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Discussion with Miles Kara about 9/11 air defense

Following the publication of the paper "Anomalies of the air defense on 9/11" (see here: http://www.journalof911studies.com/resources/Schreyer-Vol-33-Oct2012.pdf ) in October 2012 a discussion started between author Paul Schreyer and Miles Kara, former professional staff member of the 9/11 Commisson, assigned to their "Team 8", investigating the air defense on 9/11. Kara also published an article about this in November 2012 (see here: http://www.oredigger61.org/?p=5747 ).

Following the core points of this discussion, based on 7 questions Schreyer raised, published now with the approval of both at 9/11 Blogger and at JREF.

1.

Paul Schreyer: The time of Scoggins´ first call to NEADS - I have it in my paper on page 6, lower part. What do you make of this? When did this call happen?

Miles Kara: The first NEADS/Scoggins communication was the Watson call to Boston after the Cooper alert. On the NEADS tapes you can hear the two calls concurrently overlap. While Deskins is talking to Cooper, Watson is talking to Scoggins. There was no previous call. Colin does not have his recall correct, here. And you cannot go by participant recall, it is just as inaccurate as eyewitness accounts, by and large. Colin did not, did not go immediately to the floor, he was on break and held back, at first, so as not to get in the way. There are no primary source records of any contact between Boston and NEADS prior to the Cooper call and the subsequent Watson call. So that is what you have to go on, not the anecdotal accounts.

Paul Schreyer: You´re missing my point. Scoggins clearly remembers talking to NORAD about American 11, when it was 20 miles south of Albany. Though it is true, that memories can be false sometimes, this is clearly not the type of information you invent erroneously in hindsight. A journalist from national public radio here in Germany interviewed Scoggins in 2011 and asked him on my behalf just about this again. Scoggins repeated the information, saying he would even witness it before a jury and that there were indeed a few minutes, that "never matched up".

Miles Kara: You rely on anecdotal information unsupported by the primary source information.  Scoggins never talked to NORAD, he talked to NEADS and that conversation began with Watson's call circa 8:40. 

2.

Paul Schreyer: Why couldn´t NEADS see American 11 on radar, when Boston Center could?

Miles Kara: Because NEADS was looking to the North of where AA11 actually was when the surveillance technicians started their search. I cover this, in part, in my most recent article on my website. This is a far more definitive account that anything I've previously done.

http://www.oredigger61.org/?p=5629

Paul Schreyer: You answer, because NORAD was looking to the north of where flight 11 really was. Again, this seems not very convincing, considering Boston Center even gave precise coordinates to NORAD and they still couldn´t see anything. There weren´t that many planes southbound in that precise area at that time. It´s simply not understandable that NORAD´s surveillance experts couldn´t see the radar blip, when civilian air traffic controllers could. In my opinion this strange inability of NORAD has two possible explanations: either Boston Center didn´t see American 11 that moment, but a virtual insert, or the American 11 blip was real, but filtered out somehow on the NORAD screens. 

Miles Kara: The coordinates were passed to Dawne Deskins at 8:40 and that became the Z point around which the Surveillance Technicians began their search.  As you should know, NY TRACON also had difficulty at first finding the radar track. The only mystery here is in your own mind.

3.

Paul Schreyer: The issue of the "radar gap" exactly were AA77 turned - I have it on page 2 of my paper: "How could the alleged hijackers have known that this gap existed, where it was located, and when they would have arrived there?"

Miles Kara: You make too much of this. The plan, retrospectively was to manipulate each transponder differently. It fell to Hanjour to turn his off during the turn back. We can speculate that the hijacker pilots intuitively knew that a turnoff in the interior would be problematic. They didn't need to know the specifics, just that it would be problematic. It is my recall that the JSS (Joint Surveillance System) coverage map was in the public domain at the time. It would not have been difficult for Atta et al to pull it up. Plus, retrospectively, we can assess that they wanted the transponder manipulations to each be in a different en route control center space, not including Washington Center. (The four were Boston, New York, Indy, and Cleveland)

Paul Schreyer: You say: "We can speculate that the hijacker pilots intuitively knew that a turnoff in the interior would be problematic. They didn't need to know the specifics, just that it would be problematic." So that would mean they catched the radar gap precisely by coincidence? This is not very likely. Because disappearing in the radar gap was essential for the success of the whole mission. Then you say: "It is my recall that the JSS (Joint Surveillance System) coverage map was in the public domain at the time. It would not have been difficult for Atta et al to pull it up." Now, that sounds interesting, but it´s way too vague. We need a definitive source here. Can you show me this map? And where precisely should it have been "in the public domain" before 9/11? That´s important, otherwise there is no backing for your claim.

Miles Kara: The JSS coverage map was uploaded from my work files by Erik Larson.  I've posted it somewhere in one of my articles.  When I stumble across it I'll send you the link.  I'm not going out of my way on this issue.  On my work copy uploaded by Larson you will note that I, too, was intrigued by the location of the turn.  It was a coincidence; they would have known nothing about the complex sort box issue at Indy Center whereby the primary returns, that were in the system, were not fed to the scopes tracking AA 77.  That was a technical issue tied to the algorithms in place that day at Indy Center.  AA77 was never lost on radar.

4.

Paul Schreyer: Langley scramble, "generic flight path" - How could the initial scramble order be simply "superseded" by a standard flight plan, every jet receives? I don´t get this.

Miles Kara: You need to reread one of my very first articles on the Langley scramble "gang aft agley." I explain this thoroughly. Here is the short story. The scramble order lacked a necessary component, a distance. Langley Tower knew that it could be difficult to try and find a flight plan that would work, so they used the tried and true cold war flight plan 090 for 60, knowing full well from experience that someone else would turn the pilots, once airborne. The procedures in place called for runway heading to 4000 feet, in this case just short of the Delmarva Peninsula. That point is faint but clear on the radar path. At that point the TRACON controller asked the lead pilot which way he wanted to go. Lacking any other information the two decided to go with 090 for 60 and that sent the fighters to Giant Killer. When I replayed that communication for the Langley lead pilot he was brutally honest with himself. "That was an opportunity missed," he said. On three separate occasions I visited Langley Tower to sort all this out. Three times the Langley controllers told me that they would do the same thing if they had it to do over, 090 for 60. Those are the facts. It happened that way. There is nothing nefarious about any of this. Fog of war.

http://www.oredigger61.org/?p=73

Paul Schreyer: So the Langley pilots made the mistake. They "missed an opportunity". Okay. But how did they forget the initial scramble order they received from NORAD? Did they forget it at all? Frankly, I don´t believe that these professionals "forget" such things. The issue is still unsolved to me. And what a coincidence again, that the air traffic control tapes, which could tell us a lot more, are missing in this case …

Miles Kara: The scramble order was not forgotten; both Norfolk TRACON/Tower and the Langley lead knew very well what the scramble order was.  The flight plan 090 for 60 was simply later information.  The scramble order did not specify a target.  There are no pertinent missing tapes pertaining to the Langley scramble; I don't know where you get this nonsense.  The weapons controllers are heard on multiple positions at NEADS and we have the TRACON tapes.  The fact that Langley Command Post and Tower did not retain their records does not detract from the story.  We know what Langley Tower did and why they did it.

Paul Schreyer: Indeed, the misleading flight plan 090 for 60 was later information. But who precisely issued it? I checked the 9/11 Commission´s documents about this:

From the 9/11 Commission´s Memorandum for the record, interview with William Casson, Radar Controller at Norfolk TRACON: "He took the call from HUNTRESS (= NEADS) on the scramble line. He recalled the order contained a heading, 010, and altitude and a frequency. After that the flight strip came out with different information, 090 for 60."

From the 9/11 Commission´s Memorandum for the record, interview with John Harter, Operations Supervisor at Norfolk TRACON: "The flight strip showed 090 for 60. All they could figure out was that someone through secure communications changed the scramble order to which they were not privy. They do not have a secure line. He personally understood that the flight plan was different from the scramble order but did not take steps to change it. He has never done that."

My question: Did you ever try to find out who precisely changed the scramble order?

