGHT!
If you want to debate religion, that's great. But do it on your own time and don't explicitly associate it with 9/11 Truth.

I would NEVER recommend Zeitgeist to anyone

primarily because part one is so idiotic. I am not a Christian, but I spent all of part one curled into a fetal position of cringe, because it's like the worst-ever critique of the Christian myth as presented by a seventeen year-old. (Did the final cut have the part about the word "sunset" being a reference to Set edited out? Come on!)

What is lost on the filmmaker is that the majority of Christians of any depth -- certainly DRG -- KNOW that the story of Christ is similar to and probably derived from pre-existing myths of the dying god. And it is irrelevant to their faith. Mega-church, "Moral Majority" Christians will just be instantly turned off, except for some percentage of "problem" teenagers among them, who will believe they've joined some elite of "those in the know".

People are conned into believing all sorts of completely pernicious bullshit in our culture. Personally, I am MUCH more worried about people who buy the lie that those of us who are privileged somehow deserve our standard of living at the expense of at least a billion people in the third world whose suffering we can't begin to imagine, than those who think Jesus is "real."

Also, out of curiosity, could someone lay out for me how the myth of Jesus' life corresponds to perfectly to the houses of the Zodiac? I heard about three -- what are the other nine?


, out of curiosity, could someone lay out for me how the myth of Jesus' life corresponds to perfectly to the houses of the Zodiac? I heard about three -- what are the other nine?

There are hundreds of Archaeological sites/books that document this although they are a bit dry and hard to follow, the 3 I listed here however are easy to follow.

Thanks -- I skimmed those links

There are some clear parallels and some that seem pretty tenuous. I enjoy parallels like that.

I grew up surrounded by Christian theologians (both parents and all their friends.) It is taken as a GIVEN that the story of Jesus' life was manipulated in order to fit a mythic structure, that Jesus' birthday was moved from the spring to the winter solstice, etc. This is not news to them! And I really don't know how much investment they even have in a historical figure named Jesus (I think they tend to believe it -- I tend to disbelieve it.) Their Christianity is based on something different from the account that Zeitgeist "exposes". And in a nutshell, it has a lot more to do with the possibility of compassion for the suffering than with an inconsistent narrative, told in at least four forms (more, including the Gnostic gospels.)

I respect your opinions, Nunyabiz, and I don't expect you to ever agree with me on this. But I wonder if you could imagine what it would be like to know all of this about Christianity and STILL want to be a follower of Jesus? (I have some ideas, but as I've said, I'm a Buddhist and I really couldn't care less whether there was a real, historical Buddha.)


But I wonder if you could imagine what it would be like to know all of this about Christianity and STILL want to be a follower of Jesus?

Nope sure cant imagine it that would make me insane, be the same as still believing that Santa Clause is real.

It is human nature to try and defend a deeply held belief, in the case of Christianity, well ALL of the big 3 religions actually that defense is quite desperate.

With Buddhism you have virtually none of this cognitive dissonance to over come, Buddhism is not a religion it is a "way of life" or simple philosophy that makes no magical claims.
by all reasonable accounts Siddhartha Gautama (Buddha) did exist in reality.
Jesus however did not exist in reality there is not a single shred of evidence that shows this, there is lots of evidence that shows he was in fact a construct of various sun god religions dating back to the Sumerians some 3000 years before Christianity existed. It is all basically the same story with variations throughout the many areas & tribes that changed these allegorical stories to fit local folklore.

Well, actually,

some Buddhist sects make all sorts of magical claims, have bullshit patriarchal practices, etc, etc. However, it's maybe easier for a non-Buddhist to glimpse that there's a thread in Buddhism that is is separate from cultural baggage and dogma. I propose there is a similar thread in Christianity (because I know some Christians like that).

Do you object to little kids (and their parents) getting pleasure out of the Santa Claus myth? Some people do, and I can respect that. However, there's an exponentially enlarged version of that mental and emotional experience that provides something good for some Christians. It exists independently of evidence of Jesus as a historical figure, and it benefits and is magnified by all the parallels that Zeitgeist documents.

