I Support NYCCAN

Jon Gold
7/31/2009

This is my endorsement of the NYCCAN initiative. It's obvious that I endorse the initiative from the amount of NYCCAN posts I've made but this is a different kind of endorsement.

Today, an "anti-truther/debunker" site posted the letter (thanks to Loose Nuke for this version) written by the City Clerk that explains why they didn't allow the petition on the ballot.

The reasons given were:

First, the federal government has jurisdiction over an investigation into the attacks that took place on September 11 as well as the causes of those attacks. Establishing a local commission to conduct such an investigation far exceeds the proper scope and purpose of the petition process of the MHRL. Second, the petition fails to provide an adequate financing plan for the Commission as required by section 37 of the MHRL. Third, the petition's method of designating Commissioners conflicts with state laws relating to the election or appointment of public officers and the residency of public officers. Fourth, the petition overrearches in its attempt to confer a range of law enforcement and prosecutorial powers on the Commission. Fifth, the subject of this proposed amendment to the Charter does not relate to an existing Charter provision as is required by section 37.

Like most things I read on those sites, it made me angry. It didn't make me angry because of the usual inaccuracies, name calling, selective memories, slander, and other bullshit we usually see. I was more angry at those who wrote the petition. I would have thought that those responsible would have made every effort to make sure the petition was legally sound.

After I had a little time to cool off, I heard from John Albanese who said, "I endorsed this initiative because I already consider it a symbolic success. This initiative has succeeded in demonstrating that 70,000 New Yorkers, over 100 victim’s families & first responders, countless volunteers on the street, and supporters from all over this nation, still care about this issue – and will never stop organizing to demand answers."

He was basically looking for the positive in a sea of negative. Something I admire, and something I tried to do for the "Week of Truth."

With regards to the petition not being legally sound, I can't comment on the law. I'm not a lawyer. However, the "federal government" has FAILED MISERABLY with ITS "investigation into the attacks that took place on September 11." THAT MUCH I can guarantee you. If the "federal government" can't be trusted to investigate the attacks, then it falls to the people to do so. The reason I have always endorsed the idea of a new investigation being put onto the ballot is because if we rely on the "powers that be" to have a REAL investigation into the attacks, it will most likely never happen. However, if you leave the decision up to the people, it will most assuredly happen. A real investigation that leaves no stone unturned, that gets to the truth, that holds people accountable, and FINALLY brings justice for the horrible atrocity that took place on that day. That is what we are trying to do isn't it? That is why I endorse it.

As we learned today from the latest NYCCAN release, "the City Clerk maintains the Petition fell short in several areas but it should be emphasized that this is the legal opinion of the Corporation Counsel, the City of New York’s top lawyer, and will be challenged in court by lawyers for the five plaintiffs."

I don't know much about New York politics. What I do know is that the City of New York has treated the 9/11 First Responders horribly over the years. If that is any indication, then in my opinion, the City of New York's lawyer can't be trusted.

A long time ago, I promised that I would never turn my back on the 9/11 Families. They have been through UNSPEAKABLE horrors. If they want to fight this, then that is what I endorse. I endorse the fight. Just as I always have.

Do it for the families. Do it for your families. Do it for your friends' families. Truth and justice must be served.

I think some self-reflection is in order

Yes, I really really did tell you so. And as I've said, the importance of that is not any benefit to my ego. This is yet another sad day for all of us.

But we can't let the lesson pass us by. I have known this was coming for nearly two years. Many of the reasons stated above for rejection of the initiative exactly mirror concerns expressed by myself and others.

http://www.truthmove.org/forum/topic/871?replies=99

Our concerns were valid. Consider that every time we seemed like we were being unsupportive, we were in fact fighting for what we felt was best for the movement. And I really think we were right about what was best. AND...it's not the first time.

This is a learning opportunity. I'm not shaking my fist and anyone all that vigorously. That wouldn't help anyone reflect on the how this all played out. But in the future I plan on holding people accountable to the implications of this lesson. Next time skeptical and committed activists cry wolf, I really want more people to think that just maybe there might be a wolf.

Um Jules...

We're not done yet. And in all of your critiques, I don't see any mention of "MHRL" so "I told you so" really doesn't apply in my opinion. As tasteless as it is.


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

You can do better than that.

Jon, as much as I try to speak generally, you appear intent on taking everything I say personally. And you also appear invested in just making my comment look bad and acting like my point isn't worth considering.

