Mukasey: 'very high' risk of attack over NYC 9/11 trial
November 13, 2009
Mukasey: 'very high' risk of attack over NYC 9/11 trial
Former Attorney General Michael Mukasey said today that it is highly likely that terrorists will attack New York City as a consequence of the Obama administration's decision to send five alleged Sept. 11 plotters there for trial in federal court.
During a question and answer period following a speech to a conservative legal group, Mukasey was asked about the possibility that there might be an escape by one or more prisoners.
"The [Metropolitan Correctional Center in Manhattan] is a very secure place....Is it secure? Of course, it’s secure. They’re not going to escape," Mukasey told a conference of the Federalist Society. "The question is not whether they're going to escape. The question is whether, not only that particular facility, but the city [at] large, will then become the focus for mischief in the form of murder by adherents of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed--whether this raises the odds that it will. I would suggest to you that it raises them very high."
Mukasey said the men now to be tried in New York should have been left before military commission proceedings at Guantanamo that were already in progress.
"The plan seems to be to abandon the view that we’re in a war," Mukasey said. "I can’t see anything good coming out of this. I certainly can’t see anything good coming out of it very quickly. And it think it would have been far preferable to try these case in the venue that Congress created for trying and where they were about to be tried."
Mukasey, a former federal judge who oversaw cases relating to the 1993 World Trade Center attacks, warned that a civilian court trial for the Sept. 11 plotters could produce " a cornucopia of information for those still at large and a circus for those still in custody."
However, despite his warnings about a terrorist attack on New York, Mukasey said he thought the legal system could carry out a fair and successful trial. He also said finding impartial jurors would not be much of a problem.
"Understand, I am a partisan of the Southern District of New York. I know of no jurisdiction where you could get people who are better prepared to deal with it, and that includes prosecutors, judges and jurors," he said. "But saying that, if you have to do it any place, that is a place to do it, is not the same as saying and should not be construed by anybody as saying that’s what I think should be done, because it isn’t."
Mukasey portrayed the idea of civilian trials as a reckless "social experiment" that the nation was likely to regret.
"If I thought that I or my family or my fellow citizens had three lives to live, I suppose I could be persuaded that we should live one of them as a social experiment to see whether the result here is one that we want to live with. But I don’t and they don’t and you don’t," he said. "It would take a whole lot more credulousness than I have available to be optimistic about the outcome of this latest experiment."
At a news conference this morning announcing the administration's decision, Attorney General Eric Holder disputed claims that having a 9/11-related trial in New York would endanger New Yorkers.
" New York has a long history of trying these kinds of cases," Holder said. "New York has a hardened system. We have talked to the Marshal Service there. An analysis was done about the capabilities that exist in New York, and I'm quite confident that we can safely hold people there, that we can protect the people who surround the courthouse area, and bring these cases successfully. So I don't think that that criticism is factually based."
Mukasey's remarks were viewed via a C-SPAN recording posted here.
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What a...
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? The facts speak for themselves.
Putz?
Unfortunately, this is the image I am starting to get whenever I hear anything out of Mukasey's mouth.
false flag set-up?
while obama continues to deny reality of what happened, the 9/11 investigation cover-up, this trial in nyc could be used as a target to engage another false flag deception attack.
that danger is very real..
jonathan
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Fit to transmit in post Cassini flyby era
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for life's survival in the 21st Century
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Is Mukasey a dual citizen with Israel?
YIKES...these criminals are REALLY beginning to squirm.
Once Obombya comes to understand that opening up the 9/11 investigation OUTSIDE the Pentagon's apparatus, he will find a mechanism for BOTH the solution to, and the justification for stemming the demise he/we are now deeply involved within as a nation. He may even get past Rahm Emanuel's influences...
Honestly, the 9/11 Truth Movement is the PERFECT concept with which he can change the things that he may? want to change.
9/11 Truth leads to the deepest corruption in the USofA's governance and the obediance to the Pentagon, it's Intel THUGS and of course, AIPAC...and maybe he actually wants so make some significant changes.
Obombya has stated that dissent is patriotic...and he wants to hear from all sides.
Seems to me that we have an invitation to dinner at the White House...so lets just keep up what we are doing...POLITELY AND RESPECTFULLY...
We do not need to YELL at anyone anymore...we just need to talk, explain, show, encourage, educate, and give people a starting point into the 9/11 Truth Rabitt Hole...citizens will take it from there...
BUT...for me at the moment...its Obombya and NOT Obama...and I'm in the streets with this message...
9/11 TRUTH for World PEACE
Robin Hordon
Kingston, WA
o'bombya!!! LOVE IT
darkbeforedawn
Does anyone remember just how Mukasey ties in with 911 investigation in the past? Did he function in some capacities for insurance settlements or did he handle potential witness statements....can't quite remember....
He was the U.S. District judge in New York
to whom all 911 related cases were funneled until he took the Attorney General post in Sept. 2007.
I believe he was the presiding judge in Larry Silverstein's insurance settlement cases.
The Man Is A Sociopath
Mukasey wasn't afraid that torture would cause a terrorist attack when he was brown nosing for the Bush dictatorship!
Mukasey was the judge that covered up the FBI's involvement in the 1993 WTC bombing. The bomb that went off was made by the FBI!
See the article "The World Trade Center Attacks in Perspective" at www.DNotice.org for more on Mukasey.
Dean Jackson/Editor-in-Chief DNotice.org
Washington, DC
"Is Mukasey a dual citizen with Israel?"
Robin, what evidence do you have that Mukasey is a dual citizen with Israel?