For me, the probability that Buddha did exist is almost a liability, because that's where a lot of the bullshit comes from.

you object to little kids

you object to little kids (and their parents) getting pleasure out of the Santa Claus myth?

Not at all, but when the child grows up and finds out that indeed it is pure myth then the gig is up and life goes on no harm done. With Christianity and most other religions the gig is never up the myth is never let go.
Going through life with a worldview that is pure fantasy simply can not be a good thing no matter what rationale is used to defend it.

However, there's an exponentially enlarged version of that mental and emotional experience that provides something good for some Christians.

Living life as a delusional psychotic thinking that "this life" is merely a whistle stop on the Jaahheessussahhh Train in essence makes the only life you are ever going to get meaningless. I find that both sad and dangerous, it is the same mindset & worldview that makes Muslim extremist strap on a bomb and murder innocent human beings in the name of Allah so they can sashay on off to paradise with 72 virgins. It is self induced insanity.

I'm done, except...

I really thought I was just going to drop it.

"Living life as a delusional psychotic thinking that "this life" is merely a whistle stop on the Jaahheessussahhh Train in essence makes the only life you are ever going to get meaningless. I find that both sad and dangerous, it is the same mindset & worldview that makes Muslim extremist strap on a bomb and murder innocent human beings in the name of Allah so they can sashay on off to paradise with 72 virgins. It is self induced insanity."

This is by no means a universal belief among Christians. Do you think this is what David Ray Griffin believes and that his life is meaningless?

Now I'm done. :)

I would argue that following jesus is a way of life as well

Food for thought, considering most of the mega church christians don't even follow jesus.

Show "Science Challenges Atheist Religion" by epochthree

Not really sure if this is supposed to be serious

or not, but if it is then I think it is a good representation of what I mean by "delusional Psychotic"

Round Up The Usual Delusional Psychotic Suspects

by Randall Sullivan, contributing editor of Rolling Stone

...."First they say I will not be allowed to finish
school or attend university," Mirjana recalled. "Then
they say I will go to prison, or spend the rest of my
life in a mental hospital. They say there are people
who want to have me shot...." [ When I ask who, they say "Nunyabiz"]


....a team of physicians from the University of
Montpelier ... were about to conduct the most complete
scientific study of an alleged supernatural event in
the history of Catholicism. The leader of the French
doctors ... Dr. Henri Joyeux had come to Medjugorje on
his first trip to the village accompanied by only an
electronics engineer. The two men had made video- and
audio tapes of the visionaries during thirty-five
apparitions, hoping to determine whether the
"synchronizations" of the seers might have been
orchestrated. Back in France, after several weeks of
studying the tapes at the slowest speeds possible, Dr.
Joyeux became convinced that "definitive" tests were
warranted and organized a team of other doctors from
the university. He could not, of course, prove that
these six children were actually seeing the Virgin
Mary, Dr. Joyeux told Father Laurentin. However, the
doctor felt certain that he would be able to confirm
or eliminate an entire range of medical and
psychological explanations.

The problem was that the seers refused to
cooperate, citing the Virgin's statement to Ivan
during the tests by the Italian doctors nearly a year
earlier: "It is not necessary." Only after days' delay
and a series of strenuous arguments were Dr. Joyeux
and Father Laurentin able to convince young Jakov that
the children should ask the Virgin for permission to
be tested during their next apparition. This they had
done, the six reported that evening, and the Madonna's
reply was succinct: "You are free." After another day
of discussion, all six visionaries agreed to be