Well I object to your curt response. And a good majority of your other curt responses on this topic.

The urgency in my critique has always been about preventing waste. I don't want you or any activist to waste their time. I don't want any of us to waste our credibility. I don't want the movement wasting the very little money we have.

How is that about me? I've spent days of my time writing responses to all this because I REALLY thought that was best for the movement. Just as you thought that NYCCAN was best for the movement. Well, I think I was right and you were wrong. That's not a detail we should just skip past because one of us has to be the wrong one.

This also isn't really about you Jon. I wish I could have saved you a bit of time. But the concerns myself and others have expressed were meant to benefit many people.

And now that we see more clearly what happened, I think it would benefit the movement to take from it a lesson about skepticism and the role of committed skeptic. I am not the enemy. My critique is as much of a commitment as your support.

Then Jules...

How do we hold people accountable, find the truth, bring justice to the families, and end the "Post-9/11 World?" And the reason I said it was tasteless was because several family members have endorsed this effort. Would you say to any of them "I told you so?" They do read this site.

Incidentally, has it ever occurred to you that the longer we fight this, the chances that we might get "coverage" grows?


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

Dissent is patriotic

(How do we hold people accountable, find the truth, bring justice to the families, and end the "Post-9/11 World?")

By proceeding in the most thoughtful, strategic, skeptical way we can. By paying more attention than we do to those in the movement most focused and experienced with disruption, distraction, and disinformation. By never letting Les Jamieson near anything important ever again.

I'm taking the question seriously even though you meant, yet again, to imply that the skeptic has to have all the answers, which doesn't really respect my point.

(And the reason I said it was tasteless was because several family members have endorsed this effort. Would you say to any of them "I told you so?")

I don't place ANYONE in this movement above learning from their mistakes. And yet I'd say that a good majority of those involved in this process never read the initiative and didn't know much about how it was being organized. So, I'm not sure that any of the family members involved would be likely to have run into the skeptical views expressed here and elsewhere.

The 'I told you so' goes out to all those who have insinuated that our skepticism represented any less of a commitment to this movement than support. I've taken a lot of crap for my view on this. And I feel VERY strongly that there are many in this movement that need to have more of an appreciation for the role of the committed skeptic.

In other words, if our warnings are going to continue to be valid, maybe it's time for people to stop ignoring them.

I have expressed my support...

For the ballot initiative, just as I did when Vermont did it. I believe it is a viable option. What do YOU suggest we do? One of the reasons people have a problem with your critiques is that you don't offer any solutions.

In my opinion, "proceeding in the most thoughtful, strategic, skeptical way we can" is great, but how do we accomplish our overall goal? If the Supreme Court denies the petition, and says that the Corporation Counsel's judgement is correct, then what do we do?

Aside from "never letting Les Jamieson near anything important ever again?"


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

Message to City Council

Message to City Council Attorney:

*"First, the federal government has jurisdiction over an investigation into the attacks that took place on September 11 as well as the causes of those attacks." - This is untrue.

(First, there is no jurisdiction preventing citizens from petitioning our government. As well, State's Rights are legitimate, the Federal government is overreaching on the matter. It's already established that the federal government has looked into the attacks, the 911 Commission, and have stated "we were set up to fail;" add to that, the official Family Steering Committee established a solid list of concerns surrounding the murder of their loved ones and only about thirty percent of the questions were answered, after the Commission agreed to use the list as a guide to the investigation. Also consider that the FBI still fails to list Osama Bin Laden as responsible for the attacks, and it's public record that Kalik Sheik Mouhammed's confession came from torture along with confessing to blowing up buildings that don't exist, and add to that the new evidence of nano thermite, and it's abundantly clear that a new investigation is warranted and a a large portion of the public are on the path to getting it. It is not only a Citizen's Right but it is a Citizen's responsibility to investigate and assist in the pursuit of justice.)

*"Establishing a local commission to conduct such an investigation far exceeds the proper scope and purpose of the petition process of the MHRL."

(There are no limitations to the concerns of citizens as to what should be placed on a ballot initiative; just show us the law the states "the proper scope and purpose of the petition process," until then, please do not attempt to obstruct the pursuit of justice.)

*"Second, the petition fails to provide an adequate financing plan for the Commission as required by section 37 of the MHRL."

(Any requirement with regards to an acceptable finance plan can be met diligently.)

"Third, the petition's method of designating Commissioners conflicts with state laws relating to the election or appointment of public officers and the residency of public officers."

