it is, but that molten iron reaches a very high temperature--beyond the melting point of steel, so in fact the heat produced would melt quite a bit of the steel in the structure. Once you pile it all together, the extra heat melts the steel around it and it pools, flows, etc. Also bear in mind that steel is primarily composed of iron...

____

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force

 

Okay, this is basically a semantic issue. Strictly speaking, a thermite reaction does produce molten iron, as aluminum takes the oxygen from iron oxide (becoming aluminum oxide and leaving molten iron behind.) This reaction is used to melt steel or weaken to the point that it breaks down. Whether "steel" is the most accurate description of the unidentified flowing metal is unclear -- after a quick re-read of the Steven Jones' material, I think probably not. Tests on the re-solidified, once-molten metal, he says, reveal that
"The previously )molten metal has very little (if any)
Chromium yet abundant Manganese, (thus)
we we rule out rule out molten structural steel (as a major component)." It's probably best to describe it as "molten metal," period.

To return to the semantics issue, the guy in the video who refers to it as molten steel probably does so because "steel" is the most obvious specific word to describe "sky-scraper metal," and he wasn't making any kind of fine distinction in that description. But I think we should refer to it as "molten metal."

My hang-up here is very much like my reaction to the idea that "there were no names on the passenger manifests, when in fact what is being refered to are the pre-censored "victim lists." If something is going to be repeated ad nauseam, it's best to get it straight in the beginning.

Does thermite explode?

When we here witness accounts of hearing explosions I am curious because thermite does not explode.

Thermite=incendiary;
Thermate=explosive.

Plus, who's saying non-thermate explosives weren't also used?

There is just no precident for thermite being used to cut through vertical steel columns that would fit the profile of this free-fall collapse.

Maybe i'm missing it but I just can't seem to find examples where professional demolition companies have ever used thermite for a synchronized demolition, such as this.

thermite is an incendiary, a vastly different product to HMX and RDX which are military explosives like TNT that can be used in civilian demolition projects. Thermite is a slow-burning product in comparison, does not explode, and, as far as I can determine, is never used in demolition of buildings.

Can you maybe respectfully point me in the right direction demonstrating examples for me where thermite was used in this way?

So - i have a conundrum on my hands:

1 - i believe the buildings were demolished since they fell at free-fall speeds.

2 - the focus on thermite seems inconsistent with this profile.

got it? respectfully

thermite in its conventional form is useless in demolition: it is slow-burning, with unpredictable time to melt, and can only be used in direct contact with horizontal unclad steel beams / components. (The horizontal steel members in the Twin Towers were covered by at least 4 inches of concrete.)

He's arguing for thermate. You really need to check out The Journal of 9/11 Studies and get your facts straight. (Funny, I feel a strange sense of deja vu with this link.)

But I only say this respectfully.

Jones: “combines aluminum/iron oxide (thermite) with barium nitrate (29%) and sulfur (typically 2% although more sulfur could be added). The thermate reaction proceeds rapidly and is much faster than thermite in degrading steel leading to structural failure.  Thus, both the unusually high temperatures and the extraordinary observation of steel-sulfidation (Barnett, 2001) can be accounted for -- if the use of thermate is allowed in the discussion.”

But, both are problematic, for the same reasons. Certainly, the sulfidation of steel is an additional argument in favour of thermate, but is mitigated against because of the difficulty of maintaining contact between thermate sulphur-rich molten-iron products and steel columns.

Again, if you can demonstrate an example where thermite OR thermate is used to cut vertical columns to facilitate controlled demolitions, I would be very curious to see it and please to be convinced.

But, apparently there does not even exist a patent for the delivery of thermate to vertical columns.

Molten iron flows very fast, due to its high density, and would have only very short contact times with vertical steel members.

No fire has ever caused a steel frame building to collapse.

Unfortunately, thermate or thermite has never been used to collapse a steel frame building also.

Unless I'm wrong. This would be a case where I would be happt to be proven wrong, so I can have a clearer picture of what MAY have happened.

