Support 911Blogger


Bombshell: Bin Laden worked for US until 9/11

From Luke Ryland's blog Against All Enemies (links at original):

Former FBI translator Sibel Edmonds dropped a bombshell on the Mike Malloy radio show, guest-hosted by Brad Friedman (audio, partial transcript).

In the interview, Sibel says that the US maintained 'intimate relations' with Bin Laden, and the Taliban, "all the way until that day of September 11."

These 'intimate relations' included using Bin Laden for 'operations' in Central Asia, including Xinjiang, China. These 'operations' involved using al Qaeda and the Taliban in the same manner "as we did during the Afghan and Soviet conflict," that is, fighting 'enemies' via proxies.

As Sibel has previously described, and as she reiterates in this latest interview, this process involved using Turkey (with assistance from 'actors from Pakistan, and Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia') as a proxy, which in turn used Bin Laden and the Taliban and others as a proxy terrorist army.

Control of Central Asia
The goals of the American 'statesmen' directing these activities included control of Central Asia's vast energy supplies and new markets for military products.

The Americans had a problem, though. They needed to keep their fingerprints off these operations to avoid a) popular revolt in Central Asia ( Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan), and b) serious repercussions from China and Russia. They found an ingenious solution: Use their puppet-state Turkey as a proxy, and appeal to both pan-Turkic and pan-Islam sensibilities.

Turkey, a NATO ally, has a lot more credibility in the region than the US and, with the history of the Ottoman Empire, could appeal to pan-Turkic dreams of a wider sphere of influence. The majority of the Central Asian population shares the same heritage, language and religion as the Turks.

In turn, the Turks used the Taliban and al Qaeda, appealing to their dreams of a pan-Islamic caliphate (Presumably. Or maybe the Turks/US just paid very well.)

According to Sibel:

This started more than a decade-long illegal, covert operation in Central Asia by a small group in the US intent on furthering the oil industry and the Military Industrial Complex, using Turkish operatives, Saudi partners and Pakistani allies, furthering this objective in the name of Islam.

Uighurs
Sibel was recently asked to write about the recent situation with the Uighurs in Xinjiang, but she declined, apart from saying that "our fingerprint is all over it."

Of course, Sibel isn't the first or only person to recognize any of this. Eric Margolis, one of the best reporters in the West on matters of Central Asia, stated that the Uighurs in the training camps in Afghanistan up to 2001:

"were being trained by Bin Laden to go and fight the communist Chinese in Xinjiang, and this was not only with the knowledge, but with the support of the CIA, because they thought they might use them if war ever broke out with China."

And also that:

"Afghanistan was not a hotbed of terrorism, these were commando groups, guerrilla groups, being trained for specific purposes in Central Asia."

In a separate interview, Margolis said:

"That illustrates Henry Kissinger's bon mot that the only thing more dangerous than being America's enemy is being an ally, because these people were paid by the CIA, they were armed by the US, these Chinese Muslims from Xinjiang, the most-Western province.

The CIA was going to use them in the event of a war with China, or just to raise hell there, and they were trained and supported out of Afghanistan, some of them with Osama Bin Laden's collaboration. The Americans were up to their ears with this."

Rogues Gallery
Last year, Sibel came up with a brilliant idea to expose some of the criminal activity that she is forbidden to speak about: she published eighteen photos, titled "Sibel Edmonds’ State Secrets Privilege Gallery," of people involved the operations that she has been trying to expose. One of those people is Anwar Yusuf Turani, the so-called 'President-in-exile' of East Turkistan (Xinjiang). This so-called 'government-in-exile' was 'established' on Capitol Hill in September, 2004, drawing a sharp rebuke from China.

Also featured in Sibel's Rogues Gallery was 'former' spook Graham Fuller, who was instrumental in the establishment of Turani's 'government-in-exile' of East Turkistan. Fuller has written extensively on Xinjiang, and his "Xinjiang Project" for Rand Corp is apparently the blueprint for Turani's government-in-exile. Sibel has openly stated her contempt for Mr. Fuller.

Susurluk
The Turkish establishment has a long history of mingling matters of state with terrorism, drug trafficking and other criminal activity, best exemplified by the 1996 Susurluk incident which exposed the so-called Deep State.

Sibel states that "a few main Susurluk actors also ended up in Chicago where they centered 'certain' aspects of their operations (Especially East Turkistan-Uighurs)."

One of the main Deep State actors, Mehmet Eymur, former Chief of Counter-Terrorism for Turkey's intelligence agency, the MIT, features in Sibel's Rogues Gallery. Eymur was given exile in the US. Another member of Sibel's gallery, Marc Grossman was Ambassador to Turkey at the time that the Susurluk incident exposed the Deep State. He was recalled shortly after, prior to the end of his assignment, as was Grossman's underling, Major Douglas Dickerson, who later tried to recruit Sibel into the spying ring.

The modus operandi of the Susurluk gang is the same as the activities that Sibel describes as taking place in Central Asia, the only difference is that this activity was exposed in Turkey a decade ago, whereas the organs of the state in the US, including the corporate media, have successfully suppressed this story.

Chechnya, Albania & Kosovo
Central Asia is not the only place where American foreign policy makers have shared interests with Bin Laden. Consider the war in Chechnya. As I documented here, Richard Perle and Stephen Solarz (both in Sibel's gallery) joined other leading neocon luminaries such as Elliott Abrams, Kenneth Adelman, Frank Gaffney, Michael Ledeen, James Woolsey, and Morton Abramowitz in a group called the American Committee for Peace in Chechnya (ACPC). For his part, Bin Laden donated $25 million to the cause, as well as numerous fighters, and technical expertise, establishing training camps.

US interests also converged with those of al-Qaeda in Kosovo and Albania.

Of course, it is not uncommon for circumstances to arise where 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend.' On the other hand, in a transparent democracy, we expect a full accounting of the circumstances leading up to a tragic event like 9/11. The 9/11 Commission was supposed to provide exactly that.

State Secrets
Sibel has famously been dubbed the most gagged woman in America, having the State Secrets Privilege imposed on her twice. Her 3.5 hour testimony to the 9/11 Commission has been entirely suppressed, reduced to a single footnote which refers readers to her classified testimony.

In the interview, she says that the information that was classified in her case specifically identifies that the US was using Bin Laden and the Taliban in Central Asia, including Xinjiang. In the interview, Sibel reiterates that when invoking the gag orders, the US government claims that it is protecting " 'sensitive diplomatic relations,' protecting Turkey, protecting Israel, protecting Pakistan, protecting Saudi Arabia..." This is no doubt partially true, but it is also true that they are protecting themselves too, and it is a crime in the US to use classification and secrecy to cover up crimes.

As Sibel says in the interview:

I have information about things that our government has lied to us about... those things can be proven as lies, very easily, based on the information they classified in my case, because we did carry very intimate relationship with these people, and it involves Central Asia, all the way up to September 11.

Summary
The bombshell here is obviously that certain people in the US were using Bin Laden up to September 11, 2001.

It is important to understand why: the US outsourced terror operations to al Qaeda and the Taliban for many years, promoting the Islamization of Central Asia in an attempt to personally profit off military sales as well as oil and gas concessions.

The silence by the US government on these matters is deafening. So, too, is the blowback.

WOW.... that is a bombshell!

No wonder this woman was under gag orders, huh? Thank God she is defying them now and making stunning announcements. This really hurts the official story, imo. Not only has the gvt. failed to prove OBL's involvement in 9/11, but now we have credible evidence that he was still an operative up until the attacks.

Most everyone already knows that OBL was on the CIA's payroll in the early 80's..... now we see that this relationship continued. This story needs to be widely distributed and Sibel should be interviewed by the NYC CAN commissioners regardless of whether or not they get ballot access. They can still convene and publish a report!

That fits to the Bin Laden story in the balkan area

as german researcher Jürgen Elsässer pointed out:

After Dayton in 1995, we see Chechnya war start, then Kosovo, then Macedonia then 9/11. What’s common to all 5 of these events is Islamic militants and al-Qaeda. Is there a global coordination of these events and if so what’s the goal?

The spider in the net is MPRI, a subcontractor of the Pentagon. They took over the Arab/Iranian weapons-smuggling in 1995, helped the Mujahadeen to "liberate" Sarajevo in September 1995, took the best Mujahadeen fighters after Dayton on their own payroll, trained them with the help of Turkish army and sent them to Kosovo and later to Macedonia. I could not fin a link between Chechnya and MPRI, but Aukai Collins, an American Mujahadeen, who fought in Chechnya and had contacts with some of the 9/11 bombers, was at least on the payroll of FBI and CIA. Not Al Qaeda is in the center of all these events, but American secret services, which used Al Qaeda.

Two of the 9/11 hijackers were veteran jihadists in Bosnia. What did they do in Bosnia that made them so exceptionally qualified to kill Americans?