Miles Kara: No one changed the scramble order. Scramble orders serve to get planes into the sky.  Thereafter, controllers tell them what to do.  That is what everyone is used to.  The Vigilant Guardian tapes for Sep 3 may have some examples.  The controller on duty at Langley inserted a standard flight plan 090 for 60 that he knew would go through immediately.  I stress, that was a flight plan, he worked under FAA policies and procedures and had to put something into the system that it would immediately accept.  It would not, would not accept the scramble order because there was no distance. A flight plan requires a distance, pure and simple.  He did what he was supposed to do, get the planes into the air.  He did it then, and he would have done the same thing again, he told us emphatically.  As I have constantly said over the years, we understood that everyone concerned with the Langley scramble did their jobs as best they could.  The scramble was a series of understandable and logical individual events that did not cohere in the aggregate.  The Otis scramble was not followed, either, in a fluid situation and that is well captured on the ATC tapes and the NEADS tapes. There is nothing else to be said.

5.

Paul Schreyer: Langley scramble, 9:50 turn to the southwest - Lynn Spencer reports (and you repeat) it was just an erroneous transposition of coordinates. At the same time both of you keep completely silent about Venus 77 being there at exactly the same time. You say: "They were unrelated events." Okay, that´s your hypothesis. Can you prove it? Why is it "academically irresponsible" to suggest another hypothesis, namely, that these events could have been related indeed? And why is there no explanation at all of the 9:50 turn in the 9/11 Commission Report?

Miles Kara: Venus 77 was not there at exactly the same time. There is a time and spatial separation between the two. You have to run the radar to fully appreciate this. Venus 77 is a sidebar story, at best, having to do with continuity of operations and support for Air Force One. Because the NMCC transitioned to an Air Threat Conference Call, that triggered SIOP (single integrated operation plan) (Doomsday) procedures. Venus 77 literally self launched at 9:43 EDT under VFR rules (that's on the Andrews tapes) and I would like to recall declared for Wright Patterson AFB. Once airborne that changed and the plane turned back west over Silver Spring MD (that is the "mystery" plane) and proceeded to set up a 60-mile north-south orbit centered on Richmond, VA. That orbit is explicit on the graphic you cite, by the way. I know who prepared that graphic and he and I agree there is zero correlation with the Langley fighters. More important, there is nothing, zero, on any tapes, NEADS or Andrews or Reagan or ZDC that ties the two planes together. The segue south occurred exactly as Lynn Spencer and I have it and exactly as captured on the NEADS tapes. There is no story here.

Paul Schreyer: The langley fighters turned at 9:50 and were then heading exactly for the southbound Venus 77. So it appears from radar, that they followed that aircraft. That´s obvious. You say, "there is nothing, zero, on any tapes, (…) that ties the two planes together". Sounds convincing. My problem only is that there are so many tapes missing from 9/11. Then you say: "The segue south occurred exactly as Lynn Spencer and I have it and exactly as captured on the NEADS tapes. There is no story here." Maybe so. But I would be not so sure about it. By the way, the turn didn´t "occured exactly as Lynn Spencer" has it, as you say. In her book she claims, the Langley fighters turned southwest at 9:40 and turned again towards Washington at 9:51. Both times are wrong. You also didn´t answer my question: Why is there no explanation at all of the 9:50 turn in the 9/11 Commission Report?

Miles Kara: Sigh. The Langley fighters did not follow Venus 77.  What are the "so many missing tapes,"  to which you refer.  This is glib, self-serving language that does not stand scrutiny.  We have continuity on the Langley flight path from multiple FAA entities, as well as NEADS.  The Giant Killer tapes would have been interesting, but not central to the story.  This story is as I have told it.  Spencer is off on many facts, I should have pointed that out.  Why should there be an explanation in the Commission Report?  That was a minor hiccup that only becames important in the minds of those who speculate the Venus 77 digression, which did not happen.  The coordinate problem is the story, as I have written about at least twice.

6.

Paul Schreyer: Andrews Air Force Base. Okay, it was no alert base. It was not part of NORAD. I wrote that in my paper. Still these were fighter jets called for some reason the "Capital Guardians". Some of them were on a training mission already in the air only a few minutes flying time away. Why could nobody order these jets to Washington some time before 10:38? Not to shoot down a plane, but simply to look out what was going on there? I don´t get this as well.

Miles Kara: There was an excellent political cartoon in the Wash Post immediately after our final air defense hearing that showed the USAF and the Secret Service AF butting heads in the skies over DC. Try as I might, I have not been able to find that cartoon. The Bully, flight of three, from Andrews was well to the south over Dare Range in North Carolina. They were not a few minutes flying time away. They were recalled. Bully two was back first, a rookie pilot out of gas. He did not take off again. Bully 1, Hutchison, the flight lead did immediately take off low on gas at about 10:38 or so. It took Andrews over an hour to get a fully armed pair of fighters in the air, Caine and his wingman. None of that mattered. The Langley pilots began their CAP procedures at 10:00

Paul Schreyer: There´s a really huge time delay, I can´t understand. Andrews´ SOF offered help to the Secret Service at about 9:15, at least according to Lynn Spencer. And then it took some 83 minutes to put planes in the air? For fighters with an assignment to protect the capital? It´s pretty obvious that there is something covered up. If not at Andrews than at the Secret Service. Also North Carolina is not 80 minutes flying time away from Washington. It is claimed the Andrews jets on training mission were out of radio reach. Okay, but for how long? I remember that it was also claimed that the Langley jets were out of radio reach when they were flying east. If I get it right, the radio connection to the Langley jets could only be established again at 9:38 - one minute after the Pentagon crash. What the heck of a coincidence. Sorry for the irony. It appears just not credible to me that this was only bad luck. I have a short chapter in my paper on this, titled "Communication breakdown".

Miles Kara: Again, anectodal information sways you, unfortunately.  The fact that two action officers might have talked at 9:15 or earlier is interesting, but remains anecdotal.  Yes, it did take that long to put planes in the air.  Even when General Wherley got involved circa 9:35 of so it still took until after 11am to get fully armed Andrews fighters launched.  Why, because it takes time, measurable time, to upload ordinance from storage.  The guns-only pair, Sasseville and Penney were not in the air until after10:40 and they did not have written weapons-free authority.  The Langley pilots were never out of communication with air traffic control.  It was the comms to NEADS that were intermittent because of the range.

7.

Paul Schreyer: Vigilant Guardian - the fake inserts on NORAD radar screens. Are you sure, that this was "value added", as you write about the impact of this exercise? I think this was "noise added".

Miles Kara: Vigilant Guardian had not started up that morning when Cooper called. But NEADS was poised, the Battle Cab was operational, and additional assets were available without the need to recall anyone. That was a major plus as they expanded operations that morning. Plus, Nasypany could immediately talk to Marr, in fact could turn around and see him behind glass in the Battle Cab. When the electronic feed started up Nasypany recognized that immediately and gave orders to suppress the feed, orders that were carried out instantly. You can surmise all you want that it was "noise added" but you are simply wrong, based on the NEADS tapes, primary source information. Take the time to reread my Nasypany series to understand how well NEADS functioned that morning, over all.

Paul Schreyer: Just to understand you right: do you say there were no fake inserts on NORAD radar screens that morning?

Miles Kara: Just briefly at NEADS, a matter of seconds until Nasypany took action to suppress the feed.

Paul Schreyer: If it is right what you say, that the feed of fake inserts on the radar screens was suppressed immediately, than why all the chatter at NEADS as for example "I think this is a damn input" (9:04), "turn your sim switches off", "let´s get rid of this damn sim" (9:30) and so on? At what exact time was the feed suppressed?

Miles Kara: Read my article again, the one where I discuss, in detail, the times that the exercise is mentioned. (http://www.oredigger61.org/?p=4685) It was only when I did the research for that article that I correlated Nasypany's order with the immediate reaction by the head of the Surveillance Section.  Before that I was not aware of the sequencing of those comments.  The comment that "I think this is a damn input" is simply a muse at the time, based on years of experience in dealing with both exercises and real world.  You need to review my work on Vigilant Guardian to gain a sense of how NEADS balanced real world and exercise events concurrently.  They were well practiced in the art and knew exactly what they were doing.  Outsiders can never gain an appreciation for how professional NEADS was that morning, they performed very well, given the lead times they had, or lack thereof.  The best perspective so far is my Nasypany series.

