David Ray Griffin v. George Monbiot -- 11-29-2007

EDIT: Even though Monbot was an egregious twit, please thank James Whale for hosting this debate, and offering a non-hostile, non-Mockingbird venue:


On November 29, 2007, UK radio jock James Whale hosted an informal debate between David Ray Griffin and George Monbiot. In a childish display of ill manners, Monbiot can't help but blurt out and interrupt Griffin, when Griffin begins to give answers at the beginning of the debate. Later in the debate, when Griffin returns the favor, Monbiot gets all in a snit and acts wounded when Griffin turns the tactic on him. What a sod!

Monbot (sic) gets it wrong in lots of ways, including top-down demolition, so here is an example of top-down demo once again, just for the Monbot!

He's also wrong about the length and breadth of a hypothetical conspiracy. Some blogger by the handle of GeorgeWashington says 9/11 could be argued as a 7-man Job. The irony inherent in Monbot's position, as with all other debunkers who take the same position, is of course that they see no problem with just 19 guys pulling off 9/11. According to them, then, the official conspiracy theory is impossible! It would have taken hundreds! Thousands to pull it off!

It's just sad.

Thanks to VAB for getting this out there so fast, here are more options, including the full three hour program which features further interviews with Tim Sparke and Dylan Avery. (The Griffin/Monbiot bit ends abrubtly, but that's all there is.)

-1st hour: www.911building7.co.uk/RadioShows/JamesWhale291107/WhaleHour1.mp3
-2nd hour: www.911building7.co.uk/RadioShows/JamesWhale291107/WhaleHour2.mp3
-3rd hour: www.911building7.co.uk/RadioShows/JamesWhale291107/WhaleHour3.mp3

D/L while it lasts:

DRG v. Smearbigot

Firstly, I admire DRG's work and support him dearly but this was quite a fiasco from the point of view of possible firs time listener.. It could be due to the fact that Monbiot had used actualy pretty idiotic approach to reasoning/argumentation so he in effect managed to derail DRG ..

Suggestions for next time:

1/ Monbiot:
Q: How come they didn't knock you off for revealing the "biggest secret ever.."?
A (DRG): Did they silenced Elsberg, Gravel, Bernestein&Woodward? No, it's not always working like that ..

2/ Monbiot:
Q: How come Loose Change 1,2,3 keeps changing and runing away from the earlier claims?
A (DRG): The volumnous material available had to be prioritize, so these are partly cuts, also the story evolves as more material is being available, speculative material had to go first, otherwise the
main structure and arguments remain intact.. etc.

and some more..
sorry I just can't make myself listen to that show all over again to write down more,
I just started to have be physically disgusted by that grand SOB Monbiot..

Dylan has been apparently during latest days in such a great form (brilliant AP interview) and later on this particular show that he would knocked out Monbiot-Smearbigot in the first round KO..

PS from the Monbiot's tone of voice at some places of the debate it seems to me they must have some
realy nasty dirty laundary on him. He can't be that stupid.. As mentioned the host there are currently very few or virtually nobody standing up to defend the official conspiracy BS in similar one on one moderated talk format. So either Monbiot is completely crazy (now can't turn tables - he just placed his petty career on this) or someone is twisting his hands hard to take part in this charade..


...it seems to me they must have some realy nasty dirty laundary on him. He can't be that stupid..

That's what I am wondering, too. I mean, he can't be that stupid not to realize that with the "pile driver" theory the destruction works both ways -- both the underlying building and the pile driver will experience destruction at equal rate.

Monbiot seems to be the one who has a totally fantastic theory, not DRG -- a theory of a big sledgehammer, an order of magnitude stronger and more massive than the tower, apparently, coming down from heaven, smashing the building to the ground while "all sorts of debris" flies horizontally as if from a pumkin, and leaving no trace of itself afterwards...