(The right to petition the government is the freedom of individuals and groups to petition their government for a correction or repair of some form of injustice without fear of punishment for the same. Although often overlooked in favour of other more famous freedoms and sometimes taken for granted, civil liberties are enforceable against the government only by exercising this basic right, making it a fundamental right in our Constitutional Republic. The large group driving the Ballot Initiative have explained thoroughly the Commissioners selection process to over 70,000 residents of NYC and this large segment of the population judged the selection process is bona fide. The Ballot Initiative is simply the platform to see if the rest of NYC residents feel the same way and vote yes to a new investigation. The voters decide if the selection process is good enough, not the City Council.

Fourth, the petition overrearches in its attempt to confer a range of law enforcement and prosecutorial powers on the Commission.

(The Ballot Initiative is not an "attempt to confer a range of law enforcement and prosecutorial powers on the Commission," it is a move to reopen an investigation. A prosecution will only occur upon discovery. The City Council position is moot.)

the moment of truth

i agree

i just read the petition and it does have an adequate financing plan - whether or not it meets with the cited regulation is the issue

it sure looks like the clerk and city lawyers are trying to obstruct justice

it will be interesting to see what happens monday

did we need another reminder that we've emerged into open tyranny, with the fig leaf of a phony democratic process?

per Kyle Hence, "tomorrow's court date is procedural

per Kyle Hence, "tomorrow's court date is procedural and will set a date for an actual hearing of the case."

This is how it works in the court system. I hope the date is soon.

http://911reports.com
http://www.historycommons.org

Well

They're not trying to obstruct justice, it's much worse in my opinion: they're obstructing democracy. Without some sort of democratic freedom, there is no justice to begin with.

But that should be no surprise. All freedom was immediately lost in the 2000 elections. Since then, even though even that freedom was severely lacking, it has not returned.

BTW, excellent comment greenback, thanks

The Rules of Disinformation, #14

"I'm taking the question seriously even though you meant, yet again, to imply that the skeptic has to have all the answers, which doesn't really respect my point."

From: Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation, #14 - http://visibility911.com/blog/?p=1253

14. Demand complete solutions. Avoid the issues by requiring opponents to solve the crime at hand completely, a ploy which works best with issues qualifying for rule 10.

Please...

Clarify your post. The way it reads is that you are implying I am someone who peddles disinformation. Thank you.

Edit: It has been several hours since you posted that, and you have not clarified your post. You're totally out of line.

Edit: Just so everyone knows, Michael, someone I respect, and I, are in the middle of personal disagreement.


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

I find his point rather clear.

Are you really confused, or just being evasive?

That post in no way implies that you are peddling disinformation. It points out accurately that you were using false logic to counter my point. You've been doing that quite a bit with my comments, as I have also been pointing out.

You seem to be doing more

than just "making observations".

Is all this really necessary?

Edit:
This was not a response to Jules, but to a post which has now been removed.
Just to avoid any misunderstandings.

Everything...

Was deleted at my request. In my opinion, our personal disagreement didn't belong in a public setting. Think of me what you will.


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

Show "» The Rules of Disinformation, #15" by jonathan mark

Ted Walters should hand this over & work

with whomever Daniel Sunjata thinks is capable enough to get us thru all the roadblocks. I don't know Mr.Walters, but he obviously has gone as far as he can go. I'm picking Sunjata out, because he seems like a really sharp, honorable guy & seems pretty invested, in this.. He has to know creative, capable lawyers, producers, etc in NYC. That get shit DONE.

FWIW, when I went to a NY Can event over a year ago, there was at least 5 German volunteers with heavy accents. Maybe it's absouletly nothing, but my friend & I considered that really strange & like I said before, we didn't think it would go anywhere with the leadership @ the time.

Daniel if you're reading this, can you give us you're input?

I think Ted...

Is doing a good job. He has answered my questions, and been responsive.


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

That's good, Jon.

Do you think he needs some more professional's to get thru the various roadblocks?

They're getting lawyers...

From what I understand.


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

These problems are not Ted Walters creation.

I get the sense from 3,000 miles away that he and the rest of NYC CAN are doing the best they can with what they have.

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade.

The problem rests with the original petition and the decision to not re-write it and start over when they had the chance.

As others have pointed out, some more gracefully than others, there are real problems with the legal document itself, which cannot be fixed now. Anyone who has had any experience with the legal system knows that you have to do due diligence and dot all the i's and cross all the t's, then check it again three times twice.