Are you suggesting that all Jews are uniquely corrupt?
Robin - "USofA's governance and the obediance to the Pentagon, it's Intel THUGS and of course, AIPAC"
The US and all the world's governments are manipulated according to the perceived economic, social and political interests of those in the wealthiest class- and this class includes Jews, but is not limited to Jews. What evidence do you have that Jews influence the US govt disproportionate to their wealth, controlling for the factors of Christian Fundamentalist 'Zionist' support, and the interests of the US military-industrial-oil Establishment in having a close ally in the Middle East?
http://911reports.com
http://www.historycommons.org
He has none...
And was shown that he has none in this thread. However, as we can see, he continues to promote the idea that all of these people have dual citizenships with Israel even though they do not (and gets voted up). As I said here, part of what is perceived as "anti-semitic" is making up stories about "dual citizenship" which have been shown to be false over and over again, just to create a narrative that involves Israel." This kind of behavior should not be tolerated, and those who participate in it should not be promoted in the 9/11 Truth Movement. This is, of course, my opinion.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? The facts speak for themselves.
darkbeforedawn that's a very
darkbeforedawn
that's a very interesting question....
perhaps you could give us evidence that they DON'T have a disproportionate influence on government, economics and the media in this country....I would love to see that evidence! Please do post it, loose nuke since you claim to have that fact established....
"since you claim to have that fact established...."
What I said:
"The US and all the world's governments are manipulated according to the perceived economic, social and political interests of those in the wealthiest class- and this class includes Jews, but is not limited to Jews."
darkbeforedawn, since you also used the word "disproportionate", I assume you are not disputing that the wealthy class among peoples of other races wield a corrupt influence. However, your statement implies you believe that Jews do wield a corrupt influence disproportionate to their wealth (and their numbers)- is that true, you believe that?
If so, it would seem that you believe that Jews are 'special', genetically more intelligent than all other races, or they're 'God's chosen people', or they've sold their souls to the Devil, or that Jews are simply uniquely greedier and more ruthless and corrupt than any other race- could you elaborate on what you believe, and provide some evidence to back it up?
It's not self-evident to most people, though to you and Robin it may be- so go ahead, make your case.
http://911reports.com
http://www.historycommons.org
darkbeforedawn Well for
darkbeforedawn
Well for example, Loose Nuke, Mormons and Quakers are known to possess considerable wealth in this society in the United States.....yet a Mormon judge or politician is a rare sight indeed as are Quaker judges politicians or law makers....
There are many quite well off minorities in this country who do not have any influence whatsoever on the actions of our government.
Can you say the same of this particular minority?
Just askin.....
non-influencial?
Richard M Nixon -Quaker
Glenn Beck -Mormon
i'd be interested to see the results of a study
anyone know it's been done:
per capita income/wealth by race, in the US and worldwide, current and historical
% of high offices, public and private, by race, in the US and worldwide, current and historical
An analysis of involvement in high crimes would be difficult, as wealthy criminals often use legal means of committing crimes, or insulate themselves by having proxies do the dirty work, and while they're sometimes identified by proximity and eliminating other possibilities, they're rarely prosecuted or convicted.
However, it should be possible to analyze economic, social and political expenditures/subsidies and determine the ultimate beneficiaries, by class/race/nation, current and historical.
Various sociological studies have already documented that the wealthy benefit disproportionately- i haven't seen it broken down by race.
And whatever the results are- what is the reason they are the way they are?
darkbeforedawn, do you have an explanation?
http://911reports.com
http://www.historycommons.org
confusing....
darkbeforedawn
wish I could answer your question, LN, but I can't decipher exactly what it is you are asking....
In the meantime I wonder how people would be feeling if Muslims had packed The Project for the New American Century and signed their names about hoping for a "New Pearl Harbor"....
If Muslims had presided over the insurance settlement of the WTC...
and if Muslim judges had sent witnesses to the crimes out of the US before anyone would question them in depth....and if a Muslim had been appointed head of Homeland Security....
Just mulling this over a bit...
But still not sure what it is you are asking...
I'm asking how much
I'm asking how much does ethnicity, nationality, religion or race have to do with their responsibility for 9/11, or with investigating it. As well as other subversions/betrayals of the Constitution, the public interest and human rights. How much?
While a person's ethnicity, nationality, religion or race might give some clues as to their motives, which might help lead investigators to ask useful questions, is it going to make any difference in their guilt? I don't think so.
It's true the PNAC authors, and those in key positions who 'failed' to prevent 9/11, and who obstructed investigations/'failed' to investigate before and after 9/11 included Jews- AND White Americans. Those who 'failed' at the CIA, FBI, FAA, NMCC, NORAD, Secret Service were primarily/all White Americans. Anyone know about the NSA?
It's also true some of the money we know about, as well as logistical support, came from Saudi Arabia Royals/GID and Pakistan ISI- and inquiries into these things were shut down as well.
So, what role does a person's ethnicity, nationality, religion or race play in the big picture?
http://911reports.com
http://www.historycommons.org
ethnicity race nationality
darkbeforedawn
would seem on the surface to have absolutely nothing to do with the responsibility that INDIVIDUALS bear who have participated in the crimes that we now refer to as "911".....and yes those are to a large extent, white Americans.....which I suppose would include Jews.
But Jews as far as I know are NOT an ethnicity, race or nationality....Judaism is a RELIGION--not that it really matters in the large scheme of things....