Paul Schreyer: You mention in your article the "turn your sim switches off" dialogue at 9:30. And you suggest that the sim feed startet just in that minute. How do we know that it hadn´t started well before?

Miles Kara: We know this.  The exercise had not yet started, and never started.  We know that the Surveillance Technicians did not acknowledge any exercise feed on their scopes, prior.  We know that Nasypany's reaction was instantaneous and we know from his experience and professionalism that he would have noticed it earlier if it had occurred.  We also know that any such electronic feed had to support an exercise inject.  There was no such inject, at least as of the time that Cooper called, since the exercise had not yet started.  What we don't know is the time that the first inject was supposed to occur.  It may be that I can sniff that out from the other channels and perhaps a written scenario somewhere, but I don't really see the need to do that.

Thanks Paul

Has JREF ever answered this?

After the second tower was hit (9:03), the Pentagon was hit (9:37). Therefore, 34 minutes after everyone knew we are 'under attack', an unidentified large aircraft flew into some of the most protected and sensitive airspace in the country (Washington, D.C. - the Capitol) without being challenged. In fact, Minetta's sworn testimony before the 9/11 Commission suggests that a stand-down order was in place:

1) Aircraft position and progress observed and reported to Cheney, witnessed by Minetta
2) Request 'do the orders still stand?' with aircraft 10 miles out put to Cheney, witnessed by Minetta
3) Order stands, "Have you heard anything to the contrary?" by Cheney, witnessed by Minetta
4) Plane is not intercepted and hits the Pentagon
5) Minetta by his sworn testimony with corroboration was in time and place and able to witness these events he has sworn to
6) Minetta was clear that the plane they were tracking was the one that hit the Pentagon.

Smells like treason.

On JREF ...

... somebody posted this video about Mineta / Flight 77:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aKaEtq4EMoY

Any comments on this?

??

The video seems confusing and diversionary to me, Paul.

Minetta was explicit (clarified and confirmed w/Hamilton: "The plane that hit the Pentagon?"... "Yes.")
So 93 was "50...30...10 miles out" from where? Hagerstown? Key: what is flt 93s reference point? (In alternate scenario?)
PEOC (Cheney et al) appears to me to be tracking 77s progress right up until impact, according to Minetta
What is the evidence that 93 was even going to Washington? (Torture?)

Just some thoughts.

Timing is everything

For UA93 being mistaken for AA77 to make sense, Mineta would have to be psychic. Linda Justice could not have made any change of UA93 flight plan notification until ~20 minutes AFTER the Pentagon was hit.

The flight plan wasn't changed until 9:56am. See this:

[URL=http://img189.imageshack.us/i/ua932dcc1738radar1356.jpg/][IMG]http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/2841/ua932dcc1738radar1356.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Besides, she took back the hand-off within one minute.

When she saw the plane was heading eastbound, she changed the routing of the plane.
"The easiest way to do a handoff is to change the flight plan," she said. She changed the
plan to show that Washington Center was the recipient. In her opinion, it was an
unpopular decision because "That is also where Camp David is." The controversial step
was putting in Hagerstown because the misconception was that she had communicated
with the plane and cleared it through. The tag read, "Hagerstown - National." Before,
the tag had read LAX (its original destination).

The next step she took was to call Potomac to tell them to pull up the data block. It was
clear to them that she had created the "destination" in order to make it easier to find the
plane.

Within one minute, she took the hand-off back because UA 93 had again changed
directions. If he had continued flying in her air space, she would have had him for plenty
of time. Instead, she "watched him disappear off the radar scope-Ua 93 had 2-3 radar
returns at 8,200 feet and then it was gone."

Source: http://media.nara.gov/9-11/MFR/t-0148-911MFR-00154.pdf (see page 2)

[Editor's note: Notice that the 911 Commission mistakes the destination as LAX instead of SFO]

Here is the ~9:56 am change of flight plan seen on the radar track:

Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us

Mineta and Belger could not possibly be confusing UA93 with AA77 (or whatever it was) just before impact at 9:37 am. Belger could not confuse AA77's track to the west for something coming in from up river.

I think we agree from differing observations

Flt 93 makes no sense to me as it was "50...30...10... miles out" from NOWHERE.

I visited the Memorial, believe me Shanksville is the definition of 'nowhere'.

Hagerstown/Camp David are near 100 miles further away from Shanksville, PA where 93 went down.

If one is tracking then what is the reference location? 50 miles from ______ what? etc.

Cheney apparently knew, as Minetta did not witness Cheney ask "From where?"

This seems why it was critical to obfuscate/lie about the timing of Cheney's arrival at PEOC.

Comission says 9:58, though Minetta has him there at 9:20/9:25.

A more detailed video of Mineta ..

Here's an interview of Mineta in which he describes the location the plane was close to as it was approaching the Pentagon. It confirms that he was referring to the plane that approached the pentagon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGI5BmNd7AE

"Mineta and Belger could not

"Mineta and Belger could not possibly be confusing UA93 with AA77 (or whatever it was) just before impact at 9:37 am. Belger could not confuse AA77's track to the west for something coming in from up river."

That's the entire point of the video. Mineta was describing the "projected" path of United 93 from the north shortly before 10:28 to the 9/11 commission and in interviews with the media. If he was in the PEOC with Cheney at 9:20 as he claims, he would've described the approach from the west.

Really?

How come Mineta says that then the Pentagon gets hit? Belger said, "Uh oh. We lost the bogey."

Clearly he is talking to Belger before 9:37-- long before Linda Justice switched the destination to HGR/DCA.

10:28????????? When was UA93 ever 50/30 or 10 miles from DC?

UA93 was down at 10:03. Are you trying to convince us that the track was still being viewed at 10:28?

Mineta never describes which direction 50/30/10 refers to. Most people won't look at a map and figure out that Rosslyn and Great Falls (Belger's description) are N/W of the WH/Pentagon and DCA.

How about filling the rest of the readers in on what ADDIS77 refers to? If you don't, I will.

Really

"How come Mineta says that then the Pentagon gets hit?"

This could very easily be a later confirmation of the impact.

"Belger said, "Uh oh. We lost the bogey.""

Because the projected United 93 landed at Reagan (DCA).

"Clearly he is talking to Belger before 9:37-- long before Linda Justice switched the destination to HGR/DCA."

Belger disagrees with you and Mineta.

"10:28????????? When was UA93 ever 50/30 or 10 miles from DC?"

Again, back to the original point of the video. United 93 was never near DC, it's projected flight path was.

"UA93 was down at 10:03. Are you trying to convince us that the track was still being viewed at 10:28?"

Yes. The projected path of United 93 stayed on the TSD until it landed at Reagan at 10:28. This is the reason the Pentagon operations were halted, the surrounding areas were evacuated and the reason the rescue helicopters were evacuated from the area.
The actual aircraft does not have to be in the air to remain on the TSD. TSD information is based on flight plans and that is why United 93 remained on the TSD, just like American 11 and American 77 continued west on the TSD long after they crashed.

"Mineta never describes which direction 50/30/10 refers to."

He shouldn't have to after saying it was coming from "Great Falls, Down River Approach, USA Today building and Rosslyn.". It's obvious from which direction the aircraft was approaching, unless you're proposing that he was describing two separate aircraft at the same time.

"Most people won't look at a map and figure out that Rosslyn and Great Falls (Belger's description) are N/W of the WH/Pentagon and DCA."

And that is why most people believe he was describing the approach of American 77. Some may still believe that, but they're going to have to point out when American 77 was ever near Great Falls, Rosslyn, the Down River Approach on its approach and loop to the south of Crystal City.

"How about filling the rest of the readers in on what ADDIS77 refers to? If you don't, I will."

ADDIS77 is the call sign for the infamous "mystery plane" seen over Washington shortly after the Pentagon was attacked.

Chronology cannot be amended

Mineta is giving a play-by-play of the events he witnessed in the PEOC, in chronological order. He says the plane is 50/30/10 miles out and then they get confirmation that the Pentagon was hit. He doesn't say these events are after the Pentagon was hit.