That said, I happen to agree with Jon Gold and John Albanese on this. Let's support this as best we can and see where it goes, with our eyes wide open, making constructive criticism along the way and learning as much from this process as possible.

The struggle makes us stronger.

We do have to decide how much more money we want to pour into this, though, this is a real concern for me as we our making NYC CAN one of the main beneficiaries of our 5th annual 9/11 film festival. The film festival is our major annual fund raiser and provides the working capital for the next year of projects and activism, although this may change as our group reorganizes this fall.

I happen to like lemonade, so let's drink it, smile and make the best of it, we owe it to everyone involved, especially the family members, and ourselves.

All you have to do is choose to look at the glass as half full and get on with it.

The truth movement grows larger and stronger every day, brothers and sisters, keep up the great work!

John W. Wright

Northern California 9/11 Truth Alliance

The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.

Promote the Fight!

"The longer we fight this, the chances that we might get coverage grows." Absolutely-- we win by getting media over the court battle and should thus, promote the fight. I don't know how long this could potentially drag out, but if it's still being fought in September we should rally behind NYC CAN for the anniversary. Solidarity!

We win by getting media for the fight even if we lose the ballot drive. And it further promotes NYC CAN to publish its findings in the future regardless of what happens.

EXACTLY!

there are 70,000 new yorkers and over 100 victim's families and first responders and ex-FBI agents, etc etc all uniting and demanding their voices be heard.

hello? MacFly?

"We need to move beyond conspiracy theories and slogans - and return to our roots. 9/11 Truth is no less than a constitutional battle to ensure our rights as citizens to demand full and honest answers from our appointed representatives in Washington." JA

That...

Is part of the reasoning behind this blog. "I endorse the fight."


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

depends on how you look at it.

i am really not sure how this is a failure. after 8 years of witnessing multi-billion-dollar media machines attempting to BURY 9/11 Truth as a viable movement - 70,000 people, over 100 victim's families and first responders are going to court to demand answers to 9/11.

this is historic.

you guys should be working to PROMOTE this FACT.

what else do we have to promote Jules? our blogs? our astute observations about EACH OTHER and our endless in-fighting? CIT's absurd theories?

for ONCE we have a PR tool we can leverage!

will we win in court? of COURSE not. but it does not matter. please get that. it does not matter. 9/11 Truth - as a valid grassroots movement - LIVES. it may have been pie-in-the-sky dreams to believe that this IDEA would survive the legal process in NYC. But that is SECONDARY to the fact that victim's families are GOING TO COURT to demonstrate to the world that 9/11 still remains unresolved.

I agree with your appraisal of Les Jamieson and the very CONCEPT of this initiative. did anyone REALLY think that Ed Asner was going to question Dick Cheney under oath? LOL!! it DOES indeed appear to be designed to fail. But - HA HA - the joke is on them because 70,000 new yorkers have already cast their votes. people still want answers. people are still working to get them. This is better than any abstract zogby poll. these are real people heading to court to plea their case in front of a judge.

i suggest that a more PRODUCTIVE avenue of discussion would be to discuss how to get ATTENTION for this. forget the endgame. yes Jules - we always agreed that this initiative was ill-conceived and appeared DESIGNED to fail. but - that does not mean we all need to throw ourselves on our swords.

use it. FIGHT!

"We need to move beyond conspiracy theories and slogans - and return to our roots. 9/11 Truth is no less than a constitution battle to ensure our rights as citizens to demand full and honest answers from our appointed representatives in Washington." JA

Fight for what? Seriously.

I don't agree that we should fight. It sounds like the city clerk invalidated the initiative for valid reasons. Our bad. So then what do we fight for?

Sure play up the number of signatures and try to use the coalition built around the initiative to get some press. But I really don't think we should be out there badmouthing the city when the problem was our mistake.

OUR MISTAKE!

Show "Leave it up to JREF." by Adam Ruff

Promote CIT much?

This is so transparently an extension of your frustration with my position on CIT or P4T. In other words, you are biased against me and this has little to do with my position on the ballot initiative. I can't believe that you just spent so much time trying to talk me down.

Your call for a big tent is more damaging to this movement than any criticism I could ever offer.