Do you realize that when he describes "aluminum/iron oxide (thermite) with barium nitrate (29%) and sulfur (typically 2% although more sulfur could be added)" he is in fact describing thermate? That's what thermate is -- thermite with sulfur added. He's not arguing for the use of both substances in that paragraph, at least.

But that is just one paragraph.

But of course he talks EXSTENSIVELY about thermite also:

Jones: “Observe the grayish-white plumes trailing upward from white "blobs" at the left-most extremities of the upper structure.  (The lower structure is mostly obscured by dust.)  It is possible that thermite cut through structural steel and that what we now observe is white-hot iron from the reaction adhering to the severed ends of the steel, with grayish-white aluminum oxide still streaming away from the reaction sites. The observations are consistent with the use of thermite or one of its variants.”

So - I have two problems. Thermite & thermate both are inappropriate explainations for cutting through vertical columns (unless - respectfully - someone can demonstrate an example of such). And - pools of molten metal can very cleary be explained through exothermal reactions related to using water on iron oxide.

I am unsure why the simple use of known conventional explosives alone is not the simple answer, and why this tangent on thermite exists.

I would hate to think we have been led down a blind easily debunked alley on purpose.

But I am just speculating.

Of course the inventions are available to cut the columns. In this research, I found out a bunch of interesting things with some patent searches. Things like creating a back pressure behind the thermite/thermate material, to force it as a spray. Using ejection design to force the hot material into the steel. The chemical composition of different thermites and thermates. The burning temperature of thermate and thermite. How much steel can a pound of thermite burn through. Pyronol.RTM., once ignited, will attain temperatures between six and twelve thousand degrees Fahrenheit. Wait a minute, will attain temperatures between six and twelve thousand degrees Fahrenheit. Are you kidding me, what’s this Pyronol stuff?

The data and number of patents is overwhelming.

Here’s the URL for the patent office search, just enter the following patent numbers into the search box and click search.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm

To search for your favorite search terms go here:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-adv.htm

I found the best ones when I searched these terms:
Incendiary and cutting and thermite
Pyrotechnic and cutting and thermite
Thermal and rods
thermite and cutter
thermate

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Patent Number: 5,698,812
Filed: December 16, 1997

Assignee: The United States of America as represented by the Secretary of the Army (Washington, DC)

thermite destructive device

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL...

A destructive device containing a thermite-type composition having a core burning configuration. The device comprises a housing having a top, a bottom, and a thermally insulated liner to maximize the thermal effectiveness of an ignition. The bottom has a circumferential skirt and defines one orifice therein for directing the expulsion of the thermite-type-composition upon ignition, the top has vents which together with the bottom orifice and skirt balance the escape of gas and prevent the device from moving during ignition.

(1) A core burning design with orifice/nozzle at the base directing the jet at the target.

(2) Balanced gas escape design, including a vented plug at the top, and an orifice and skirt at the bottom which distributes the forces so that the burning thermite jet does not move the container off target.

(3) Thermal insulated container design to maximize thermal effectiveness of the output.

Other types of thermite mixtures containing metals and the oxides of other metals other than iron oxide are known: aluminum/manganese oxide (4 Al+3 MnO.sub.2); aluminum/chromium oxide (2 Al+Cr.sub.2 O.sub.3) and others. Aluminum/iron oxide mixtures (8 Al+3 Fe.sub.3 O.sub.4) have proved to be the most effective incendiary composition for destruction of steel targets because superheated liquid products are formed by the reaction. These molten products affect a high rate of conductive heat transfer to the steel target and, therefore, cause destruction of the target. Any combination metal/metal oxide capable of high rates of conductive heat transfer can be used in the present invention.

A vented plug 30, made of graphite or other refractory material capable of withstanding the reaction temperature of the specific thermite selected, having a plurality of vent holes 32, fits onto the top of the insulation liner 16. The vented plug 30 acts as a baffle for the exit of molten product materials and also acts as a radiation shield and thus helps retain the heat produced. By designing destructive devices so that the diameters of vent holes 32 and a nozzle 18 are of different sizes, it is possible to release the molten products of reaction at a rate which balances gas escape and distributes the forces so that the burning thermitejet does not move the device off the target.

