Green Party Presidential Candidate Recognizes "The Shell Game"s Importance.

Green Party Presidential Candidate Recognizes "The Shell Game"s Importance

(Video links and photos at source.)

By Bill Douglas - February 1, 2008 - (Digg)

If you were told by corporate media that Congresswoman McKinney was defeated by another Democratic Congressperson, because she had a run in with a guard at the Capitol, your head must still be spinning because of the multiple lies and distortions corporate media has hit you with. Let’s untangle the lies.

Cynthia McKinney is a key to the corporate media, Democratic, Republican suppression of 9/11 truth, and her story is very illuminating.

It all began with her appearance on KPFA, Pacifica Radio, in San Francisco on March 25, 2002. But, let’s set the stage a bit. Remember this was only seven months after 9/11, after Leahy and Daschle, the only opposition Party members leading challenges to the Patriot Act had been sent US military grade anthrax in the mail, and at a point when too many of the Democrats were fighting with one another to see who could kiss George W. Bush’s *ss first.

On this regional radio program Congresswoman McKinney had the good sense to state several things that seem so obvious now, but to the trembling frightened sheep we called our Congress and Senate on the Dem side, and the goose-stepping GOP on the other side . . . McKinney’s words seemed heretical...


i dont like the 'shell

i dont like the 'shell game'---it presupposes that

a.---there will DEFINITELY be a fight with iran in the future

b.-- tries to lay the vibe like the 911truth movement will eventually fail in taking out the cfr

c.--is just capitalizing off of the writings of all of the 911truth bloggers---probably the greatest literary movement in american history

so regardless of whether the 'shell game' ==="gets 911 truth mainstream"

we're gonna keep on truckin either way

until the end

Jesus Christ Bob, can't you see the opportunity. Why spit on it?

I thought the efforts of the 9/11 bloggers was to create a mass movement. I mean are we just an intellectual elite circle jerk, or what?

If we wanted the movement to grow, then this is what it looks like, when a NY Times best selling author learns from what we've written and then uses his skills to get more truth out.

His website leads to all major 9/11 truth research and activist websites.

IF the 9/11 truth movement exerted its muscle and drove this book to #1 . . . I just heard Steve Alten on a mainstream AM talk show in Philadelphia today. He called the 9/11 truth movement HEROES, and
condemned Bill Clinton for slapping a 9/11 truther down.

We could have this voice on all the major media saying things like this, IF WE ALL DROVE THIS BOOK TO #1.

Or we could just do what Bob did, and show everyone how damn smart and elite we are and reject anyone new coming to this movement who doesn't fit some "purity" test.

Give me a break, people. Let's get off our *sses and drive this book to #1, by any means possible.

Show "fuck that dude" by HappyBOB

That was uncivil and

That was uncivil and uncalled for.

Even if we have serious differences in our viewpoints lets at least be more courteous when expressing our differing viewpoints.

These are some books the man you are cursing recommends on this website.

The CONSTITUTION is NOT going to "collapse" into pulverized dust no matter how much thermate/explosives or planes they throw at it


"His website leads to all major 9/11 truth research and activist websites."

His website misleads all to limited 9/11 research where any mention of Israel is forbidden.

How can that be? His website

How can that be?

His website links to

Which links to the very comments you have posted on Israel if people take the trouble to look!

Israelite involvement in 911 is a given considering the dancing Mossad agents and other evidence which have been posted here and other websites.

Suspicious Israelite behaviour on 911 is covered on occasion by numerous sitesl listed on Alten lists though not in as a comprehensive manner as one would always wish for.

But lets not forget the Saudi Royal Family and the Bin-Ladin Family's close connection to the Bush Regime, the Carlyle Group -the Iron Triangle as the say,

The International Military Industrial Complex carried out 911. It was an International Job. Not just the Israelites.

Steve Alten most likely still has his blindspots like all of us did at one time. He said on an interview with Jason Bermas - GCN Louder than Words - that he saw Loose Change AFTER writing the book. So in some ways he is still green.

The Truth Movement is growing in stages. We cannot attack a young branch just because we are more mature in our understanding of the matter.

I suggest we give the man a chance to spread the word out and we can further enlighten people who "wake up" and start asking serious questions.

Regardless, the Israelites are not the only culprits. This is far far bigger than them. They are a dangerous player, but not the only one.

The CONSTITUTION is NOT going to "collapse" into pulverized dust no matter how much thermate/explosives or planes they throw at it


they (the "men" behind the curtain) never censor or ban members for pushing sibel, the family members, the saudi royal family, alex jones, loose change, PFT, peter dale scott, etc... however, if you start making sense about atrocities done BY israel, well, you know how it works.

I am sure you are familiar with this

Nevertheless for the record, there are numerous enlightening comments here as well on the Israelite Factor. ( BTW, I did not vote you down)

Israel's Post-911 Economic Boom

The Likud Criminal Gang Behind 9/11 and the War on Terror

I thinks 911Blogger is being reasonable its coverage of Israelite involvement.