Not two, but five: Al Hazmi and Al Midhar (Plane Nr.3/Pentagon), Mohammed Atta (Plane Nr. 1/WTC) and the "Masterminds" Binalshibh and Khalid Sheikh Mohamed. Al Hazmi and Al Midhar were from Jan. 2000 until 9/11 under surveillance of US-Secret Services as was Atta's flat in Hamburg-Harburg. Binalshibh and Sheikh Mohamed are in US-custody since their arrest in 2002/2003 and are the main witnesses for the Pentagon-Version of 9/11, voluntarily or involuntarily they also work for US-interests. These people killed 3000 people, mostly Americans, but it is likely that they also worked for US secret services.

Is there an al-Qaeda link with the Kosovo Albanian KLA army and if so what is the evidence?

MPRI sent 80 – 120 Mujahadeen into Kosovo to help KLA. This is proven. ObL's own attempts to smuggle men into Kosovo failed. Originally, KLA had a rather weak Muslim influence. KLA are bunch of criminals with a great Albanian nationalist agenda. There's one exception: Hodza (Samedin Xhezairi), who praised himself (in German TV!) as coordinator for the pogroms around Prizren in March 2004. NATO sees him as confident of Bin Laden, but he himself says he has worked for CIA and BND. Another guy with double loyalty is the KLA-successor, so called ANA that is now split into several factions. One branch works with Al Qaeda, and the other is against this alliance.

Sibel Edmonds needs to heard

Sibel Edmonds needs to heard by more and more people. Still many Truthers are uninformed about her. Great to see this getting attention.

BTW, 911Blogger, I submitted this for a post this morning. Does simuvac have more pull than I? Regardless, glad to see it up for everyone to see.

That stupid Jon Gold...

Reported on things like an "ISI Handling Officer" for Bin Laden, and a "working relationship" between Cheney and the ISI for the express purpose of funding, training, and using terrorists to commit terrorist activities. Oh yea, and he also promoted Sibel more than anyone else. Stupid Jon Gold.


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

Relax, dude

Some of us believed you. :-)

I know...

Just makes me mad. What hit the Pentagon?


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

I'd say..

a conspiracy to commit mass murder and incite war hit the Pentagon. Fair enough?

Something for your Hellerstein dossier

"New York Judge Dismisses Claim Negligent Construction Contributed To WTC 7 Collapse"

"Both claims were rejected by Judge Hellerstein, who dismissed Con Ed’s claim that the Port Authority was negligent in the collapse of WTC 7 because of a “connection with the construction or maintenance” of the building."

http://911blogger.com/node/20780

Hey Jon

Here's my write-up on this story: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/07/former-fbi-translator-bin-laden-w...

Any info on ISI handling officer, Cheney's "working relationship" etc. would be appreciated, to add ...

...

http://www.911blogger.com/node/12478
http://www.911blogger.com/node/20541


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

Important

.

Sibel Edmonds is a straight shooter

I respect her search for truth, 1000% times over the suburbun soccer mom's in our Country, Who are just out to get the biggest house, biggerst ring, car etc..

What a women.

I wonder...

If this is somehow related.

"Cyber-sleuths working for a Pentagon intelligence unit that reportedly identified some of the 9/11 hijackers before the attack were fired by military officials, after they mistakenly pinpointed Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and other prominent Americans as potential security risks" [...] "The Pentagon canceled its contract with the private firm shortly after the analysts — who were working on identifying al Qaeda operatives — produced a particularly controversial chart on proliferation of sensitive technology to China."


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

Imagine Usama's Surprise!....

learning that he was responsible for 9/11.

Actually he probably knew as it happened he would be the patsy.

Here's the biggest indicator of his possible involvement...

Or at least knowledge of the attacks that you never hear about...

http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=asummer01binladenspeech#a...

And the reason you probably never hear about it is because that is based on the "prison interrogations of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed."


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

the protected #1 patsy

When bin Laden was visited in a Dubai hospital by CIA station chief Larry Mitchell in summer of 2001, he (OBL) might have got the "heads up" that something drastic was about to come down soon, and that "he would be taken care of". The fact that he wasn't arrested or detained on that occasion (the meeting lasted a number of hours) despite his being on the FBI's "most wanted" list for the African Embassy bombings, is testament to the probability that OBL was being protected. On the day before 9/11, CBS reported that OBL visited a military facility in Rawalpindi Pakistan, where witnesses saw a man answering to OBL's distinctive appearance being escorted in and out under heavy guard. This facility, as reported in the CBS article, is "shared by Pakistani and US military and intelligence units, the latter reporting back to Washington DC on a daily basis".

Since then, every sighting of OBL has been either demonstrably faked, or if real, there is no verifiable time stamp or certifiable chain of custody. Common sense tells us that OBL was a US intelligence asset up until 9/11, and since then, he is most likely either dead, or in protective custody in a secure, undisclosed location. ;). After all, why kill off the superstar in the "justification" used by the US government to launch, and continue, the so called "war on terrorism".

No Jon, he was NOT involved

here is Bin Ladens denial:

'USAMA BIN LADEN: In the name of Allah (God), the most beneficent, the most merciful. Praise be to Allah, Who is the creator of the whole universe and Who made the Earth as an abode for peace, for the whole humankind. Allah is the Sustainer, who sent Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) for our guidance. I am thankful to the Ummat Group of Publications, which gave me the opportunity to convey my viewpoint to the people, particularly the valiant and momin (true Muslim) people of Pakistan who refused to believe the lies of the demon (Pakistani military dictator General Pervez Musharraf).

I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle. It is the United States, which is perpetrating every maltreatment on women, children and common people of other faiths, particularly the followers of Islam. All that is going on in Palestine for the last 11 months is sufficient to call the wrath of God upon the United States and Israel. There is also a warning for those Muslim countries, which witnessed all these as a silent spectator. What had earlier been done to the innocent people of Iraq, Chechnya and Bosnia? Only one conclusion could be derived from the indifference of the United States and the West to these acts of terror and the patronage of the tyrants by these powers that America is an anti-Islamic power and it is patronizing the anti-Islamic forces. Its friendship with the Muslim countries is just a show, rather deceit. By enticing or intimidating these countries, the United States is forcing them to play a role of its choice. Put a glance all around and you will see that the slaves of the United States are either rulers or enemies of Muslims.

http://911review.com/articles/usamah/khilafah.html

Meanwhile we have these guys who are being ignored by even 9-11 truth.,..why?

The Five Dancing Israelis
Arrested On 9-11

As the world watched in disbelief and asked the question...

...Mossad operatives were seen dancing with joy.

A Mossad surveillance team made quite a public spectacle of themselves on 9-11.

The New York Times reported Thursday that a group of five men had set up video cameras aimed at the Twin Towers prior to the attack on Tuesday, and were seen congratulating one another afterwards. (1)

Police received several calls from angry New Jersey residents claiming "middle-eastern" men with a white van were videotaping the disaster with shouts of joy and mockery. (2)

"They were like happy, you know … They didn't look shocked to me" said a witness. (3)

[T]hey were seen by New Jersey residents on Sept. 11 making fun of the World Trade Center ruins and going to extreme lengths to photograph themselves in front of the wreckage. (4)

Witnesses saw them jumping for joy in Liberty State Park after the initial impact (5). Later on, other witnesses saw them celebrating on a roof in Weehawken, and still more witnesses later saw them celebrating with high fives in a Jersey City parking lot. (6)

"It looked like they're hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park." (7)

One anonymous phone call to the authorities actually led them to close down all of New York's bridges and tunnels. The mystery caller told the 9-1-1 dispatcher that a group of Palestinians were mixing a bomb inside of a white van headed for the Holland Tunnel. Here's the transcript from NBC News:

Dispatcher: Jersey City police.
Caller: Yes, we have a white van, 2 or 3 guys in there, they look like Palestinians and going around a building.
Caller: There's a minivan heading toward the Holland tunnel, I see the guy by Newark Airport mixing some junk and he has those sheikh uniform.
Dispatcher: He has what?
Caller: He's dressed like an Arab. (8)

(*Writer's note: Why would this mystery caller specifically say that these "Arabs" were Palestinians? How would he know that? Palestinians usually dress in western style clothes, not "sheikh uniforms")

Based on that phone call, police then issued a "Be-on-the-Lookout" alert for a white mini-van heading for the city's bridges and tunnels from New Jersey.

White, 2000 Chevrolet van with 'Urban Moving Systems' sign on back seen at Liberty State Park, Jersey City, NJ, at the time of first impact of jetliner into World Trade Center Three individuals with van were seen celebrating after initial impact and subsequent explosion. FBI Newark Field Office requests that, if the van is located, hold for prints and detain individuals. (9)

When a van fitting that exact description was stopped just before crossing into New York, the suspicious "middle-easterners" were apprehended. Imagine the surprise of the police officers when these terror suspects turned out to be Israelis!
According to ABC’s 20/20, when the van belonging to the cheering Israelis was stopped by the police, the driver of the van, Sivan Kurzberg, told the officers:

"We are Israelis. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are your problem." (10)

Why did he feel Palestinians were a problem for the NYPD?

