NTSB data: Flight deck door remained closed on AA77: hijacking "impossible"

Link: http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=18405


......."On the morning of September 11, 2001, American Airlines Flight 77 departed Dulles International Airport bound for Los Angeles at 8:20 am Eastern Time. According to reports and data, a hijacking took place between 08:50:54 and 08:54:11[1] in which the hijackers allegedly crashed the aircraft into the Pentagon at 09:37:45. Reported by CNN, according to Ted Olson, wife Barbara Olson had called him from the reported flight stating, "...all passengers and flight personnel, including the pilots, were herded to the back of the plane by armed hijackers..."[2]. However, according to Flight Data provided by the NTSB, the Flight Deck Door was never opened in flight. How were the hijackers able to gain access to the cockpit, remove the pilots, and navigate the aircraft to the Pentagon if the Flight Deck Door remained closed?".........

There's a bit of a "wow" factor here: this is material provided by the NTSB, the government agency charged with investigating all airplane incidents and accidents in the US. We all know that Ted Olson lied about the cell phone calls from AA77, but this flight data recorder material (provided by a government agency) throws another wrench in the official version of AA77's fate.


Maybe the "hijackers" were remotely piloting the planes - you know, from the cave, where they mixed the nanothermite and planned how to dupe our air defenses...

I love how raw data always tells more of a story than anyone could ever dream up...

The love that you withhold is the pain that you carry

Various NTSB 9/11 FDR Facts

9/11 Aircraft 'Black Box' Serial Numbers Mysteriously Absent


NTSB Describes Importance Of Unpublished 9/11 FDR Part Numbers And Serial Numbers


NTSB Affirms Dubious Explanation For Pentagon "Black Box" Data File Time Stamp Discrepancy


They've found

the nanothermite cave:


Enough evidence yet?

In the real world there would be enough evidence to convict the real perpetrators.
In the post Orwellian alternate reality world on the other hand............

Charles F. Burlingame..Captain of AA77...

At some time before 9/11, I have read that Charles [Chip or Chic] Burlingame was assigned to the Pentagon during his National Guard duties in which he participated in the "Red Team-Blue Team" analysis of the capacites and weaknesses of the Pentagon's missile and air defense systems should an airliner be hijacked and used as an airbourne "bomb" to fly into the Pentagon.

Burlingame most likely KNEW all the ins and outs of the Penatgon defense systems.

THE most important pilot in a swap scenario [like that outlined in Operation Northwoods] is the pilot of the aircraft that is SWAPPED OUT...because that pilot has to go somewhere and do something that requires deep secrecy.

The "swapped IN" airvehicle could be almost any military airvehicle that had "fly-by-remote-control" capabilities...which have been inplace for several decades now. [See Aidan Monaghan's body of work]

More to come on the AA77 saga...and...

NOTHING should have happened at the Pentagon...at 09:30...09:32...09:38...09:45...or AT ANY OTHER TIME!

9/11 TRUTH for World PEACE

Robin Hordon
Kingston, WA

Clarification: The Black Box Was Recovered for Flight 77 ?

Would help if that was mentioned in entry.
Thanks, good work.

The tangled saga of AA77's black box(es)

There were evidently two black boxes recovered from AA77. Presumably one had the cockpit recorder and the other was the flight data recorder (FDR). There's been a lot of talk about these boxes.

One token individual, Allyn Kilsheimer, a structural engineer who arrived at the Pentagon shortly after it was hit claimed that himself found AA77's black box. Popular Mechanics quoted him in their magazine article as a star witness along with his claim that "I found the black box."

But Newsweek had reported that the TWO black boxes had been found--by firefighters three days after 9/11. So when PM expanded the original hit piece into their book Debunking 9/11 Myths, they simply modified that part of his quote (with no explanation) to say, "I stood on a pile of debris that we later found contained the black box . . ."

Prof. Griffin noted this in Debunking 9/11 Debunking: "At what school of journalistic ethics did the PM authors learn that, if part of a statement you have quoted from one of your star witnesses turns out to be false . . . you may simply change that part of the statement . . . ?"

But Kilsheimer wasn't done. I noticed in that History Channel piece in August 2007, that Hearst trotted out this same "witness" who then claimed, "I tripped over something; it was the black box." So, first he "found" it, then he stood on a pile of debris later found to contain it, and now the story is he "tripped over" it. This guy seem to have some profound psychological relationship with the black box.

But then there's the other story that one of the boxes was actually found near the exit hole, some 90 or so feet away. Obviously both stories can't be true (though PM has apparently endorsed both, go figure.) But according to the official story, two black boxes from AA77 were recovered at the Pentagon.

(I'm not a researcher like many here--please correct any misstatements in the above.)

A good video showing the data would help get the magnitude...

of this, across to everyone.

On September 14, the DoD Flight 77 Black Boxesannounced that they had found the voice recorder pilot cockpit black box 77 september 11black boxes for Flight 77, and that they have been tuened over to the voice recorder pilot cockpit black box 77 september 11NTSB. However, the data of the flight data recorders, or the voice from the voice recorder from Flight 77 have never been released:

September 14, 2001 -- Searchers found the flight data and cockpit voice recorders about 4 a.m. today in the wreckage of the hijacked plane that slammed into the Pentagon on September 11, defense department officials said. The two "black boxes" will help investigators put together the puzzle of what happened during the doomed flight, said DoD spokesman Army Lt. Col. George H. Rhynedance. "The voice recorder will tell what was going on in the cockpit," he said. The data box, he said, will tell what was happening with the aircraft as it headed toward the Pentagon, such as its rate of turn. Information from the two boxes will help determine what actually happened during the flight, he said. The recorders were turned over the FBI. The recorders are now at the National Transportation Safety Board laboratory in Washington, where technicians are working to recover data on the recorders. september 11 Wiki DoD

September 14, 2001 -- Dick Bridges, deputy manager for Arlington County, Va., said the voice recorder was damaged on the outside and the flight data recorder was charred. But he said the FBI still was confident the data can be recovered from both devices." "Bridges said the recorders were found "right where the plane came into the building." september 11 WikiAlbuquerque Tribune

September 14, 2001 -- FBI Director Robert Mueller said Friday investigators have recovered some information from the flight data recorder from American Airlines Flight 77, the hijacked jet that slammed into the Pentagon. september 11 Wiki CNN

A damaged voice recorder and the charred flight data recorder from the hijacked have been sent to the FBI. september 11 Wiki Wired News

Feb. 25, 2002 --FBI Director Robert Mueller said Flight 77's data recorder provided altitude, speed, headings and other information, but the voice recorder contained nothing useful. september 11 Wiki flight data and cockpit voice recordersCBS

FBI Director Robert Mueller said that the voice data recorder contained nothing useful, it would imply that there are no words of the hijackers on the tape, which would once again reinforce our feeling that there is no evidence of hijackers. We'd like to have a independent and reputable expert look at the originals - perhaps what they do or do not contain is useful. Because, as we shall see below, we are deeply suspicious of the FBI's withholding or burying all evidence related to Flight 77.

Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld said the data on the cockpit voice data recorder was unrecoverable.

If the cockpit voice data recorder was unrecoverable, it would be the first time in aviation history a solid-state data recorder (the type used on Flight 77) was unrecoverable after a crash. From a Scientific American feature article lauding the "Better Black Box" in their september 11 Wiki September 2000 issue:

Nearly 100,000 flight recorders have been installed in commercial aircraft over the past four decades. The prices of the latest models generally range from $10,000 to $20,000. Their survival rate has greatly improved in recent years as the FAA has raised the certification requirements. Although older recorders using magnetic tape were susceptible to fire damage, no solid-state device has been destroyed in an accident to date.