The CONSTITUTION is NOT going to "collapse" into pulverized dust no matter how much thermate/explosives or planes they throw at it


I took the liberty of blocking your account, wolfowitz. Considering your low opinion of the place, it's remarkable that you have bothered hanging for so long.

Regarding Israel, it's "Holocaust Revisionism" or "Denial" that we will have no truck with here;

Admittedly, I haven't blogged much on Israel or MOSSAD;

Sadly, prior to 911blogger, same pattern;


Yes, misrepresenting the site to try to make a point helps no one. Honest critique with research to support the positions is the best way to get concerns across.

Show "Those who have been" by juandelacruz2

Their role is a little more central....

"Regardless, the Israelites are not the only culprits. This is far far bigger than them. They are a dangerous player, but not the only one."

Israel is a little more central to matters than just a dangerous player.

By just surveying American politics, dual-citizens abound in our administration and are central figures in escalating matters to the point of warfare. Wolfowitz, a key architect of the Iraq war, is an easy one to identify and just welcomed back into the administration.

The list of dual citizens is lengthy and makes it obvious how much American politics has been infiltrated by Israeli-interests. I believe, it should be discussed as any of these other factors about our present predicament.

Also, Bush's recent visit to Israel leaves the impression the United States serves Israel's interests not the reverse. Bush going to lengths to deny the accuracy of his own government's intelligence to affirm the dangers of Iran seems to speak volumes, in my humble estimation.

It's important, in my view, to put everything into words. Without language a void is created where there was no discussion, and as a result, reflection and thought. I don't know much about the Mossad's involvemnt only coming across articles a few times. This is one of the main strategies the manipulators use to direct public opinion. It is as much by omission, public opinion can be shaped. It's simply steered away from any critical examination or light on roles or subjects too sensitive.

We need to hear more about the Mossad and Israeli's intent.

...don't believe them!

Israel has a history of

Israel has a history of getting away with its reprehensible, brutal occupation of Palestinian territory. The mainstream press and TV news coverage is very easy on Israeli policy while being patronizing and critical to the Palestinian point of view. This sympathetic (actually, controlled) media coverage is now being used to shield Israel's involvement in 9-11.

WTC 9-11-2001 was a Neocon-Zionist conspiracy,
but Jews DID NOT do 9-11 -
The WTC was destroyed by controlled demo-

Great stuff.

"the writings of all of the 911truth bloggers---probably the greatest literary movement in american history"
Very observant. There was a time when I saved some of the best blogs due to their literary quality but there's just so much great stuff it's hard to know where to begin and end.
Although I haven't read the book I like to think it will be good for the Truth Movement.

I haven't read the book yet

Interesting critiques you put forth. I also agree that there probably won't be any war with Iran.

This is very cool that Cynthia is plugging the book. However, I'm very concerned that she is running for a party that would greatly increase the size and scope of government control.

Google Video: CBC - Global Warming Doomsday Called Off

Green Party

>>a party that would greatly increase the size and scope of government control.

As an elected Green I'm not sure what you're talking about! You mean we wouldn't do what Ron Paul advocates and eliminate the Dept of Education and the UN?

This is the party that Nader chooses to support, and Nader has saved more lives than Bush has taken through a lifetime of working against the interests of the corporations and for the people.

Ron Paul sees capitalism as Milton Friedman see it, as the means to "freedom" --

"The death of economist Milton Friedman last week at the age of 94 marks a great loss for advocates of freedom everywhere. He was perhaps the most successful free-market economist of the 20th century, in terms of his real-world impact on politics and policy. Many modern politicians, including Ronald Reagan, considered him a major influence in their careers. Milton Friedman was a strong advocate of economic liberty who opposed government intervention in both the purely economic and broader social spheres of our society. He believed not only in laissez-faire capitalism, but also the larger cause of individual liberty in the political sense. I was proud to know Dr. Friedman for many decades, and considered him a friend."
Milton Friedman 1912-2006
Ron Paul, November 21, 2006,

Green Party's platform

Hi Victronix: I might be mistaken, but isn't part of their platform to expand HEW (health, education, welfare)?
Plus, do they not want to institute a tax on carbon dioxide emissions?

That's why I stated that they would increase the size of government. However, I must acknowledge that they would greatly shrink it in another area by ending the war on Iraq.

ps. regarding Friedman and Paul, their views are not identical, but they are very similar.


Decentralization is one of the stated values of the Green Party.

For the Record this is what Steve Alten says on his website

From Steve Alten:

The SHELL GAME is a fictional thriller that deals with very real life and death issues that affect all of us. These include PEAK OIL (are we running out?) and the events of 9/11 that led us into a war in Iraq. The plot of the book extrapolates from both of these issues (and others) in order to show the reader what a dangerous path the world has been placed upon.


This site contains links to many important websites and videos that are both informative and shocking in their implications. Some of these sites, however, may include disinformation threads. I do not support any hate group, holocaust denier, or radical who pushes space weapons, no plane theories, or any other claim meant to discredit the 9/11 Truth Movement. I fully support new investigations into the events of 9/11 to ascertain what really happened and to prosecute the guilty.