The police and FBI field agents became very suspicious when they found maps of the city with certain places highlighted, box cutters (the same items that the hijackers supposedly used), $4700 cash stuffed in a sock, and foreign passports. Police also told the Bergen Record that bomb sniffing dogs were brought to the van and that they reacted as if they had smelled explosives. (11)

The FBI seized and developed their photos, one of which shows Sivan Kurzberg flicking a cigarette lighter in front of the smouldering ruins in an apparently celebratory gesture. (12)

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html

...

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20090104025547844


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

yes.... those dancing Mossad agents...

This a a tough issue. The 9/11 truth movement is already subject to name-calling by supporters of the official fairytale. This is the standard response when their side has run out of road and lost the argument: resorting to ad hominems. Just to invoke doubt or skepticism re. the mildest points of 9/11 (against the official version) is to invite a slew of playground-style insults. Unfortunately, many people take note of this schoolboy -style language when they are not prepared to or don't have the time to read through the logic of an argument, no matter how strong it is; as soon the predictable accusation of "conspiracy theorist" rears its ugly head, there is an immediate association with "Elvis is still alive", or "Bigfoot" or UFOs etc.

The dancing Israeli issue is even more problematic. Invoking any criticism of any aspect of Israel , even its domestic and foreign policies is to invite slurs of "anti-semite!", "Jew hater!", "Holocaust denier!" and more. One comes across the same reactions if bringing up the issue of the disproportionate influence of the Israeli lobby in Washington DC. In other words, the subject is taboo. Many people in the 9/11 Truth community avoid going there, for good reason; Eric Hufschmid, for example (and others) have damaged the mainstream image of the 9/11 truth community by conflating skepticism of the official story of the 9/11 attacks with "Holocaust denial" and "the faked moon landings" and other such idiotic material. His work has effectively been a major boost for the supporters of the government's version of the events of 9/11. The 9/11 truth community doesn't have the time, and cannot afford to concentrate on damage control; there is so much important work that remains to be done.

However, none of this takes away from the undeniable fact that those 5 "dancing Israelis" remain a very strong indication of some degree of involvement and prior knowledge on the part of people within the Israeli government/intelligence service. This was even admitted by the leader of that group, Dominic Suter, who admitted on an Israeli chat show on mainstream Israeli television a few years back that "he was sent by his (agency) bosses to document the event". This video footage periodically surfaces on youtube but as soon as someone puts it up, the censors at youtube pull it; this content is obviously red-flagged. Those Mossad guys knew exactly where to go, videotaping the attack from the best vantage point, on the NJ shore, looking straight across the water to Lower Manhattan; the FBI arrested them and found much highly incriminating evidence. I should add... had these guys been Muslims, or Palestinians, the media and the government would have undoubtedly named them as co-conspirators alongside the alleged hijackers, "tried" them in a military tribunal kangaroo court, and sentenced them to death. At the very least, they would be in Gitmo or similar, awaiting their certain demise.

The part that frustrates me about this entire affair, is that those 5 Mossad guys have the strongest connection, as regards prior knowledge, and even possible involvement, with the events of that day. At the very least, they could have been charged with "accessory before the fact" to mass murder etc., a serious charge that carries penalties similar to what the actual perpetrators would face in court. But no. They were quietly released and sent back to Israel, no media coverage, no questions, no problems.

So, what to do? Here we have a potentially most damning link to the "who and how" of 9/11, but it remains off limits, as described above. I have brought this issue up (in private conversation at various 9/11 oriented events) with several high profile members of the 9/11 truth community and I have the universal impression nobody is prepared to exploit this, presumably on account of the reasons I mentioned.

As an afterthought, I wonder where those videotapes that the FBI confiscate are now located, what is on them, and when did those guys start rolling tape?

Not what he said, iirc

This was even admitted by the leader of that group, Dominic Suter, who admitted on an Israeli chat show on mainstream Israeli television a few years back that "he was sent by his (agency) bosses to document the event".

In fact, he spoke in Hebrew (afaik), and this is what the translator made of it.

"The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily, our purpose was to document the event"

Is this any less bad? I don't know, but it's better to quote precisely, than to insert phrases such as "was sent by his agency".

Correct me if I'm wrong.

To be, or not to be..... politically correct?

I don't speak Hebrew, but from what I have seen, nobody has (as of yet) challenged the accuracy of the translation.

It has been a couple of years since I watched that clip, and I cannot recall the exact text, verbatim. You are correct, but imho, it is "no less bad"; regardless of the reason given; their actions still infer detailed prior knowledge. I also feel it is inappropriate to take an accommodationist position on this due to the gravity of the crimes and the aftermath.

However, to put this in plain language (recognizing the risk of being keel-hauled by the political correctness police), this issue stinks, absolutely. The US most likely ignored (and the media squashed reportage of) this possible smoking gun, presumably because of the nationality (and religion) of these guys? It is patently obvious, that had these guys been Islamic, or Iranian or (name *any* muslim name in the Middle East), the media and administration would have been jumping and high-fiving in glee, giving it 24/7 total immersion coverage. And we all know about the position (regarding the Israeli-Arab, or Jewish-Muslim relations) of many of the top people in the 2001 Bush Administration... perhaps the pressure to conform to political correctness prevents people in the 9/11 Truth community from airing these details as well?

It is a frustrating, that one of the possibly most productive avenues of research into the how and who of 9/11 is a "no go area". The need to be politically correct on this issue is causing much self censorship, and is hobbling the 9/11 truth community. Could it be possible (to put my neck on the chopping block here), that the planners (not necessarily the actual perpetrators) were aware of this state of self-censorship in advance of the attacks, and that it was factored in, allowing for some "wiggle room" in the event of errors in the execution of such a complex plan?

As I mentioned in my previous post, this situation reflects the extraordinary degree of duplicity, hypocrisy and privilege that infests not only official US foreign policy in the middle east, but how it trickles down into everyday life and conversation.

*Taking cover*

Sure, to clarify

To clarify: my position is that 9/11 is a joint operation of primarily three countries: the United States, Pakistan and Israel who manipulated terrorists and subverted the United States' defenses for their own agenda. The leader in the operation is the United States, primarily the network run by PNAC members, headed by, in my opinion, George Bush sr.

The Mossad is involved. Absolutely. In fact, the extent of their involvement could be much, much bigger than we initially thought it was.

It's definitely not a no-go area for me. Nothing is. Except, perhaps, the Holocaust. I can't help that, it's just too painful and too ...well...taboo. I won't even investigate anything I hear about that. Maybe that's wrong, I don't know.

not so

'To clarify: my position is that 9/11 is a joint operation of primarily three countries: the United States, Pakistan and Israel who manipulated terrorists and subverted the United States' defenses for their own agenda'

manipulated terrorists? Really? The absurdity of this view is apparent when you ask yourself how did these 'terrorists' (arabs as u imply) get access to the towers to plant explosives... They may have been let past israeli security at the 3 american airports, except theres no video proof they ever passed thru the airports!
Fortget the arab terrorists dun it...they didnt., and 9-11 truth investigations confirm a lack of evidence they did...Guess who that leaves...

Yeah

What would I know about controlled demolition. Hell it's not like my alias refers to it or anything.

Or...maybe you could check out my blog sometime.

Yep, that's me, saying Al Qaeda did it.

Edit:
Saying I think that Al Qaeda planted explosives in the WTC is not only offensive to me as a dedicated CD researcher, it's quite likely the most annoying and stupid straw man argument I've ever heard.

indeed

its not what do u know of CD, its why is Sybil saying Bin Laden ws involved in 9-11 ...esp after the FBI admiting it has no evidence? That means no alqaeda....For even KSM only admitted to 9-11 after being tortured!

Some 9-11 truthers need to screw on their heads...adn not be misled by duibious narratives. Thats what Sybils is...

The FBI evidence

That is a very good point, but, in my opinion, the FBI has no evidence of Bin Laden's involvement because...nobody cared!

They already knew where they were going to bomb and what they were going to do! Due process had nothing to do with it...

So whether or not they're would have strong evidence of Bin Laden's involvement, the White House couldn't care less.

The relevance when bringing the FBI evidence issue up is in that context the justification for the war on terror and the war in Afghanistan (there is hardly any), and the comparison of evidence fingering Bin Laden vs. evidence fingering the CIA, ISI & Mossad! There is much more evidence proving the latter than there is evidence proving the former!

In my opinion both sides (the false flag side and the jihadist side) need to pay the price for what they did. And no, I don't believe Bin Laden is innocent of 9/11. This Kafir is no Dhimmi.