What I consider by far to be a greater significance than 911 is the ongoing crime of the cover up and the on going treason of the media ignoring every piece of evidence that has come to light including the peer reviewed findings of Niel Harrit et al about nanothermite.
Does anyone dare to examine who is controlling this cover up and whether it involve race, nationality, ethnicity or religion? This is a crime not only against Americans, but against humanity.
ethnicity/religion/nationality
A little beside your point, but just to clarify, Wikipedia and my experience with Jewish friends suggest that to be Jewish is NOT simply or even overwhelmingly a matter of having the faith. I have friends in the US of various ethnicities who have converted to Judaism (they call themselves Jews), and I have ethnic Jewish friends who do not participate at all in Judaism and care nothing for Israeli politics. They call themselves Jewish as well.
The toxic element is not identified by whether people are Jews (duh), but whether they are criminals and traitors to this nation, and for that matter, to humanity. And a good indicator in my book seems to be a strong identification with the current Israeli administration and the suffocating politics of death and fear that seems to be the major by-product of US-Israeli relations, whether someone is Jewish or not, a dual citizen or not.
No reason to conflate them, just as I would not want to be seen as supporting US foreign policy under W.
"Does anyone dare to examine who is controlling this cover up"
"Does anyone dare to examine who is controlling this cover up and whether it involve race, nationality, ethnicity or religion? This is a crime not only against Americans, but against humanity."
Yes, it's a crime against humanity, and yes, many are examining the cover up and those controlling it.
Does the cover up include Jews? Yes.
Do some Israeli hawks and Jewish neocon Zionists believe US intervention in Iraq, Iran and the Middle East promotes Israel's security? Yes.
Does the cover up include Caucasian nominal Christian and functional Atheist Americans? Yes. Do some Caucasian American hawks, Establishment elites, neocon-Zionists, big oil investors, defense/security contractors believe that US intervention in Iraq, Iran, the Middle East and Central Asia is good for their investments? Yes (and they may also believe it's crucial due to US long term energy security, due to Peak Oil)
Are they willing to partner with Israel and scratch their backs on certain things in order to advance their own personal interests? Yes.
Who is a Jew?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F
The Jews (Hebrew: יְהוּדִים, yehudim), also known as the Jewish people, are an ethnoreligious group originating in the Israelites or Hebrews of the Ancient Near East.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew
darkbeforedawn, given your statements/questions about who is controlling the media, i suppose you believe it's the Jews. Do you have an ownership chart showing the ethnic/racial breakdown of owners?
Here's one of the Big Six corporate conglomerates which control the majority of MSM outlets. Obviously, there's some Jews in here- and a lot of Caucasian 'Christian' heritage Americans. Many of the most powerful people involve also sit on the boards of other companies with vested interests in the current corrupt established social order; defense, finance, insurance, etc. Greed for money and power and a desire to protect the system that affords them their position and privilege unites them.
http://www.freepress.net/ownership/chart/main
http://www.freepress.net/ownership/chart/main
http://911reports.com
http://www.historycommons.org
http://911reports.com
http://www.historycommons.org
examining the cover-up
darkbeforedawn
This was a great reply, LN, and yes I have seen numerous charts listing the CEO's and ownership the most influential media entities...
Specifically, Hollywood entertainment which has been vastly formative in the thought processes of Americans (sadly)
You would have to be liar and a fool to state that Jews(zionists) do not control that realm almost exclusively.
However, that does not lessen the responsibility and the guilt of the numerous others who also wield influence and power as putative "objective" purveyors of information and "news"...
These organizations have acted as one monstrous monolith and failed us....failed us at every level.
They should be held accountable....in our schools, In our universities, in our government agencies and in our churches and yes, even in our Shuls...
When will that happen?
"I have seen numerous charts"
"I have seen numerous charts listing the CEO's and ownership the most influential media entities... Specifically, Hollywood entertainment which has been vastly formative in the thought processes of Americans (sadly) You would have to be liar and a fool to state that Jews(zionists) do not control that realm almost exclusively."
darkbeforedawn, you really need to back up a claim like that with at least 1 link; it doesn't help the rest of us if you say you've seen them and we can't see them for ourselves.
It seems you're making a claim primarily about Hollywood, not the entire MSM universe. It would also be instructive to see some documentation and analysis of the alleged Zionist message that's been put out, and documentation of how it's been "formative in the thought process of Americans". As Israel's problems are not a big concern of Americans, I'm skeptical that's true.
Israel's problems- and the problems of any interest that generates large contributions- are the concern of politicians. And you're right, they essentially act as a monstrous monolith- that serves the social-economic-political interests of the 'elite' class. The system is corrupt; the Democrats, Republicans, MSM and Federal Reserve serve the perceived interests of the 'elite' class, not the public interest. They are not going to change, but if they continue screwing things up, the enough people may withdraw their support, and invest in independent media and candidates, to make a difference.
http://911reports.com
http://www.historycommons.org
sorry
darkbeforedawn
I have lost my link. You can google and find out for yourself who owns the entire movie industry. There is not really any controversy in that department. I don't need to prove it and I'm really not very interested in it.
But you are fooling yourself if you believe the entertainment industry has not been fundamentally formative in the mindset of American's youth for the last 50 years.
Race
LN: "If so, it would seem that you believe that Jews are 'special', genetically more intelligent than all other races, or they're 'God's chosen people', or they've sold their souls to the Devil, or that Jews are simply uniquely greedier and more ruthless and corrupt than any other race- could you elaborate on what you believe, and provide some evidence to back it up?"