In another interview he expands his narrative and tells about being on the phone with Belger getting a status report of something coming in from the N/W and then Belger says: "Uh oh. We lost the bogey." He elaborates and says it is down somewhere between Rosslyn and National Airport (DCA), ie, the Pentagon.

Both of these narratives prove he is talking about before 9:37. NO WAY this can be confused for UA93 or 10:28am.

You said--Because the projected United 93 landed at Reagan (DCA).

Here is the Flight Explorer, which is taken from flight data on the day.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh182/Boone870/flight93DCA.gif

Note the arrival time after the SFO to DCA change--10:28. Note the actual end time when the track ends -- 9:34. 9:34 was coincidentally when AA77 began its southerly final loop. HMMMM.

I said--"Clearly he is talking to Belger before 9:37-- long before Linda Justice switched the destination to HGR/DCA."

You said--Belger disagrees with you and Mineta.

Reply: Sure he disagrees. He doesn't want to be the one corroborating that Mineta was with Cheney at 9:37. But his testimony before the 9/11 Commission contradicts this:

http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/911/hearings/hearing12/belger_statement.pdf

Monte Belger: "During this time period I had several phone conversations with Sec. Mineta and his Chief of Staff. I was on the phone with his Chief of Staff when the second aircraft hit the Trade Center" [Page 1] (9:03am)

“The Administrator and I were in almost continuous communication with the DOT Secretary” [Page 3]

Another one: http://911myths.com/images/c/cc/Team8_Box6_FAA_HQ_MonteBelger.pdf

Page 19 --says he DOES remember about an aircraft bearing down on the WH before the Pentagon was struck.

So which is it? Belger was talking to Mineta before 9:37 or sometime nearer to 10:28?

Here are a few relevant excerpts from a transcript file named 5 AWA 161 ATSCC ENTMO 2.doc

13:41 unkown plane crashed into the pentagon [Ed. note: 13:41 is 9:41 am]

ntmo-e united nine three we spoke about him before

doug yes

ntmo-e he is reversing course over akron they just lost his transponder he is heading eastbound

13:46 ntmo-e ok united ninety three

doug go ahead

ntmo-e is twenty nine miles out of twenty nine minutes out of washington dc twenty nine minutes out of washington d c and tracking toward us this is the one that reversed course in ohio

13:48 ntmo-e ok (unintelligible) john white

doug john ok the united ninety three is twenty nine minutes out of where

ntmo-e uh he’s heading toward the washington area he has he was at flight level three five zero he turned around at akron ohio and is tracking toward the washington area at this time

14:03 doug got a uh secret service is saying there is a northwest airline inbound from pittsburgh to d c that is unaccounted for

14:40 doug ok secret service is saying that they believe united three hit camp david yeah

14: 41 doug all right ten two eight am they are agreeing they’re confirming that they think united ninety three went did go into camp david

Translation: At 9:41 they are discussing the Pentagon event. At 9:41, four minutes after the Pentagon strike they are reporting UA93 turning around . (Fact: the flight plan does not get changed until 9:56) At 9:41 they report UA93 is 29 MINUTES out of DC, meaning it is projected into DC at 10:10 am. At 10:03 the SS is aware of a Pittsburgh plane headed towards DC. At 10:40 they discuss UA93 crash at Camp David and confirm this at 10:41 as being crashed at 10:28 am.

Camp David and DCA are quite a ways apart. NO WAY they could confound 10:28 with DCA.

Please show me anything that supports UA93 being discussed as a threat to DC before the Pentagon gets hit.

You said-- United 93 was never near DC, it's projected flight path was.

I said--"UA93 was down at 10:03. Are you trying to convince us that the track was still being viewed at 10:28?"

You said--Yes. The projected path of United 93 stayed on the TSD until it landed at Reagan at 10:28. This is the reason the Pentagon operations were halted, the surrounding areas were evacuated and the reason the rescue helicopters were evacuated from the area.

The actual aircraft does not have to be in the air to remain on the TSD. TSD information is based on flight plans and that is why United 93 remained on the TSD, just like American 11 and American 77 continued west on the TSD long after they crashed.

Reply--This may be the reason Pentagon rescue operations were halted, but what does that have to do with Mineta's PEOC recollections before the Pentagon was struck?

I said--"Mineta never describes which direction 50/30/10 refers to."

You said--He shouldn't have to after saying it was coming from "Great Falls, Down River Approach, USA Today building and Rosslyn.". It's obvious from which direction the aircraft was approaching, unless you're proposing that he was describing two separate aircraft at the same time.

Belger reported Great Falls and Rosslyn; Mineta repeated this for the narrative only. I am not getting into whether it was two aircraft. This is about Mineta and his timing in the PEOC.

I said--"How about filling the rest of the readers in on what ADDIS77 refers to? If you don't, I will."

You said--ADDIS77 is the call sign for the infamous "mystery plane" seen over Washington shortly after the Pentagon was attacked.

Not quite. ADDIS77 was the call sign for the E4B that arrived into Andrews. When he took off without clearance he kept saying ADDIS77. The ATC keeps calling him VENUS77. Here is the ADDIS77 audio on 9/11. Is the pilot calling it ADDIS77 because he doesn't have a flight plan?

https://audioboo.fm/boos/466427-addis-77-naoc-boeing-e-4b-tail-nr-73-1676-on-9-11-2001

Now let me ask everyone a question. What are the chances that two E4B flights, landing/taking off only a few miles from the Pentagon would have the same "77" designation as the American Airlines flight that supposedly hit the Pentagon? Come on!

"Northwest"

You are avoiding the central point of my argument.

At what time was American 77 "Northwest" (or could remotely be considered Northwest) of Washington DC/White House? When was it anywhere near Great Falls, Roslyn or what could be considered coming down the Down River Approach?

Please answer those two questions.

Exactly

AA77 was never over Great Falls or Rosslyn.

I never said AA77 was the same plane that came down river. The confusion is about UA93 and AA77 and their timing being mistaken by researchers who assume that Mineta was speaking about UA93 approaching DC.

So what was Belger looking at before the Pentagon was struck? Do you think Belger, being at FAA HQ, might have access to multiple displays?

We have no idea what direction 50/30/10 refers to, so we don't know what display(s) those reporting directly to Cheney were looking at.

We do know that the Secret Service had a slave feed from DCA. I would presume they had much more than that.

The [Secret] Service had a slave radar feed from [Reagan] National TRACON. Radar-wise, the Service could see only what National TRACON could see.

Source: http://www.oredigger61.org/?p=3785

So what? What Belger was reporting to Mineta was not what IAD or DCA radar was watching. They were watching an inbound coming from the west, not down river. They were clearly not terribly concerned about where it was going, never called for a fighter scramble. They just watched. And when the craft turned due south, how could they determine what its destination would be?

Oredigger rationalizes all this confusion to one thing: Mineta was looking at the wrong clock. All of Mineta's recollections are off by a full hour. Come on!

Above you said the TSD showed UA93 all the way to landing at DCA at 10:28. They way I am understanding your argument, you are saying Belger must be describing UA93 coming down river just before 10:28. If that is the case, why weren't the fighters that finally arrived over DC at about 10am sent to intercept that TSD arrival? The nation's airspace had been closed for almost 45 minutes by this time.

The trouble with Belger

Monte Belger seems to have developed a severe case of selective amnesia. Take a look at all the things he did not recall. [begin at PDF page 53]

http://911myths.com/images/c/cc/Team8_Box6_FAA_HQ_MonteBelger.pdf

Belger was aware of UA93 some time around 9:30 am, but they did not know at that time that it had turned and was headed back to Washington. [ PDF page 56] How then can UA93 enter into this equation just a few minutes later? There is no way it could be as close as Great Falls.

Belger learns after the fact that fighters were in place over DC to protect against UA93. [PDF page 56]

"Langley fighters were in position over DC to cover if UAL93 had reached Washington, DC."

So why did a craft appear make it to within a few miles of the Pentagon? Rosslyn is right next door. Why? Because the Great Falls, Rosslyn, down river reporting happened before the Pentagon was hit, just like Mineta testified. But what Belger saw didn't have anything to do with UA93. Or AA77.