Wikipedia says:
Officials at both American Airlines and United Airlines said the black boxes aboard their destroyed aircraft were modern solid-state versions, which are more resistant to damage than the older magnetic tape recorders.[82] The cockpit voice recorder was quickly transported to the NTSB lab in Washington, D.C., and its data was downloaded. Soon afterward, the FBI took charge of the box and its data.[83] CBS News reported that "Preliminary information shows there is nothing that appears to be useful on the cockpit voice tape. The tape appears to be blank or erased."[84] In its report on the CVR, the NTSB identified the unit as an L-3 Communications, Fairchild Aviation Recorders model A-100A cockpit voice recorder; a device which records on magnetic tape. The NTSB reported that "The majority of the recording tape was fused into a solid block of charred plastic." No usable segments of tape were found inside the recorder.[85]

Basis for this conclusion?

I went to the Pilots for 9/11 Truth site via the link, and there I saw the instructions to right click and 'save target' to see the documentation. But it's still not clear to me how we know that NTSB analysis says the cockpit door was not opened on that flight. After downloading, I see a spreadsheet with a bunch of abbreviations scattered about. Can anyone tell me which row or column I should be looking at to see this damning information?


Can anyone confirm the 'independent researcher and computer programmer from Australia"..?

The programmer . . .

. . . is Warren Stutt. The link downloads from his web page www.warrenstutt.com. All it has are links to pages describing his FDR decoder work on the various flights.


My questions too, rm. Rob Balsamo should come on personally to explain it. I will relay what he says on the P4T forum. He gives this download for simplicity:
This is a csvfile of the Flight Deck Door and GMT time parameters side-by-side. Rob comments: "For those who don't want to scroll through 1.5 hours of flight, just click Edit/Find on your spreadsheet and type in OPEN, click Find. It's not there. The door was closed for the entire flight according to the data." "Status of the cockpit door was updated every 4 seconds throughout the flight and not once during that time does the data indicate the door was open."

P4T claimed to have decoded the raw file themselves more than 2 years ago, but it showed all zeroes and apparently they didn't realize the significance. "Warren (Stutt) proved in terms of the Data Frame Layout that (0=Closed, 1=Open )." If this can be verified, it's a bombshell. I don't yet know what to make of it. Here's some more back-and-forth from the forum:

Is it not the case that FAA

Is it not the case that FAA regulations state that the cockpit access door *MUST* be closed as soon as the Captain and First officer are in their seats at the time the engines are started up prior to the final pre-flight checks? The data suggests that the door's status was unchanged from the start of the FDR recording and the end of the data stream. If the door was either opened or closed during the transmission, then the status bit would change from a 'zero' to a 'one', or a 'one to a 'zero', respectively. This did not happen throughout the entire flight, unless there was a malfunction on the sensor.


This is a serious development. The status of the door was unchanged, meaning Hanjour did not come into the cockpit to take over control of the plane. If Fl.77 indeed hit the Pentagon it was hijacked remotely. The Olson story is a fraud. The 9/11 story is a fraud.

Rob Balsamo should come on

Rob Balsamo should come on personally to explain it.

I believe he's banned?

So where has this been hiding ?

The more time goes by the more evidence mounts, when is enough enough ?

when people hear it!

We've had enough evidence to convict them in any court for years and more and more keeps coming out....but not to the public. Education is the key....we need to follow the lead of Richard Gage and others like him who going out and talking to the public, even if it is just people we know socially.
Writing on blogs here and talking to each other will get us no where. The media will not publish or broadcast this information so we need to tell and show the public. It is the only way right now. And we need to keep the pressure on the media to confront these facts and do a real investigation

Just Last Weekend....

I gave away 40 "Core of Corruption/In Their Own Words" DVD combos at Russ Baker's book signing on Friday night. Our group gave away another 300+ DVDs at the JFK Lancer Convention on Saturday. Then on Sunday I gave away another 150 DVDs at the "End the Fed" protest.

500 in a weekend. Anyone can do it.

If Not Me? Who? If Not Now? When?


for your wonderful work. This is great!

In Ann Arbor Mi several of us are talking of buying a dvd replicator... can you recommend a model....which is the best for the price and the easiest to use?
Also have you noticed a difference in the blanks you buy? Which are best?

Go to ebay

search "5-disc DVD duplicator", there are many at $350 and FREE shipping. I bought my current one for $290 Free shipping, but I cannot find any that cheap now. I assume one is as good as another.


This is my second. Our group has made and distributed somewhere around 39,000 (Yes, THIRTY-NINE THOUSAND)

get DVD -R (minus) R MINUS R are more universal. We are buying 100 spindles on sale sometimes as low as $10-20 Fryes Electronics or Office Depot.

Buy paper sleeves via ebay $25 and up per 1000

Thank you Joe for all your hard work

39,000 is an impressive number!

OK - This does not prove much as we still know too little?

Some questions for the assertion "this proves 77 did not hit the Pentagon";

1. If the door was busted open and the lock mechanism stayed locked does this mean the door closed bit remained in the data stream to the DFDR?
2. Did the door have a proximity switch in the jam for its open closed condition and a seperate output for the locked signal?
3. Is it not already fair to say that none of the data provided correlates with 77's flight path and the data recieved by pilots is most likely created by the perps to confuse us. In that light what does this prove beside that we still don't know what hit the Pentagon?

Is more questions the answer to the riddle or are they just causing more confussion?

This really proves nothing it just shows we need the real data and the video's before we make any assertions otherwise we are simply playing into there hands.

Regards John

9/11 24/7 UNTIL JUSTICE!!

Another observation...

It seems that every time some one in the media wants to make us look like "conspiracy theorists" they want to talk about;

1. No Planes
2. The Pentagon

Is there a lesson to learn from that?

Ask yourself a question...do you want to win or be happy as a conspiracy theorists?

Regards John

9/11 24/7 UNTIL JUSTICE!!

Show "Actually..." by Jon Gold


thanks for all you do. All that has been uncovered adds up. I speak for myself when i say all i needed to see was the collapse of all three buildings to know that something was very wrong with the official story.
The deeper i dug the more i was convinced it wasn't just wrong ........It's total bullshit.
I've built high rise buildings, although nothing as high as the towers.
Richard Gage is dead on accurate in his assessment and although most people don't have a clue it's very apparent when shown to trade workers, or engineers that haven't seen his presentation.
Hopefully Americans will wake up soon to all the corruption, and demand the truth with accountability.


jon has done a magnificent job here!
I am wondering if he thinks that the Neil Harrit peer reviewed paper is also discrediting to the Truth Movement.....
or is that a different topic than "CD"....which sounds to the uninitiated as if you are talking about some new music that is disturbing...
I NEVER use that phrase and instead talk about the preplanned destruction of the THREE steel framed buildings on 911....


It seems that every time someone in the media wants to make us look like "conspiracy theorists" they want to talk about 9-11, so god forbit we talk about anything, and as Jon says, especially Controlled Demolition.


With you in the struggle,
WeAreChangeLA - http://www.wacla.org
I work for the 9-11 First Responders, the 9-11 victims, and all those who are being slaughtered and tortured because of 9-11.

Is what I said...


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? The facts speak for themselves.

I'm not sure why

you were voted down, Jon. The CBC program was horrible, as confusing as I thought it would be.

I spoke the truth.

Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? The facts speak for themselves.

However Richard Gage has been

However Richard Gage has been on a local FOX affiliate and the Building What ad was shown on Geraldo and Napolitano on National FOX. These are direct results of the AE9/11Truth work as well as coordinated efforts with NYCCAN. It's great coverage that is based essentially on the demolition of Building #7.