I wish DRG would have quickly countered the argument of "too many involved people", because IMO, this is the biggest stumbling block for new ears. What was Dr. Jone's estimate? -- 20 trips by 10 people, 1200 lbs of thermite? It is tough for amateurs (like Monbiot) to appreciate the density of chemical energy -- they have no idea how much of it can be packed into a pound of thermite.

ACE Elevators had a staff

ACE Elevators had a staff of more than 20 ppl working in the towers - They all made it out alive.
If indeed the elevators had the high explosive/superthermite charges attacking the core, they could have been brought in all at once and kept on the maintenance floors.

No need for some huge amount of people at all. Bomb sniffing dogs are not going to find thermate/superthermite. Back up the deliver truck to the loading dock - load up the freight elevator and proceed with the "contract" for elevator maintenance and upgrades.

Bob Jones, a mechanic for Ace Elevators, and Yvette Moultrie-Anderson, who worked for the New York State Tax and Finance Corporation, both Danville natives, were both in the B Tower of the World Trade Center on the morning of Sept. 11, 2001. Jones lived to tell the story, but Anderson was one of nearly 3,000 lost in the attacks.
Jones said his friend had been there when the World Trade Center was bombed in 1993 and immediately headed toward the stairs, but Jones started toward the elevators so he could shut them down for the safety of those who were in the building.
In the sky lobby there were four banks of elevators that Jones had to shut down. He started with elevators servicing floors 44 and up so there would be no risk of people being trapped on the elevators. Then he boarded the freight elevator to the ground floor to report to his supervisor for further instructions.
source: Registerbee.com
Two World Trade Center

* Aaron Copland Fund for Music
* Abad Castillo & Mallonga 1848
* H. Abbe International, Inc 2844
* Abracadabra Color Copy Ctr 1826, 1884
* Accrolynch Corp 1556
* Ace Elevators 3550
I believe that puts them on the 35th floor ? right around the first set of mechanical floors in the South Tower.
source: newsnet5.com

There USED to be more info on ACE Elevator online, but I can't find them... I think they had a staff of 89 people. If anyone had the means and method for rigging the towers it would be the people in charge of the elevators. Hell you don't even have to assume that they knew what was going on, if they were given a plan to install devices and schematics of where to place everything, how would they know what would be in the 'boxes'. Watching Gordon Ross in the LCFC Press Conference in the UK kind of solidifies that bit of the puzzle for me.
Truth Revolution: The Eleventh of Every Month

Bogged down in detail???

On the contrary, it is George Monbiot who bogged down the debate with extraneous details and constant speculation about how many people and explosives it would take to bring down all three towers. If anything, David Ray Griffin is the one who avoids this technique of distraction by focusing on the empirical evidence available, such as the obvious features of controlled demolition.

This was a good debate! Thanks for the commercial-free recording, Reprehensor!

Yeah, that caught my ear as well

Monbiot is such a dick. Notice how he changes the subject to the Pentagon, at that point.

Truthers should use a "cumulative" approach to argumentation, but not what Griffin means by the word. I would begin these debates by destabilizing the official story, not by jumping to alternative conclusions. Start with the compromises of the 9/11 Commission, because that shows we can't trust its conclusions. Then talk about specifics.

Monbiot proceeds here by specious argument alone. There are whole stretches of this "debate" that are a complete waste of time. Who gives a shit "why David Ray Griffin hasn't been killed," George? Who gives a shit "how the bombs would have been planted in the buildings," George? Should we ignore obvious evidence just because George Monbiot doesn't have the imagination of whoever did it? Distraction after distraction.

This is typical of debunking. They don't "debunk" so much as they distract and pose alternative explanations. Could the explosions have been gas lines exploding from the fires from the planes? I guess maybe; but that doesn't PROVE anything.

Monbiot's answers were really non-answers

Great comments in this thread by many...

I thought that Monbiot's answers were really non-answers and it was extremely telling how he wouldn't even acknowledge the simple fact that an eyewitness was talking about explosions in a different building before either of the towers collapsed. That's either denial or willful ignorance.