This is further proof that what Belger reported to Mineta happened before the fighters capped DC.

Progress

"AA77 was never over Great Falls or Rosslyn."

"I never said AA77 was the same plane that came down river. The confusion is about UA93 and AA77 and their timing being mistaken by researchers who assume that Mineta was speaking about UA93 approaching DC."

Now we are getting somewhere. If Mineta/Belger were not describing the approach of American 77 (because it was never near Great Falls/DRA), which aircraft approach were they describing?

Mineta has only claimed to watch the approach of one aircraft.

"So what was Belger looking at before the Pentagon was struck? Do you think Belger, being at FAA HQ, might have access to multiple displays?"

Belger wasn't looking at anything before the Pentagon crash, he said he learned of the impact at the Pentagon then he and Jane Garvey got on the phone with Norman Mineta. From what I've read, the FAA HQ did not have radar feeds, only TSDs. They had radar feeds and TSDs at the Air Traffic Control Command Center.

"We have no idea what direction 50/30/10 refers to, so we don't know what display(s) those reporting directly to Cheney were looking at."

Yes, we do know exactly what 50/30/10 referred to. Unless you believe Belger/"the young man" were describing 2 separate aircraft at the same time.

"We do know that the Secret Service had a slave feed from DCA. I would presume they had much more Than that."

Maybe a TSD?

"So what? What Belger was reporting to Mineta was not what IAD or DCA radar was watching. They were watching an inbound coming from the west, not down river."

Exactly the point, again. Flight 77 came in from the West. Projected Flight 93 came in from the Northwest which is what Belger reported.

"They were clearly not terribly concerned about where it was going, never called for a fighter scramble. They just watched. And when the craft turned due south, how could they determine what its destination would be?"

.They didn't call for fighters to be scrambled because they are a TRACON and they didn't deal with NORAD/NEADS. Besides, they only had 4 min. warning before Danielle O'Brien spotted 77 and the impact with the Pentagon. Most of them didn't understand what the transponder code 7777 meant. They had no way of determining if the aircraft was going to crash much less where.

"Oredigger rationalizes all this confusion to one thing: Mineta was looking at the wrong clock. All of Mineta's recollections are off by a full hour. Come on!"

I don't think he's too far off. Mineta has also claimed that the ground stop issued for New York Center happened as early as 8:30 when it actually occurred approximately 5 min. after 9:00.

"Above you said the TSD showed UA93 all the way to landing at DCA at 10:28. They way I am understanding your argument, you are saying Belger must be describing UA93 coming down river just before 10:28. If that is the case, why weren't the fighters that finally arrived over DC at about 10am sent to intercept that TSD arrival? The nation's airspace had been closed for almost 45 minutes by this time."

Because the the people controlling the NORAD fighters were not aware of the drama going on in the PEOC. The people in the PEOC were not aware the NORAD fighters were already overhead. That is why the Secret Service called Andrews Air Force Base to see if they could get a fighter airborne to intercept the projected 93. That is also why Maj. Billy Hutchison departed Andrews at 10:38 to intercept the aircraft coming down the river.

Desinformation

Your write someting plain wrong!
Start quote: "Belger wasn't looking at anything before the Pentagon crash, he said he learned of the impact at the Pentagon then he and Jane Garvey got on the phone with Norman Mineta. From what I've read, the FAA HQ did not have radar feeds, only TSDs. They had radar feeds and TSDs at the Air Traffic Control Command Center." End Quote

Mike Weikert was in charge in the FAA-Headquarter for the "primary net" (hijack-net). In his statement to the 911 commission, he describes, what happened shortly before the Pentagon attack. He says, that the FAA-Headquarter tried to "raise" the White House, Defense Department, and that Belger was monotoring "both nets":

"We were trying to raise them when we were tracking the plane that crashed in the Pentagon. Belger was in the room at the time. He was monitoring both nets." source

Monte Belger Acting (FAA Deputy Administrator) cannot remember speaking with Mineta, but can recall reports of a "high speed VFR", which flow eastward in this time:

"Belger clearly recalled reports of a "high speed VFR" headed eastward, though Belger does not recall speaking with the Secretary about this. The aircraft was characterized as an unidentified primary radar track that airtraffic had identified east of Dulles. From Belger 's perspective, he "obviously" knew there was a threat to DC when AAL77 crashed into the Pentagon." source

http://911blogger.com/news/2011-02-08/statements-monte-belger-mike-weikert-both-faa-regard-mineta-testimony

Misunderstanding

I'm not spreading disinformation, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I never claimed that Belger was unaware of the approaching "high-speed VFR," I said he wasn't "looking" at it. Even if he was, this is not what he described to Mineta.

It's very likely that Belger was aware of the approaching primary return if he was listening to any of the hijack nets. Here's why:

At approximately 9:34, Ron Ruggeri from the FAA Eastern Region called Rick Ducharme at Dulles to see if they could find information regarding United 175. Rick Ducharme had no information about 175, but informed Ron Ruggeri about a unknown primary heading toward Washington. DuCharme went on to describe the flight path of American 77 shortly after it started to turn to the south and continued until it disappeared shortly before the Pentagon. Ruggeri was relaying this information along to one of the hijack nets at the Washington FAA HQ, which is what Belger has reported he was monitoring.

Rules

Please don't use the D word.

http://911blogger.com/rules

Missed this earlier

"Monte Belger Acting (FAA Deputy Administrator) cannot remember speaking with Mineta, but can recall reports of a "high speed VFR", which flow eastward in this time"

"Belger clearly recalled reports of a "high speed VFR" headed eastward, though Belger does not recall speaking with the Secretary about this. The aircraft was characterized as an unidentified primary radar track that airtraffic had identified east of Dulles"

This only reinforces my argument. Belger was not in contact with Mineta during the approach of American 77 (or any other imagined aircraft) toward Washington before the Pentagon impact.

How can Belger be describing an aircraft that is 50 miles out to Mineta it is not in contact with him?

When did he make that

When did he make that obervation? "(...) when AAL77 crashed into the Pentagon."

"Belger clearly recalled reports of a "high speed VFR" headed eastward, though Belger does not recall speaking with the Secretary about this. The aircraft was characterized as an unidentified primary radar track that airtraffic had identified east of Dulles. From Belger 's perspective, he "obviously" knew there was a threat to DC when AAL77 crashed into the Pentagon."

How could the FAA or the secret service knew, at 09:04 that there were "two outstanding hijacked planes" heading towards DC?

Foreknowledge of two more hijacked planes around 09:03 heading towards D.C.
http://911blogger.com/news/2010-12-24/foreknowledge-two-more-hijacked-planes-around-0903-heading-towards-dc

Chronology Will Not be Amended

No matter what you choose to write here, chronology will not be amended. If the timing doesn't fit, the events didn't happen.

I don't know what craft Belger was describing, but I do know that he was describing it before 9:37. What he described is what we need to discover. When he describes it, he tells Mineta they can't see the altitude or the speed. That sounds just like a primary radar return, no transponder to supply those details. Is this what a TSD shows?

I have searched the scope views for the period just before 9:37. There is no down-river traffic to be found. As a matter of fact, on 9/11 they were not landing down river as they often do. They were taking off up-river on 9/11. This makes the Belger reports even more curious and difficult to decipher. The only traffic near Great Falls at this time was the BOBCT flights, but they were squawking and all details were readily shown. Besides they didn't disappear between Rosslyn and DCA.

Now, to address your other statements, let me point you to some documentation you might find interesting.

I said--"We do know that the Secret Service had a slave feed from DCA. I would presume they had much more Than that."

You said--Maybe a TSD?

Reply-- Are you trying to convince us that the HQ of the FAA, which oversees the nation's air traffic system, employing thousands of Air Traffic Controllers, had only TSD's to monitor? See page 54

http://911myths.com/images/c/cc/Team8_Box6_FAA_HQ_MonteBelger.pdf

"According to Belger, someone with air traffic experience would never use a TSD for precise data."

*************

You said-- They didn't call for fighters to be scrambled because they are a TRACON and they didn't deal with NORAD/NEADS. Besides, they only had 4 min. warning before Danielle O'Brien spotted 77 and the impact with the Pentagon. Most of them didn't understand what the transponder code 7777 meant. They had no way of determining if the aircraft was going to crash much less where.