I think the bashing comes from the less-knowledgable through many mediums. It also, in my opinion, has very little pattern other than sticking to not asking questions at all.


This “unspeakable,” this hypnotic “collective denial of the obvious,” is sustained by a mass-media whose repeated message is that the truth about such significant events is beyond our grasp, that we will have to drink the waters of uncertainty forever. As for those who don’t, they are relegated to the status of conspiracy nuts.
We know the obvious.......... The truth is coming!

won't be showing up anytime soon

"we need the real data and the video's before we make any assertions"

Don't hold your breath.

I wonder about the other flights.....

As some astute observer pointed out on the Pilots for 9/11 Truth forum, it would be most interesting to examine the other Flight Data Recorder .csv data to determine if the cockpit doors remained closed on the other commandeered flights, namely UA193, UA175 and AA11. That would give us an even more solid indication of what (if anything!) happened in those cockpits re. the actual physical presence (or otherwise) of hijackers.

Screw the media

Who cares if the mainstream media mock us as conspiracy theorists because we talk about the evidence of controlled demolition? They are still trying to convince us that Oswald killed Kennedy and that there was no conspiracy involved in the assassination. I consider it a badge of honor to be mocked by the pathetic controlled news media. Do we care more about uncovering the truth, or about how the discredited lame stream news media attacks us?

Just to clarify..

The Flight Data Recorder does indeed record whether the flight deck door opens or closes..?

Where's the data and the proof on that, for us plane idiots, which most people are.

Is that included in the article - if so, please ignore this comment..
On the 11th day, of every month.

Page 34...

Of this document lists the "mandatory parameters" for the FDAU (Flight Data Acquisition Unit) which "receives various discrete, analog and digital parameters from a number of sensors and avionic systems and then routes them to a flight data recorder (FDR) and, if installed, to a Quick Access Recorder (QAR)." I don't see anything about the cockpit door. I could be wrong. This document from the NTSB regarding Flight 77 says "the Digital Flight Data Acquisition Unit (DFDAU) provides a means of gathering, conditioning, and converting flight data parameters to digital data. In this aircraft, the DFDAU function is performed by the SSFDR (Solid State Flight Data Recorder)." On page 6, it lists the "Parameters Plotted," and I don't see anything about a Flight Deck Door. On page 10, it starts listing "Parameters Not Working Or Unconfirmed," and then on page 13, it does list "FLT DECK DOOR." However, I don't know if what is being presented here is accurate anyway. As of right now, this is a "claim." Good question.

Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? The facts speak for themselves.

Flight Deck Door switch

Seems that some people don't understand what this implies. So I put in my 2 cents.

A Flight Data Recorder (Black Box) records certain parameters during a flight. So when a planes crashes the investigators can figure out with the recorded data on the Flight Data Recorder and that of the Voice Recorder what happened before the crash.

One of the things the Flight Data Recorder records is if the Flight Deck Door is closed or open during the flight. This way the investigators for example know if the pilot might have left the cockpit before the crash. Or someone entered the cockpit before it crashed. It gives the investigators a better impression of the sequence of events that lead to the crash of the plane.

In the cockpit there is an indicator if the door is locked or not. I couldn't find a manual of the 757, but I found a manual of a Boeing 747 which mentions the Flight Deck Door switch (read page 237!!). This Flight Deck Door switch is also present on a 757.

The csv file tells us the door hasn't been open(ed) during the flight. Which raises the question how the alleged terrorist made their way into the cockpit.

They probably will convince use that the terrorist used the entrance of the plane. Jumped on the wing of the plane. Climbed on top of the plane towards the cockpit. Forced the window open and got in.
That's the way it always goes when the goverment cover ups their conspiracies. They come up with an incredible theory.
Like the magic bullet theory in the JFK assasination investigation.

Hopefully this explains one and other.

What I want to know is

'The csv file tells us the door hasn't been open(ed) during the flight.'

What I want to know is, where in the csv file is this information located? As I said in my comment above, all I see are a bunch of abbreviations scattered across a spreacsheet. Where does this purported information appear in this document?

I am aware that Hani Hanjour

wasn't that great of a pilot, and so, in order to cling to the official story, since to consider anything else must be insane, I am forced to conclude that he was MAGICIAN. He performed so many magical feats of flight and navigation, and that final spiral down, to hug the Pentagon grass lawn, and then drive that plane right into the Pentagon without having the tail section and the rear verticle stablizer wing make so much as a mark on the Pentagon wall (before the collapse of the outer wall) - why are we to assume that he could not have figured out how to enter the cockpit and subdue Chic Burlingame without being detected..?! Huh? Answer me THAT!

The incredible Hani Hanjour, perhaps one of the greatest magicians of all time. Think about it!
On the 11th day, of every month.

hee hee

our friend Jean Brigard could do a wonderful little gig on that....it could rival the "mageek pass ports"! LOVE IT....

Any thoughts about Barbara and Ted Olson?

This aspect has always been of interest to me. The DC power couple, heavy Republicans, how do they fit into the picture? We know Ted Olson has lied, so he has some level of involvement. What about Barbara? Any theories out there worth discussing? I am not ashamed to be a Conspiracy Theorist.

Wonder if Ted Olson had used the occassion toget rid of his wife

I wonder if Ted Olson had used the occassion to get rid of his wife ? Dis she suffer the same sort as John O'Neill ?

I've wondered that

I've wondered that particularly since she wasn't scheduled to be on that flight but changed her plans because of a decision to celebrate his birthday (or maybe it was her's). Nothing like climbing onto a doomed plane. And then he was on a TV talk show the night of her memorial. He was working it.

Barbara Olsen did try to

Barbara Olsen did try to make a phone call from the doomed flight but that call lasted 0.0 seconds as revealed at the Mousaoui trial.Without the Ted Olsen bullshit claiming Barbara said the hijackers took control of the cockpit and marched the pilots to the back of the plane then the story is proven to be a myth.

Going from this point,that we really don,t know the true story, then it is fully plausible that nobody entered the cockpit at all.I have always wondered whether Barbara Olsen,s vitriolic books about Hitlery Clinton had some bearing on her being on that flight.I would not mess with proven sociopaths like the Clintons.

The Final Days: The Last, Desperate Abuses of Power by the Clinton White House(paperback) by Barbara Olsen who died aboard flight 77 on 9/11/01.Barbara sold the myth of hijackers aboard that flight,the lie which launched the whole official narrative of what happened aboard that flight, based on a phone call that lasted 0.0 seconds. Not even Hollywood could dream up a story like that.

some of my thoughts are

Did Ted know that the plane was doomed and his part of the cover story was planned and orchestrated as part of the "war on terror".

Was Ted used after the fact to help create the myth either via cooperation or manipulation ?

Do we know for certain that Barbara was on the plane? Are we certain she is dead?

My best guess is that something went wrong in the plan (similar to WTC 7) and that the plane was not supposed to wind up in PA. Most likely it was shot down either on purpose to cover the mistake or by mistake as part of national defense. After the passenger list was confirmed Ted was used as part of the " hero cover story" .

It sounds like you are confusing

It sounds like you are confusing flight 77--which is supposed to have struck the Pentagon, and on which Barbara Olsen reportedly was one of the passengers--with flight 93--which reportedly crashed in PA.


Thanks, your right I did get confused.


..... as for the Pentagon the only question i would like to have answered is in regards to Mr. Mineta" testimony.
They were tracking flight 77 from at least as far as fifty miles away.
Do the orders still stand?............... What f**king orders would that be?
Are you kidding me! How much more do we need to show that the 911 commission was a joke?