The idea that activists are still alive therefore they are wrong is also complete nonsense. First of all, how many of us are there? How many would the government kill? And if they did that, it would be pretty obvious that they have something to hide. As if there wasn't enough evidence of that already. Talk about the evidence!

I find that these "debates" are so frustrating because the facts of 9/11 are so obvious that anyone can figure it out if you just put aside the false premise that "it's impossible", "they wouldn't do that", "I don't believe they could do it", etc. This is called argument from incredulity.

The argument from personal incredulity, also known as argument from personal belief or argument from personal conviction, refers to an assertion that because one personally finds a premise unlikely or unbelievable, the premise can be assumed not to be true, or alternately that another preferred but unproven premise is true instead. "I can't believe this is possible, so it can't be true." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

It's time to start looking at what is true, instead of what we want to be true. The psychological barrier has to be broken.

The negligence theory has to be ATTACKED for what it is: Absurd.

While any serious investigation of the 9/11 attacks was blocked by President Bush and Dick Cheney for more than a year,[6] a theory of systematic and incredible incompetence emerged: Al Qaeda got “lucky”. Mindy Kleinberg, of the 9/11 Family Steering Committee in an opening address to the 9/11 Commission criticized this idea:

“It has been said that the intelligence agencies have to be right 100% of the time. And the terrorists only have to get lucky once. This explanation for the devastating attacks of September 11th, simple on its face, is wrong in its value, because the 9-11 terrorists were not just lucky once. They were lucky over and over again. When you have this repeated pattern of broken protocols, broken laws, broken communication, one cannot still call it luck. If at some point, we don’t look to hold the individuals accountable for not doing their jobs, properly, then how can we ever expect for terrorists to not get lucky again?”[7]

What happened to those who failed, and what exactly were their failures?[8] Senator Charles Grassley observed that “I can’t think of a single person being held accountable anywhere in government for what went on and what went wrong prior to Sept. 11, it seems that nobody in government makes any mistakes anymore.”[9] In fact, according to testimony given to congress, not one single individual within the CIA, FBI, and NSA has been reprimanded, punished, or fired for the events of 9/11.[10] Not only were no individuals held accountable, 911truth.org observed that “officials who ‘failed’ (like Myers and Eberhard, as well as Frasca, Maltbie and Bowman of the FBI) were given promotions.”[11] A Justice Department official commented about the FBI, “they have basically promoted the exact same people who have presided over the… failure.”[12] As for the military “response” to 9/11, “suspicion of [Pentagon] wrongdoing ran so deep that the 10-member commission, in a secret meeting at the end of its tenure in summer 2004, debated referring the matter to the Justice Department for criminal investigation,”[13] Senator Mark Dayton Claimed that NORAD officials “lied to the American people, they lied to Congress and they lied to your 9/11 commission to create a false impression of competence, communication and protection of the American people.”[14] What happened? Promotions.
9/11 “Incompetence”, Sabotage, and Promotions
Arabesque: 911 Truth

I listened to the entire

I listened to the entire radio show last night after downloading. Griffin was great, as always, but Monbiot was a complete twit. I used to respect that guy, but it's hard to now after hearing his inane comments. The most ridiculous part was when Monbiot insists that Griffin answer his question about why Griffin hasn't been killed. As if. And, when Griffin doesn't give an answer, Monbiot badgers Griffin over and over. Obviously, anyone with a brain realizes that it was a useless question that has nothing to do with 9/11 evidence. Beyond absurd.

Dylan Avery came across quite nicely in the second segment, and the phone call-ins near the end were interesting, mainly because the callers, even those who don't believe it was an inside job, at least were intelligent and had arguments that were worth considering. In the U.S., it's all just name calling.




Ask him to get Sibel Edmonds on.

Dear Joe...

Yes we would all like to see that, however she said she wanted MAJOR UNCENSORED MEDIA coverage.
Funny how they are'nt falling all over themseles to get that chance.