No "hard" evidence

The FBI did not say it has "no" evidence of OBL's connection to 9/11. It said it has no "hard" evidence, which means it has no documentary proof, just coerced confessions and the infamous video. The evidence it has would not stand up in a regular court. To dismiss the entire existence of al-Qaeda (whatever it is) and Bin Laden when talking about 9/11 is irresponsible and ignores the evidence as we know it.

Absolutely

I agree wholeheartedly. You summed it up much better than I did.

US govt DID care

'That is a very good point, but, in my opinion, the FBI has no evidence of Bin Laden's involvement because...nobody cared!'

Not so....they cared enough to have OBL on their most wanted list..ad had there been any real evidence for his role in 9-11,theyd have posted it.. The Bush govt cared enough to saturate the media with Bin laden done it! The FBI has proven a bit more honest.

Some people in 9-11 truth need to be sure its Truth and not muslim bashing or speculation that is their interest.

'In my opinion both sides (the false flag side and the jihadist side) need to pay the price for what they did'

see? Theirs no evidence there were any jihardists involved, no arabs at all! So why speculate there were?

Interesting

There is no evidence you exist either. How can I make sure your comment is even real?

That flight training, was all of that fake too? Did ghosts fly planes in Venice? Did Rudi Dekkers hang out with a ghost? Astonishing!

We are entering an exciting new avenue of 9/11 research. Absolutely everything is fake. Atta is so fake he never even existed, so he can't be dead either.

Maybe Atta is so fake, he's simply too fake to be faked. He's an optical illusion of fakery. That what all these people in Venice saw.

The guy in the security video? Fake. He lives on an island somewhere. Plastic surgery.

ISI wiring $100000? Fake. Video testaments? Fake. DNA evidence? Fake. Witness at the airport who boarded the hijackers? Fake. Fascinating.

Hamburg cell? Fake. Ali Mohamed? Fake. FBI warnings? Fake. Saudi involvement? Fake. All prior knowledge of the attacks? Fake. Able Danger? Fake. Wow.

Yeah, I'm just "muslim bashing". Islamic terrorism is REAL, brianct. Get over it.

false flags and the demonisation of islam

'There is no evidence you exist either. How can I make sure your comment is even real?'

i dont use a fake name...like snowcrash.

'We are entering an exciting new avenue of 9/11 research.'

You may think you are...i prefer to avoid virtual research.

'The guy in the security video? Fake. He lives on an island somewhere. Plastic surgery'

what security video do u refer to?

'Witness at the airport who boarded the hijackers?'

what witness? Remeber theres no video evidence arab hijackers were ever at the airports the planes took off from.

'Hamburg cell? Fake. Ali Mohamed? Fake. FBI warnings? Fake. Saudi involvement? Fake. All prior knowledge of the attacks? Fake. Able Danger? Fake. Wow.'

Unlike you, i know when to pursue a lead and when not to..

Islamic terrorism so far is limited to the islamic world...which the US has invaded.

A lot of so bombings blamed on muslims, may not be so at all...just ask Robert Finnegan:

'Bayuni, along with Raymond Touran, then Chief Editor of the Jakarta Post, and U.S. Ambassador to Jakarta Ralph Boyce did their utmost to cover up the perpetrators of the Bali bombings of 10/12/2002, harassing and firing JP reporters who dared to question the official lies of the FBI, NSA, and CIA who were directly involved.

Bayuni, along with Raymond Touran and Hermawan Sulystio are CIA bagmen, bought and paid for by the United States.

Robert S. Finnegan
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/endy_bayuni/2007/09/milita...

and:

Death in Bali

by Brian Harring

I am going to introduce this incredible story by publishing an on-the-spot accounting by Robert Finnegan, an editor of the Jakarta Post. Finnegan, and a team of investigators went to Bali just after the blast and he covered it in depth, took many photographs and samples and conducted a number of interviews with locals and enforcement agents. The results of his efforts is that he was summoned to the American Embassy in Jakarta and personally interviewed by Ambassador Ralph Boyce.

Finnegan was read the riot act by the Ambassador and told that he was “rocking the boat” and ordered to cease and desist his investigative activities at once. When Finnegan refused, the outraged Ambassador told him he would have him ejected from Indonesia within 24 hours. He was ordered to surrender his notes to Embassy personnel, films were confiscated as was a sampling of earth taken from the blast site (Finnegan had two such samples and only one was found)

American authorities also subsequently believed that “an unidentified individual” was believed to be in possession of a tape recording of certain statements made by the Ambassador that might be considered by many to fully support the thrust of Finnegan’s investigations.

Here is Finnegan’s original article:

Bali bombing: An investigator's analysis

January 3, 2003
by Robert S. Finnegan,
The Jakarta Post, Jakarta

On October 12, 2002 the Indonesian island of Bali experienced a terrorist attack that rocked the world. It was unquestionably well-coordinated and executed, the largest in the country's history.

Investigators and forensics experts from both national and international teams that had quickly been assembled flocked to the crime scene, ostensibly to begin what should have been a long, drawn out exercise in forensics and investigative sleuthing to identify and capture the foot soldiers, coordinators and masterminds behind the attack that has left over 190 known dead, scores missing without a trace and hundreds more wounded.

It has turned out to be anything but that.

The Indonesian government immediately vowed to unite in the hunt for the bombers.

The U.S. government along with the international community seized the opportunity to point the finger at the shadowy al-Qaeda group along with Muslim cleric Abu Bakar Ba'asyir as the culprits.

In hindsight, it would appear that perhaps these individuals, given their apparent intimate knowledge of the perpetrators immediately following the bombing should have been included on the investigating team. Perhaps if they had we would know more than we do today, which is very little despite the volume of information (or disinformation) being vomited out by the spokesmen for the investigative teams on a daily basis.

...

To put this in perspective, let us look at three of the explosives claimed by official investigators to have been used in the bombings, starting with the compound that has the lowest velocity of detonation in feet per second (FPS) which is Potassium Chlorate at 3,500 FPS; compared to 12,000 FPS for Ammonium Nitrate and diesel and finally 27,800 FPS for RDX. In simple terms, at any given distance from ground zero these different explosive compounds will exert pressure in pounds per square inch. Damage to people and structures are a result of this pressure in varying degrees depending on the velocity of detonation. Even if RDX were used, the amount needed to cause the level of destruction in evidence at the crime scene should have been in excess of anything available through even the military, who denied possession of the explosive. There is also the delivery of the device to be taken into account.

Each of the explosives cited by investigators (with the exception of napalm) have unique and individual characteristics that vary for usage, stability and explosive yeild. They require specific detonators for each in order to obtain maximum effect.

Also now at the bottom of the ocean off Bali is the reinforcing bar (rebar) located more than fifty feet from ground zero that had been completely stripped of concrete as a result of the blast. Documented military estimates of the force required to accomplish this is roughly 1 million to 1.5 million pounds per square inch.

What kind of weapon or device could accomplish this? And for that matter leave a crater of that size? Why was it filled in? This arguably could have been one of the most important pieces of evidence available to investigators not only for the trace explosive in evidence, but from which also could have been determined (roughly) the size and composition of the device.

With the police claiming (off and on) that Amrozi, Mukhlas and Samudra (who allegedly at one point denied involvement in the Bali bombings) were the perpetrators of the blasts, then why do the official investigators not know EXACTLY the type of device used in the main bombing and its precise composition? To put it quite simply, how can we have a bomber or bombers in the absence of a bomb?

Why were Amrozi and Samudra so quick to confess and finger their "accomplices"? Were these the actions of dedicated, radical, Islamic fundamentalists? "Professionals"? Did they expect to further their cause by eviscerating their own organization? Does it make sense that they were willing to kill and maim hundreds of innocents - including many fellow Indonesians - and yet implicate their comrades to save their own skins?

Given this dismal investigative performance, exactly what role did the international investigating team play in this debacle?

If indeed there is one thing that has been glaringly apparent throughout this investigation, it is that perhaps nothing close to the truth has been told as of today. It is also apparent that something is very, very wrong not only with the procedural aspects of this case, but also with the suppression and outright destruction of evidence. The international investigators bear a heavy responsibility for this, and should be held accountable.