911 Links & Videos
We've included links to investigative sites, video documentaries, and articles so that you may come to your own conclusions about PEAK OIL and the events of 9/11. Because a democracy depends on an informed citizenry, we strongly recommend reading "Crossing the Rubicon" by Michael C. Ruppert, one of the most comprehensive investigative reports ever written, as well as the extensive library of work listed at and these other sites.


“9/11 Mysteries” Documentary (ONLINE FREE at below links – Runtime 91 minutes):



EUROPE (Scroll down a few inches for video play):

“Loose Change – Final Cut” Documentary:


911Truth Activist Organization Calling For: Investigation, Education, Accountability, Reform

Patriots Question 9/11
High Level Military, Intelligence, Architect, and Engineering Experts for a New 9/11 Investigation:

Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth, Analyzing the Physics of the World Trade Center Collapses:

Pilots for 9/11 Truth, Pilots and Aviation Professionals Seek the Truth Around the 9/11/2001 Events:

Scholars for 9/11 Truth & Justice:

Student Scholars for 9/11 Truth, Empowering Students Worldwide to Demand 9/11 Truth:

We Are Change is a National 9/11 Truth Action Organization:

“Loose Change – Final Cut” Documentary:

“Loose Change – Final Cut” Documentary:

Daniel Ellsberg Whistelblower Project:

Sibel Edmonds (FBI whistle blower) - Official Web Site:

The Patriots, Founded by Rtd. US Air Force Colonel, Robert Bowman, 9/11 Truth Activist

A Pioneer Among 9/11 Truth Seeking Research Sites:

9/11 Research Information Resources Site:

9/11 Family Steering Committee Calling for a New 9/11 Investigation:

Spreading Information on the Horrific Health Effects 9/11 is having on 1st Responders:


Paying Attention to 9/11 Related News and Event:

Muslim-Christian-Jewish Alliance for 9/11 Truth

9/11 News and Views Site:

Complete 9/11 Timeline Research Site:

9/11 Research and Documentary Site:

9/11 News and Research:

9/11 Researcher and Author, Peter Dale Scott:

9/11 Research Site, Particularly Focusing on the Collapse of World Trade Center 7

9/11 Activist Site, Empowering People to Demand a New 9/11 Investigation in Cities Worldwide:

9/11 Truth Activist Resources, including the famous “Deception Dollar”:

9/11 Citizens Watch, Working with Citizens and 9/11 Family Members Demanding 9/11 Truth:

Northern California 9/11 Truth Alliance, Activist Site Demanding 9/11 Truth:

New York 911Truth, Activist Site Demanding 9/11 Truth:

9/11 Truth Activist Organization – Boston Area

Tucson, Arizona, Activist Site Demanding 9/11 Truth:

Oregon Truth Alliance, Activist Site Demanding 9/11 Truth:

The San Jose/South Bay 911 Questions Meetup Group

Los Angeles Area Residents Demanding 9/11 Truth:

San Diego Area Residents Demanding 9/11 Truth:

Washington D.C. Area Residents Demanding 9/11 Truth:

Vermonters for a REAL 9/11 Investigation:

Colorado Area Residents Demanding 9/11 Truth:

The Houston 9/11 Truth Meetup Group:

Columbus, Ohio 9/11 truth:

The Minneapolis/St. Paul MN 9/11 Truth and Freedom Group:

Snowshoe Documentary Films:
for social and economic justice
9/11 Documentary Film Site:

Unanswered Questions
thinking for ourselves

A list of products to boycott.

"Analysis of false flag operations and suggestions for effective action in easily-readable chunks."

Pledge For America - History of False Flag Operations


Physics of WTC Collapse on 9/11 Metallurgy Research:


9/11 Truth Europe, Links to European sites on 9/11:

911oz - Australian Research on 9/11:

UK 911truth


Canadian / Int’l Magazine Reporting on 9/11 Truth Issues, and more:

The CONSTITUTION is NOT going to "collapse" into pulverized dust no matter how much thermate/explosives or planes they throw at it

For the record, here are the weblinks

in his list of recommended websites at the back of the book:

That's it. Not one 9/11 truth site. The page is otherwise blank.

And the only recommended book on 9/11 is Crossing the Rubicon, a good book as far as it goes but as much a peak oil book as a 9/11 book.

Overall, the message is that our oil under their sand is running out, the Muslims want to kill us, Iran wants to nuke us, and misguided but well-intentioned secret agents decided that the only way to save Western civilization is to do a false-flag nuke. Kind of like the 9/11 he briefly mentions, but on a larger scale. Except that he doesn't mention the most important part - the part that killed most of the people: the destruction of the buildings. All he talks about are unprovable claims about things that ultimately had nothing to do with most of the deaths, and have already been "explained" by the 9/11 Commission. War games, stand down, put options. Good luck proving any of that was other than as explained. Why didn't Alten write about the demolition of the buildings, when that was the most deadly criminal act, and when the criminal act is obvious and the evidence is preserved on video Even from a literary standpoint, the demolition of buildings and the nuking of a city are similar in quality though not scale. First they blew up a city block, then they blew up a city. But he can't bring himself to mention that in his book? I don't get it.