Whale and Avery talk about it..

Whale says something about having her on and then the story would be picked up in the US.

Something..Anything...to get the ball rolling.

Tim Sparks

I thought Tim Sparks spoke very well too, except at the end where he accepts that there is some potential merit in the ideas that the WTC twin towers were shoddily and decayed to the point that they could fall down by themselves. Both ideas are absurd.

Speaking of "how many people..."

Read this article:

Do Freedom of Information Act Files Prove FDR Had Foreknowledge of Pearl Harbor?

"Your research seems to prove that government conspiracies can exist. In your view, how many people would you say ultimately knew that Japan was going to attack Pearl Harbor, but kept quiet about it and covered it up before and after the event?

Stinnett: I cite about thirty-five people there in the book that most certainly knew about it. And it’s probably more than that."

Monbiot nailed himself in his own article:

"I believe that they [the Bush administration] were criminally negligent in failing to respond to intelligence about a potential attack by al-Qaida..." --George Monbiot, "9/11 fantasists pose a mortal danger to popular oppositional campaigns", UK Guardian

Well, that's a crime, George Monbiot. A crime with the most serious consequences. Tell me again why it doesn't matter?

If Monbiot believes he has them convicted of "criminal negligence" before even an independent investigation of the facts has taken place, where does he get off disparaging the idea of an intentional treasonous decision to allow the 9/11 attacks?

He's inconsistent, and his own words betray him. He should be called out on THAT every time he opens his ignorant mouth.

Stinnet is highly recommended.

His book, "Day of Deceit" is dry as toast, but damning as hell. Key members of Naval Intelligence knew.

There was also a coded message intercepted on December 4, 1941, but all evidence of the teletyped message has either been destroyed or is locked away deep in an archive;


"There was a Winds Message. It meant War--and we knew it meant War. By the best estimate that can be made from my recollection and the circumstantial evidence now available, the "Winds Message" was part of a Japanese Overseas "News" Broadcast from Station JAP (Tokyo) on 11980 kilocycles beginning at 1330 Greenwich Civil Time on Thursday, December 4, 1941. This time corresponded to 10:30 p.m. Tokyo time and 8:30 a.m. Washington time, December 4, 1941. The broadcast was probably in Japanese Morse code, and was originally written in the Kata-Kana form of written, plain-language Japanese. It was intercepted by the U.S. Navy at the big radio receiving station at Cheltenham, Maryland, which serves the Navy Department. It was recorded on a special typewriter, developed by the Navy, which types the Roman-letter equivalents of the Japanese characters. The Winds Message broadcast was forwarded to the Navy Department by TWX (teletypewriter exchange) from the teletype-transmitter in the "Intercept" receiving room at Cheltenham to "WA91," the page-printer located beside the GY Watch Officer's desk, in the Navy Department Communication Intelligence Unit under my command. I saw the Winds Message typed in page form on yellow teletype paper, with the translation written below. I immediately forwarded this message to my Commanding Officer (Rear Admiral Leigh Noyes, USN), thus fully discharging my responsibility in the matter."

MP3 Audio Clip of Dylan Avery on Sports Talk Radio

Friday November 30, 2007
Dylan Avery on British Radio Program Sports Talk

* source = http://www2.talksport.net/

Monday October 22, 2007
Jason Bermas and Dylan Avery Talk With Alex Jones About Loose Change Final Cut

* source = http://www.infowars.com

Friday November 9, 2007
Jason Bermas and Dylan Avery Promoting Loose Change Final Cut on the Alex Jones Show

* source = http://www.infowars.com

Monbiot's dull wit

Monbiot believes, apparently, that the passports planted as "evidence" may indeed have been planted???

Hello, George? I look forward to a FULL ARTICLE about how that would be possible. Monbiot needs to defend his theory or fully embrace the theory that the improbable passports were authentic.

The day after 9/11 when miraculously the UNSCATHED passport of Satam Al Suqami, one of the alleged 19 Arab terrorists, turned up several blocks from Ground Zero.