Jakarta Post Editor Robert S. Finnegan is an internationally published investigative reporter with over two decades investigative experience. He currently holds an Alaska (U.S.) Private Investigator license.

http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a2603.htm

from your post jon

Fact #29
Osama Bin Laden has not been indicted for the 9/11 attacks. Some time before 9/26/2001, FBI spokesman Rex Tomb says, "there’s going to be a considerable amount of time before anyone associated with the attacks is actually charged." He continues, "To be charged with a crime, this means we have found evidence to confirm our suspicions, and a prosecutor has said we will pursue this case in court." On 9/23/2001, then Secretary of State Colin Powell is asked, "will you release publicly a white paper which links [bin Laden] and his organization to this attack to put people at ease?" He responds by saying "we are hard at work bringing all the information together, intelligence information, law enforcement information. And I think in the near future we will be able to put out a paper, a document that will describe quite clearly the evidence that we have linking him to this attack." The following day, then White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer when asked about Powell's statement says "I think that there was just a misinterpretation of the exact words the secretary used on the Sunday shows.… I’m not aware of anybody who said white paper, and the secretary didn’t say anything about a white paper yesterday." On 10/4/2001, Tony Blair will present a paper that makes the case for Osama Bin Laden's involvement before Parliament. It says, "this document does not purport to provide a prosecutable case against Osama bin Laden in a court of law.” Nevertheless, it continues, “on the basis of all the information available [Her Majesty’s Government] is confident of its conclusions as expressed in this document." On 6/6/2006, Rex Tomb will say, "the reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Osama bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting bin Laden to 9/11." This according to Ed Haas of the Muckraker Report. On 8/28/2006, the Washington Post will report about this story. They state "from this point of view, the lack of a Sept. 11 reference suggests that the connection to al-Qaeda is uncertain. Exhaustive government and independent investigations have concluded otherwise, of course, and bin Laden and other al-Qaeda leaders have proudly taken responsibility for the hijackings." They speak to Rex Tomb who says "There's no mystery here" [...] "They could add 9/11 on there, but they have not because they don't need to at this point. . . . There is a logic to it." According to David N. Kelley, a former U.S. attorney, "It might seem a little strange from the outside, but it makes sense from a legal point of view," said Kelley, now in private practice. "If I were in government, I'd be troubled if I were asked to put up a wanted picture where no formal charges had been filed, no matter who it was." Contrary to WaPo's claim that "bin Laden and other al-Qaeda leaders have proudly taken responsibility for the hijackings," Osama denied any involvement in the attacks on three separate ocassions. On 9/16/2001, he says, “I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks, which seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons.” On 9/28/2001, he says, "I have already said that I am not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other human beings as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of battle.… The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself; the people who are a part of the US system but are dissenting against it. Or those who are working for some other system; persons who want to make the present century as a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity so that their own civilization, nation, country, or ideology can survive. They may be anyone, from Russia to Israel and from India to Serbia. In the US itself, there are dozens of well-organized and well-equipped groups capable of causing large-scale destruction. Then you cannot forget the American Jews, who have been annoyed with President Bush ever since the Florida elections and who want to avenge him.… Then there are intelligence agencies in the US, which require billions of dollars worth of funds from Congress and the government every year.… They needed an enemy.… Is it not that there exists a government within the government in the United Sates? That secret government must be asked who carried out the attacks." On 12/26/2001, Bin Laden releases a tape that says the U.S.'s invasion of Afghanistan is "a vicious campaign based on mere suspicion." On 9/10/2008, White House Press Secretary Dana Perino will be asked a question. "But Osama bin Laden is the one that — you keep talking about his lieutenants, and, yes, they are very important, but Osama bin Laden was the mastermind of 9/11 –" Her response is to say that "No, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was the mastermind of 9/11, and he’s sitting in jail right now."

Fact #30
The authenticity of video and audio recordings that have been released over the years allegedly from Osama Bin Laden have been disputed. On 10/29/2007, MSNBC reported about a "running debate among video analysts about whether al-Qaida faked" a video that was released on 9/7/2007. The so called "confession video" has been disputed from three different points of view. The translation of the tape was disputed. Professor Gernot Rotter from the University of Hamburg says, "this tape is of such poor quality that many passages are unintelligible. And those that are intelligible have often been taken out of context, so that you can’t use that as evidence. The American translators who listened to the tape and transcribed it obviously added things that they wanted to hear in many places.” The date the video was made is disputed by analyst Maher Osseiran. Several commentators questioned whether the person depicted in the video is actually Osama. According to CNN, Bush was asked about the authenticity of the tape, but "scoffed" at the idea "that the videotape of Osama bin Laden discussing the September 11 terrorist attacks might not be authentic." He said, "It is preposterous for anybody to think that this tape is doctored" [...] "That's just a feeble excuse to provide weak support for an incredibly evil man."
===============================================================

No OBL not anway involved....meanwhile Mossad agents were hi fiving in plain sight of the burning towers.

Do these people deserve


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

Problem: Bin laden denied he did 9-11

'The bombshell here is obviously that certain people in the US were using Bin Laden up to September 11, 2001.'

Why is sybil still parroting the official story line that bin laden did 9-11? He denied it before he died, back late in 2001.
Dont be fooled people
Here is David Ray Griffin on this topic:
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20090721143335914
already posted on 911blogger.

I don't recall...

"These 'intimate relations' included using Bin Laden for 'operations' in Central Asia, including Xinjiang, China. These 'operations' involved using al Qaeda and the Taliban in the same manner "as we did during the Afghan and Soviet conflict," that is, fighting 'enemies' via proxies" as being apart of the "official story."

I can't believe you don't see the significance of Osama the terrorist being connected to the U.S. Government for terrorist purposes up until 9/11.


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

really jon...

Conjecture is not a very good way to make a case...Its tiring to see the same defence being trotted out time and time again...SO: OBL denied doing it, the FBI says it has no evidence he did it...yet you keep claiming, well he MUST have because...well he was an asset!
Why bring OBL in at all? If at bottom its still a US operation? Why do u keep denying the israeli role....? They had the men on the ground..they had the means, the capacity and the sadisitic will...and were linked to the US govt by way of the neocons....

'"Evidence linking these Israelis to 9/11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It's classified information."
US official quoted in Carl Cameron's Fox News report on the Israeli spy ring.'
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html

"By way of deception, thou shalt do war"
Motto of the Mossad

theyve done it before. and they will do it again.

I'm not even going to acknowledge this...

This is me not acknowledging your post.


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

pity jon

Thats not the best way to conduct an investigation....How do u expect to learn if you refuse to turn over some rocks?

yes the deception is spreading

They are spreading the OBL done it...when theres no evidence he did...IFC is usually a bit more clued in,than to go down this path of deception....
Raw story is a bit disappointing for all their posturing,, they are little better than the MSM on 9-11 issues.

Who is Osama bin Laden?

I have read hundreds, if not thousands, of pages about Islamism (radical or militant and violent Islam) and Osama bin Laden. I have read the latter's speeches (I am aware of course that the authenticity of some of these has been questioned) , and I have read several biographical accounts of the man and his collaborators (in particular, Ayman al-Zawahiri). I have done so in several languages (English, German, and French), which gives me a greater variety of perspectives.

Although, as I have had occasion to state on this site, I greatly appreciate and respect the work of David Ray Griffin, I do not share his thesis that ObL is dead. I understand that that thesis is based upon cumulative evidence, much of which seems sound. However, that evidence is simply not conclusive. There are too many unanswered questions regarding ObL, his actions, his declarations, and his collaborators, too many contradictions attaching to the man, his words, and his deeds. By now, I no longer know what to believe about him, save that he is Saudi of origin and a member of the famous and very large bin Laden family.

Sibel Edmonds is a very courageous person, and I have no doubt that she is an honest person. However, her claim that "the
the US maintained 'intimate relations' with Bin Laden.... "all the way until that day of September 11"" is one that strikes me as no more credible than many other ones that have been made about the man, until hard evience to that effect has been presented and is publicly inspectable. At this point, I deem it no more reliable than other rumors about ObL, of which by now there are hundreds. The problem is that so much that is said about ObL is simply not verifiable. Faced with such an undecidable set of claims and counter-claims, I prefer to remain cautious and withhod my assent to claims that are not verifiable.

stone deaf

'Although, as I have had occasion to state on this site, I greatly appreciate and respect the work of David Ray Griffin, I do not share his thesis that ObL is dead'

pity because the evidence is clear that he is no longer alive...so your defence of OBL alive is even less convincing! Its sans evidence!

'By now, I no longer know what to believe about him'

Poor u...thats the effect of not being able to sift evidence from conjecture!

'However, her claim that "the
the US maintained 'intimate relations' with Bin Laden.... "all the way until that day of September 11"" is one that strikes me as no more credible than many other ones that have been made about the man, until hard evience to that effect has been presented and is publicly inspectable'

this looks to be correct!

Meanwhile, why dont we pursue an avenue all but overlooked:

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html

hmm,?

Where is the Body?

No, the evidence that ObL is dead is not clear at all, although your willful belief that he is, is perfectly clear.

If you paid attention to what I wrote and were not blinded by what confirms your own preconception of what happened on 9/11, you would have noticed that I did not defend the notion that ObL is alive. For all I know, he is indeed dead.