It is used in multicomponent thermite incendiary compositions, in which another oxidizer and binder are together included. THERMATE-TH3, a mixture of aluminum and iron oxide and other pyrotechnic additives, was found to be superior to aluminum and iron oxide alone and was adopted for use in incendiary hand grenades. Its composition by weight is aluminum/iron oxide 68.7%, barium nitrate 29.0%, sulfur 2.0% and binder 0.3%. The addition of barium nitrate increases the thermal effects, creates flame in burning and reduces the ignition temperature.

The combined design features yields jetting molten products rather than flowing molten mass to penetrate the metal target for optimum damage. The device does not require a large void volume which would make the device very large and the design also reduces the amount of payload.

A device with greater penetration capabilities is the "thermite Penetrator Device" of U.S. Pat. No. 4,216,721 herein incorporated by reference, which was designed to direct the flow of energy through an opening at the bottom of the containing vessel. However, it is still inefficient in that a great amount of its energy is being lost through its open top end. The open top not only reduces the energy available for penetration, but adds to the device's visible signature.

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Patent Number: 4,216,721
Filed: August 12, 1980

Assignee: The United Stated of America as represented by the Secretary of the Army (Washington, DC)

thermite penetrator device (U)

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL...

In a thermite penetrator device for destroying a metal target comprising a refractroy crucible containing a thermite mixture therewithin, said crucible having a plurality of metal discs disposed adjacent a bottom portion of said mixture and crucible, said discs providng a space therearound between said discs and crucible, said discs being devoid of any chemical reaction with said thermite mixture, a readily ignitable starter material atop said thermite mixture, an igniter cord contacting said starter material and an exit hole in said crucible below said discs for passing molten thermite reaction products therethrough,

Controlling the release from a conical ceramic crucible of molten thermite eaction products (generally, iron and alumina) to effect optimum penetration of metallic targets by said molten products through the use of metallic discs which are completely protected on their sides against the molten products, thus forcing these molten products to melt the discs sequentially from top to bottom, resulting in a delay of flow of the molten products from the conical crucible to thus permit the molten iron, heavier than the molten alumina, to substantially unimpededly transfer its heat to the metallic target, the molten iron being more efficient in melting metallic materials than the molten alumina.

Upon ignition of the above mixture, molten iron, having a melting point of approximately 2750.degree. F. and a density of about 7, and molten alumina, or aluminum oxide, having a melting point of approximately 3722.degree. F. and a density of about 4, will be formed. The peak temperature of the reaction will be in excess of 4000.degree. F. The reaction is caused to take place in a reaction vessel or ceramic crucible, suitably of fused silica, although any refractory ceramic material capable of withstanding the temperatures involved may be used.

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This is my favorite patent because it shows that thermite can be made into paste then could be daubed or painted on a column and an igniter can be pressed into the still moist paste. Dang I love this, it even uses photo flash cubes as igniters. This one also shows that Radio Frequency controlled igniters can be used.

Patent Number: 4,477,060
Filed: October 16, 1984

Underwater cutting tool

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL...

Excerpt:

Some of the wires are left in place to provide a sufficiently great area of contact with the thermite. This cavity is filled with thermite paste (thermite alcohol mixture). It is important that the paste cures well and fills the lance cavity in question densely packed.

The igniter (heater filament) is pushed in or pressed into the thermite paste as long as the latter is still moist. Subsequently the free lance end is sealed by a pressure-resistant seal.

In tests also conventional photoflashes which operate mechanically, of the type called magic cubes, have proved to be advantageous ignition means. In that even mechanical ignition is effected of snarled up magnesium wire disposed in a glass container or the like filled with oxygen, for example by an igniter filled with gunpowder, which is ignited by a mechanical stroke and which feeds a blast flame to said snarled up magnesium wire.

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This one shears of the ends of bolts. I like this one because the ignition device is acoustical. This also uses thermite as an igniter, so I guess that the reaction is a lot hotter than thermite.