But that wasn't good enough! The authorities also, incredibly, found the passport of Atta!

Monbiot's theory of 'incompetence' needs to explain how the authorities created these passports, how they planted them, and HOW MANY PEOPLE WOULD HAVE BEEN NEEDED TO CREATE THESE FAKE PASSPORTS?

Keep up the pressure...

... and email him, asking him to elaborate on this.

Well said.

Each dynamite package can be triggered off by a radio link

and today explosives do not need to be wired up as in the past. Each dynamite package can be triggered off by a radio link to the computer playing the explosion sequence. The fact that the planes ( flying objects ?) made random placed holes in the towers is not a problème either because as it was cerntainly a computer program which was setting of the bombs, the program could be reajusted in real time for any unforseen difficulties.

There are a lot of flaws in George's account. A complete transcript will help to detect them all.

Tim Sparke on the BBC

I don't know if this is worth highlighting in this blog entry, but at about the 12 minute mark of hour 2 Tim Sparke says that many people within the BBC agree with Loose Change but that they can't "lead" with it. He says he spoke "BBC execs" last week.

Tim Sparks at the 12 Minute Mark of Hour Two

Thursday November 29, 2007
Tim Sparks Talks About His Off Record Discussionn With BBC Staff About 9/11 Conspiracy Stories

* source = http://www2.talksport.net/

Dear Dr. Griffin........

Thank you ! The one thing i want to point out is this.To all the backers of the official fairy tale. Have you really looked deep into ALL the truth movements claims? I find it hard to believe you have. It seems they ask well then how did they do it,and who did it? I find myself saying ........HELLO ! The truth movement want's these questions as well, yet all our challenges for a major media debate has proved to be impossible. Why?
So Mr Monbiot......Pile driver collapse? The top thirty floors hammered the bottom eighty? Why are'nt the top thirty floors on the ground at both locations?
Ok got to go.....Listing to the second part ,and it looks to be damn good....Now were talking about all the truth movements experts !!!........And this is what i would ask!

And the téléviion spire from the north tower should be standing

And the téléviion spire from the north tower should be standing high up ( ~30 floors high ?) like a pencil falling to the ground Just once found television footage showing the spire for a few seconds on the ground standing straight up in the air. Then in about one second itt disintegrated to dust. The Loose Change Final Cut has the spire standing up from the ground but they have shown it disintegrating.

Why is George Monbiot trying so hard not to understand. It goes beyond being stupid.


"Why is George Monbiot trying so hard not to understand. It goes beyond being stupid."
It's called arrogance and it blinds him to his own self delusion and evidence that contradicts his dogma.
Or he could just be disinfo.

Debate full of interesting information can someone transcipt it

The debate was full of so much interesting information can some one do a transcript.

I know it is a lot of work but had a thought that perhaps "Speech Recognition with windows XP" or other device could help to do 90% of the work.

I have never had the chance to use these tools but if some one on this 911blogger has such a recognition system perhaps they could try to put the three tapes above in a texte file and post it here to be corrected a 100%.

Voice recognition / dictation software

for word

Yours John

Monbiot engages in smear and speculation

Just heard part 1 of the Griffin vs Monbot debate,and im disgusted with Monbots tactics. He is doing a great deal to trash his reputation as an investigative journalist by trying to steer the debate toward speculation. Every time Griffin tries to steer nit back to evidence, Monbot says something like: 'why wont u answer my question' (eg why havent you been assasinated) etc
Monbot has no idea of how stupid he sounds to any audience who is fence sitting.Might i suggest that people en masse send Monbot an email criticising his behaviour, and saying how much more rationally Griffin behaved. You can do so at his website:



respect to James for being at the very least neutral, and in many cases, clearly challenged George on his small minded questions.

Great to hear such a debate on national media!! Shows what can be done, when there aren't shadowy figures from the mainstream channels (bbc, C4, sky etc..)