Sorry, no point in mincing words. Yeah there are degrees, but I will never trust a person who engaged in torture willingly. Yes, I do understand no win situations where they put a gun to your head and its him or you.

Not talking about that. I'm talking about the "Private Lynndie Englands" and anyone else who went along, didn't object or speak out or even just say "fuck no, I can't stop YOU, but I'M not doing that!".

Yeah, the people higher up putting them in that sitch are more responsible and should be beaten in public(IMHO)--but the people doing it are still responsible. You can never trust someone like that again--someone who inflicted pain on someone who was no threat--and in many cases enjoyed it. Just look at the pics. Those people are GONE.
______________________________________
http://coljennysparks.blogspot.com/
http://truthaction.org/forum/
http://www.911blacklist.org/

9/11 worked.

Two points to keep in mind here, the real reasons for torture in general, and the reasons this group wants it this time.

The best explanation in general: torture is like terrorism. It's political theatre, not meant for the victims of the moment, nor for the reasons given as its cover story. The real subject of torture is the public that is meant to know about it: whether through official acknowledgements or through leaks and rumors later denied, torture is meant to terrify and cow the populace which knows that they are within reach of the state that practices it. You might as well equate the two, since terrorism by definition is violence whose primary intention is to terrify its audience and prepare them for further molding by the perps. As such, state torture may be the purest form of "state-sponsored terrorism."

The effects on the victim(s) are, politically speaking, "overburden" -- an incidental but necessary cost of the business. The effects on the material authors of the acts, the actual persons carrying out the torture acts, simply run the gamut from dehumanization to sadistic entertainment.

Keeping in mind the central message of 911lbogger.com (which I believe to be true), the perps of the US torture policy aren't seriously looking for information from the prisoners. They could care less about the efficiency of any "intelligence" thus gathered, and they care not one bit about the prisoners themselves. They may care something about the effects on the military, from the people given the job of torturing, to the chain of command ordered to accomodate it, to the more general military, intelligence, and governmental organizations gradually corroded by it presence. If they do care, it's precisely because they DO want people to be seduced and corrupted, or cowed into acquiescence, as a part of the general program of turning such organizations from defense against external threats to oppression of internal dissent.

I also believe the US public has been meant to know of the torture, in order to get us used to the idea of the US government acting with brutality against whoever it deems an "enemy", essentially a big experiment in the efficacy of the "Stockholm effect" -- to get us used to approaching the government as supplicants, not citizens. Actually, it's important to note that this can work both psychologically on those who don't question the cover stories, and rationally on those who don't believe a word the government says.

There is some slight possibility some of those in the chains of command think they're actually doing some good by ignoring the experience of the "mainstream" military and intelligence institutions. To the extent they really do think they "know better," we can be sure these institutions are having their readiness and performance degraded as well, for that means in any investigations where information really is needed, these useless policies of sadism disguised as realpolitick will continue to allow their adherents to blindly spin a fictional world for themselves, incapable of performing real defense against real threats. They will only be capable of turning every real-world challenge into another bit actor in their psycho-drama, with every failure becoming another excuse to look for "sabotage" by imagined traitors. They will be blind to seeing that the reason for their inability to effect the world effectively lies in the myth they've trapped themselves in.
The more they believe their own BS, the faster they will consign themselves to failure.

With any luck, we will figure out how to keep from being dragged down with them. I sincerely hope those who are not moved by the defense of our freedom will understand this is also a threat to power. A power structure that plans on surviving via "synthetic terror" and institutionalized torture is a power structure that has stopped growing, stopped adapting, and is rapidly becoming politically neurotic. It is an expression of the elite's failure of imagination in engaging its real environment. It means the elite has no realistic plans for exploration, development or investment in new resources and capital. It is turning in on itself, and consuming as resources that which it used to relate to as capital -- the cultural equivalent of kwashiorkor. Adoption of these policies is an implicit admission of failure as an elite, and a subtle hint at their intentions of taking everyone on a slow, collective suicide.

I sincerely hope those still in a position of some influence would think very seriously about this, for the lack of ideas about survival on the part of such an elite does not mean such ideas don't exist; merely that the elite under question has forbidden themselves from considering or acting upon them.

it makes people say what you want them to say.

I agree.

A few weeks back I attended a Laurie Hawn town hall meeting here in Edmonton(Canada's MP Secretary to the Defence) , The question of the 15 year old Omar Khadr came up " Why was Canada not trying to get Omar out of Gitmo someone asked? Other countries such as Briton and Australia have rescued their young citizens ..why not Canada? ..Laurie's eyes lit up as he began condemning this young man for having a bad family involved with terrorism ...Laurie promised his government has absolutely no intentions of interfering with the U. S. over his detention (torture) at gitmo.
Someone from the audience bellowed...BUT HE'S A CANADIAN! ...didn't matter...Laurie remained silent and gave the impression he did not give a shit if he was Canadian or not...I wondered to myself if a white guy or anyone other than a Muslim would have gotten the same treatment by our government...This kid was alleged to have killed an American Medic... He says he didn't kill anyone...(If he's proven guilty ...he should do his time in jail in my opinion) but Its interesting to note that most average folk up here in Canada don't give a dam about his situation regardless of the excellent efforts by main stream media giving this kid a break with coverage and sympathy over his torture..Perhaps the racism US networks (FOX NEWS and CNN News) imported via the Glenn Becks and Bill O Reilly's has created a hateful spin into the living rooms and into the hearts of most Canadians...sucks to be a Muslim and dark skinned in Canada these days...Today the Edmonton Journal gave Omar front page and 2 pages that followed Omar's sad story...ask around and you'll find folks here don't give a shit about Omar and quickly judge him as a terrorist... I have always felt Omar was just another victim of 9/11..a kid in the wrong place at the wrong time and most likely the wrong color skin". Sad to be Canadian these days friends, sad to be Omar...he needs help as time is quickly running out for this lad !

http://itn.co.uk/news/46cbb5d5c75a4e8ad87a59bde27dddaf.html

Great article,

I'd like to add a paradigm explanation on the situation:

It works, if your aims are:
- To force false confessions.
- To force false testimonies.

So, if what you are looking are people to blame (your) crimes to, torture is the only way to go.

Of course, this isn't what people think of when discussing the validity of "interrogation techniques", but to those in the know, it is easy to lie about it, just because to them, "they work" means a different thing than to the rest ;) -and they do it with a half-smile in their face, because they are laughing at you.