Patent Number: 4,069,407
Filed: January 17, 1978

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=...

a plurality of pyrotechnic torch means in said housing each having a nozzle proximate said shackle pin and said mooring loop, said nozzles being oriented to direct high temperature non-explosive jets against one of said mooring elements in at least two places, the other of said mooring elements extending across the interval between said two places, and

Returning to the front end of plug adapter 86, two thermite igniters 114 and 116 are disposed in adjacent longitudinal bores, igniters 114 and 116 being contacted by igniter wires 118 and 120,

Torch ignition is actuated by an acoustic control system commanded from a remote location.

the acoustic transducer might be mounted exterior of the housing; an acoustic control system from another manufacturer might be employed; electromagnetic wave or low frequency radio wave signaling devices might be employed in lieu of an acoustic transponder system.

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Patent Number: 3,744,369
Filed: July 10, 1973

Assignee: The United States of America as represented by the Secretary of the Army (Washington, DC)

THERMITE CABLE CUTTER

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL...

Excerpt:

An apparatus and method for severing a steel cable comprising a housing hng an upper reservoir and a lower work piece holder component, a flow gate extending downward from the reservoir through the work piece holder, port means positioned at the bottom of the housing, whereby on the ignition of the thermite mixture in the reservoir component, the resultant molten mass contacts the steel cable positioned in the work piece holder for a short period of time, thereby severing the cable.

The present method is based on the well known thermite welding process. In the process, coarsely powdered aluminum and iron oxide are mixed, and ignited by a fuse of magnesium ribbon and barium peroxide. A violent reaction occurs resulting in a peak temperature of over 4000.degree.F. The reaction proceeds as follows:

2Al+ Fe.sub.2 O.sub.3 .fwdarw. Al.sub.2 O.sub.3 + 2Fe+185,000 calories

The thermite is suitable for utilization as a destructive agent becasue of its high temperature and the erosive action of the superheated molten iron and aluminum oxide.

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Patent Number: 4,069,407
Filed: January 17, 1978

Underwater cutting rod

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=...

Excerpt:

It is the further object of this invention to provide a cutting rod and system which is far superior to any previously used in the art. In addition, it is an object to provide a rod which is light-weight, readily adaptable to most standard rod holders, easy to handle and use, which develops an arc under any non-explosive atmosphere including water, and develops temperatures high enough to melt any known metal, mineral or combination of metals and minerals.

The classic thermite reaction consists of 8 moles of aluminum plus 3 moles of magnetic iron oxide. The reaction to completion produces 4 moles of aluminum oxide plus nine moles of molten iron. When ignited, this mixture produces an enormous quantity of heat, namely 758,000 calories per gram molecular weight. this heat is sufficient to raise the temperature of the region to 5,432.degree. F.

The rod of the present invention is completely consumed during the operation; thus, no waste product is developed which would cause environmental problems in the use of the device.

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Patent Number: 4,541,616
Filed: September 17, 1985

Thermal burning rod

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=...

General requirements for cutting metals, especially metals such as steel, certain ceramics, and concrete, under water, have led to the development of a series of exothermic burning rods primarily based upon various thermite reactions involving the combustion of oxides of iron in the presence of oxygen atmospheres.

The most recent developments in this type of thermite or exothermic burning rod may be seen in U.S. Pat. No. 4,069,1107 to Brower, which describes an elongated metallic rod suitable for the conduction of electricity having an insulating outer coating and having a plurality of interior elements running its length. With one exception, the elements are primarily of an iron composition. The exception is that at least one element, constructed of metal from the metallic group comprising aluminum, magnesium, titanium, or their alloys is included so as to provide the aluminum, iron, and oxygen mixture required for the classic thermite reaction. The rods are gripped in a pressure tight collect chuck . . .

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Patent Number: 4,034,567
Filed: July 12, 1977

Self-drilling thermal bolt

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL...

The self-drilling bolt according to the invention may be anchored in widely differing types of material: among these there may be mentioned mineral materials such as rock or stone, refractory materials, asphalt, concrete, reinforced concrete, metals in general, and in particular steels. The anchorage of such a bolt in iron-based materials is especially advantageous since the iron, which is itself present in the material, will during drilling provide some of the necessary energy for melting the latter.