Reply- Danielle O'brien saw an unidentified primary 12 miles S/W of her position at Dulles at 9:29 am, but waited until 9:33 to notify DCA, when it was 15 miles west of DCA. That means they had eight minutes possible warning. The four minute delay in notifying DCA meant DCA only had four minutes to react before impact. But again, the target turned due south at 9:34, so how could they determine what it was threatening? It was no longer headed into DC, but away.

I have no idea what you are referring to with the 7777 code. That was the code squawked by the fighters as they arrived ~10 am from the E/S/E. Chronology doesn't fit here.

The "AA77 target" primary had no tag until "LOOK" was applied at ~9:36 by Dan Creedon at DCA. This happens right when the craft is headed back west.

************

The typed version of Belger's interview is suspect. On the hand notes it says "west", but in the typed version it says east. For crying out loud! Is this what we can expect of high-paid investigators?

On Page 46 it says "remembers a u/i radar track primary i'ded by (???) w of Dulles."

On Page 56 this becomes: "The aircraft was characterized as an unidentified primary radar track that air traffic had identified east of Dulles."

source http://911myths.com/images/c/cc/Team8_Box6_FAA_HQ_MonteBelger.pdf

************
This confusion is so pervasive, it should prompt all of us to dig deeper. The level of "do not recall" is off the charts for people who were directly involved.

"No matter what you choose to

"No matter what you choose to write here, chronology will not be amended. If the timing doesn't fit, the events didn't happen."

That's a ridiculous position to take. We know for certain that the flight plan was amended for a DCA arrival. We know for certain that projected United 93 was supposed to land at 10:28. We know for certain the Pentagon rescue operations/surrounding area/rescue helicopters were suspended or evacuated shortly before 10:30 because another hijacked aircraft was headed toward Washington. We also know for certain the White House/Secret Service requested a fighter be launched to intercept an aircraft "coming down the river." None of this can be denied.

We also know for certain that Mineta only describes the approach of one aircraft coming from the Northwest. Flight 77 was never Northwest of Washington or the White House. The only aircraft coming in from that direction was the projected United 93. Mineta is simply wrong about this timing recall. Also, Secret Service logs reveal that Cheney did not enter the PEOC until shortly before 10:00 a.m.

Mineta said that the vice president was already in the PEOC when he arrived. Why would the vice president already be there before 9:20, as Mineta has claimed, if no one from ATC sounded the alarm before American 77 was near Dulles, at least 14 min. before Danielle O'Brien sounded the alarm?

Which facility spotted American 77 when it was 50 miles out (80 miles, according to Mineta in one interview) and called the FAA HQ so that Belger would be able to relay the information to Mineta?

There are no records from any of the actual air traffic control facilities that support the claim that the aircraft was first spotted 80/50 miles out from Washington. None. It can only be the projected flight path of United 93.

"I don't know what craft Belger was describing, but I do know that he was describing it before 9:37. What he described is what we need to discover."

Most people have already discovered what he describes including the 9/11 commission, Lynn Spencer and me. You said it yourself in this very post, there is no aircraft that matches the approach from the Northwest before 9:37.

"What he described is what we need to discover. When he describes it, he tells Mineta they can't see the altitude or the speed. That sounds just like a primary radar return, no transponder to supply those details. Is this what a TSD shows?"

A transponder is not required to show ground speed, ground speed is based off of radar returns.

"Are you trying to convince us that the HQ of the FAA, which oversees the nation's air traffic system, employing thousands of Air Traffic Controllers, had only TSD's to monitor?"

From what I've read, yes. Why would they have radar feeds at the headquarters? That's what the Air Traffic Control System Command Center Is for.

""According to Belger, someone with air traffic experience would never use a TSD for precise data.""

And this is what Belger answered when Mineta asked if he could pinpoint the aircraft in relationship to the ground:

"Well, that's difficult to really determine. I would guess it's somewhere between Great Falls and National Airport, coming what they call the DRA, the down river approach."

"Danielle O'brien saw an unidentified primary 12 miles S/W of her position at Dulles at 9:29 am, but waited until 9:33 to notify DCA, when it was 15 west of DCA"

This is the first I've heard of O'Brien waiting 4 minutes to report the unknown primary. Do you have a source for that?

"I have no idea what you are referring to with the 7777 code. That was the code squawked by the fighters as they arrived ~10 am from the E/S/E. Chronology doesn't fit here."

You asked why Washington or Dulles didn't ask for a fighter scramble as American 77 was approaching Washington. I said they were unfamiliar with the procedures and didn't even know what 7777 meant. 7777 is what fighters squawked when they are on and active air defense scramble. They were unfamiliar with the procedures of NORAD/NEADS.

When Danielle O'brien Saw The Primary

I said--"Danielle O'brien saw an unidentified primary 12 miles S/W of her position at Dulles at 9:29 am, but waited until 9:33 to notify DCA, when it was 15 west of DCA"

You said--This is the first I've heard of O'Brien waiting 4 minutes to report the unknown primary. Do you have a source for that?

Reply--The AA77 target is first reported as being 12 miles SOUTHWEST of DULLES by Danielle O’Brien.

Source: http://www.historycommons.org/searchResults.jsp?searchtext=Danielle+O%27Brien&events=on&entities=on&articles=on&topics=on&...

Controller Danielle O’Brien will later recall: “I noticed the aircraft. It was an unidentified plane to the southwest of Dulles, moving at a very high rate of speed.… I had literally a blip and nothing more. I slid over to the controller on my left, Tom Howell, and I asked him, ‘Do you see an unidentified plane there southwest of Dulles?’ And his response was, ‘Yes. Oh, my gosh, yes! Look how fast he is.’” According to O’Brien, the aircraft is between 12 and 14 miles away when she notices it. It is heading for what is known as Prohibited Area 56 (P-56), which is the airspace over and near the White House, at a speed of about 500 miles per hour.

Controllers Watch on Radar - Danielle O’Brien will later recall: “John, our supervisor, relayed verbatim, ‘OK, he’s 12 miles west, he’s moving very fast eastbound.… Eleven miles west.’ And it was just a countdown. Ten miles west, nine miles west.… And it went six, five, four, and I had it in my mouth to say three, and all of a sudden the plane turned away. In the room it was almost a sense of relief.” [ABC, 10/24/2001; ABC News, 10/24/2001]

Todd Lewis will recall that the aircraft “was heading right towards a prohibited area in downtown Washington.… Then it turned south and away from the prohibited area, which seemed like a momentary sigh of relief, and it disappeared. But it was going away from Washington, which seemed to be the right thing.” [MSNBC, 9/11/2002] However, O’Brien will continue: “[T]he plane turned back. He continued in the right-hand turn, made a 360-degree maneuver.… We lost radar contact with that aircraft. And we waited. And we waited.” [ABC, 10/24/2001; ABC News, 10/24/2001]

I extracted the times and distances by viewing the official FAA created scope view file named:

1 AEA 2869 disc 1 IAD CDRTM AAL77 9-11-01.exe

Timeline:
At 9:25:30 it is ~40 miles SW of Dulles.
At 9:26:11 it is ~35 miles SW of Dulles.
At 9:27:02 it is ~30 miles SW of Dulles.
At 9:27:53 it is ~25 miles SW of Dulles.
At 9:28:53 it is ~20 miles SW of Dulles.
At 9:29:57 it is ~15 miles SSW of Dulles.
At 9:31:11 it is ~10 miles S of Dulles.
At 9:32:02 it is ~ 8 miles S of Dulles.
At 9:32:53 it is ~10 miles SSE of Dulles. Now heading SE
At 9:33:57 it is ~15 miles SSE of Dulles. Headed right for Reagan National

Thanks

Thanks for the link. Regardless of when they first saw it, they did not raise any alarms until 9:32.

The questions still are: which air traffic control facility made the FAA HQ and White House aware of its approach from 80/50 miles out? Why didn't they describe the approach from the West (including the loop)?