So on balance, too much fear- and hate-mongering, and too little reference to the facts of 9/11. Just subtle justification for 9/11 - peak oil and radical Islam.


>>Overall, the message is that our oil under their sand is running out, the Muslims want to kill us, Iran wants to nuke us, and misguided but well-intentioned secret agents decided that the only way to save Western civilization is to do a false-flag nuke.

Thanks. Do you mind if we quote you for a book review? And would you like to be credited, if so?

Could you please wait a couple of days?

It's probably OK but I want to read again and confirm that my assessment is fair. I think it is, but would like to check again, particularly the "misguided but well-intentioned" part. I'll email you with the credit information. Thanks.

Okay, thanks.

Another review thread is here --

Where would mine be posted?

I'll know by tomorrow if I want to go with that.

By the way, Truthmover said the "US nuclear physicist, whose father was killed in Nagasaki." Actually, his father was Chinese. His mother was Japanese and moved to China after her father was killed at Nagasaki. Turns out the Chinese were spying, just not Wen Ho Lee, and you have to watch the Japanese too. His mother's father was "'recruited' by the Emperor," you know.

I see you already posted it at Truth Move, which is fine. I have no idea what the intentions of the author are, and don't care. I'm just talking about the message it conveyed to me. I'll be honest -- that was a very broadbrush impression I got from skimming the book. I've read it closely now, and think I may have understated the case.

Anyway, I'd like to know where this will be posted. Thanks.


Very disappointing that there is no talk about the three towers being blown up in Shell Game. I will save my money and time. And I can't believe he didn't take the chance to promote 9/11 truth sites at the back of the book, what a shame.

"I will not withdraw from this war even if Laura and Barney are the only ones supporting me." -George W. Bush

Too late?

Based on what I'm hearing about it, I wonder if the only way this book will bring attention to 9/11 Truth is if the event it predicts, a false flag nuke attack, actually happens. Then maybe readers will make the connection but, alas it will be too late.

I read "The Shell Game"...

...and I thought it sucked. Terrible writing. Boring plot. Unenlightening garbage. And THIS from someone who is avidly interested in both 911 Truth and Peak Oil.

When I first heard about the book, I thought that Alten's goal was to weave a fictional presentation around the 911 Timeline and other chief 911 Truth sources. If written well, THAT would be the book everyone would want to read as it would tend to flesh out the blanks that everyone questions, such as
"What happened to the passengers on Flight 77 if it was a missile that actually struck the Pentagon?", or "How could so many people keep such an enormous conpiracy secret?".

But Steve Alten is an author who is not up to the daunting task of becoming expert on the real-life workings of black ops and secret government operations, etc. His background is in writing humdrum monster stories. "The Shell Game is quite uninteresting in it's pulpish, formulaic style. A totally forgettable novel.

I bought two copies with the intent of spreading them around. But I'm sorry I wasted the money on them. This book only marginally aids The 911 Truth Movement. If I were someone who had not read David Ray Griffin or Steven Jones, and I was trying to ascertain the merits of the Truth Movement's ideas, I would come away from "The Shell Game" with strong impression that Truthers were a bunch of fantasizing whackjobs.

The 911 Truth Movement needs that like a hole in the head.

OK, so you have read it..

"Terrible writing. Boring plot. Unenlightening garbage."

If this is the case. I can only agree with you. Haven't read the book and will not read it.

I heard an interview with him on a podcast. Not very exciting.

If you heard Alten on mainstream radio . . . then

If you heard Alten on mainstream radio . . . then you'd know that he attacked Bill Clinton for attacking a 9/11 truther . . . AND that Alten said 9/11 TRUTH ACTIVISTS ARE NATIONAL HEROES . . .

He then referred them to for MORE INFO . . . WHICH LEADS TO ALL MAJOR 9/11 TRUTH WEBSITES . . .




"But Steve Alten is an author who is not up to the daunting task of becoming expert on the real-life workings of black ops and secret government operations, etc. His background is in writing humdrum monster stories. "The Shell Game is quite uninteresting in it's pulpish, formulaic style. A totally forgettable novel."

Here's that list of his previous books. I saw this before I read the book and it didn't make me feel any great confidence in the project. Note that he wrote a book about the Lochness monster that supposedly contains real "evidence" of the monsters existence.

I also wrote a review of the book over on the TruthMove forum. It expresses many of the same concerns you and others have addressed here.

Seemingly off topic, I've been talking to a lot of people who got really excited about the movie "Cloverfield" due to its viral marketing campaign. And some of them appear to like the movie simply because they had convinced themselves it would be good. I would never spend the money on it, but talking to friends of mine who really appreciate movies, and even a trashy monster movie on occasion, I understand that its one of the worst movies to come out in some time.

Like many of us, I got excited about "The Shell Game" before it was released. And for the first few days after I read the book I actually felt myself trying to like it. But after a week I had to admit that it was nothing like what I had hoped it would be.

We need to do our best not to let hype stymie our critical thinking. It can happen to the best of us.

International Truth Movement

My God, these 9/11 truthers are behaving like the prissy Princes

Who are these 9/11 truth people, I've never heard of who are like "Eeeewww, this Alten's not as smart as me, so he doesn't deserve to be in my precious perfect fundamentalist 9/11 truth movement."??