The most eminent of the physicians on Dr.
Joyeux's team was the ear, nose, and throat specialist
Dr. Francois Rouquerol. He had been able to
demonstrate a clear "disconnection of the auditory
pathways during the ecstasy" of each visionary, Dr.
Rouquerol reported. He had proven that most
convincingly, the doctor explained, by blaring ninety
decibels of engine noise into the ears of the seers
during their apparitions; none had reacted. He also
reported that, while his instruments showed the
visionaries' voices had become completely silent
during the apparitions, their lips, tongues, and
facial muscles had continued to function exactly as
when speech was audible. Somehow, completely separate
from the rest of their physical faculties, the larynx
of each seer had ceased to operate during the period
of silence. This anomaly was singular in his
experience and could not be accounted for by any
condition known to medical science, Dr. Roquerol

The opthalmologist on the French team, Dr.
Jacques Philippot, not only confirmed the profoundly
inhibited eyelid reflex to dazzling light observed
earlier by the Italian doctors, but also demonstrated
that from the beginning to the end of their
apparitions, the gaze of all the children remained
fixed on exactly the same point several feet above
their heads. Even when he tried to block their vision
with an opaque screen, Philippot noted, the seers'
eyes had not reacted. What Philippot considered most
compelling was that he had measured a simultaneity of
eyeball movement among the visionaries of less than
one-fifth of a second at both the beginning and the
end of their apparitions; this was so far beyond the
capacity of normal human functioning that no form of
collusion or manipulation could account for it.

Heart specialist Dr. Bernard Hoarau reported that
his electrocardiogram, blood pressure, and heart
rhythm examinations of the seers during their
ecstasies "allow us to exclude totally the existence
of the phenomena of dreams, sleep or epilepsy."
Neurologist Dr. Jean Cadhilac added that the tests he
had conducted on the visionaries "eliminate formally
all clinical signs comparable to those observed during
individual or collective hallucination, hysteria,
neurosis or pathological ecstasy."

Like nearly everyone else who studied the results
obtained by the French team, Dr. Joyeux was most
impressed by the electroencephalogram tests that had
measured activity in eight distinct areas of the
seers' brains during their ecstasies. All states of
consciousness known to neuroscience involved some
admixture of alpha (receptive) and beta (reactive)
impulses. Dr. Joyeux observed that the ratio of
activity in the seers' brains prior to an apparition
was exactly normal: ten alpha cycles to twenty beta
cycles each second. Falling asleep or into a trance
state would have increased the beta cycles while
reducing the number of alpha cycles. During their
apparitions, exactly the opposite occurred: Their beta
impulses stopped completely. The six young people were
not simply awake during their apparitions, but
hyper-awake, in a state of pure meditation that
previously had been observed in just a handful of
Trappist or Buddhist monks while deeply in prayer. And
those monks had achieved this "generalized alpha
rhythm," Dr. Joyeux noted, only when their eyes were
closed, whereas the Medjugorje visionaries had kept
their eyes wide open during the entire time of their

In the spring of 1985, Dr. Joyeux submitted a
report that concluded: "The ecstasies are not
pathological, nor is there any element of deceit. No
scientific discipline seems able to describe these
phenomena." Concurrent with the publication of his
work, Dr. Joyeux agreed to an interview with Paris
Match. "The phenomena of the apparitions at Medjugorje
cannot be explained scientifically," the doctor told
the magazine's interviewer. "In one word, these young
people are healthy and there is no sign of epilepsy,
nor is it a sleep or dream state. It is neither a case
of pathological hallucination nor hallucination in the
hearing or sight faculies ... It cannot be a
cataleptic state, for during the ecstasy the facial
muscles are operating in a normal way." The ecstasies
of the seers at Medjugorje "do not belong to any
scientific determinations," the doctor added. "It is
more like a state of deep, active prayer, in which
they are partially disconnected from the physical
world, in a state of contemplation and sane encounter
with a person whom they alone can see, hear and touch.
We cannot reach the transmitter, but we can ascertain
that the receivers are in a state of sane and good
working order."

In September 1985, shortly after Dr. Joyeux left
Medjugorje for the last time, the Italians dispatched
their own all-star team of doctors from Milan's
mangiagalli Clinic to the village. The most intriguing
results obtained by the Italian team were reported by
Dr. Michael Sabatini....