JREF Thread

There is also a short thread at Jref that discusses the video in more detail.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=130731&highlight=Mineta

"The controller on duty at

"The controller on duty at Langley inserted a standard flight plan 090 for 60 that he knew would go through immediately. I stress, that was a flight plan, he worked under FAA policies and procedures and had to put something into the system that it would immediately accept. It would not, would not accept the scramble order because there was no distance. A flight plan requires a distance, pure and simple." [Quote-Miles Kara]

This was known to NEADS,wasn't it? They knew that giving an incomplete order would result in an SOP scramble (60 miles East over the Atlantic) & that the 'mistake' could not immediately be corrected because NEADS ordered Langley's SOF to join the others (two alter status pilots) 5 minutes AFTER (9:14) they had been ordered to Battle Stations (9:09).

Shoot Down Order By Cheney

Here is some information relating to the timing (remember, timing is everything) of Cheney's authorization for shoot down. [PDF page 2]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/17218142/T8-B6-FAA-HQ-Terry-Van-Steenbergen-Fdr-33004-MFR-875

This may be significant, if we can determine the chronology of the interview.

"Two minutes after Steenbergen suggested Garabido seek authorization to shoot, he responded that the Vice President had authorized the use of lethal force."

Start digging.

9:03"there were 4 planes believed to be hijacked and 2 outstandi

Foreknowledge of two more hijacked planes around 09:03 heading towards D.C.
http://911blogger.com/news/2010-12-24/foreknowledge-two-more-hijacked-planes-around-0903-heading-towards-dc

Turning Aircraft Away From Washington

Here is some interesting information about moving aircraft out of the DC airspace.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/17218142/T8-B6-FAA-HQ-Terry-Van-Steenbergen-Fdr-33004-MFR-875

On PDF page 1, we have Steebergen at FAA speaking to Garabito at the WH. Within seconds of UA175 hitting WTC2 (9:03 am), Garabito asks Steenbergen, "What should we do?" Steenbergen replies, "We need to turn all planes away from Washington". Garabito concurred. The three people in his office called Dulles, National and BWI to tell the pilots to turn all the aircraft out of Class B airspace.

...after the second plane hit the World Trade Center, all inbound planes were considered hostile.

REALLY?

If this is true, why didn't Danielle O'Brien turn all aircraft away from Dulles? How come planes continued to land at DCA until just after 9:37?

Start digging.

Excellent find...

This has been a point I've made many times. AFTER 175 hit the south tower how could any aircraft enter DC airspace and not be identified and/or confronted? Inconceivable, really, and the 'incompetence' narratives just don't cut it.

Cheney Speaks About Timing

Cheney speaks about being warned there was a plane headed for the WH and being moved briskly to the underground shelter. He says this is after 9:03 when WTC2 was struck and before the Pentagon was struck (9:37 am).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLwXGEOvTWQ

Let's have no more repetition of the "Cheney didn't get to the PEOC until ~10 am" argument. That makes absolutely no sense.

This supports Mineta's testimony about being with Cheney in the PEOC when the Pentagon is struck.

Very helpful

The video you linked is very helpful to this discussion. Cheney says the Secret Service agents rushed in and practically carried him out of the room after they were alerted about flight 77.

We know when the White House was alerted about flight 77… after Danielle O'Brien's 9:32 call to DCA TRACON.

"Let's have no more repetition of the "Cheney didn't get to the PEOC until ~10 am" argument. That makes absolutely no sense."

He stopped in the secure tunnel where there was a television, chair and secure phone, then called the president before entering the PEOC.

it was actually 9:52 when he entered the PEOC according to the Secret Service logs. He entered the tunnel leading to the PEOC at 9:37.

The secret service says by

The secret service says by himself, that it was informed by the FAA at 9:27, that two planes "were unsure" and it confirmes basically the account of Mineta!
http://www.habiru.de/Dirk_Gerhardt/SecretNotes.jpg

It is nonsense, that the vicepotus was not evacuated in this time.

VP Evacuation to PEOC

FOIA records obtained by Aidan Monaghan from the Secret Service has this entry:

0930-- ADC (name redacted) reported to the basement level 22' door and entered. SAIC Truscott and Zotto were already in the area with numerous (10) Presidential and Vice Presidential staff to include VP Cheney and NSC Advisor Rice. The VP was completing a telephone call at the base of the stairs. Upon completion of the VP's call, SAIC Truscott requested that the group proceed to the PEOC.

0933-- The group entered the PEOC...........

Source: http://books.google.com/books?id=M4LH0MPNws4C&q=tsd#v=onepage&q=tsd&f=false
[See page 41]

Please stop quoting unsubstantiated information.

The 9:52 arrival time was for "AUTHOR", the code for Mrs. Cheney. [see page 42]

Thank you

"0933-- The group entered the PEOC..........."

According to your own timeline, this would've put American 77 approximately 20 miles out and circling back towards the White House. Mineta tells us that the aircraft was 80/50 miles out when he first heard of it. He was not describing American 77.

"The 9:52 arrival time was for "AUTHOR", the code for Mrs. Cheney. [see page 42]"

And Mineta says Mrs. Cheney was already in the PEOC when he arrived.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=u-5PKQTUz5o

I believe this about ends the debate.

Thanks Kawika

I can absolutely imagine that after the second tower was hit (9:03) that the SS would grab the VP and hustle him to the PEOC. I can not imagine that it takes nearly an hour to get there from his office, especially in this nuclear age. But we have no real accountability and power can get away with a lot (witness Cheney/Bush 'testifying' together and not under oath).

"This supports Mineta's testimony about being with Cheney in the PEOC when the Pentagon is struck."

Right. And if we had access to the places in question I would bet that we could get to the PEOC within 10 minutes +/- tops,
even if we had to carry Cheney.

Secret Service disagrees

"I can absolutely imagine that after the second tower was hit (9:03) that the SS would grab the VP and hustle him to the PEOC."

The Secret Service was going to evacuate Cheney when they first heard of the unknown aircraft (AA77) coming towards DC. Then they held off when the aircraft was reported to turn to the south and head away. After the aircraft made its southern loop and headed back towards Washington, they scooped him up and moved him to the shelter.

ETA:

“No move [is] made to evacuate the vice president” from his White House office. The officer who takes the call will explain, “[I was] about to push the alert button when the tower advised that the aircraft was turning south and approaching Reagan National Airport.”

http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?day_of_9/11=dickcheney&timeline=complete_911_timeline

And...

And you believe him? Never mind....

Edited my post

I edited my post to to change it from the perspective of the vice president to the Secret Service because I knew some people would completely discount his statements.

Secret Service records

According to these Secret Service records, Mrs. Cheney was not at the White House when the Pentagon was struck.

"SA XXX notified Mrs. Cheney on both crashes, as they were being reported on television. SA XXX told SA YYY that the JOC was reporting on AAA of an inbound aircraft heading toward the White House. SA XXX decided to evacuate Mrs. Cheney to the Naval Observatory. While motorcading to the Naval Observatory, XXX contacted ASAIC ZZZ via telephone. ZZZ told XXX that the suspect airplane had crashed into the Pentagon. Since the motorcade was on 15th street and near the White House, ZZZ advised XXX to respond to the White House shelter and join Vice President Cheney. XXX stated that the motorcade arrived at the White House through Gate A-5 and was met by ZZZ who escorted Mrs. Cheney directly to the shelter area. They arrived in the shelter approximately 9:52 a.m."

(Document must be downloaded to view)

http://www.mediafire.com/?vydb4nxdmyy#

VPOTUS Location Logic

The Vice President was watching TV and saw the second plane hit at 9:03. Shortly thereafter they moved him to the underground because they had received a report of an airplane headed for the White House.

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLwXGEOvTWQ

This makes perfect sense. After 9:03, by his own admission, they knew it was terrorism. They moved him to a secure location so he could deal with this series of events.

Couple the early, sensible move with Mineta's testimony about pre-Pentagon impact aircraft and you have a logical connection of security moves. Add to this Mineta's conversation with Belger describing an inbound craft and loss of that target to radar. Then we have the immediate follow-up report by an Arlington County cop about the Pentagon strike. Then we have the grounding order.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XY2pMZl7yw

We have all the triangulation necessary to conclude these events happened before 9:50 am.