They weren't...

Orders referring to Flight 93 like some claim because Flight 93 never came with in 50, 30, or 10 miles of Washington D.C. They certainly don't seem to be shoot down orders because those weren't issued until 10:18am. I'm not certain they were "stand down" orders because I don't think saying "no" to the young man's question would have enabled an intercept from 10 miles out. Meaning, if the young man asked Cheney "do the stand down orders still stand," and Dick Cheney responded, "no, authorize intercepts," I don't think they would have had enough time to make a difference at 10 miles out. I could be wrong. As you said, "what f**cking orders" were they, why did the young man question those orders to begin with (would he question "shoot down" orders at a time when America was "under attack"), what was the young man's name, and why wasn't he brought forward to testify?

Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? The facts speak for themselves.

And why was Mineta's testimony

omitted from the final report? He was the Sec. of Transportation for god's sake, who was in the PEOC with Cheney during this critical time. Something is rotten. Clearly these orders weren't re: UA93 which never got that close and clearly they weren't shoot-down.

I want to see this NTSB data verified. It could be another smoking gun. The cockpit door switch should be part of the FDR data stream.


If we wait long enough, everyone involved will have died from old age.

Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? The facts speak for themselves.


Mineta was asked by Hamilton. The flight you were referring to ?......And Mineta replied 'The flight that came into the Pentagon" So those that claim it was 93 are up in the night.
I don't like to speculate. I agree on you with your comment on intercept.
In my opinion it was either a go .......Or abort. I guess Hamilton should have asked Dick what were the orders?
With this being said the 9/11 commission was not only a joke.......It was corrupt.

I know...

And Hamilton also seemed to coerce Mineta into agreeing it was a "shoot down order," but at the time the conversation was taking place between the young man and Cheney, Mineta didn't know what the orders he was referring to were.

MR. HAMILTON: Let me see if I understand. The plane that was headed toward the Pentagon and was some miles away, there was an order to shoot that plane down.

MR. MINETA: Well, I don't know that specifically, but I do know that the airplanes were scrambled from Langley or from Norfolk, the Norfolk area. But I did not know about the orders specifically other than listening to that other conversation.

MR. HAMILTON: But there very clearly was an order to shoot commercial aircraft down.

MR. MINETA: Subsequently I found that out.

Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? The facts speak for themselves.

9/11 Black Box Anomalies

Is there anything more bizarre and suspect then finding pieces of the alleged hijackers passports in the streets of New York but not being able to find any of the four indestructible airplane black boxes at WTC (even though two NYC fireman claim to have found at least two of the boxes)? I guess black boxes are not nano-thermite resistant! Regarding some of the major issues and questions relating to AA 77 black boxes, the two blogs above, “The Tangled Saga of AA77 Black Boxes,” and “Good Video Showing the Data Would Help Get the Magnitude,” provide a good summary of the current open questions. Even assuming that both AA 77 boxes were authentic, the extremely poor government transparency around the Voice Recorder information is inexcusable and should be crime. Was the Voice Recorder information unrecoverable like Dumsfeld claims or does it not contain “useful information” as Mueller claims, and what the hell does Mueller mean by “useful information?” Tax payers had to pay for the multi-billion dollar clean-ups at the WTC and Pentagon sites, and we should have the right to know exactly what is on the AA 77 Voice Recorder.

Lastly, given that UA 93 black boxes were recovered, does anyone know if the Flight Data Box confirms that the cockpit door on that flight was opened, and if so, does the timing of the opening of the cockpit door confirm with the rest of the official story for that flight?

Dan Rather Says Flight Recorder RECOVERED From Ground Zero

Well here we go again...popular culture v's science and evidence

Does any here wish to tell me why I was voted down?

I am both qualified and worthy of an opinion on this matter? I am licensed on the 767-200 and are familiar with the systems in question, having worked on the for 20 years in avionics. I am also very aware of what is working as evidence and what is not, as I have developed these skills through street activism and event organisation over the last four years.

The simple facts are that all the data received by pilots and others has been shown to be problematic or outright fraudulent. This is not their fault, but it does not mean that it should be ignored?

If people here wish to keep preoccupying themselves with little proofs that prove nothing, that's fine for them. I will however continue to spend my time and money pushing the best evidence forward to get a real inquiry going, if that is not popular here then so be it.

The greatest recent advancements for our cause have been made by AE911Truth in America and and abroad with the evidence of Nano-Thermite providing the killer blow. It has not been Balsamo and his friends at CIT doing any damage to the perps. While there research is interesting, it as far as I can see has made no ground for our cause rather it has continued to divide us!

Unfortunately blogger appears to have become something that is not representing this movement in it's best light.. I hope this will change soon and claims that are presented here as evidence or fact will be vetted by their worth and the fact they can be held to account by the scientific method.

Regards John

PS - If any did not understand my point about the door lock on the cockpit door...it is possible for the door to remained (indicated) locked while being open, so this does not provide hard evidence of anything rather just one more question....that is unless it can be demonstrated that a proximity switch was in the door jam on that aircraft which provides this data or that it is impossible to force the door without the lock opening then this information is basically worthless just like the hologram theories that pilots indirectly support..

9/11 24/7 UNTIL JUSTICE!!

Don't take the voting too

Don't take the voting too seriously John.

Bring Your Debate to Pilots for 9/11 Truth

Have you posted your theory on the Pilots for 9/11 Truth website, and if so, what do other licensed pilots think of it? Are there any pilots who agree with you and how likely are your iffy assumptions verse the door never really being opened? Balsamo’s finding may not indicate with 100% certainty that the door was never opened, but I like the probability of his theory and findings verse your much more questionable assumptions. Balsamo’s finding may not be the smoking gun, but it’s one of a thousand plus nails that have already been put into the official story coffin. It seems to me that you should be debating your questionable theory with other licensed pilots at Pilots for 9/11 Truth, that's the real vote that should count, the vote and opinion of your peers.

How can you fly with the eagles if you roost with the turkeys?

P4T Forum is not the place I want to go...sorry let them put out a paper as I suggested...for peer review?

Regards John

9/11 24/7 UNTIL JUSTICE!!

hologram theories?

John, please provide a link to where P4T supports hologram theories. I know Rob Balsamo and he absolutely refuses to speculate. He presents evidence, that is all. He has no theories and will not theorize if asked to do so.

Barbara Olson phone call(s) never happened according to FBI

Everyone: Please see video Part I from link below. David Ray Griffin discusses FBI's evidence that Barbara Olson phone call(s) never happened.
This means the "box cutter" claim is a fabrication as the reputed phone call from Barbara Olson is the ONLY source of the "box cutters" claim.
This evidence of "no phone call" was introduced by the FBI at the Massasoui Trial.



A knife was officially found

A knife was officially found at the Crash site of United Flight 93 in Pennsylvania ,Shanksville. See the video below:


But of course it's a false and fabricated evidence because Flight 93 did not crash in the Shanksville crater.





Yeah your right...I'm just so sick of the Pentagon!

I just wish the topic would disappear until we have a peer reviewed paper or some "hard" evidence that will clear something up rather than just creating more doubt.

I don't know why this story is getting attention here as it's not like there is not plenty of news happening....

I love blogger, but I hate fighting over B/S that means little in the scheme of things...leave that in the forums?

Best and thanks for calling me on my emotional response, I appreciate criticism.