Personally I don't believe in 'race', but it seems you think the 'Jews' are one (darkbeforedawn only mentioned religions). I wonder how many other 'races' do you think there are?
Ridiculous
When do we start censoring Robin, now?
Please stop with the distractions.
I think Robin was referring to dual-citizenship. So you jump from that, to 'all Jews being corrupt' crap?
It's evident for all to see that in the upper echelons of this government, there were (before/during 911)
many people who had extreme loyalties/devotion to the country of Israel.
I personally have a problem with that.
I would have the SAME PROBLEM had there been people there with extreme loyalties to the country of NORWAY!....(but maybe i'm just conspiracy-minded). It just doesn't seem equitable at all!
I don't really care if these people in question (Mukasey, Skelator, Wolfowitz, Feith, et al..) have a piece of paper showing dual-citizenship or not.
I don't need to see that, to know that by their actions they have shown that they are fanatics for Israel. And i think anyone with truth & justice on their minds, should have a problem with that.
The 'problem' is with 'fundamentalism' of any stripe....be it Zionist, Christian, Islamic, etc....in nature.
Nothing wrong with loving the country of your ancestors....but that's not what we're talking about.
In this case, in the U.S. gov't, as Bill & Kathleen Christison have stated....."loyalty to Israel by government officials colors and influences U.S. policymaking in ways that are extremely dangerous."(!!!!)
Obviously. And they should know, being ex-CIA.
asking for evidence is censorship?
Robin's the one who made the claim of Mukasey's dual citizenship, and of the US govt being the puppet of the Pentagon, 'Intel thugs'- "and of course, AIPAC"
"I don't really care if these people in question (Mukasey, Skelator, Wolfowitz, Feith, et al..) have a piece of paper showing dual-citizenship or not."
Right- what's important is if they're loyal to the Constitution and the US- if they're not, they shouldn't hold high office. And if they've committed crimes- and unless someone can show that 'Zionism' or 'dual-citizenship' is a valuable predictor of criminal actions, what use is it to make these claims? And 'Zionist' is just a 'PC' code word for JEW (most Zionists are Christian fundamentalists, but we all know that's not who people that talk about 'Zionists' are talking about)
http://911reports.com
http://www.historycommons.org
No, not just a code word
' 'Zionist' is just a 'PC' code word for JEW'
Nonsense--'Zionist' denotes an ideology and a degree of committment to that ideology.
1) Not all Zionists are Jews--we know this! But whether Jewish, Christian, secularist or something else, Zionists have a definite view favoring the claims, interests, etc. of Jews vis a vis Muslims and Arabs within Israel and the occupied territories; and of the state of Israel vis a vis its predominantly Muslim neighbors.
2) Not all Jews are Zionists.
Yes, sometimes antisemites will try to hide behind use of the term 'Zionist' when what they really mean are Jews. But that doesn't entitle us to pretend that that is the term's only use, or its true meaning.
In the post above referring to dual citizenship, I saw a question mark at the end--not a claim.
not 'just' a code word
Have you read many of Robin's other comments? The giveaway in that particular comment is the inclusion of "USofA's governance and the obediance to the Pentagon, it's Intel THUGS and of course, AIPAC." and omitting mention of all the mostly White defense contractor lobbies, as well as the influence that the Christian Right Zionists have on GOP politics, as far as beneficiaries of 9/11 and supporters of Israel go.
Our government is unduly influenced by the 1% that control the vast majority of wealth in this country, and corruption/abuse/exploitation is an obvious problem in the financial/industrial/insurance/security/defense sectors. They're not all Jews, or even mostly Jews- are they disproportionately Jewish? In any case, why single Jews out- how important is the Jewish aspect? Especially when singling out Jews gives fodder to the detractors?
http://911reports.com
http://www.historycommons.org
Singling out?
Including mention of AIPAC with other groups and institutions who have clout in Washington is just that--inclusion with others and NOT 'singling out' one of them. And what is being included in this case--by referring to AIPAC-- is an organized lobbying group, not an entire ethnic or religious category within the U.S. population.
Antisemites, on the other hand, most certainly do single out Jews within the ruling elites to the exclusion of non-Jews; and, moreover, they make no differentiation between these small numbers of Jews within ruling circles and the rest of the Jewish population--just paint them all with one broad brush.
When you look at these ruling elites, you will see both Gentiles (if that term isn't too archaic) and Jews. And when you look at political movements trying to counter those elites and their agendas, you will also see both Gentiles and Jews. Thus, such labels aren't very helpful in political analysis.
Zionism, on the other hand, refers to a kind of political ideology and action and belongs in discussions of what's going on in U.S. politics--particularly in view of the overlap between pro-Israel groups and military-industrial interests.
I agree- your points are not in contradiction to what I've said
However, to expand on two of your points which relate directly to another other point I was making:
"Antisemites, on the other hand, most certainly do single out Jews within the ruling elites to the exclusion of non-Jews; and, moreover, they make no differentiation between these small numbers of Jews within ruling circles and the rest of the Jewish population--just paint them all with one broad brush."
The above statement is a fact.
"Including mention of AIPAC with other groups and institutions who have clout in Washington is just that--inclusion with others and NOT 'singling out' one of them. And what is being included in this case--by referring to AIPAC-- is an organized lobbying group, not an entire ethnic or religious category within the U.S. population."
And the above statement is literally true, as a snapshot. It's also true that not everyone who criticizes AIPAC and Israeli crimes is anti-semitic. It's also true that people who are anti-semitic (or who desire that the 9/11 Truth Movement be portrayed and perceived as anti-semitic) seize on AIPAC's influence and evidence of Israeli crimes as justification of their anti-semitism, and single them out.