Instead, I claimed that Griffin's thesis of the death of ObL is supported by evidence that is inconclusive, and I may add that, as a consequence, his overall cumulative case is unconvincing. All the evidence is indirect, and some is founded on unreliable sources (e.g.,, Musharraf). Some of the indirect evidence is under dispute or even inconsistent, such as the alleged visit paid by CIA personnel to ObL in 2001, just prior to 9/11. Even ObL's involvement with the CIA during the guerilla campaign against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan has not been established conclusively. Furthermore, why is it that Al Qaeda's department of propaganda has not disputed the authenticity of any of the ObL video or audio statements published after the time of ObL's alleged death in December 2001, especially since at least one such video contains affirmations that are heretical on Al Qaeda's understanding of Islam? The latter question can also be raised with respect to Ayman al-Zawahiri.

You can spare me your derisive, and thus phony, pity. It is precisely because I can distinguish between conjecture and evidence that I deem Griffin's claim that ObL is dead and that he died in December of 2001 to be no more than a piece of speculation. He may be dead, but then again he may not. We won't know until there is a body or at leastt one highly reliable eyewitness.

The article to which you refer at the end of your post is replete with information and claims that are as old the hills. None of it helps one to decide the issue under discussion.

Later addition: By 'department of propaganda' I mean the section of Al Qaeda called Al Sahab and that produces videos, audios, and other propaganda material and documents.

yes where is the body

Where is the body of the LIVING Bin Laden..Hes nowhere to be seen. YETbefore dec 2001,he gave interviews!
Why invoke ONL at all? The Us govt did that to cover their own actions...why are u doing it?

'If you paid attention to what I wrote and were not blinded by what confirms your own preconception of what happened on 9/11, you would have noticed that I did not defend the notion that ObL is alive. For all I know, he is indeed dead'

i am paying attention..to your interest in keeping OBL alive...just as the US govt has been determined to keep him alive with audios and videos. BUT i dont see any OBL anywhere

'It is precisely because I can distinguish between conjecture and evidence that I deem Griffin's claim that ObL is dead and that he died in December of 2001 to be no more than a piece of speculation'

Youre the one speculating....No body? ergo he must be alive...

i suggest you read his book, or this:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/osama_dead.html

'I mean the section of Al Qaeda called Al Sahab and that produces videos, audios, and other propaganda material and documents.'

Like Bin laden done it videos? Why bother to do that? Your thesis lackis even basic reasoning!
Show me evidence your al sahab made those OBL videos...

If OBL was responsible....

Why the denial and then all the fake videos and audio? If he did it, why wouldn't he continue to cooperate as A NUMBER ONE BOOGIE MAN? He could have made all the videos and the tapes for them so they wouldn't have had to make the fake ones.

First off...

We don't know that all the videos and audio are fake. Convenient? Most times yes. Challenged by credible people? Some of them. I don't think Osama Bin Laden had to be intimately involved with the 9/11 attacks, or involved at all really. People affiliated with his "business" could have been used for the attacks. He could have been set up for all we know. The point is, if what Sibel says is true, and personally, I think we have every reason to believe it is, then that means that at the same time the U.S.S. Cole, the Embassy Bombings, took place, Osama was a "proxy" for elements within the U.S. Did he do those bombings for elements within the U.S. to create a "Strategy of Tension?" Also, if they are saying Osama was responsible, and information comes out that says elements within the U.S. and Osama had an "intimate relationship" [...] "all the way up to September 11," and that information is being ignored or suppressed, then it stands to reason, that there is a reason why." Was Osama's band used by elements within the U.S. for 9/11?


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

Right on

and if they used him as patsy all along, sure the innocence-make believe was part of the strategy of tension as well. To create confusion.

Keep on...

Keepin' on.


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

try a different track, jon

Then you may get some results that actually tally with the evidence...You seem to deny any israeli involvement...Why?

I'm going to reply to this...

Because I think it's funny. Do you know who Sibel Edmonds is? Do you know the organizations she has the most problems with? Did you know that one of the organizations she has the most problems with is AIPAC? Did you know that AIPAC is a lobby for the state of Israel?


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

yes i know who sybil is

I know she is not too aware of 9-11 truth, or that the FBI has admitted it has no evidence Bin Laden was involved in any way in 9-11.
She needs to be brought up to speed. Hers is a novel variation on letting it happen.
Yep, i know about AIPAC...But the enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend!
The AIPAC angle is irrelevant, except in connection with the Dancing Israelis.....

There is an explanation for that

Double agent.

Second of all, I think that Bin Laden denied being involved because he was forced to do so by the Taliban.

It is obligatory in Afghanistan to protect your guest with your life. Therefore, the only way to get out from under an invasion is to ask your guest to lie, because you simply cannot extradite him. It's that simple. Al Qaeda may have had camps in Afghanistan, but the Taliban was always in charge.

is that thinking?

'Second of all, I think that Bin Laden denied being involved because he was forced to do so by the Taliban.'

Wow, the free floating fancies get more absurd...Any evidence for this assumption?

Note the way it was phrased

"Second of all, I think that Bin Laden denied being involved because he was forced to do so by the Taliban."

Therefore, I have no evidence to support this claim. Feel free to demand more sources for my thoughts.

Was Bin Laden involved? Are you one of these types who think that islamic terrorism doesn't exist?

In Islam, it is allowed to lie in order to defend Islam. You need to familiarize yourself with Islamic culture if you haven't already, and study As Sahab. If you can provide hard proof it's all CIA propaganda material, including the video testaments of some of the hijackers, I'll believe you. And believe me I do know and understand that we live in a jungle of confusing propaganda and media fabrications.

By the way, have you thought of paying a visit to the family members of the deceased hijackers? Maybe that would clear up a lot.

Thank you, SnowCrash,

for making an attempt to return some sanity to this discussion.

so why make it?

'Therefore, I have no evidence to support this claim'

so why make it?

Why?

Because after five years of studying 9/11 and the WOT I have insight.

If everything you say is basically a repeat of some source, and you don't offer insights of your own, you are basically a parrot.

My own insights into Afghanistan are confirmed and amended by primary sources you would not believe, brianct. (And I'm not going to discuss details with you that would endanger that source) So where do your insights come from? Alex Jones and Jim Fetzer? Webster Tarpley?

very convincing ...not...

Insight is as vague as specuilation..
More waffle, as well as petty spite against jones and tarpely, who have done far more than u to elucidate 9-11.

I simply don't

support the "hijackers don't exist" nonsense. I'll leave it at that.

muslim hijackers...they didnt exist

muslim hijackers...they didnt exist

You left out the word: 'muslim'
You must be new to 9-11 truth, or youd be aware of the anomalies surrounding the 'evidence' put forth to assert 9-11 was the work of islamic terrorists, which persons on this thread foillowing Sybil claim were handled by the US govt!!
Its the last part that suggests the narrative is being cooked by 'insightful' persons.

I see what you are saying.

I believe Sibel Edmonds is telling the truth. I understand the "Strategy Of Tension". The implication, then, is that the USS Cole was also an inside job, as were the embassy bombings. The whole thing is a ruse. None of it is blow back. Am I seeing this clearly?

Something like that...

But again, it's speculation. The "Strategy of Tension" may have been used to create the atmosphere for the "War on Terror." The bottom line is, if Sibel is correct, then the question of whether or not the U.S. somehow used Osama, or members of his "business" for 9/11, follows like B after A. A question that needs answering. As was stated, "they needed to keep their fingerprints off these operations," and that's how it is done. By "proxy."

As Paul Thompson says in 9/11: Press For Truth, "I'm not suggesting from this that Pakistan is the quote unquote "solution" to 9/11 because it's not. Pakistan is one part in a very complicated story. The question to me is who else was involved with Al-Qaeda? Was Al-Qaeda used as a tool just as in the 1980's the Mujahadeen were basically used by the U.S. Government?"

I certainly think there's reason to think so.

Edit: If the alleged perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks (the patsies) had "intimate" relations with elements within the U.S. Government "up until 9/11", for the express purpose of committing terrorist acts, is that information that should be discarded like some are suggesting?


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

A Big 'if'

Jon Gold asks: "If the alleged perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks (the patsies) had "intimate" relations with elements within the U.S. Government "up until 9/11", for the express purpose of committing terrorist acts, is that information that should be discarded like some are suggesting?"

I do not know whom exactly you have in mind, Jon. I am assuming that I am part of the group, and that, as such, I should respond. I am not suggesting that the information or, more precisely, the allegation in question be discarded. However, until publicly inspectable evidence of such intimacy is supplied, it is as good as any hypothesis along those lines. It is no more than one hypothesis among many.

Sibel Edmonds has said many things, but most are merely suggestive and tentalizing and have, so far as I know, led to no substantial breakthoughs, precisely because they are unsupported by verifiable evidence.

Sibel...

Often speaks of documentation, wiretaps, hard evidence that is not being released.

http://letsibeledmondsspeak.blogspot.com/2008/01/sibel-edmonds-case-obst...