Regards John

9/11 24/7 UNTIL JUSTICE!!

if any part of the official story is a lie, then its all suspect

If anybody is looking for hard evidence, then the .csv file provided by the NTSB, the relevant government agency charged with investigating airplane accidents, should fit the bill. I understand very well (as I am sure we all do around here!) that government agencies are often dishonest and/or scientifically compromised as regards investigating incidents with politically controversial content; it goes with the territory.

However, here we have a set of hard data that was recorded *automatically* by a plane's data recorder, as opposed to being filtered through, or interfered by, human agents. The datastream recorded by the flight data recorder on AA77 provided by the NTSB was generated by the 757's systems and commenced as soon as the captain and first officer were in their seats with both the cabin and flight deck doors secured, and the pre-flight checks were being undertaken.To debunk the validity of this data, one would have to prove that either NTSB officials tampered with the FDR hardware or the data set, or this specific data represents a different condition than what it is supposed to indicate. In this former case, what would be gained by deliberately rigging a device, or "cooking" a set of data so that it provided "truthers" with yet more material to sow doubt and skepticism in the minds of the public a large? (Illogical!).

The vital question here is whether the 757's flight deck door was ever open, or opened, during the flight, especially during the period of time when the plane was allegedly taken over by Hani Hanjour and others. If any of the data indicated a "door open", condition, then we revert back to "square one" so to speak: Either the alleged hijackers busted it open *or* the flight-deck crew could have opened it, and thus the data-set is irrelevant.

This, however, is a is different ballgame: During the entire 90 minutes of the flight, according to the data, this door remained *CLOSED* throughout. In this datastream, the status of the cockpit door, either "OPEN" or "CLOSED", is represented by either a "ONE" or a "ZERO" respectively. The status of this door was checked by the FDR's software every *four seconds*, and on each pass throughout the entire 90 minutes, a ZERO was polled, with some 1300 door status-checks over the entire time period.

It is hard to emphasize how potentially important this material is: If the data set is accurate and the sensor was working correctly, then (as pointed out by so many on this and other forums) NO HIJACKERS gained access to the cockpit during the flight.... it is as simple as that. On the other hand, if the data is inaccurate, this would imply five possibilities:

(a) the data was deliberately cooked by NTSB officials (see above...wild speculation and highly unlikely), or

(b) there was a faulty sensor. As far as that possibility is concerned, as pointed out by qualified people in P4T and other forums: ".... if the sensor failed, it would "ding" the FDR that a sensor has failed during self-diagnosis. If the FDR is inoperative, the airplane is not allowed to take off. The sensor was operative. People who make this claim, would also have to prove the sensor fails in the closed position", or

(c), hijackers really did gain access to the cockpit and the sensor most conveniently failed at *exactly* the same time.... which again is highly unlikely because the FDR did not report a failed sensor, or a change of status in the cockpit door's data stream during the relevant time period. Or,

(d).... starting to get into 6th grade "JREF" or "Screw Loose Change" territory: Hijackers gained access to the flight deck prior to the cockpit door being secured, and somehow concealed themselves while pre-flight checks were being undertaken, until the moment came for them to take over control of the plane, or

(e) .... which is where we get into the wacky: Hijackers entered the cabin by shape-shifting into bugs, crawling under the door and reconstituting themselves... or seeping into the cockpit via osmosis.... or cutting out a cabin window (presumably with boxcutters), exiting the plane and crawling up the fuselage in mid-flight, then breaking the windows of the cockpit and entering in that fashion, all without de-pressurizing the plane.... (!)

When trying to solve a problem of this nature, Occam's Razor is a most appropriate tool. An approximation of this principle, is that "the simplest explanation should be the first to examine, as it often represents the likeliest scenario". It appears that the most likely scenario is that "the cockpit door remained locked throughout the flight", for the reasons stated above. What does this imply? For the official version of Flight 77, it is damning beyond all bounds. I care not as to what part of the 9/11 operation this damning material is in reference to: if any part of the official story is a lie, or impossible, then its entirety must be deemed as suspect.

In our 8 year, time-consuming, energy-sapping and expensive quest to nail the perpetrators, get them into a court of law and subsequently behind bars, the 9/11 Truth community is best off appealing to the mainstream, rather than preaching to the choir, or getting into turf wars and endless bickering: such only empowers our enemy. What better way to convert the masses is there than by using the government's own data to trip themselves up, and highlight the the fact that *all aspects* of the official story are nothing more than pure and undiluted drivel?

Make a video, bloggulator

What you just wrote would be good narration for a video that shows clips of the data stream. You could also show the FOIA request received. Can you do this? Then post on google and youtube please.

This is SERIOUSLY important.

FDR data for the FLT DECK DOOR

The FDR parameter for the FLT DECK DOOR was not active and recorded on this model B757. Flight 77 was a B757-2 with "N" numbers, " of N644AA" indicating that it was built in late 1991, when this model was manufactured at Boeing

On this model the FDR did not record the state of this parameter in the FDR data, even though they left room for it and recorded this data later in the newer B757-3. There is no indication that this model had ever been upgraded to a B757-3

The last 42 hours on the FDR data also shows in fact no record of this function becoming active, meaning the door switch parameter had never been recorded as open on any of these flights even though this data covered 12 separate flights, again confirming that this FDR parameter was inoperative on this model of B757-2.

I am quoting a reply here

I am quoting a reply here from a poster in P4T which might shed some light on the point you just made:


The FLT DECK OPEN parameter was not added to the FDR frame (757-3 A2) until 1997. The plane was manufactured in 1991 using an earler frame structure which did not include the parameter, so a binary 0 for an unused data block.

This claim is wrong because actually all the FDR system has been updated before 08/18/2001...

According to http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagaz...nly/s01txt.html

Airplanes manufactured before October 11, 1991, without an FDAU or DFDAU as of July 16, 1996.
Airplanes manufactured before October 11, 1991, with an FDAU or DFDAU as of July 16, 1996.
Airplanes manufactured after October 11, 1991, after August 18, 2000, and after August 18, 2002.

The new rule requires that by August 18, 2001 the FDR record at least 18 parameter groups. For most airplanes, this is an increase from 11 parameter groups, as described in "Effects of 1989 FAA Flight Data Recorder Rule Change" on page 32.

The new rule requires that by four years from date of rule at least 22 parameter groups be recorded by the FDR. In this group are Boeing models 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, DC-10, and MD-80.

Flight 77 = N644AA 2460

Certificate Issue Date 05/08/1991



So N644AA has been updated before August 18, 2001

FDR and FLT DECK DOOR parameter

Did this update to the FDR add the FLT DECK DOOR parameter and connect it to the OPEN/CLOSE switch on the FLT DECK DOOR or not and how do you explain that in the prior 42 hours of flights the FLT DECK DOOR is never indicated as having been opened, even once?

That would imply that in 42 hours of flight on this aircraft that not one pilot ever took a leak, highly improbable IMHO!

Where is the AD for this update, that would tell exactly what was required to be done to update the FDR.

Here is another entry, which

Here is another entry, which I quote, posted by someone who is obviously familiar this very specific area of technology: Again, this (combined with the previous material I quoted) may clear a few things up a little regarding whether the door's status was a monitored parameter:


Here's a little tech for those interested. The Flight Deck Door was most
certainly assigned as a recorded parameter as per this chart:



A port that is not used looks like this in the documentation:


It is clear, without debate that Flight Deck Door was assigned and being
polled by the system.

These captures were taken from a Boeing 757 manual, document number:
D226A101-3, revision G.

As shown the flight data recorder receives a logic low (binary 0) when the
door is closed. With electronic circuits (specifically digital signals), you
must NEVER leave a pin open. It must be referenced to VSS (signal high),
or Ground (signal low) at all times. It CANNOT remain floating or the input
circuitry will receive noise, and/or an undetermined value.