Why is it that most of the people who've really done something in this movement, supported the success of "The Shell Game" from the beginning . . . but all these "truthers" who I've never heard of are now crawling out of the woodwork attacking it, and also attacking anyone who supports its success.


“. . . they [the majority of Americans] shall come to realize what I now realize… that the 9/11 Truth Movement are the real patriots in 21st century America!"

-- Steve Alten, New York Times Best Selling Novelist (author of “The Shell Game”)


We, the undersigned, urge everyone seeking truth, peace and justice, to not only purchase this new novel, "The Shell Game," but also to email out this appeal to all you know who seek truth, peace and justice in the form of 9/11 truth coming out. In turn, please urge them to do the same with all their contacts and urge them to do the same. We can break 9/11 truth open if we work together and focus on this project for the next 30 days.

Yours in 9/11 truth, peace and justice,

Bill Douglas, 911 Visibility Project
Dr. Steven Jones – Physicist who discovered controlled demolition substances in WTC debris
Janice Matthews - Executive Director
David Ray Griffin - 9/11 Researcher and Author
Kevin Ryan -former UL chemistry laboratory manager & NIST report whistle blower
Dr. Robert Bowman - Rtd. Colonel US Air Force, 9/11 truth leader;
Rob Balsamo – Pilots for 9/11 Truth
Carol Brouillet - Organizer of 1st National 9/11 Truth Conference in San Francisco
Mike Berger - "Improbable Collapse" Documentary Producer - 911Truth Spokesman
David Kubiak - Board member
Kevin Barrett – Muslim/Christian/Jewish Alliance for 9/11 Truth
Michael Wolsey –
Peter Dale Scott – Author of, “The Road to 9/11: Wealth, Empire, and the Future of America,” (University of California Press., 2007)

The original 9/11 truth hero in Congress, Cynthia McKinney, recently held up a copy of "The Shell Game" at a press conference!!

You've got a lot of nerve

I have read the works of many of the people above, taking on my own judgment what I agree with and not taking the rest. I don't care if they like this book or not. I don't. In fact, I think the book is fundamentally flawed, and I will say it whether you like or not.

In addition to fear-mongering and hate-mongering against Muslims, he ignores the demolitions, and at around page 468 suggests that a real investigation of 9/11 would bring anarchy in the U.S. and hostilities throughout the Arab world, and that a coverup would "preserve the state of the union." He's talking about the nuking of L.A., but the same argument he makes would apply to 9/11. Since you like all caps, WHY IS HE SAYING SUCH A THING? THIS IS INIMICALLY OPPOSED TO THE PURPOSES OF THIS MOVEMENT! The book not only justifies 9/11, it justifies the coverup.

Whether you like it or not, and whether the people above see that or not, that's the way I see it and there is no way in hell I would recommend this poison to anyone. Got it?

I never heard of you, either, until you started this campaign. Doesn't mean you haven't been out there doing what you think is right. Good for you, Bill, but don't you dare question my actions because I disagree with this book. And the idea that this is intellectual snobbery is absurd. He has a graduate degree and chose to write a book about 9/11, and for whatever reason ignored the most important and most easily proven part, the demolitions. Instead, he suggests, Promis software caused the towers to disintegrate.

I've done what I can for over six years, which isn't much and isn't nearly enough. I know I was speaking out long before some of the people above. Which isn't to brag, be critical of others for taking longer to recognize the fraud, or say that I have done more.

I called my local NPR station in late 2001 or early 2002, during an interview of Salon's Scott Shuger on the military response on 9/11. Having read Jared Israel's seminal articles questioning whether there was a standdown, I stated that I thought the official story of delayed military response was implausible.

I also wrote this letter to CSPAN in June 2002, when I was still under the influence of the completely unproven, and as such slanderous and hate-mongering, story about Muslim hijackers that Steve Alten is now pushing.

Below are some things I said right after the attacks, where I am clearly under the influence of the still unproven official story. I think that Alten takes the story back 5 years, to a very flawed understanding I have spent much time overcoming.

12 Sep 2001

Re: FW: Atrocity in America

"America is responsible for creating such feelings of immense hatred against itself and would be better protected in the future if it only pursued a policy of co-operation, friendship, fair trade and justice with all foreign countries. David Roberts"

I agree with this completely. Which is not at all to say, and I doubt Roberts is saying, that yesterday's attack was in any way justified.

A local columnist,Joel Connelly of the Seattle Post-Intelligencer wrote today: "A rule in dealing with evil in the modern world is that those who sow the wind must reap the whirlwind. The evil people responsible for yesterday's deeds must feel what Frederick the Great called 'the slashing sword of retribution.'"

This kind of talk will lead to the deaths of thousands if not millions more innocent, powerless people, including more, not less, attacks on Americans. By Connelly's morality and logic, I must believe that yesterday's attack was justified retaliation, because I believe we as Americans, knowing that our government was killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis yet doing nothing about it, are responsible for not trying to stop those killings.