The self-drilling thermal bolt which has been described can be used in many fields: civil engineering work, mining work, the construction industry and under-water work for example.

Other materials which have similar properties and which may also be used are for example ferro-manganese compounds, mixtures of silica and metallic powders, mixtures of the thermite type, or even cast iron.

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Patent Number: 4,799,829
Filed: January 24, 1989

Method and apparatus for removing submerged platforms.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL...

Excerpt:

“The cutting of the piling is performed by a series of tubes radially deployed in the cutter on a common plane. Each tube is filled with what is, in essence, a solid fuel similar to thermite or magnesium. Thus, the cut is performed through the use of a series of solid fuel torches. The preferred solid fuel is Pyronol.RTM.. Pyronol.RTM. is manufactured by Goex, Inc. and the material itself is the subject of U.S. Pat. No. 3,695,951. Pyronol.RTM., once ignited, will attain temperatures between six and twelve thousand degrees Fahrenheit. These temperatures are sufficient to burn through steel and concrete.”

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This is used for concrete, but reaches the needed temperature.

Patent Number: 5,532,449
Filed: August 29, 1994

Assignee: Kabushiki Kaisha Komatsu Seisakusho (Tokyo, JP)

Using plasma ARC and thermite to demolish concrete

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL...

Excerpt:

thermite powder T is basically a mixture of finely-divided metallic aluminum and ferric oxide that, when ignited, produces extremely high temperatures as the result of the union of the aluminum with the oxygen of the oxide. The thermite reaction on the surface of a concrete structure is so intensive that it easily melts concrete and rock with a melting point in the range of about 1200 to about 2500.degree.

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Here’s a patent for another igniter:

Patent Number: 3,988,989
Filed: November 2, 1976

Assignee: The United States of America as represented by the Secretary of the Navy (Washington, DC)

High-pressure, electrically initiated explosive igniter

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL...

The central area of the booster head 36 contains a material such as thermite, for example, for igniting the main charge. Such a material may, or may not, be necessary.

Some of the wires are left in place to provide a sufficiently great area of contact with the thermite. This cavity is filled with thermite paste (thermite alcohol mixture). It is important that the paste cures well and fills the lance cavity in question densely packed.

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Another remote ignition device.

Patent Number: 4,371,771
Filed: February 1, 1983

Assignee: The United States of America as represented by the Secretary of the Army (Washington, DC)

Cutting torch and method

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL...

For munition demilitarization the preferred initiator is an electric match, shown in FIG. 3. An electric match permits a remote activation, e.g., 750 meters away, and it is inexpensive.

The devices and methods, shown in U.S. Pat. Nos. 4,069,407 and 4,182,947 by Jerome S. Brower issued on Jan. 17, 1978 and Jan. 8, 1980 utilize the thermite reaction consisting of 8 moles of aluminum plus three moles of iron oxide to produce 4 moles of aluminum oxide plus nine moles of molten iron. The reaction is extremely exothermic, releasing 758,000 calories per gram molecular weight.

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Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of fear, kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor, with the cry of grave national emergency. Always there has been some terrible evil at home or some monstrous foreign power that was going to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it. ~ General Douglas MacArthur

We always obeyed the law. Isn't that what you do in America? Even if you don't agree with a law personally, you still obey it. Otherwise life would be chaos. ~ Gertrude Scholtz-Klink, explaining Nazi policy

Authoritarian government required to speak, is silent. Representative government required to speak, lies with impunity. ~ Napoleon

The target suffered a terminal illness before a firing squad in Baghdad. ~ CIA officer at US Senate hearing on 1963 overthrow of Iraqi Prime Minister Kassem

Form no covetous desire, so that the demon of greediness may not deceive thee, and the treasure of the world may not be tasteless to thee. ~ Zoroaster

I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own; a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms… ~ Albert Einstein, obituary

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www.dreamslaughter.com

Thanks

But, it is important to note that a patent does not mean all that much. While you do indeed illustrate that there are various patents on file proposing various thermite delivery systems, it would be important to show examples of workable systems that demonstrably illustrate that the technology is viable. A patent is no guarantee of practicality.