Show "Disinfo much?" by Adam Ruff

You don't get to pick and choose when you are skeptical

"The problem I have with the self described "truther skeptics"

Sorry, you lost me after that. All 9/11 truthers are "skeptics". You don't get to pick and choose when you are skeptical and when you are not. But that seems to be the position you are implying. Bringing up CIT after that doesn't help you look more "unbiased" either. If you can believe that stuff, you are the ultimate non-skeptic.

Anyone who makes the claim that criticizing the 9/11 truth movement is harming it is completely out to lunch. If you believe this, then you probably also believe that the scientific peer review method is a complete "distraction". Promoting the BEST case for 9/11 and the BEST case for getting justice is ALWAYS helping the 9/11 truth movement and claiming otherwise just reveals a clear lack of critical judgment and bias.

Telling people to "not" criticize is like saying: "don't criticize the official story of 9/11". There is no difference in fact. You and no one else determines or decides what is "off" the table when it comes to criticism. Critique is how science moves forward and how we develop better technology, LEARN from our mistakes (something the 9/11 truth movement has difficulty doing). Silencing critique has the effect of repeating mistakes, not advancing, and going backwards.

For example, to claim that people who point out "problems" in the ballot campaign are "hurting" the truth movement, then you probably believe that it is better for something to fail that it is for something to succeed.

Your point of view is on reflection, completely absurd, biased, and out of touch with reality. It also seems hypocritical to call for "non-criticism" when you are in fact unfairly criticizing members of the 9/11 truth movement. But I guess your whole point was that you get to determine when members of the 9/11 truth movement can criticize and when they can't.
_______________
A 9/11/2008 Resolution: Start Your Own 9/11 Blog

Show "When you focus on the perps I will start listening." by Adam Ruff

What,

pray tell, does 'MHRL' mean? Much of the public turnoff of important matters like this and the internet in general is the overuse of insider jargon, acronyms and such. Clear, simple communications is vital. That said, thanks all involved for your efforts, energy and resolve.

...

Municipal Home Rule Law


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

I don't understand

Why hasn't NYCAN published the names and home addresses of the city clerk, lawyers, and all other local government officials who are blocking this petition? This way couldn't citizens can hold peaceful protests outside their houses, and ask them face to face why they are doing this - preferably on camera?

Is this a handful of people subverting the will of tens of thousands of citizens?
Blocking an investigation into mass murder and high treason?
.

What I don't understand is why this hasn't already been done?

I bet the real perpetrators of 9/11 have these people's names and addresses and a lot more.

Why would anyone vote this down?

.

thoughts

"The group filed a Verified Petition/Order to Show Cause with the Supreme Court of the State of New York requesting a review of Board of Election documentation and a ‘special referee’ appointed to re-validate the over 52,000 signatures filed by NYC CAN on June 24th."

"At a hearing scheduled for Monday, August 3rd, before a Supreme Court Justice, the plaintiffs, representing tens of thousands of concerned New Yorkers who support a new 9/11 investigation, will formally raise their request for an independent review of the Board of Elections findings. If granted by the presiding Justice, a re-validation of the petition signatures by an independent special referee will follow.

"In addition to the requirement to reach the threshold of 30,000 qualified electors, the petition itself must comply with New York Municipal Home Rule Law and relevant Election Laws. The City Clerk maintains the Petition fell short in several areas but it should be emphasized that this is the legal opinion of the Corporation Counsel, the City of New York’s top lawyer, and will be challenged in court by lawyers for the five plaintiffs."
http://www.911blogger.com/node/20784

According to the above, this Monday, NYC CAN plaintiffs and their lawyers will be presenting their case to a NY Supreme Court Justice, requesting an "order to show cause" and the appointment of a 'special referee'.

I have not seen the legal reasoning by the plaintiff's lawyers for why the 5 (five) reasons (see Jon's article above and the link to the letter) the Clerk laid out are inapplicable to the NYC CAN petition. Even 1 of the reasons, if found to apply, could sink the petition the way it was drafted- no matter how many signatures are gathered.

Perhaps all 5 reasons are bogus and will be overruled- the first says the Feds have jurisdiction to investigate 9/11; (this does seem bogus- NYC has no right to investigate anything related to 9/11 that happened in its city limits/jurisdiction? Certainly many local laws were violated)- but it also says the proposed investigation "far exceeds the proper scope and purpose of the petition process of the MHRL"- this may be correct- in any case, we will soon have the arguments from both sides.

The 2nd and 5th refer to section 37 of the MHRL

The 3rd says it conflicts with "state laws".