I don't accept Connelly's logic. Yesterday's mass murder was evil.

Americans need to reflect, including self-reflection, on the causes of yesterday's violence, rather than act with mindless vengeance. But this is not happening on a mass scale, nor is it likely to. Instead the government and corporate authoritarians in our country will use this opportunity to increase the power of the military and intelligence agencies, and further decrease our civil rights.

13 Sep 2001

Re: FW: Atrocity in America

I realize that my view assumes a lot, namely that Osama bin Laden or whoever did the attacks on NYC and the Pentagon acted, at least in part, out of revenge for the Iraqi sanctions.

14 Sep 2001

Re: NO RUSH TO WAR!/O'Reilly Factor/FOX/13Sept2001

O'Reilly said: "[I]t's going to come down on Osama bin Laden first and maybe some of these rouge states later." Since "it" is bombs, I think it is important to know which states warrant bombing, if any.

"The papers and air waves are full of calls for retaliation regardless of the civilian deaths. My local paper is printing letters to the editor with metaphors such as "vermin" and "kill the hive to get all the bees." There is a good chance that our government is going to kill many thousands of innocent civilians in responding to the WTC/Pentagon attacks. If it happens, I call that state terrorism. What do you call it?"

17 Sep 2001

Re: Criminal Negligence or Treason

"The below article states that the military did not know that Flight 77 was headed for the Pentagon until 9:31 a.m., twelve minutes before the plane hit the Pentagon, when the military was told so by the Federal Aviation Administration.

"This contradicts the information in the New York Times article: "During the hour or so that American Airlines Flight 77 was under the control of hijackers, up to the moment it struck the west side of the Pentagon, military officials in a command center on the east side of the building were urgently talking to law enforcement and air traffic control officials about what to do."

25 Sep 2001

Re: Bush Keeps Media in Dark on Attacks
"We can't release the evidence, because it's going to a grand jury. But during this criminal proceeding, we reserve the right to kill the accused and any accomplices or accessories to the crime." (sarcasm)

26 Sep 2001

Re: Bush Keeps Media in Dark on Attacks

Frank: "From another angle : I thought we were going to arrest him and all others involved and bring them to trial, if they go for armed resistance to the law enforcers, well anything could happen."

Yes, that makes sense and explains the contradiction I raised, which is not a contradiction if the mission is law enforcement. It just seems to me the U.S. military is being deployed with a broader mission against countries like Iraq and Libya, which William Safire of the New York Times called "preemptive retaliation."

9 Oct 2001

Re: More on Bushladen Carlyle Group:George Soros & James Baker, part of the Family

The question of "who benefits?" (from the WTC attacks) aside, shouldn't this money be given to the victims or their families?

25 Oct 2001

Re: (Fwd) At war with NATO

I suspect that the day and time were chosen to maximize the psychological impact of the televised images of the planes hitting the towers. The perpetrators obviously showed heinous disregard for human life, and maximizing loss of life may also have been their intent, but I think as part of a broader goal of shocking the American people rather than as a purpose in itself.

1 Dec 2001

Re: FW: [Intlawprofessor-l] FW: No War Against Afghanistan! (rev.)

Much more than in the Quirin case, the public needs to know what happened leading up to 9/11. A public trial might reveal information that is not only embarrassing, as in Quirin, but might reveal misfeasance or malfeasance by powerful officials.

5 Dec 2001

Re: FW: Wedgie&New World Order: Op-Ed Re Military Tribunals

> In federal court, as well, there are severe limitations on what evidence > can be heard by a jury. Hearsay statements of probative value, admissible >in military commissions, European criminal courts and international courts, >cannot be considered in a trial by jury. Historically, Anglo-American >juries were thought incapable of weighing out-of-court statements, and the >Supreme Court attached many of these jury rules to the Constitution.

Wedgewood seems to be saying there shouldn't be trial by jury for terrorists. Perhaps Professor Wedgewood would rather practice law in Europe. In the United States, we try people by jury, and we restrict hearsay. She is talking about the U.S. Government doing the trial, right?

>So bin Laden's telephone call to his mother, telling her that "something >big" was imminent,could not be entered into evidence if the source of >information was his mother's best friend.

If Professor Wedgewood could not get this evidence in under one of many exceptions to the hearsay rule, she must not have been a very good federal prosecutor.

>In a terrorist trial, there are few eyewitnesses willing to testify, >because conspiracy cells are compartmentalized, and witnesses fear >revenge.

Witness protection programs. I think the Mafia is better at finding people in the United States than would be foreign terrorists. Does the Professor suggest extending this "trial" format to domestic organized crime prosecutions?

Or it might not. We'll may never really know, just as we may never really know if Her Majesty's Government's report is sufficient evidence of bin Ladin's complicity to justify the attack on Afghanistan.

28 Jan 2002

Re: Washington Post fails to explain

This would mean that he knew nothing about the attacks until 9:05, which seems hard to believe. In order not to contradict the Washington Post account, one would have to assume that senior advisor Karl Rove came to Bush after the second plane hit with some very stale information, that he thought it was a small plane that hit the World Trade Center.