I'm assuming the above was serious then?

a correlation between lack of eye movement and certain kinds of motor stem disorders, such as Parkinson's or other conditions, such as ocular motor apraxia are more related to an inability to track and follow movement.

There are also things like neurotrophic keratopathy - but that usually results in degeneration of the cornea epithelium. Interesting enough, it can be triggered by herpes simplex.

The point is that lack of eye movement, decreased blinking, etc. are known conditions usually related to some form of medical disorder. The literature is not sufficiently detailed to determine (based on the highly subjective reporting coming from medjugorje) what is going on - but nothing requires it to be supernatural in nature.

So let me get this straight. The (alleged) God of the Universe, who created quarks, volcano's, DNA, and 100,000 species of beetles decides to give humans a miracle, and this is it.

They see a vision of Mary and their eyes don't blink? WOOHOO Yep that rates right on up there with the image of Mary on a cheese sandwich and in a piss stain under a bridge.
Delusional Psychotics all.

Show "Are you a real psychiatrist, or do you just play one on the inte" by epochthree

If you honestly believe this drivel

then I can only feel sorry for you. I suppose you believe in faith healers also? Mary image in a cheese sandwich etc?
This is all pure rubbish without a shred of real evidence to back it up.
You know how many virgin Mary sightings the Catholic Church receives every year? Over 20,000.
Now that is just the ones where the Church is actually told about to come and "investigate" you know there are many times that.
So just the amount of time that you have been reading this post about 100 psychotics have convinced themselves they have seen the virgin Mary, be it in a piece of wood, a sandwich, a potato, a piss stain and on & on. Now how many of these have EVER been confirmed in all of human history? ABSOLUTELY ZERO!
This is because it doesn't exist in "reality" just in the mind of the believer because they WANT to believe it.
This is also about the same phenomena we see with those that have convinced themselves that Bin Laden and 19 Arabs attacked us on 9/11 even though not ONE shred of evidence proves this.
HOW? because this is what they WANT to believe thus they will flatly refuse to accept all the overwhelming evidence that 9/11 was the most blatant false flag attack in history.

Religion in general literally destroys the thinking and reasoning mind, once you have divorced yourself from factual reality to the point where you deny the cold hard facts of Evolution, age of the Earth, or believe that praying to some mythical sun god is going heal you if you are deathly ill then you can be made to believe anything, you have lost the critical ability to reason.

Some people are capable of compartmentalizing this insanity, usually very intelligent people as a rule can manage this.

For instance Steven Jones, clearly a highly intelligent man BUT this man has compartmentalized the insanity within, he WANTS so badly to believe that the 'Book of Mormon" is true and correct that he truely believes he has proven it and he believes that Joseph Smith (A total con man) actually dug up a Divine golden tablet telling of the mythical sun god (Jesus) visit to North America along with many Egyptians some 2000 years ago.
What about Tom Cruise? I would suspect he is rather intelligent yet he fully believes in Scientology.

I can on & on with many such examples.

Religion has made these men believe something that is clearly utter bullshit and there is no way in hell that you could convince them otherwise.

Quite sad really, but it is the exact same phenomena we see with those that have convinced themselves of the OCT.

All relifions are welcome here -- even atheist fundamentalists

Sorry to have confused you with the facts when your mind is already made up.

Fortunately the movement for 9/11 truth can accomodate fundamentalist religionists, as well as fundamentalist anti-religionists such as yourself.

well thank you

but you prove my point when you call stuff like this "facts". There are no facts that prove ANY religious dogma, none, nil, Nada, zip that is why faith is all you have.
I will gladly wear the moniker of fundamentalist Atheist with pride, means that I unwaveringly place empirical evidence based solely on factual reality as my guide & worldview.
BTW Atheism is not a religion by any stretch of the most vivid imagination, no more than trying to call Bald a hair color.

Edit: Wrong URL Above; should be:

Sorry for the inconvenience; my delusional psychosis must be acting up again.