The 4th says it "overarches" and makes no reference to any laws/codes/regs/charters, etc.

Perhaps all 5 reasons are valid. Even if they're bogus, the judge/special referee might claim they're all valid reasons- or that simply one is, which would be enough to invalidate the petition.

Options, if the petition invalidation is upheld:

1) Redraft it so it complies with the law, and gather signatures again, making sure that only registered voters sign, that the forms are filled out correctly and properly witnessed (these are the main reasons cited for invalidating over 24,000 signatures- which may be bogus reasoning)

2) If the judge/special referee make bad decisions, this can be publicized, and appealed. A lawsuit may be appropriate, and perhaps some public interest org like the ACLU would take it on, if justice is being denied.

I do not agree with glo's idea (posted in 3 threads), that the 1st thing NYC CAN should do is publish the names/addresses of the public officials and protests outside their houses should be organized- the reasons cited by the Clerk MAY BE VALID. If they are, it would be appropriate to ask Carl Person, William Pepper and others with legal background who drafted/reviewed the petition- Why was the Petition drafted in such a way that it didn't comply with the law?

Carl Person, according to his website, has extensive experience with NYC Ballot Initiatives:
http://www.lawmall.com/nycballotinitiatives.php

http://911reports.com
http://www.historycommons.org

"Why was the Petition drafted in such a way that it didn't...

comply with the law?"

Who drafted it?


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

hmmm...

MIHOP or negligence?

"We need to move beyond conspiracy theories and slogans - and return to our roots. 9/11 Truth is no less than a constitution battle to ensure our rights as citizens to demand full and honest answers from our appointed representatives in Washington." JA

That is a very good question,

and one we will need to look at very carefully in the near future.

These are some very costly lessons to learn, so let's make sure we learn as much as possible and apply them well going forward.

Keep up the good work.

I hope that you and yours are well.

The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.

good question; who drafted it?

I don't know; please find out.

Again- I'm not saying it doesn't comply with the law- i don't know; I'm waiting to see the arguments presented by both sides on Monday- but if any of these reasons are shown to be valid, they should have been foreseen by the involved persons with legal background, if they exercised due diligence.

If it was negligence/carelessness- that really sucks. I sure hope it wasn't "set up to fail"- like the 9/11 Commission- but if it was, we need to know.

There will be many lessons to be learned from Monday.

http://911reports.com
http://www.historycommons.org

As you know...

In the email chain you were apart of, I agree.

Edit: According to Kyle, the "final edit and legal review was done by Bill Pepper" and "the earliest iterations of the draft language were a collaborative effort that involved Carl Person, Les and others who were involved over a year and half or so ago." Kyle also pointed out that, "it is the substance and details of the Petition calling for and structuring an unprecedented Citizens' Commission that matters here and that is being challenged by the City Clerk's office. It's an unprecedented proposal that is being forwarded here in Petition/Ballot initiative format establishing a unique Commission that would be funded privately by donation (akin to how private funds are often raised for official gov't supported memorials) but backed up by the full power of the City government as far as their jurisdiction extends, at least as I understand it."

He's right. This is "unprecedented." He's right in saying this is "unprecedented" unlike those who say 9/11 was "unprecedented/unimaginable."

As I said before, did anybody really think this would be easy? I "endorse the fight" so long as the families do. It may bring us some attention, and if it's what they want to do, then I support it.


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

legal opinion

from what i have heard.. william pepper did obtain a legal opinion for the petition from a nyc attorney before signatures were collected..

right now the battle is in the courts..

but also.. in the streets..

we need to keep moving forwards..

with hundreds of thousands of supporters worldwide.. and with the people of nyc.. gain a way for an authoritative investigation and report on the evidence.. and expose what we all know is true about a government cover-up..

this 9/11/01 i suggest we meet in nyc at the

WE DEMAND TRANSPARENCY
A Conference for Peace, Truth, & New Economics
New York City <> September 11 - 13, 2009
http://changeandtransparency.blogspot.com/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
News fit to transmit in post Cassini flyby era
<>~<>~ www.FlybyNews.com ~<>~<>
<> for life's survival in the 21st Century <>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I would like to hear from Dr. Pepper.

And hear his opinion about all of this.


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

Blindspots

William Pepper has been given a mic to speak to the public for a number of years by Les Jamieson, and consequently he was paired with Alfred Webre, Fetzer, Wood, etc. He had no objections to that.