The continuing cover up of 9/11, the propaganda for the OCT, and the efforts to discredit and marginalize the 9/11 Truth Movement have, among other techniques, used mis and disinfo to further those goals.
No planes, holograms, video fakery and space beams are some obvious examples which most people here probably agree are disinfo created with the intention of discrediting the 9/11 Truth Movement by associating 'truthers' with these claims. And some real people may sincerely believe these things and be promoting them in good faith- even though there's no hard evidence for them, and a lot of evidence against them.
In the same vein, a meme has been circulating in the 9/11 Truth Movement that '[the] Zionists' (i.e. the Jews) did 9/11. This meme feeds into the anti-semitic prejudices of some, in the same way the official myth about Islamic radical hijackers has feed into the anti-Muslim/Arab prejudices of many Americans. This explains why the '4000 Jews didn't show up for work' false claim got so much circulation, and why some focus almost exclusively on the evidence that Jews were involved, and ignore the evidence that Caucasian Americans and Saudi/Pakistani Intel also played a role.
These prejudices have been exploited to marginalize and discredit the 9/11 Truth Movement by portraying it as anti-semitic and irrational, thus perpetuating the cover up. That's what I'm objecting to. Those who are anti-semitic should realize that by selectively interpreting and promoting evidence, the chances for a full investigation- one that would actually address the role of certain Jews in the 9/11 crimes and cover up- are being reduced. Funny- that's probably exactly what certain Jews (and certain Caucasian 'Christian' Americans) want.
Divide and Conquer
http://911review.com/disinfo/divide.html
http://911reports.com
http://www.historycommons.org
I love when people cite censorship...
When all it really is, is trying to be responsible by promoting the best information possible.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? The facts speak for themselves.
Evidence
LN: "What evidence do you have that Jews influence the US govt disproportionate to their wealth, controlling for the factors of Christian Fundamentalist 'Zionist' support, and the interests of the US military-industrial-oil Establishment in having a close ally in the Middle East?"
So basically you want to ignore:
1. Money
2. Religion
3. Politics
If you believe these to have an effect, why do you want to dismiss them as evidence?
I...
Came across a documentary made by the BBC about the Nuremberg Trials. I don't remember which video it was, but one of them mentioned how the Nazi ideology believed that the Jews controlled the world. The bankers, the press, etc... etc... etc... That was interesting to me because how often do we hear "in our circles" how the "Zionists/Jews control this," and the "Zionists/Jews control that?" A LOT.
I looked into it a little bit, and as it turns out, they're right.
"On the one hand, Hitler identified the Jews as slum dwellers of Vienna who were ‘water-shy ... [with an] ignoble exterior.’ On the other hand, he identified both Social Democrats and the press as Jews. Moreover they were Marxists seeking to destroy national economies and trying to ‘establish a central organisation for their international swindling and cheating’.
Rather clumsily, Hitler portrays Jews as leaders in politics and banking, both groups seeking to strengthen their cause, Zionism, to ensure Jewish domination. From his Social Darwinist perspective, Hitler perceived a racial war as inevitable and he sought to halt the ‘Jewish drive towards world conquest’. In this way he attributes Jews with his own nefarious aims."
I don't thinking sharing the same mindset as the Nazis will help this movement. That is, of course, my opinion.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? The facts speak for themselves.
I...
don't see what any of that has to do with my comment.
Are you trying to insinuate that I have the mindset of a Nazi?
Not at all...
Just pointing something out that I came across.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? The facts speak for themselves.
Well then..
..thanks for the 'info', but please try to stay on topic.
I thought I was...
Do you agree that sharing the mindset of the Nazis would not be in the best interest of the 9/11 Truth Movement?
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? The facts speak for themselves.
Well..
..you weren't, and aren't. I didn't even mention Nazis, so stop going on about them, you're obsessed.
Not at all...
I'm just pointing out that saying the Zionists/Jews are responsible for all of the world's problems is no different than what the Nazis believed. You never answered my question.
Would anyone like to answer my question? A simple yes or no will suffice.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? The facts speak for themselves.
No..
.. I wouldn't like to answer your ridiculous question, but for the sake of this thread (and my patience), here you go:
NO.
Now piss off and take your Nazi oriented hypotheticals with you.
Good...
Then I hope you work to counter individuals who make arguments like that.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? The facts speak for themselves.
So basically you want to ignore:
ID- "So basically you want to ignore:
1. Money
2. Religion
3. Politics
If you believe these to have an effect, why do you want to dismiss them as evidence?"
My comments here began with asking Robin why he's calling Mukasey a dual citizen; Robin has presented no evidence of that, and is probably simply inferring it cuz Mukasey is of Jewish descent (race; genetics) and therefore has a "right of return" under Israeli law.
Furthermore, Robin's comment history shows he blames 'Zionists' for 9/11 and seems to believe the US govt is Israel's puppet- as apparently do others here. To believe this requires 'ignoring' the influence of money- and the interests of those who have lots of it. Imho, money is the primary influence- not Jewishness or 'Zionism'. Politics follows money. Personally, I don't think 'religion' has much to do with the decisions of the elite class- it's mainly about money and power, and they use politics and religion as it serves their interests.
'Race' is a meaningless term- on a genetic level, human beings are functionally indistinguishable from one another. Socio-economic conditions, inside and outside the home, have far more influence on future outcomes than one's genetic lineage. The differences between different nations and peoples are primarily cultural, and culture is an artificial- invented- paradigm.
http://911reports.com
http://www.historycommons.org
It seems...