For this reason, the following circuit is the standard for switched logic
circuits. There may be variations, however the signal input line will
ALWAYS sense Ground (logic 0), or VSS (logic 1)


So what does this mean? Well, according to the documentation, the door
is closed when a logic zero is received at Port D14, word 251, bit 1, subframe 3.

If this parameter was NEVER recorded the documentation would not assign
a port, and/or a word/bit position.

If the door was left open, the value would read logic 1 (VSS) as shown on the right side (Figure 2).

Parameters that are not recorded (IE: spares, or unused ports) are tied
to ground instead of VSS to reduce current draw and power consumption
in a circuit.


Unused pins, spare ports, etc. are tied to ground and are labelled as spare
in the third chart from the top of this post.

Assigned parameters are never 'floating' and will either see a logic 1, or
logic 0. In the case of the Flight Deck Door, it was reading ground which
means it was closed (logic 0).

FRD and the AD with the FLT DECK DOOR information?

This shows that D14 is assigned to the FLT Deck Door and this is port name EICAS L/R-A-1, but this is shown for a B757-3 and not a B757-2, see the title of the aircraft "type" in the manual for the data frame parameter assignments and the port and pin they are connected to.

Flight AA 77 was a B757-2 and not a B757-3.

Where is this same assignment for the Aircraft Data Frame for the B757-2 that shows the parameter assignment for the FLT DECK DOOR after the AD was complied to?

As I said before the AD would show exactly what was required for the FDR for the B757-2 and FLT DECK DOOR status switch to comply with this AD, and what effect this would have on the FLT DECK DOOR recorded information.

Where is this AD for the FDR for the B757-2?

Resolution to the question of the FLT DECK DOOR staus of AA77

After researching the D226A101-3 document, I think I have found the necessary information to sort this all out.

IC&RD Revision history D226A101-3 shows revs for the B757-1 and B757-2 through revision C, and for B757-3 through revision D1, B757-3A through revision F and for B757-3B and B757-4 through revision G.

The Revision Letters A-G are also described and these list the changes to the prior versions of the DFDAU flight data recorder, B-E112.

I have gone through all of the data saved on these DFDAU units and clearly the FLT DECK DOOR status is saved for the B757-3 and above but it is not even recorded for B757-1 or B757-2.

I have also gone through all of the revision letters that were required by the FAA and the Boeing and supplier reviews and can find nothing calling out any change to the recording of the FLT DECK DOOR status for the B757-2 type aircraft.

It is clear that AA77 that was a B757-2 and this type of aircraft did not record the status of the FLT DECK DOOR and all of the updates per FAA requirements did not change this parameter.

So the claim that the AA 77 FLT DECK DOOR was never opened appears to be bogus because this parameter is never even recorded on B757-2 type aircraft.


Such careful and intelligent research could only be done by someone that is obviously wearing a tinfoil hat and hates the United States...

I wish the idiots that air hit pieces on people like us that question the official story would take a moment to read this thread. You guys deserve some serious recognition for your tireless dedication to exposing the truth. I am thoroughly impressed and inspired by the tenacity of you amazing patriots...

The love that you withhold is the pain that you carry

A Lesson To Be Learnt?

So there you go just as I thought this evidence is probably worthless...:)

Lets get off our asses and get what we know now out to the public!

1. Free fall of 7
2. Nanothermite
3. Lies, lies and more lies of Bush and Co
5 Stand Down
6. The money

Time for evidence gathering is probably over minus some refining of the scientific issues around the dust etc.

On the Eleventh Day of Every Month or any day at all get out and talk with the people, wear a t shirt or hold up a sign. Write to people that can help us, organise events and simply get active!

Time is short so get to it today!

Lets fight for our world and for peace.

Kind regards John

9/11 24/7 UNTIL JUSTICE!!



Ok, I see this popping up a lot around the net so let me address it now.

Claim - P4T and Turbofan are not using the proper Data Frame Layout when showing the port location in his diagram. They are using 757-3, they should be using 757-2 which doesn't show a FLT DECK DOOR parameter. AA77 was a 757-2 airplane.

A- Those who make this claim are confusing the Data Frame Layout (DFL) number with Aircraft Type. 757-3b is the proper Data Frame Layout required for N644AA as listed here in the NTSB pdf for N644AA.

(bottom of page 2)

United 93 was also a 757-200 aircraft, but used 757-4 Data Frame Layout.

(also bottom of page 2)

DFL 757-3b (AA77) has the FLT DECK DOOR parameter which is why you see it listed under the parameters in the NTSB pdf and recorded in the data.

DFL 757-4 (UA93) does not list a FLT DECK DOOR parameter, which is why it is not listed in the NTSB pdf nor recorded.

AA B-757-2's data frame likely upgraded to 757-3 standard.

Those involved in actively debunking this issue rely on the contention that AA77 was a type B757-2 airplane, and the flight deck door status is not a wired, listed or recorded parameter in the (D)FDAU. However, the data frame of the plane in question was required to be updated according to a 1997 FAA regulation. see this link: http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10779507

AA77 B757-2 was manufactured in 1991 and was certified as air-worthy 05/08/91.
The relevant rule changes/FAA requirements are seen here in this Boeing page:

....where it states clearly that this rule change affects 757s and 767s manufactured before October 11, 1991: "This may involve the addition of new sensors and wiring plus installation of a DFDAU, software, or both because of a new FDR (data)frame". The AA77 B757-2 was clearly manufactured and deemed airworthy before that date. See this link: http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=644AA

However, as seen in this NTSB document, (warning! large PDF!), http://www.ntsb.gov/info/AAL77_fdr.pdf it states clearly at the bottom of Page 2 that the AA77 B-757's data frame is based on that of a B757-3, as opposed to a B757-2. It appears that the parameter set was likely to have been upgraded on the AA77 Boeing 757 (prior to 9/11, obviously).

I acknowledge that there are still some unknowns here but it appears illogical that the NTSB would base their FDR analysis on a dataset that was incompatible to that of the plane under analysis. Furthermore, at the top of Page 1-8 on the NTSB analysis (see pdf link above), the flight deck door parameter is included (Port EICAS L/R-A-1). Was it wired? According to Captain Ralph Kolstad who flew 757s for American Airlines, he confirmed: "there is an overhead button to push to open the flight deck door. The button lights up when the door is open. There is a sensor on the door., it was indeed operative".

This story is very much alive. It all boils down to whether the sensor was installed and operative on *this particular* 757, and there is official NTSB/FAA evidence that this particular AA77 B-757-2's dataframe was upgraded/retrofitted to conform to 757-3 standards.

Unfortunately, both the NTSB and the FBI refuse to comment on this matter.

"Unfortunately, both the

"Unfortunately, both the NTSB and the FBI refuse to comment on this matter."

Is it existing a legal way to compel the FBI and the NTSB to provide answers?


Maybe Aidan could file another FOIA request to get this information? he seems to be the guru of getting them to admit things with their own paperwork...

The love that you withhold is the pain that you carry

Yes there is. A full,open

Yes there is. A full,open and completely public, no holds barred (re)investigation of 9/11 with full subpoena power. This is what the 9/11 truth movement is all about: finding out the facts behind all the hundreds, if not thousands of "unknowns" and unanswered questions, which the powers-that-be refuse to answer, and the corporate media (for reasons which they refuse to state) refuse to address. The details of AA77 757's FDR is just one of these numerous issues.