This anniversary he will be in an event with CIT which will claim that the DC cabbie was "in on it". He has no objection to that.

He worked in partnership with the person who decided to promote all of these people to the public on the ballot initiative, a person who is now ostracized by most activists who are aware of his past and decisions. Pepper had no problem with such a partnership.

To me, the derailing of the ballot initiative is almost a given, when so many blindspots were involved already.

The effort should have been re-started from scratch as soon as it was free of involvement by people with a history of uncritical thinking and advocacy of nonsense, assuming it ever was really free of that.

When one does not understand why putting Wood, Fetzer, Webre, etc., on stage is a problem, one has to wonder what else is not considered a problem.

I realize everyone wants this to win, of course. But a reality to consider is that everyone has a limited amount of money, time and energy. A huge poorly done project can serve primarily as a sinkhole for those limited resources. Loose Nuke is right -- we don't know yet what will come of the legal challenges. But some aspects seem very basic, such as appointed or elected officials must live in NY State. Do they?

It's wonderful when some will take on a huge responsibility such as this, and attempt to move it forward. However, there is a large cost if a large project fails -- energy and money are drained and those supporting it the first time will likely be far less likely to contribute the same resources a second time when they have already lost money.

i think it is important to note

that i agree with everything Victronix is saying here.

and ask:

when is this movement going to stop handing out 'get out of jail free' cards to every new 'leader' that comes along?

i know many here feel that Pepper earned their respect with the MLK case. I too was excited over his speech about our movement being infiltrated. "FINALLY - someone who gets it," - i thought.

but - it is for that EXACT reason that i hold him DOUBLY responsible for his LACK OF RESPONSIVENESS AND JUDGEMENT on the very issues Victronix has laid out.

now i hear that Alex Jones is promoting the Birther movement?

how many AJ defenders have egg on their faces now?

"We need to move beyond conspiracy theories and slogans - and return to our roots. 9/11 Truth is no less than a constitution battle to ensure our rights as citizens to demand full and honest answers from our appointed representatives in Washington." JA

your are right

the legal situation should be clarified first

the cited laws should be published alongside the actual text of the initiative - along with the names of those who drafted it

What does Dr. Pepper say? He is a lawyer, after all

Is it not reasonable for us to expect a legally-enlightened comment from him?

http://www.DemocracyABC.org
http://www.therealnews.com
http://www.pdamerica.org

I think a statement from him...

Would be excellent. I don't know him.


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

Thanks. Anybody else?

As my nephew used to say when he was 5 years old, "I'm getting old!"

http://www.DemocracyABC.org
http://www.therealnews.com
http://www.pdamerica.org

Christine Quinn

This letter from the Clerk was sent to Speaker Christine Quinn who will be running like the Mayor for a third term after changing the will of the people with a City Council vote - and she needs to be reelected SO she needs to feel the heat from First Responders and family members who should be going to her office as soon as possible en masse. It would be unwise for her to be seen as against these groups - turning down the petition will make her seem totally unkind - a major flaw for a politician.

Outrageous!

"First, the federal government has jurisdiction over an investigation into the attacks that took place on September 11 as well as the causes of those attacks. "

Outrageous! A Federal investigation preempts local investigations? What happened to state and local government? I look forward to seeing how the legal team challenges the opinion of NYC corporate counsel.

Take heart. William Pepper exemplifies the tenacity we need.

Jon Gold once stated that forwarding 9/11 Truth is not going to be easy. Since the days of Martin Luther King, William Pepper has forwarded truth and justice...even proving IN COURT that the government conspired to kill King. Yet, history books are remiss of this fact.

Pepper points out that there will always be disappointments. We are bound to trip on occasion.
"It is you who are the torch-bearers with respect to that truth....you have to continue to bear that torch and try to get it into the mainstream, and not be discouraged when you dont... ...Steel your spines." --W Pepper

Show "New York Municipal Home Rule Law - It's long- vote down to hide" by loose nuke

Could...

Someone from Lawyers for 9/11 Truth comment on this please?


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

I Support NYCCAN

I am a foreigner, excuse me for my poor English.