That people here are more concerned about blaming Israel than they are about presenting accurate information. If they made their case on "dual loyalty" as opposed to "dual citizenship," that might be considered accurate. However, they have chosen to support information that has been shown to be false just to make their case. Not exactly the conduct you would expect in a "truth movement."
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? The facts speak for themselves.
Culture etc.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I basically agree I think, and certainly don't see attacking/blaming a 'race', religion or nationality as being constructive.
Pedantically though, I would have to say that genetics can have a huge difference on your life (both parents blind etc.)
Still, I'm perplexed that you think 'race' is a meaningless term, yet applied it to the 'Jews'. If it's just a cultural thing, isn't there a danger in applying such an ambiguous, genetically loaded term when we could instead use words like 'culture', 'society', 'tradition' or 'religion'?
my use of the word 'race'
I used it as some people define the world and human beings that way, and the topic of 'Jews' and 9/11 is a racially-charged topic. It's true that a kid born to parents who are blind for genetic reasons is more likely/possibly certain to be born blind. And a kid born to parents who are 'blind' due to cultural reasons is also likely to be blind. My understanding is that the different 'races' have produced different outcomes primarily due to cultural differences, not genetic ones. People tend to intermarry within their own 'race' due to cultural preferences/bias, not due to genetic incompatibility. Culture is an artificial construct, and it has a profound effect on our perceptions of reality and what's possible, though we're generally unaware of its effects. Like beliefs, people can change culture- we can't change our own genetic make up- yet, anyway.
This is the kind of subject wikipedia tends to be more reliable on:
"The term race or racial group usually refers to the categorization of humans into populations or groups on the basis of various sets of heritable characteristics.[1] The physical features commonly seen as indicating race are salient visual traits such as skin color, cranial or facial features and hair texture.[1][2]
Conceptions of race, as well as specific ways of grouping races, vary by culture and over time, and are often controversial for scientific as well as social and political reasons. The controversy ultimately revolves around whether or not the socially constructed and perpetuated beliefs regarding race are biologically warranted; and the degree to which differences in ability and achievement are a product of inherited "racial" (i.e., genetic) traits.[3][4]
Some argue that the taxonomic concept of race, although valid in regards to other species, does not (currently) apply to humans.[5] Many scientists have pointed out that traditional definitions of race are imprecise, arbitrary, have many exceptions, have many gradations, and that the numbers of races delineated vary according to the culture making the racial distinctions. Thus, those rejecting the notion of race typically do so on the grounds that such definitions and the categorizations which follow from them are contradicted by the results of genetic research.[6]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(classification_of_human_beings)
http://911reports.com
http://www.historycommons.org
cui bono ...
Mukasey and his fellow travelers, Chertoff, Guiliani, Silverstein, Wolfowitz, Zakheim, Zelicow et al ... have all benefited enormously from "terrorism" on American soil
hmmm
so did the Bush family, those who received 9/11 promotions, US defense contractors and the various allies in the so-called 'war on terror'; does that mean they're all JEWS, or does that mean that corruption isn't limited to one race?
http://911reports.com
http://www.historycommons.org
Dual US Israeli citizens
do seem to figure prominantly in the 9/11 operation ... this does not mean that Jews did 9/11. Maybe the neocon ideology is more attractive to US-Israeli dual citizens than to others, maybe their world view is more in keeping with the foreign policy objectives of USG, maybe they're all a bit smarter than average americans... who knows the real reason why so many high profile US-Israeli dual citizens seem to be involved in the commission of 9/11 and its cover-up. It is certainly a puzzeling aspect of the whole 9/11 conspiracy (if it was in fact a conspiracy and not merely an extraordinary sequence of coincidences)
Is it true
that the only dual citizenship permitted within the US state department and various other US intelligence agencies is with Israeli dual citizens of the US? I personally feel that dual citizenship with any country is an inherent conflict of interest for representatives in the US government.
However, I agree with loose nuke ...
it is not really necessary, or even helpful, to identify groups according to race, religion or nationality.
While there are certainly overlapping "communities of interest" involved, it is their "interests" that are relevant, not their race, religion or nationality.
We can readily identify some of these "communities of interest" ... for example, there's New York real estate and property developer interests, there's military industrial interests, there's big oil interests and of course, there's USG foreign policy interests.
It is in the overlap of these various "communities of interest" that we should look for evidence of conspiracy and collusion.
I'll say it again...
There is NO evidence that anyone accused of having a dual citizenship with Israel actually has one. None whatsoever.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? The facts speak for themselves.
dual citizenship with Israel ...
is simply an accusation, "there is NO evidence that anyone accused of having a dual citizenship with Israel actually has one. None whatsoever."
According to the US State Department, "The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy.Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice. For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. citizen parents may be both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the country of birth.
A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship."
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html
So an American citizen may end up a dual citizen of Israel through no choice of their own.
Furthermore, "The Government of Israel considers American citizens who also hold Israeli citizenship or have a claim to dual nationality to be Israeli citizens for immigration and other legal purposes. For example, an American citizen child of an Israeli parent will be considered an Israeli citizen by Israeli immigration officials and Israeli law will apply to the child's travel to, and departure from, Israel. U.S. citizens who are also citizens of Israel must enter and depart Israel using their current Israeli passport."
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1064.html
Therefore, it might be quite difficult to find evidence to establish dual US Israeli citizenship.
The exact number of those who hold dual Israeli-American citizenship is a closely held secret.