I suggest that the key questions still revolve around how such a system could be effectively deployed to deliver thermite to VERTICAL columns.

The other issue is the time constraints. Melting through a steel column with thermite - essentially meting clean through a massive column - would be a very SLOW process. This does not seem to match the data that we have - which is that rapid fire explosions IMMEDIATELY precipitated a collapse.

Another question is the weight ratio of thermite necessary to cut through these columns. Quite a LARGE quantity would be necessary to cut through even ONE column. I am unsure how to reconcile this anomoly.

But lastly, why would such a speculative technology be used? What are the advantages of using a long-burning chemical reaction to MELT through steel columns, leaving behind quite a lot of evidence, as opposed to simply using available controlled demolition technology? C4 plastic explosives is a very efficient method of bringing buildings down.

To my knowledge there are no examples of thermite technology EVER being used to bring down buildings. Again - melting through vertical steel colums would be a very slow process.

Can you provide us with some extimates regarding hos long it would take to melt through a column with thermite - and how efficient this would be in the context of a controlled demolition?

While i appreciate your post illustrating various thermite patents, but finding examples of workable technology in the world of construction and demolitions where thermite has been used to cut vertical columns is not something I have been able to find.

Thanks

This was in response to your statement “But, apparently there does not even exist a patent for the delivery of thermate to vertical columns.” If your red the above, most of them explicitly state that they are for use in vertical applications.

The first patent I listed expressly details that it can be used for vertical applications.

If you read the above patents, it clearly details process that enhance the speed, creating back pressure, and directed charges that creates a jet flow into the vertical column. Not to mention Pyronol.RTM which burns at 12,000 degrees F. This is stark evidence that accelerated thermite/thermate/Pyronol.RTM are very possible. Of course the actual devices constructed using most of these inventions would be held as proprietary information. You could try to go ask the assignees about it, but sigh, most of the assignees are DOD. Give them a call and see if you can get them to reveal what they have.

No, you would not need a large quantity. Pyronol.RTM is almost five times more powerful than normal thermite, and this is incendiary material that is in the public record. Can you imagine that maybe there are even more powerful incendiary composites unknown to the general public. I’m sure you would say ‘yes’.

Again, using advances materials like Pyronol.RTM, back pressure, directed construction, and multi chamber release to produce JETS of reactant material; the reaction would be very fast. This is all completely documented in the above patents. The chemical markers of C4 are very obvious. The traces of thermite/thermate reactions is hard to see, and covered up by the aluminum airplane frame, the cladding, the drywall and most recently noted acid rain. These types of reactions would be the obvious choice as they evidence would be questionable as to their use.

I don’t know if these devices have been used for building demolition, my guess is that these are more expensive than conventional devices and the market would dictate that conventional explosives would be used commercially. In paten number 4,799,829, the device is used to bring down submerged platforms. It’s underwater, but it definitely shows cutting vertical members, just under water. Using a hybrid of these devices would be a very fast reaction. Again, you’ll have to go to The United States of America as represented by the Secretary of the Army (Washington, DC) to see what the military has in their stockpile that they use to cut underwater vertical columns.

In this article related to WWII, it states, “Covert operations that conceal the identity of, or permit plausible denial by, perpetrators moreover may be politically prudent, especially in "peacetime." Demolition specialists able to infiltrate clandestinely, position charges precisely, then slip away sometimes prove invaluable under combat conditions, because they impose disproportionately heavy security burdens on defenders.” And “Brittle cast iron breaks easily, but acetylene torches or thermite may be needed to slice nickel-molybdenum steel, which strongly resists conventional explosives.” And “Professionals whose mission is to stop road and river traffic temporarily cut supports at one end of truss bridges so affected spans fall in the water; they cut trusses at midspan to make bridges buckle if long-lasting destruction is the intent.”

So the US military was using thermite to take down bridges over FIFTY years ago. Please consider that the technology has advances considerably in the last 50 years.

http://www.ndu.edu/inss/books/Books%20-%201998/Military%20Geography%20Ma....