"The fraudulent 9/11 Commissioners - every single one of them - knows about my case and the details, and the names, and all the specifics." [...] "Put out the tapes, put out the wiretaps! Put out those documents! Put out the truth! The truth is going to hurt them, the truth is going to set me free!"


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

Yes, that is my impression, indeed,

a lot of promissory notes, but no cashing in.

I think I have now made my point.

Influencing Al Qaeda

Much of the influencing and manipulating of Al Qaeda is done by proxy: namely via the ISI.

Michel Chossudovksy often talks and writes about the relationship, either directly or indirectly, between the CIA and Al Qaeda, for example during the Balkan and Chechen wars.

This places cooperation with Al Qaeda into the nineties, at least. Chossudovsky claims there is hard documented evidence for this, but I have yet to adequately look into it.....

I presume it's discussed in his book "America's 'War On Terrorism'", but maybe this is a good introduction:

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=3198

I really appreciate Chossudovsky's work.

Alleged Connection Between CIA and Al Qaeda

All manner of claims have been made about there being a connection between Al Qaeda and the CIA. However, none are ever properly substantiated and verifiable.

The topic is basically a free for all. It is a locus where the fancy of the investigators takes off in its direction of predilection.

On the Negative Evaluation of My Immediately Previous Post

I thought this forum was one where the truth was being sought. How is the truth going to be allowed to come forth, if people are not willing to examine their preconceptions which act as obstructions to the manifestation of the truth?

The preconception at work here is something like this, as far as I can see:

1) We know the three WTC buildings were not brought down by the airplane impacts, the fires and gravity (what we might call the Steven Jones thesis, now presented and argued very systematically and clearly by Richard Gage), and that explosives had to be detonated in order to pull them.

2) Therefore, the nineteen conspirators who hijacked the planes cannot be the only people involved in the crime.

3) From this conclusion, many seem to feel obliged to derive the further conclusion that there is no such thing as an independent Islamist movement, no such thing as a militant Islamist organization that is not answerable to the CIA, and that Osama bin Laden is a CIA agent or some (direct or indirect) tool in the hands of the CIA.

I agree totally with 1, find 2 to be an eminently reasonable conclusion, but reject 3.

So why should I be penalized for such a position?

US links to terror incl 'Al Qaeda'

Stone: "All manner of claims have been made about there being a connection between Al Qaeda and the CIA. However, none are ever properly substantiated and verifiable."

Please elaborate; what have you looked at, and what are your issues with it?

Have you read parts 1 and 2 of Nafeez Ahmed's "War on Truth"?

And as SnowCrash pointed out, Chossudovsky has written extensively on the connections

a couple online articles:

Nafeez Ahmed - "Ties With Terror: The Continuity of Western-Al-Qaeda Relations in the Post-Cold War Period"
http://www.911blogger.com/node/2966

U.S. and Allied Intelligence Services Had Penetrated The Very Highest Levels of Al Qaeda Prior to 9/11 - George Washington
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2008/03/us-and-allied-intelligence-...

http://911reports.com
http://www.historycommons.org

quite right,stone

But you see,truth is not whats being sought...what people like is airing their views regardless of their truthfulness.
Youre penalised because your views dont suit those in control.

The idea that OBL was involved is absurd...But then having arabs involved tells me that arab haters are pressing this point of view.

yes

quite right,stone
AND speculation is thehobgoblin of little minds...

Strategy of Tension

I also believe that Sibel Edmonds is telling the truth, and the implication is that the Embassy bombings and attack on the USS Cole were proxy hits, done on behalf of US intelligence--- given that he was an operative up until Sept. 11. Maybe this explains why no one has ever been convicted for any of these crimes? It might explain why Bin Laden was not captured during the Clinton Administration, and why Madeline Albright twice refused his handover (reportedly). The "Strategy of Tension" explains this.

*Bin Laden not captured during the Clinton or Bush jr. administrations.
*Bin Laden used to be US operative---- and continued to be up til 9/11---by a trustworthy source.
*No convictions for any of these " Bin Laden crimes."
*No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.

Those embassy bombings

While the 'most wanted' entry for Bin Laden on the FBI's website makes no mention of 9/11 (as is well known to visitors to 9/11blogger), it does mention the August 1998 embassy bombings in east Africa (also the USS Cole bombing, if I'm not mistaken).

But it is also known that one Ali Mohamed was very much involved in those same embassy bombings. If I remember correctly, he was an in the Egyptian military and came to the U.S. in some sort of officer exchange program (I guess it's some way for 'friendly' militaries to learn from one another), and even trained troops at Fort Bragg at one time. His history, related on this site through posts by Peter Dale Scott (possibly others), sure looks like that of some kind of protected asset of powerful forces in the U.S. government.

I believe Ralph Schoenman has also spoken in his talks of evidence--covered in some news outlets, but of course never hammered home to the American public--that the embassy bombings were another false-flag event.

So, yes, it would well behoove the 9/11 truth movement (myself included) to learn more about the African embassy bombings--perhaps most of all because it was really in the aftermath of those attacks that Bin Laden, the eventual bogeyman for 9/11, was introduced as the formidable 'new threat' to most of the U.S. public. Before then, he was someone known pretty much only to those Americans who had detailed knowledge of the Afganistan war of the '80s.

Indeed you are!

and if you look carefully on that plots, you will find out fast.

Khalid Sheik Mohammed was the uncle of Ramzi Yousef. Yousef was brought into the New York Brooklyn terror cell right after they made calls to iraq. Otherwise you couldn't explain how he arrived just three weeks later after the first of these phonecalls and literally knocks on their door in NY. Coincidence? Or the Amdoc-option? Some right-wingers claim that this is evidence for an iraq-conspiracy. But who has really the possibilty to get the telephone data?
It's get even better: Known CIA-operative Ali Mohammed trained some of the 1993 terror plotters, even with material from Fort Bragg, were we get all the disinfo-deceptions from. He was eventually sentened, but nobody knows how long and where. This is clearly a smoking gun regarding the strategy of tension.
Emad Salem was a FBI mole in the terror cell, and he recorded all his meetings with John Anticev, I-49-squad New York. Antiterrorforce. Yet despite his knowledge and warnings the plot to bomb the WTC back in 93 proceeded and suceeded. Nancy Floyd, who recruited him, almost lost her career.
As the blind sheik was in prison, there was a precedent case with his lawyer, Lynne Stewart, so that never any info from him would come to light.
The main question regarding the USS Cole back then and today: How could they know when and where the ship arrived for a tanking stop? It's not just that this was announced beforehand, but the plotters needed some time to placed the ship with the bomb.
John O'Neill was clearly aware of this, he was together with Ali Soufan as near as one could possible get to the plot before one had to die.
Just use the Paul Thompson timeline. It's all in there.

Belief? vs 9-11 Truth

'I believe Sibel Edmonds is telling the truth'

What has this to do with 9-11 Truth? Leave 'BELIEF' in your church.

Belief? vs 9-11 Truth

'I believe Sibel Edmonds is telling the truth'

What has this to do with 9-11 Truth? Leave 'BELIEF' in your church.

Belief? vs 9-11 Truth

'I believe Sibel Edmonds is telling the truth'

What has this to do with 9-11 Truth? Leave 'BELIEF' in your church.

Source of videos?

Do you know the source of the videos? By the way, why diod the us govt even bother with videos linking OBL witb 9-11,lf it all points back to the US? but the videoes are UNSOURCED. AND notice how audios replaced videos...

' I don't think Osama Bin Laden had to be intimately involved with the 9/11 attacks, or involved at all really. '
\
a step in the right direction...as he hasnt been shown hi fiving 9-11 attacks, and denies it a number of times...
Your explanations defy Occams razor and just get more byzantine....

'Was Osama's band used by elements within the U.S. for 9/11?'

No...show me video evidence this band passed thru airport security?

'The point is, if what Sibel says is true, and personally, I think we have every reason to believe it is, '

Sans evidence, if not accept it as true...As for 'believe'....!!!!!!!!!!!!

That point about

..audio replacing video is a very valid point, imho.

Times of India

reports this story:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/NEWS/World/US/US-Osama-had-close-ties...

And where are US mainstream media? Still nothing.

Show "your pushing it simuvac" by brianct

Bin Laden evidence

"The date the video was made is disputed by analyst Maher Osseiran. Several commentators questioned whether the person depicted in the video is actually Osama."

Okay, this is hit and run argument.

I have talked extensively with Maher Osseiran about this issue (email) and he is of the opinion that the person in the video is absolutly Osama bin Laden. And, that bin Laden was caught in a sting, prior to the start of the Afghan war.

His analysis is very interesting. So was the Muckraker Report series on the videos.

The reason that bin laden appeared "fat" in the videos was a simple video format conversion issue (PAL to NTSC), which squishes the vertical by 17%.