However, if a US citizen uses an Israeli passport to enter Israel, we can probably infer they are dual US Israeli citizens.
Nonetheless, dual US Israeli citizenship may not be a particularly important feature of the 9/11 conspiracy.
Indeed, the fact that PNAC neocons are ardently pro-Israel may not be especially relevant, either.
9/11 Truth = Public Relations
The campaign for 9/11 truth is a public relations task of the highest order. Public image is everything. It is a huge turn-off to issue pubic statements that use the "I" word (referring to the sovereign state of Is----) or the "J" word (referring to J---) or the "Z" word (referring to "Zio----) in the context of 9/11 Truth. You might as well say "Thejewsdid911andthestateofisraelisevil." The most convincing information comes from the analysis of the WTC video, audio, and dust -- data that are abundant and straightforward, but critical to understand. Perhaps a few newcomers will be attracted by references to "I", "J", and "Z", but I submit that most will be repelled.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
9/11 evidence
Searching Israel, United States, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia at historycommons.org turns up a great deal of evidence pointing to the involvement of state-level, state-supported and/or state-linked actors in 9/11. All this evidence needs to be investigated. Without the power to subpoena documents and testimony in a legitimate forum such as Congress, a Court or special Commission, there's only so much we're going to be able to prove about who knew and did what when, and the State has the sole authority, by will of the People, to hold people responsible- although we can vote with our ballots (ha), and with our minds, feet and our money.
People that single out Israel, or try to place the blame primarily on Israel (or 'Zionists' or THE JEWWWWWS) for 9/11 may simply be racist. However, it's worth noting that by doing so, by mixing racism into 9/11 inquiry, they are causing the 9/11 Truth Movement to be portrayed, perceived- and discredited- as racist.
Now who would want to do that? I imagine that whoever's benefiting from the 9/11 coverup certainly enjoys seeing that done.
http://911reports.com
http://www.historycommons.org
Speaking as an Italian American
I have felt for a long time that the mafia is the second lowest form of life on the planet. They are blood suckers on society etc. The lowest form of life are those who pretend to have the public interest at heart including politicians, police officers, judges, and various public service employees who betray us via bribes and corruption, The mafia jerk at least doesn't pretend to be anything other than the thug that he is. I have always despised movies and TV shows that have tried to glamorize mafia families like the godfather and sopranos etc. As a kid I had wanted to work for the FBI and my father asked whether I would have him arrested If it came to light he was breaking the law etc. I told him I would warn him but if he continued to break the law I would be obligated to my profession.........well all hell broke loose in my home and shortly thereafter I decided that another profession would be better. I was never really sure if my dad's initial positive response was only because he would have me " on the inside." Yes I am proud of my heritage and the culture produced by Italian people, but I don't hesitate to deplore the crimes, despair, and corruption associated with organized criminals involving some Italians. When someone with Jewish heritage stands up for justice for Palestine and recognizes the abuses by officials representing the state of Israel and puts American concepts of justice for all, equality and freedom first, I am truly impressed.
Right
Even if there were Americans, Israelis, Saudis, Kuwaitis, and any other nationality represented in the circle of perpetrators of 911 it does not reflect on the vast majority of people with those nationalities.
The problem here is whether the criminal perpetrators of 911 used state power to accomplish their crime. However, even then they are still just criminals who had infiltrated their government and whose behavior cannot be attributed to a nationality of people.
That is what...
I tried to convey in this article.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? The facts speak for themselves.
Good article
Jon,
Your article hit it right as far as individual men being to blame and not nationalities.
However, I would also add in this discussion that dual citizenship is not desirable in government positions and should be prohibited, as divided allegiance can lead to corruption.
Thanks...
But there is no evidence of dual citizenship, and there are a number of people who have dual citizenships. Doesn't mean they're bad people.
What makes people bad is accepting bribes to do things that benefit countries like Israel, or Turkey over the United States.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? The facts speak for themselves.
Unless..
..they're Israeli, or Turkish, presumably. Aren't bribes bad things anyway?
"What...
Makes people bad is accepting bribes to do things that benefit countries [...] over the United States."
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? The facts speak for themselves.
Glenn Greenwald
Glenn Greenwald has a good article on "dual influence"
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/07/02/israel_iran/index.html
Michael Mukasey
Michael Mukasey's father was born near Baranavichy in the Russian Empire (modern-day Belarus) and emigrated to the U.S. in 1921 Michael Mukasey was born in the Bronx in 1941. Mukasey graduated in 1959 from the Ramaz School, a Modern Orthodox Jewish prep school in Manhattan.
Mukasey was the second Jewish U.S. Attorney General.
Mukasey's son Marc L. Mukasey, as of 2007, leads the white-collar criminal defense practice in the New York office of Bracewell & Giuliani.[17] The Mukaseys have a professional relationship with Rudy Giuliani; Mukasey and son were also justice advisers to Rudy Giuliani's presidential campaign.[18] Mukasey administered the oath of office to Mayor-elect Giuliani in 1994 and 1998.
enough said eh??
Extremism.....
Yes, at the time of 911, sorry to say loose luke, but the government included such zealots for Israel, just like Mukasey.....and it's just an 'extreme' coincidence i'm sure, that he presided over so many 911 cases in lower Manhattan.
My family...
Comes from Russia and Austria, and came to America in the early 20th Century. I went to Hebrew School. I had a Bar Mitzvah. I have gone to synogogue. My siblings went to Hebrew College. My aunt was a Hebrew school teacher and principal for years.