What makes no sense is the assertion that the SS would wait until ~10 am to move Cheney underground.

I say the SS would move Cheney within 17 minutes of 9:03, putting him underground at or before 9:20. Otherwise the figure has to be 57 minutes. It's a no-brainer.

To tie this up neatly and to provide the separation of these Pentagon/WH events from the UA93 crash at 10:03, Mineta testified they didn't hear anything about it until after it crashed.

"This makes perfect sense.

"This makes perfect sense. After 9:03, by his own admission, they knew it was terrorism. They moved to a secure location so he could deal with this series of events."

Yes, "after they received a report of an aircraft heading towards the White House." Not Washington, the White House. Not some vague report of two unaccounted for aircraft that may be heading towards Washington after 9:03. You know exactly when this report came in.

"What makes no sense is the assertion that the SS would wait until ~10 am to move Cheney underground."

They didn't wait until 10:00 a.m. to move the vice president. The vice president says, "they moved me down some stairs, through some doors, and down some more stairs into an underground facility under the White House." Then he says, "and,, as a matter of fact, it's a corridor locked at both ends." This is where there was a TV, bench and a secure phone from which he called President Bush. The corridor is not the PEOC. This all occurred after the report of an aircraft heading towards the White House.

"I say the SS would move Cheney within 17 minutes of 9:03, putting him underground at or before 9:20."

The Secret Service disagrees with you.

"Otherwise the figure has to be 57 minutes. It's a no-brainer."

. It would've been 34 minutes when he entered the "corridor" according to the Secret Service.

How about my previous post? Do you believe the Secret Service is lying about Mrs. Cheney being motorcaded after the Pentagon was struck?

Secret Service Timeline Reliability

You said-- Do you believe the Secret Service is lying about Mrs. Cheney being motorcaded after the Pentagon was struck?

The SS has an obligation to keep details SECRET. Take a look at this SS timeline, produced for VPOTUS Cheney on 9/17/01. See any discrepancies?

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB358a/doc22.pdf

[see PDF page 2]

1. 0900-- First plane into WTC1 is late by 14 minutes
2. 0910-- Second plane into WTC2 is late by 7 minutes
3. 0950-- Pentagon crash is late by 13 minutes
4. 1045-- Three fighter jets are circling is late by ~46 minutes according to radar data showing them arriving at ~9:59

Let's dig a bit deeper.

See PDF page 3, where it says, 0936 JOC advised the working shift that a plane was heading towards the White House.

The other SS document said this occurred at 9:18. A discrepancy of 18 minutes. The earlier time makes more sense to me, just from a security protocol standpoint.

Source: http://books.google.com/books?id=M4LH0MPNws4C&q=tsd#v=onepage&q=tsd&f=false
[See page 41]

Yes, it says the threat was to Washington. But the SS, as one would expect, took it as a threat to Cheney and the WH. Clearly somebody in the WH had the capability of seeing air traffic at least 50 miles out. That is about 10 minutes away. Don't you think they would have hussled the VP into a secure area as soon as possible?

Perhaps they had the capability of seeing even further as this screenshot shows:

http://img547.imageshack.us/i/lynnecheneynotes.jpg

This looks to be part of the Dana Hyde Box 1 records from the 9/11 Commission. It is such a mess it is hard to tell what, if any, is Lynne Cheney's writing. The times are inserted by someone else. But it indicates there was discussion about distances and shoot down orders being given.

Keep digging.

"The SS has an obligation to

"The SS has an obligation to keep details SECRET."

Except they didn't keep it secret. The document very clearly says the motorcade changed direction to the White House after the Pentagon was hit.

"Take a look at this SS timeline, produced for VPOTUS Cheney on 9/17/01. See any discrepancies?…"

"1. 0900-- First plane into WTC1 is late by 14 minutes
2. 0910-- Second plane into WTC2 is late by 7 minutes
3. 0950-- Pentagon crash is late by 13 minutes
4. 1045-- Three fighter jets are circling is late by ~46 minutes according to radar data showing them arriving at ~9:59".

Yes, there are discrepancies. These could be the times when this individual Secret Service agent learned of the events, not as they happened.

"See PDF page 3, where it says, 0936 JOC advised the working shift that a plane was heading towards the White House."

"The other SS document said this occurred at 9:18. A discrepancy of 18 minutes. The earlier time makes more sense to me, just from a security protocol standpoint."

No, the other document says "Washington," not "White House." We've been over this before. The Secret Service and the vice president specifically said the White House.

"Yes, it says the threat was to Washington. But the SS, as one would expect, took it as a threat to Cheney and the WH."

Pure conjecture on your part.

"Clearly somebody in the WH had the capability of seeing air traffic at least 50 miles out. That is about 10 minutes away. Don't you think they would have hussled the VP into a secure area as soon as possible?"

Yes, they had a slave feed to DCA's radar. The ASR-9 radar at DCA has a working range of approximately 90 miles. Are you proposing that someone watching the slave feed in the PEOC spotted AA 77 55 miles out before the controllers at Dulles?

You still have the problem of the unknown aircraft coming in from the northwest when AA77 was approaching from the southwest.

"The times are inserted by someone else"

How do you know this?

"But it indicates there was discussion about distances and shoot down orders being given."

You obviously don't believe the times are correct. What time do you believe all of this occurred

Stay Focused on Timing

I said-- The times are inserted by someone else

You said--How do you know this?

Reply-- I can tell by looking at the handwriting. These are her notes with inserted comments by others. On one of the other pages it says DJH in a circle. These are Dana Hyde's notes about Lynne Cheney's notes. It is full of inserts.

******
You said--You obviously don't believe the times are correct. What time do you believe all of this occurred?

Reply-- I don't believe all the times on this document are original, that they were inserted later. I'm connecting known event times with the recollections of the players. Until we obtain unredacted original documentation we will always have to speculate.

Speculation

So now we're down to speculating about what you believe because it doesn't fit with what you believe.

Going Where It Is Unsafe

http://img145.imageshack.us/i/lynnecheneynotes2.jpg

Lynne Cheney is having her hair done when the SS get a report of an aircraft headed towards the WH. They decide to take her to the Naval Observatory.

Part way there they hear that the inbound craft struck the Pentagon. They decide to take her --get this--

    right where they had just taken her away from!!
      HUH?

Are there any fighters capping DC at this time? NO! How could they be sure that there weren't any other crafts headed to the WH?

Nantucket Salon?

"Part way there they hear that the inbound craft struck the Pentagon. They decide to take her --get this--"

"right where they had just taken her away from!!
HUH?"

She went back to the Nantucket Salon?

Do you believe the Secret Service was lying, or that the documents were faked?

To the White House!

They took her away from the danger zone--- the White House was the target. Then they took her back into the danger zone.

Secret Service?

Where in the document you linked does it say she was at that White House prior to going to the hair salon? What does this have to do with Mineta reporting an aircraft coming from the Northwest?

Do you believe the Secret Service is lying, or the documents were faked?

ASR-9 Radar

You said--Yes, they had a slave feed to DCA's radar. The ASR-9 radar at DCA has a working range of approximately 90 miles.

Reply--I'm having difficulty finding a 90 mile range for DCA or IAD radar. It looks like 60 miles to me.

http://www.foia.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-090615-023.pdf

Please explain what the controllers would normally see. Is it 30, 40 miles typically? The scope view files show it at 40 miles.

. Cochrane said 50 miles out.

Radar range

It doesn't matter. We have no way of knowing if Cochrane was looking at the slave feed or if someone else was reporting the aircraft's position to him.

Do you believe the Secret Service was lying or that the documents were faked?

It matters

It does matter. It matters a lot. If the slave feed from DCA is only 40 miles, then nobody can say 50 miles out.

The next question arises: If they could see 50, could they see 80? Just like Lynne Cheney's notes said? Sure they could because she says 80 and 60. They could see further than DCA could see.

The next question arises: How did they know to be looking out that far? DCA didn't know. IAD didn't know.

Pretty damn curious, I'd say. Pretty damn important.

ATC

One of the air traffic controllers (Dulles or DCA) said they had about a 90 mile range somewhere in the recordings. Sorry, can't remember which one specifically.