What if anything this means I do not know. Maybe I should take Frank's advice and choose blissful ignorance. All I have to do is believe.

19 Jan 2002


This distinction between fighters dedicated to defense from military attack, and dual-purpose fighters that handle both defense and more general maintenance of air sovereignty, is made in both sources cited by ML:

[The above source is important - shows that the quickest response fighters were greatly reduced after Cold War but many quick response fighters remained.]

13 Jan 2002


> > You write: >Many are now pointing to the Operation Northwood plan of the early 1960s, in which >military planners allegedly considered the possibility of a terrorist >attack on U.S. citizens to discredit Cuba and build support for military >action. > >"Code named Operation Northwoods, the plans reportedly included the >possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on >the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and even >orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities." >Not on the scale of 9/11, but the concept is the same. > >My comment: > Allegedly considered the possibility, but didn't, hardly evidence of anything is it.

If true, it is evidence that the military considered killing innocent people to justify war.

>Criticism is ok but as I have said before I think the aim is frequently nothing other, than to attack your own country

I am not attacking my country. I am stating that the possibility exists, and should be considered, that individuals and groups within my government were somehow involved in allowing these attacks to happen. Questioning my government is not the same as attacking my country, and considering the possibility that a coup may have taken place is not an attack on the government as a whole.'

7 Jan 2002

Re: FAQ # 2 (expanded) - "Planes DID scramble on 9-11. Emperor's Clothes is wrong."

Jared Israel raises excellent questions based on public statements of U.S. government and military officials. These same questions were asked by Senators at General Myers' September 13 confirmation hearing. General Myers, a former pilot and head of NORAD, did not provide any reasonable explanation. He states he convened a crisis action team immediately after the second WTC tower was hit, yet does not know the time fighter jets were scrambled. These questions have yet to e adequately answered.

Jared Israel's questions are legitimate, and were in fact asked by U.S. senators. Branding Jared Israel's questions a fantasy because the U.S government would never do such a thing does not answer these questions. The conclusion -- was it negligence or intentional or neither --- is less important initially than just getting a plausible explanation. Which I have yet to see.

7 Jan 2002

Re: FAQ # 2 (expanded) - "Planes DID scramble on 9-11. Emperor's Clothes is wrong."

Our military establishment, on which we spend billions per year, has provided no reasonable explanation for their failure to defend the country.

Since posting last night, I read in the Atlantic Monthly of December 2001 that there are two precedents for terrorists hijacking planes for suicide attacks on cities --- "the 1986 hijacking in Karachi of a Pan Am plane,which the terrorists planned to crash into the center of Tel Aviv, and the 1994 hijacking in Algiers of an Air France plane by members of the Armed Islamic Group, who planned to crash it into the heart of Paris." (Atlantic Montlhy 12/01 p. 139, book review of Germs: Biological Weapons and America's Secret War, available online at )

This places into question military statements that planners had never conceived of the possibility of such an attack.

It would be interesting to know what happened in those hijackings --- were they thwarted and how?

Frank, why is it surprising that I ask for a plausible explanation of the military's actions and inactions on 9/11?

8 Jan 2002

Re: FAQ # 2 (expanded) - "Planes DID scramble on 9-11. Emperor's Clothes is wrong."

I'm not stating that these reports support the argument made by Jared. They could lead to a much different conclusion. They could also be a diversion from a much more disturbing conclusion, that the 9/11 attacks were allowed to happen as a means of building support for an already- planned invasion of Afghanistan, of destroying civil liberties, and of completing America's transformation into a police state of, by, and for the corporations. Which is what I see happening, whether it was planned or opportunistic.

Frank, you refuse to consider the possibility that persons within the U.S. government were somehow complicit in what happened, and seem to be deeply offended by the mere suggestion that this is worth investigating.

I heard a story which I cannot confirm,and may not be true, but still allows a useful exercise:

An allegation was repeated in a U.S. newspaper that the Russian government, or persons within the government, bombed or allowed to be bombed the department store in Moscow as a means of bolstering waning support for the war in Chechnya.

My question for you, Frank, is whether you would be willing to consider the possibility that such a thing could happen in Russia? How about in Iraq? Some banana republic? If so, why not in the United States?

8 Jan 2002

Re: FAQ # 2 (expanded) - "Planes DID scramble on 9-11. Emperor's Clothes is wrong."

I did further research on the 1986 Karachi and 1994 Algiers hijackings. The Atlantic Monthly article is the only source claiming that the Karachi hijackers planned to suicide bomb Tel Aviv -- all other accounts state that the plan was to compel release of prisoners in Cyprus. This hijacking was stopped on the ground because the hijackers couldn't get to the upper level cockpit quick enough and the pilots escaped. The Air France plane hijacked in Algiers had to land in Marseille because it ran out of fuel and commandos retook the plane. The French authorities stated that the intent was to blow up the plane over Paris. I find it hard to believe the counterterrorism planners and the military did not develop plans to respond to incidents such as this.