Does that make me a criminal or a Zionist?
The other information from Wiki is interesting.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? The facts speak for themselves.
Hi Jon.......
Can we stop playing this game?
I can play it pretty well, too......My grandparents came from Armenia (escaping the Genocide). This is true.
There weren't any Nazis there (as far as i know) but the Turks played the Nazi-like role pretty well.
I think if i remember correctly, they kind of inspired Hitler. And maybe you've heard of his famous query....."Who remembers the Armenians"?
(Can we get back to 911 truth now, & away from Nazis/Jews/Genocide/Holocaust etc....)
To answer your question though.....No, you're not a criminal (as far as i know!).
The 'criminals' are whomever we come to find had a hand in facilitating the dirty deed of 911.....be they Norwegians, Armenians, Eskimos, or (god forbid) Israelis! Jeezus Christ(!), I really do wish there weren't Israelis involved, Jon....(all this time we're wasting here).
I really do wish that Urban Moving Systems had been a Norwegian Company, and that those Mossad agents were just Dancing Norwegians....and that all of the many fanatical people (actual dual-citizens or not....who cares) placed throughout the Bush admin., were fanatical Norwegians instead.
Sorry to say, but SOME Israelis played a PART (just a part) in the 911 puzzle. Most were Americans, no doubt. Other foreign countries/agents are in the mix as well, i'm sure. But, my big problem here is that the ONLY players we are not ALLOWED to mention.....are Israelis. Suddenly, if i say that, it means i hate "Jews".
So, this is the last time i will be playing this game with you. I'm just stating my opinion, and hope that everyone sees that you're just leading us in circles. A lot of us here are just TRYING (& will continue) to follow the leads that simply take us to the truth.
~ Best, Martha
the ONLY players we are not ALLOWED to mention
"But, my big problem here is that the ONLY players we are not ALLOWED to mention.....are Israelis. Suddenly, if i say that, it means i hate "Jews"."
Just to be clear- that's not what I'M saying- and I haven't seen Jon say that, either.
The US military-intelligence-industrial-financial-corporate- complex and it's primary owners- and Israel- were the primary beneficiaries of the 9/11 attacks. Next is the allies in the 'war on terror' which received all kinds of funding and US support even if they have dictatorships- like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. There's evidence that points to involvement by US, Israeli, Pakstani and Saudi persons and orgs. All this needs to be investigated. The primary architects of the cover up are WASPs and Jews.
EDIT- and the minority ethnicity/race/religion representation among the 'persons of interest', as long we're on this subject that Robin Hordon's comment inspired: Condoleezza Rice: Black, nominal Christian? Shyam Sunder: Indian ancestry- religion; Christian, Hindu, N/A?
Does the ethnicity/religion/race of these people make a difference? Let the evidence be presented. I say the important thing is whether they committed crimes or not, whether they're credible or not.
It's fine to point out evidence, including a person's past behavior and potential conflicts of interest.
It's not OK to make stuff up, and to circulate bogus information, which is being used to discredit the 9/11 Truth Movement. As I said before- who would want to do that?
It's a fact some people have racist attitudes toward Jews, and this prejudices their views and their interpretation of facts- this is not helpful to the cause of truth and justice.
It's a fact that the 9/11 Truth Movement has been portrayed as anti-semitic- and discredited for being 'anti-semitic'- and these efforts have been successful in part cuz of prejudiced people circulating 'misinfo' like 4000 Jews didn't show up for work at the WTC- and every prominent Jew is automatically a dual citizen, not credible and suspect. All lobbies that have lots of money wield tremendous influence over Congress and the Presidents- not just AIPAC. And while Israel's interests have obviously been affecting the decisions of our public servants re the Middle Eastd, the interests of the US military-industrial complex and the facts of Peak Oil are also affecting policy makers decisions.
http://911reports.com
http://www.historycommons.org
The primary architects of the cover up are WASPs and Jews
darkbeforedawn
ok maybe that is true..Let's look at media ownership and control
..Who is controlling the media? Who is preventing 911 Truth from reaching the public?
Does the government have such a tight control of the media or are there other factors at work?
It's not about 'racism"...its about education
darkbeforedawn
Sadly, it has been estimated that over 90% of American Jews support Israel and its policies unconditionally.....that would leave me in the other 10%....as a person who could, technically immigrate to Israel.
When you start talking about 911 Truth, besides Bush, Israel is the next most implicated entity...hence automatically in the minds of any Jews you happen to be addressing you are de facto an "antisemite" or a self-hating Jew...depending on who you are talking to.
The reason 911 Truth Movement is called racist etc etc is not because they are so.Just by questioning the "official story" you open a horrible can of "jewhating" worms in the minds of your hearers. Anyone that casts any aspersions on Israel is a "hater" in the minds of most Jews and the majority of Americans as well.
It is because Americans, both Jews and Zionists have yet to examine their unwavering support for Israel....
That Traitor is OUT
of power.Who cares what he say's on the sideline, trying to cover his useless ass?
Please stop discussing "race," "religion" and "ethnicity"
All a discussion of "race," "religion" and "ethnicity" does is divide the one human
race into false, arbitrary and delusionary catagories.
It is a destructive, endless, useless waste of energy - which is why the "world" is so in
love with these "distinctions."
A discussion of how to get the physics departments of the world to test the dust and the steel
would be alot more productive.
Couldn't agree more
I almost wish such discussion was banned on here. I sometimes feel the need to argue that 'race' (at least) is useless (arbitrary, delusional etc.), but it only causes more confusion.
I'll refrain in future.