Updata to the information on AA77 B757-2 frame data format

To update this issue, refer to the information in the following NTSB report:

Specialist’s Factual Report of Investigation
DIGITAL Flight Data Recorder

NTBS Number DCA01MA064

This is at: http://www.ntsb.gov/info/AAL77_fdr.pdf

This calls out the parameters in the frame data format that were not working or were unconfirmed:

Parameters Not Working or Unconfirmed



But it clearly says in this report:

The transcribed data were reduced from the recorded binary values(0s and 1's) to engineering units (for example feet, knots, degrees, etc.) using conversion formulas obtained from Boeing and American Airlines for this airplane. See footnote 1

Footnote 1
Based on B757-3B frame data.

So it is clear that the NTSB used the B757-3A frame data format and corresponding software for the B757-3A to decode the data from flight AA77. So what exactly does this all mean. Clearly AA77 which was a B757-2 did not turn itself into a B757-3A. Aircraft can never change their certification type. See http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=N644AA. This plane was manufactured as a B757-2 and when it crashed into the Pentagon it was still a B757-2.

But it is clear that the frame data for the B757-2 is subset and is upward compatible with the B757-3A, and not that AA77 had all of the data that can be stored in the B757-3A frame data format. Data that was not defined in the B757-3A format for the B757-2, is listed in this report as parameters that are not working or unconfirmed, and the FLT DECK DOOR is listed as just one such parameter.

Undefined parameters are generally grounded, in the case of the FLT DECK DOOR this would always show closed whether the FLT DECK DOOR was open or closed.

Since the Revision Letters in D226A101-3 for the FDR for the B-757-2 never called out the addition of this parameter for the B757-2 as I had described in a prior post, this parameter is undefended for the B-757-2, even when the software decoding the B757-2 data is using the B757-3A frame data definition.

If this parameter had ever been added to the B757-2 it would have been added to the FAA documentation and would have also been described in Boeing revision document D226A101-3 at http://www.orbitfiles.com/download/id4067718242.htm for the B-757-2 frame data format and it is not.

I hope this clears this issue up!

Thank you!

We must look for things that we can scientifically test ourselves with out input from the government. Things that can not be argued against or easily dismissed, do you want to be "conspiracy theorists" or win back your democracy?

Regards John

9/11 24/7 UNTIL JUSTICE!!

757-2 is NOT a 757-223. DFL # NOT Based on Aircraft Type

You guys should really have clicked the link Adam added above.

757-2 is NOT a 757-223. Data Frame Layout Number NOT Based on Aircraft type

757-2, 757-3b (it's b by the way, not A) is not B757-2, nor B757-3A, nor B757-200, nor B757-223. Why are people here equating Data Frame Layout number to aircraft type? Its different as you have already seen in the post linked above to the P4T Forum. UA93 uses 757-4 DFL. Does that mean UA93 is a 757-400? No. DFL 757-4 also doesnt show FLT DECK DOOR, nor is it recorded on UA93, nor is it listed anywhere in the NTSB pdf for UA93. John Bursill should be able to know this. But instead he jumps on the bandwagon for anyone who comes up with excuse to discredit P4T. He is wrong and so is rschop.

As for "not working or unconfirmed" - Radar Altitude is also listed as "not working or uncofirmed" but it is recorded as are many other parameters listed....

"Another claim that could be made is that the NTSB lists this parameter as "not working or unconfirmed". They also list Radar Altitude the same - "not working or unconfirmed". Those who make excuse for the govt story cherry pick the newly decoded Radar Data for their impact theories but disregard confirmed Pressure altitude data which shows too high to hit the Pentagon. It is quite possible the NTSB listed "FLT DECK DOOR" as "unconfirmed" due to the fact they believe the door would and should have been opened during flight for the hijack to take place. Again, this goes back to the jumpseat issue and why the FAA ceased all offline commuters access to the jumpseat post-911.[Until verified and then CASS system]"


"Many common arguments are adddressed by P4T at this link as they arise... http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=18428

PS: Why dont you guys bring this to P4T instead of being wrong on blogger? You're making the Truth Movement look like fools! Especially if some of you claim to work for an airline!

Thanks painter, I've been

Thanks painter,

I've been following this on the P4T forum since the original post was made on blogger. Definitely an interesting topic.

Can ANY pilot execute a 280 degree

downward spiral in a 757 and turn that into a 'Low and Level' flight path a few feet above the ground???

A 280 degree banking maneuver in a 757 at 500+ mph by an advanced pilot to dive bomb the top of the Pentagon would be outrageous-- if possible.... OR a low and level flight path a few feet above the ground going 530+ mph. But BOTH??

How do you stabilize the dive into that final trajectory?

Repy to Data Frame Layout Number NOT Based on Aircraft type

I had already answered this in a prior post but here it is again!

The latest Data Frame Layout for a B757-2 is described in, the engineering control document D226A101-3, the document controlling the revisions of the B757-2 FRD Data Frame Format. The B757-, B757-2, and B757-3 data frame formats are listed in this control document in detail.

In http://www.ntsb.gov/info/AAL77_fdr.pdf they have used the Data Frame Format for a B757-3 and frame data format decoding software at rev B757-3B to decode the data in the data from the B757-2, and have also listed the parameters that are “not working or confirmed” in this format, which included the FLT DECK DOOR status as I had described before.

This is because the Data Frame format for the B757-3 just happens to be a super set of the Data Frame format of the B757-2 as long as the unused data bits are listed and are ignored.

At first it looks like it is equivalent to either describe the complete set of stored parameters for the B757-2 in one list as in D226A101-3 or list the entire B757-3 parameter list and then show which ones do not apply to the AA77 or a B757-2 in the list that is headed, “Not Working or Unconfirmed”.

Both lists will in effect have the same parameters unless they made a mistake putting together these lists. But it should be noted that the http://www.ntsb.gov/info/AAL77_fdr.pdf is not an engineering revision control document for the B757-2, the IC&RD Revision history D226A101-3 is. The http://www.ntsb.gov/info/AAL77_fdr.pdf is a report for the NTSB on the study of the FRD data on AA77, that just happens to use the B757-3 software to do the decoding of the AA77 flight data since the B757-2 data format is a subset of the B757-3 data format.

From an engineering prospective http://www.ntsb.gov/info/AAL77_fdr.pdf does not modify the data format of a B757-2, that would be against the law, only the engineering revision control document D2226A101-3 tied back to a FAA AD number can do that, and the http://www.ntsb.gov/info/AAL77_fdr.pdf cannot turn the data format for a B757-2 into the data format of a B757-3.

The FDR format is always controlled by the engineering control document for that aircraft type, where everyone is getting confused is it just happens that this format is subset of the B757-3 format and the rev B757-3B software can and was used in the NTSB report to decode the defined bits for AA77.

In any case D226A101-3 describes all of the defined parameters in the B757-2 data format, and the FLT DECK DOOR is not listed in this format, the Revision Letters for the B757-2 in this document do not mention any change to the FLT DECK DOOR parameter for this aircraft type and even the http://www.ntsb.gov/info/AAL77_fdr.pdf says that when the B757-3 software that was used to decode the B757-2 data frame format it specifically listed the FLT DECK DOOR in the not working parameter list. Since the FLT DECK DOOR is not working, or undefined it would be grounded which would always show a “0” in the FDR data which would I indicate a closed FTL DECK DOOR with no change possible even if the door were either closed or opened.

Rob indicates you are still off the mark rschop

Quoting, links at source: http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=18405&st=220&p=10...

Ok folks,

I think we may have squashed the GL arguments once and for all without even using the American Airline MX Manual.

Attached are 3 csv files. You can open them with Excel or Open Office (free on the net). They were copy/pasted from the RO2 decode we performed which you can find here.