Osseiran points out that there are other identifiable people in the video, and that their role and whereabouts are also relevant.

As much evidence points to US / Saudi / Bin Laden connections over many years, I'm not sure why people have to harp on this point. Bin Laden claimed no involvement. Bin Laden also issued a Fatwa in 1998 encouraging just this sort of thing.

It's hard to take the word of Osama bin Laden at face value, especially considering what was to lose, and what was to gain at the time.

Pragmatically, no one else, particularly in America, are going to extend much credibility to the denials of the world's most wanted man, and a known terrorist prior to 9/11. As far as evidence goes, this denial ranks pretty low.

As for what's on the tape -- I don't speak Arabic. I don't know exactly. Some of the translations are very damning. This is a point of dispute (not settled fact).

URGENT ACTION NEEDED: CONTACT THE OBAMA WHITE HOUSE AND JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND NOTIFY THEM OF BUSH'S TREASON RELATED TO THE 9/11 ATTACKS (SAMPLE)

'It's hard to take the word

'It's hard to take the word of Osama bin Laden at face value, especially considering what was to lose, and what was to gain at the time. '

on the contrary, his denial of involvement has the ring of truth,and the added support of the lack of evidence he was involved!

'Pragmatically, no one else, particularly in America, are going to extend much credibility to the denials of the world's most wanted man, and a known terrorist prior to 9/11. As far as evidence goes, this denial ranks pretty low.'

he wasnt wanted by the FBI for 9-11...What credibility do dumb american have when they backed their govt in 2 wars! OBLs denial ranks high, because the evidence favors his story not the neocons, whom you are ironically backing!

Did u trust the Bush admin to tell the truth? You are now!

ties with terror

Bin Laden has a long history of involvement in terrorism and made statements and took actions prior to 9/11 indicating foreknowledge:
http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=osama_bin_laden
http://www.fas.org/blog/secrecy/2008/09/bin_ladin_statements.html

Yet he says:
"I have already said that I am not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other human beings as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people."

He also says:
"The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself; the people who are a part of the US system but are dissenting against it. Or those who are working for some other system; persons who want to make the present century as a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity so that their own civilization, nation, country, or ideology can survive. They may be anyone, from Russia to Israel and from India to Serbia. In the US itself, there are dozens of well-organized and well-equipped groups capable of causing large-scale destruction. Then you cannot forget the American Jews, who have been annoyed with President Bush ever since the Florida elections and who want to avenge him.

Then there are intelligence agencies in the US, which require billions of dollars worth of funds from Congress and the government every year. This [funding issue] was not a big problem until the existence of the ex-Soviet Union but after that the budget of these agencies has been in danger. They needed an enemy. So, they first started propaganda against Osama and the Talibans and then this incident happened."
http://www.justresponse.net/Bin_Laden1.html

a full investigation is in order. As Nafeez Ahmed has documented in The War on Truth, Bin Laden and Al Qaeda were used as proxies by the Western elites/intel, as well as the ISI and Saudi Arabia- and Israel also has a history of using terrorists as proxies- searching these entities on historycommons.org will return numerous relevant links from mainstream (i.e. credible by their own standard) sources

Nafeez Ahmed - "Ties With Terror: The Continuity of Western-Al-Qaeda Relations in the Post-Cold War Period"
http://www.911blogger.com/node/2966

EDIT: Speculating on Bin Laden's denials and the failure of the US/other govts to produce hard evidence of Bin Laden's guilt:

Bin Laden may never have previously understood the extent to which intel agencies/elites considered him an 'asset'. He may not have known the ultimate source of some of his funding and other support. He may have even thought he had 'moles' inside the Saudi/Pakistani/US/other govts. After 9/11, seeing the way the WTC was completely destroyed and perhaps other elements, he may have realized that 9/11 (and therefore his plans) had been coopted, and so his 2 denials may have been aimed at monkeywrenching the plans of those who perhaps had expected him to claim credit for 9/11.

Perhaps the reason no hard evidence has ever been produced by the US or other nations of Bin Laden's involvement is that all the evidence they have also implicates parties/agencies who are being protected; at least 11 countries passed on warnings, there is evidence Al Qaeda was infiltrated, the US had plenty of warning signs and intel of its own- and instead of disrupting the plot, obstructed FBI investigations that might have disrupted it. Who's afraid of a full investigation- one that addresses the most important evidence and questions? Perhaps the same people who stacked and steered the 9/11 Omission Commission, and control the MSM, our economy and political process?

This is all speculation. There needs to be a full investigation.

Pics of Brzezinski and Bin Laden:
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=brzezinski+bin+laden&gbv=2&aq=f&...

http://911reports.com
http://www.historycommons.org

really, John...please come back to earth

'It's hard to take the word of Osama bin Laden at face value, especially considering what was to lose, and what was to gain at the time. '

'Okay, this is hit and run argument.'

Indeed... i smell road kill

on the contrary, his denial of involvement has the ring of truth,and the added support of the lack of evidence he was involved!

'Pragmatically, no one else, particularly in America, are going to extend much credibility to the denials of the world's most wanted man, and a known terrorist prior to 9/11. As far as evidence goes, this denial ranks pretty low.'

he wasnt wanted by the FBI for 9-11...What credibility do dumb american have when they backed their govt in 2 wars! OBLs denial ranks high, because the evidence favors his story not the neocons, whom you are ironically backing!

Did u trust the Bush admin to tell the truth? You are now!

No idea who this Osserian is,but id not trust him anymore than a neocon.Why take his word at face value!?

'URGENT ACTION NEEDED: CONTACT THE OBAMA WHITE HOUSE AND JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND NOTIFY THEM OF BUSH'S TREASON RELATED TO THE 9/11 ATTACKS (SAMPLE)'

are u serious, John??? Do you expect them not to dump this in the WPB file???

whose rating the comments?

I notice those who criticise simuvac get negative ratings (and hidden),while those who agree get positive (and displayed)? Isnt this a form of censorhip

it's a way of expressing opinion

approval/agreement or disapproval/disagreement

I usually click the 'show' button to see what got voted down- this often attracts my attention more than even highly rated comments.

So, "no", it's not a "form of censorship".

Sometimes comments get deleted that violate forum rules, and sometimes users get temp restriction or even banned for repeated violations. This is still not "censorship" as this is a private forum; those who want to remain welcome as guests need to follow the rules.

Human beings have a right to free speech, and this right is allegedly protected in the US and other countries; anyone is free to start their own blog and spout whatever lies and BS, or truth and and facts that they want.

We have a limited amount of frequencies licensed for use by TV, and these are given for free to stations owned by conglomerates that control what news/views are aired- this is much closer to "censorship", imho, as there's a limited range of options and the news/views presented don't represent what polls show the public's interested in- or represent our interests. There is no diversity, and Faux News won a lawsuit (Akre and Wilson vs Fox re: Monsanto http://www.prwatch.org/prwissues/1998Q2/foxbgh.html) on the basis that requiring them to have accurate/balanced reporting would violate the corporation's 'right' to free speech. The same corporate/establishment interests own or intersect with the big internet telcos and the best funded 'news'/establishment propaganda outlets on the web.

This is changing somewhat, as more and more people turn to the web- on the web people are bound to run into info that more accurately reflects reality than the TV, radio or newspapers- despite all the BS out here.

http://911reports.com
http://www.historycommons.org

Sibel Edmonds' story, ironically, is an example of censorship

by the state, even- she's the "most gagged person in US history" according to the ACLU

Look at what the corrupt and treasonous shills that have hijacked our economy, government and society did to the MFR of her testimony to the 9/11 Omission:
http://media.nara.gov/9-11/MFR/t-0148-911MFR-00236.pdf

Here's her profile:
http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=sibel_edmonds

Here's a primer:

Sibel Edmonds vs. the Nuclear Terrorists
http://911reports.wordpress.com/2008/08/16/sibel-edmonds-vs-the-nuclear-...

I find it 'incredible' that anyone who claims to support disclosure regarding 9/11 (the Truth) doesn't support disclosure of Sibel Edmonds' info- so We the People can see for ourselves if her date of birth is really a matter of 'national security', and whether these 'certain foreign business relations' are really in the interest of the United States.

http://911reports.com
http://www.historycommons.org

interesting how all who criticise jons view get -ve numbers

interesting how all who criticise jon's view get -ve numbers....

The rating system would tell me that people who come here are not very well informed about 9-11 truth,.or represent a clique.

'Human beings have a right to free speech, and this right is allegedly protected in the US and other countries; anyone is free to start their own blog and spout whatever lies and BS, or truth and and facts that they want. '

Youd be surprised how few bloggers believe this...ive been banned by left and right wing bloggers just because i expressed a view different to theirs. That view is typical of modern and esp american hypocrisy.

So just how did i get those negative numbers? Hmm...