You should not hope that the government of MR OBAMA will take the initiative in creating a new inquiry into events of September 11th, 2001. If the initiative of "NYCCAN" fails, there has not more than the judicial way which could allow to create a new inquiry. Currently, the only initiative of this type to the United States is the Complaint of April Gallop :

http://www.centerfor911justice.org/

There may be other similar complaints. For example it is not normally possible that the airplanes allegedly hijacked on 11 September 2001 have reached their targets (the twin towers and the pentagon) without being intercepted by fighter jets from the U.S. Army. For that to happen, it was mandatory that serious errors were committed either by the FAA or NORAD, or by both. Yet nobody in the United States has been punished for those mistakes in the U.S. air defense that caused the death of thousands of people. This could be a lawsuit from the victims or their families to find those responsible for these errors.

Unfortunately, April's

Unfortunately, April's testimony will feature the idea that a plane never hit the Pentagon, which is one of the weakest but most hyped claims in the movement. Here's one of their points:

"To cause and arrange for high explosive charges to be detonated inside the Pentagon, and/or a missile of some sort to be fired at the building, at or about the time the wayward airliner supposedly arrived there, to give the false impression that hijackers had crashed the plane into the building, as had apparently happened in New York."
http://www.centerfor911justice.org/complaint.htm

"Flyover", "missile", Skywarrior, Drone. . . you name it, if these are in the text of lawsuits, forget it -- there is zero evidence for any of these and they require throwing out the vast majority of witness testimony.

Wondering Aloud

If it turns out that the petition was not formulated in accordance with the legal guidelines that are to be observed for this sort of document, it seems to me that there is a real risk that this may undermine the confidence and trust that the tens of thousands of signatories have placed in this action and those who have been conducting it.

That would be a depressing result.

Unfortunately, April's

There are a few witnesses who speak of missiles, see:

http://www.luogocomune.net/site/modules/911/index.php?filename=911/3-Pen...

The testimonies are contradictory. But personally I consider that no Boeing 757 had struck the pentagon, for the exposed reasons in the two following links:

1) The Pentagon Magic Plane by Pierre-Henri Bunel (French Military expert)

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=2473

2) The ASCE's Pentagon Building Performance Report Arrogant Deception Or an Attempt to Expose a Cover-up? By Sami Yli-Karjanmaa

http://www.kolumbus.fi/sy-k/pentagon/asce_en.htm

I also believe that explosives were used. See: "Pentagon C Ring Exit Hole Mystery" by Michael Meyer, Mechanical Engineer :

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/ArticlesMeyer3March2006.html

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/ArticleMeyer_10June2006.html

And this video concerning the "Mystery Of The Pentagon C Ring Hole"

http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=7364619849681669102&ei=Sc35SbvXB5...

In addition, The smoke produced by a damaged engine of Boeing 757 cannot have the aspect of white caterpillar showed by this image:
.
http://members.shaw.ca/freedomsix/pics/slide1.jpg

And this video "911 Case Study: Pentagon Flight 77":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVDdjLQkUV8&hl=fr

See the following video to see the smoke produced by a damaged motor of Boeing 757: "Bird Vs. Boeing 757"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRkPpFNxd-Q&hl=fr

Latest endorsement...

Peter Phillips Of Project Censored Endorses NYCCAN
Statement of Support for the NYC 9/11 Independent Commission Initiative

The initiative to create a NYC Independent Commission with subpoena power to conduct a comprehensive and fact-driven investigation of the tragic events of September 11, 2001 is absolutely necessary! Only through open transparent public investigation will the unanswered questions of 9/11 be addressed. Foremost among the questions needing to be investigated is the fact that some 700 scientific professionals in the fields of architecture, engineering, and physics have now concluded that the official explanation for the collapse of the World Trade Center (WTC) buildings is implausible according to laws of physics. Especially troubling is the collapse of WTC 7, a forty-seven-story building that was not hit by planes, yet dropped in its own “footprint” in 6.6 seconds in the same manner as a controlled demolition. Steven E Jones and eight other scientists have conducted chemical research on the dust from the World Trade centers. Their research results were published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal Open Chemical Physics Journal, Volume 2, 2009. The authors write, “We have discovered distinctive red/gray chips in all the samples. The properties of these chips were analyzed using optical microscopy, scanning electron microscopy (SEM), X-ray energy dispersive spectroscopy (XEDS), and differential scanning calorimetry (DSC). The red portion of these chips is found to be an unreacted thermitic material and highly energetic.” Thermite is a pyrotechnic composition of a metal powder and a metal oxide, which produces an aluminothermic reaction known as a thermite reaction and is used in controlled demolitions of buildings.

Peter Phillips Ph.D.
Professor Sociology, Sonoma State University
President Media Freedom Foundation/ Project Censored


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?