Reserved.csv are all the reserved parameters for future use on that aircraft if the Airline wants to hook them up to be recorded at a later date.

Reserved_Spares.csv are all the Reserved Spares.

Some of the above are being recorded as you can see the digits are changing. But some I'm sure are not. Therefore you see a 0. Being that it is under Reserved, clearly some were hooked up as a "nice-to-know" parameter and the heading was never changed in the DFDAU. Those where you see a 0 may be hooked up, or may be grounded which show a zero. But it doesnt matter as they are listed as Reserved.

The last file is the most important.

Comparator.csv shows the recording for the Capt and FO Comparator.

The comparator compares Capt instruments to FO instruments to make sure they are both reading equally, if they arent within a certain tolerance, you get an alert. This is a MASTER WARN. RED with high pitched Bells/Dings!

Note that the Comparator_Fail_FO have empty cells yet the others are recording a digit. The empty cells are due to perhaps a broken line between the sensor and the FDAU.

Conclusion - (Capt Comparator showing a fail notwithstanding as that looks like it may be another smoking gun)

1. If FLT_DECK_DOOR was reserved for future use and not hooked up to record any sensors, you would see it listed with the other reserved parameters as RSVD_FLT_DECK_DOOR

2. If the data was labeled RSVD_FLT_DECK_DOOR, our article would not exist as we would know its a Reserved parameter perhaps for future use and may not be a valid recording.

3. If the FLT_DECK_DOOR was not recording but intended to record sensors. You would see blank cells as you see in the above COMPARATOR_FAIL_FO.

The FLT_DECK_DOOR was recording to the FDR and it was closed. The NTSB/FBI need to explain how a closed door indication provided by their data enabled a hijack to take place on AA77.

Copy/paste this post everywhere a duhbunker is spinning, and then watch him twist in the wind.

click link for downloads.


Again, why not take this discussion to the Pilots forum?

In any case D226A101-3

In any case D226A101-3 describes all of the defined parameters in the B757-2 data format, and the FLT DECK DOOR is not listed in this format.

Many parameters are not listed in section 9 of the document yet they appear in the NTSB CSV files, for example ENG EPR ACTUAL, FILTER 1 VIB and many others. These parameters like FLT DECK DOOR are read from digital ports. More than one (often many more) parameters are read from each digital port. FLAP HANDLE POSN is read from analogue port A18. FLT DECK DOOR is read from Digital Port D14. Parameters are listed by port in pages E1 to E65 of the document (pages 397 to 461 of the PDF file).

W Stutt.

So the man who set this ball rolling is saying the FLT DECK DOOR was a defined parameter,tells you where to find that parameter,in the NTSB CSV files, and even tells you where that parameter is read from,DIGITAL PORT D14.

He is surely talking about something that actually exists as a defined and working parameter.

Explaining AA77 FDR and undefined data bits for the third time!

I could swear that had I covered this in prior posts, in fact several times, but here it is again and for at least the third time.

The CVS file that the NTSB is looking at was decoded by software for a B757-3B type airframe. It turns out that the B757-3B software cannot tell what type of airframe type this CVS file had been recorded on, so it decodes the CVS file as if it were created on a B757-3B and lists all parameters for the CVS file that correspond to those valid for a B757-3B.

We know that in fact the CVS file came from a DFDAU on AA77 a B757-2 and we know from the engineering control document D226A101-3 that many parameters in the B757-3B format are not valid for the B757-2. But because the B757-2 Frame Data format is an upward compatible subset of the parameters in a B757-3B format, this works as long as the undefined parameters of this B757-3B format are listed and the NTSB in fact had correctly listed in their report all of the parameters in the CVS file that were “not working or unconfirmed” in this B757-2 CVS file from flight AA77 and had listed the FLT DECK DOOR as one such parameter.

To summarize, we know from D226A101-3 that the B757-2 was manufactured with this FLT DECK DOOR parameter not connected to the DFDAU, and it is not even defined to be in the B757-2 Frame Data Format, and all of the Revision Letters in D226A101-3 did not add this parameter to the B757-2 Frame data Format, and even the NTSB report for the DFDAU for the data on AA77 specifically says this parameter is "NOT WORKING OR UNCONFIRMED".

This parameter can never be added to the DFDAU without it being both listed in the Frame Data Format for a B757-2 in D226A101-3 and this change also called out in a Revision Letter in the D226A101-3 document, the defining engineering control document for the FDR on the B757-2!

In the now famous words of FBI Agent Dian Corsi, on August 29, 2001 when she, under orders from the CIA and FBI HQ, shut down FBI Agent Steve Bongardt’s investigation of Mihdhar, actually knowing that this action would allow the al Qaeda terrorists to murder thousands of Americans:

“I don't know how many other ways I can explain this to you.”

To explain, Corsi had been acting under orders from Rod Middleton her boss and CIA officer Tom Wilshire, when she shut down FBI Agent Steve Bongardt’s investigation of Mihdhar on August 29, 2001, with the excuse that he and his Cole bombing investigation team could not investigate Mihdhar because the NSA had not given written permission to pass the NSA information on Mihdhar and Hazmi to FBI criminal investigators. But, we now know the NSA had already approved Corsi to give this information to the New York FBI investigators that wanted to investigator Mihdhar on August 27, 2001 two days earlier!

I bring this up because this is the real scandal, that the CIA and FBI Agents acting on orders from the CIA, deliberately, knowingly and intentionally allowed the al Qaeda terrorists to murder thousands of Americans on 9/11, not that some bits in a FDR CVS file on AA77 from inputs that were not even connected to the FDR mean anything useful.

The iron clad proof that the CIA had deliberately allowed the al Qaeda terrorists to murder thousands of Americans on 9/11 comes right from the US government’s own documents!

>>allowed the al Qaeda

>>allowed the al Qaeda terrorists to murder

It all seems reasonable until this part and then . . .

re: It all seems reasonable until this part and then . .

Maybe you can explain what is not reasonable to you about the CIA and FBI HQ "allowed the al Qaeda terrorists to murder" 3000 people on 9/11.

According to the DOJ IG report, see the "9/11 Time line" or www.eventson911.com, the CIA working with FBI HQ Agents and units at FBI HQ that had subjugated, kept secret from the FBI Cole bombing investigators, in a massive criminal conspiracy, the information from the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting and the fact that Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi had been at that meeting with Walid Attash actually planning the Cole bombing.

When the FBI Cole bombing investigators accidentally found out that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US on August 28, 2001, information the CIA and FBI HQ had known since August 22, 201, they shut down this investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi. When the CIA and FBI HQ did this both agencies knew Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US only in order to take part in a massive al Qaeda attack, that they had been warned about since April 2001. Since they knew about this attack and knew it would kill thousands of Americans, they also knew shutting down the FBI Cole bombing investigation of these al Qaeda terrorists would result in the deaths of thousands of Americans as a result of their actions.

All of this comes from US official government web sites and sources!


lihop or mihop


Would Vic's post seem more reasonable if you allowed that:

1. Al Qaeda leaders might have been working with CIA leaders to perform 9/11, using lower level staff?

2. The CIA learned about an al Qaeda plan and set about making sure it worked? They would have needed a lot of help to get the explosives in place and air defences stood down.

Either way, it appears to be mihop, so the assumption that al Qaeda did it alone needs a bit of scrutiny, so why the anger?

The BULK of people murdered

The BULK of people murdered on 9/11 were murdered by explosives in 2 buildings.

Not planes.

Did "Al Qaeda terrorists" plant these explosives? No.

So no, those "terrorists" did not kill 3000 people.

But yes, the Government did allow things to happen!