11 Jan 2002


>#Wingnut, beyond its basic meaning I am lost?#

Sorry for the colloquialism. I think you might say "nutter." "Wingnut" is American for someone who is willing to entertain the possibility that people within the government would attack American citizens, and/or believe in the Illuminati and lizard people ala David Icke. I am within the former group, as I believe all citizens should be. I am not within the latter group, though I find myself in agreement with some of what they write about the real world. I assure you that gives me great pause.

># My comment re- fantasy related to his over-all approach, opinions, hearsay, rumour, mixed in with non-facts, all claimed to be evidence and a conclusion, or at least a very strong hint of a USA government active participation, when a far more likely reason other than those given was at worse, an attempt to cover up incompetence. # >

I see Jared quoting mainstream newspapers, and asking logical questions about inconsistent or implausible official stories. Now it could be there was a sound national security reason for the story to change after a few days to incorporate the fact (claim?) that jets took off from Langley. For example, not revealing capabilities/vulnerabilities for response to new attack. But for a people wanting a plausible explanation for why their military failed to protect them in the first place, it seems suspicious for the story to change. Not that the new fact creates an plausible explanation.

>#Yes Jared's so called "only logical conclusion" is the one he favours, it is the target and probably minimum target of his discourse, he builds on flimsy foundations and reaches a conclusion that fits his apparent agenda of attacking the governments the "West"#

Even if Jared has reached a wrong conclusion about the governments of the West based on a flimsy foundation, how does that compare with the governments of the West, who have killed thousands of Afghans and revoked civil liberties based on flimsy foundations?

These flimsy foundations, at least as revealed to the public, are (1) that Osama did it, the purported basis for attacking Afghanistan, and (2) that the attacks could have been stopped if it weren't for restraints on law enforcement and intelligence, which is the unsupported premise of the "USA Patriot Act." (abominable name!!!)

>#Yes I am offended that anyone should be accused of complicity in such a horrendous act when the justification is so utterly flimsy.# >

Fair enough. I agree that accusations should not be made lightly, though somehow this standard goes out the window when its time for demonization of the leader of a country the U.S. wants to attack.

I think there are enough unanswered questions to require a congressional investigation.

These questions are laid out at:

>#My previous remarks on conditions for a statement of possibilities holds, the countries you name pick up more weighting due to their human rights records. #

My country has a record of killing its own citizens. Usually, but not always, its citizens in uniform, and over a long period. I refer to atomic testings in Utah, Gulf War syndrome, anthrax vacccinations. Many are now pointing to the Operation Northwood plan of the early 1960s, in which military planners allegedly considered the possibility of a terrorist attack on U.S. citizens to discredit Cuba and build support for military action.

"Code named Operation Northwoods, the plans reportedly included the possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and even orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities."

Not on the scale of 9/11, but the concept is the same.

>#I m not really very satisfied with my response, but it is all I can manage for the time being, enjoy your reading of Jared's FAQ, I sure he will be most grateful and I am sure his need is greater than mine# >

I think Jared is doing the American people a great service and is a true patriot. So am I and everyone else who cares enough about their country to criticize its government. If Jared derives satisfaction from that fine, but I don't think he is starving for my or anyone else's affirmation.

1 Feb 2002

Re: "911: LETTING IT HAPPEN," By Ken McCarthy

The McCarthy piece provides other indications that the possibility of terrorists hijacking of planes must have been foreseen. I've already mentioned actual precedents: the 1994 hijacking in Algiers where terrorists were foiled in plan to suicide attack Pairs, and possibly the 1986 hijacking in Karachi (reports vary as to the intent of the terrorists in the latter case).

Re: "911: LETTING IT HAPPEN," By Ken McCarthy

>comment that Middle Eastern terrorists have been training for this exact >kind of mission since the 1980s is doubtful if "exact" is really meant, >however it is not important.

Well of course it is important --- "exact" means that the specific means of attack by hijacked plane was considered. This means two things:

1. Military responses to this scenario should have been in place,

2. Reports of a Minnesota flight instructor about a suspicious guy taking flying lessons should have been taken much more seriously; instead FBI agents in Minnesota were hindered in the investigation by their superiors.


and so on.

Shell Game

I am halfway through The Shell Game and I think it is terrific - as a "historical novel," and a tool of 9-11 truth. I have been immersed in 9-11 truth for two years, know a lot about it and did cringe a few times at statements in the book. But overall, the connecting of the dots to many pieces of the puzzle (that leave so many confused to the point of abandonment of the search for truth), is superb.

Steve: No, no, no .... vote "receipts" on electronic machines will not solve the problem. The receipt says what you want it to say. The memory card says what "they" want it to say. You should have been reading We have to have hand counted paper ballots.

That goofy blogger who wants Alten to solve all the factual holes in 9-11 with the right answers is completely nuts.

He can adopt my fantasy: The people on plane 77 are all living the good life on some Mediterranean island, watching Fox news and laughing it up big time. Bush is going to pardon them just before he leaves office in case they are charged with abetting a criminal conspiracy. Or, alternatively, Ted Olson really was fed up with his wife, Barbara, and had a cutie on the side he wanted to marry without a messy divorce, and what's another plane full of people in a scheme for the greater good? Dump the plane and all in it into the ocean at the Bermuda triangle.