I couldn’t access this article directly, but the Google blurb states “RDT&E BUDGET ITEM JUSTIFICATION SHEET (R-2 Exhibit) ... thermite-like materials and provide twice the total energy of high explosives. ... www.dod.mil/comptroller/defbudget/fy2003/budget_justification/pdfs/rdtan...
So another reason that would be that the thermite provides twice the total energy of high explosives.

In this article:

http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/bm~doc/portable-study-guide-vers-3...

It states:

AN-M14 TH3 Incendary:

Filler – 26.5 ounces of thermate (TH3) mixture

Capibilities – can be thrown 25 meters by average soldier. A portion of the thermate mixture is converted into moltant iron, which burns at 4,000 degrees F. It will . . . . The thermate filler of the AN-M14 granade burns for 40 seconds and can burn through a ½ inch homogenous steel plate.” And this is without directed construction, advanced materials or back pressure to form cutting jets.

While I appreciate your healthy skepticism, I am astounded. Any reasonable person would quickly and gladly say, ‘Okay, there are a lot of patents that describe using thermite to bring down vertical structures, Okay, they have been doing it for over fifty years with much cruder technology. Okay, thermate reactions can easily be fast using back pressure, shaped charge design and advanced material.

My advice for you is start searching for WWII records of thermite used to bring down bridges. I found references quickly. Fifty year old technology bringing down vertical structures.

I hope that this can close this part of the discussion and we can move on to how we can get access to the WTC rubble where there is ample evidence to prove or disprove the WTC demolition theory.

Thank for for taking the time to dig up this interesting information! Your points regarding the probable greater expense of a thermate demolition AND the evidence that would be left behind with conventional explosives are particularly important.

Clearly, the Towers were not conventional controlled demolitions. They were designed as acts of theater, and the name of the show was "planes crash into buildings and make them fall down." Your research strongly suggests that the technology is out there to pull off demolitions that had to be unconventional in order to "look right" in that context.

Although at the moment I am not finding anything on the dstruction of vertical columns in bridges in WW2.

Maybe you can point me in the right direction.

But, another interesting questions:

Since Thermite effectively MELTS through steel, how do you explain the widespread pulverizing of the contents of the building - and the flinging of heavy steel columns thousands of yards.

Does thermite melt through columns or blow things up? Does thermite use explosive force? or a chemical reaction to melt?

John? huh?

This guy is making a point of spelling expertise "expertize" which is what John Albanese was doing over in another thread, when he went "undercover" as "Anonymous" to check and see whether we were all posting appropriately at 911blogger (and we weren't! oh, the humanity!) (Someone noticed that both John Albanese and this Anonymous were spelling expertise with a "z" and when confronted, he acknowledged he was Anonymous.)

Anyway, he's also playing discourse cop over here, so it's either John Albanese or a perceptive troll who picked up on that whole thing and is using it to tweak people.

Move along, everyone.

Says anonymous.

Hey Casseia, I'm sorry if by outing him I've given an opening for disruptors to jump on the mispelling bandwagon. What bugs me most is this self-righteousness where someone (kof kof) keeps harping on the tone and content of our discussions as being a turn off to newcomers, etc

I for one think that this forum is pretty exceptional in the way that so many people come together to pursue a cause without it all breaking down into unreadable back and forth smears. That makes it a target for peo0ple who like to stir up trouble, and we've learned the types of trouble that are possible. People post idiotic "theories" and when called on their BS appeal to fairness as if the truth movement were not about truth but about wild speculation as our critics claim.

When we refuse to be put in that bind by requiring that people put up or shut up, they whine about censorship (as if it was so hard to make the greyed out posts appear!) Notice how after the drop off in noplane comments we now have a slew of spacebeeam comments to deal with? What will Judy Jetson and Morgan Reynolds Wrap's next discovery be? he asks with a shudder. Whatever it is I bet it will gain "currency" just as the spacebeam theory makes a quiet exit.

My reaction to being treated like an idiot is not so much to be offended (do any of us still remember what it feels like to be offended after the interminable parade of disgust that passes for the current status quo? It just doesn't get much more offensive than Abu Ghraib, does it?) No, I'm not offended--I'm disturbed and encouraged at the same time.

Disturbed to think that yes, there may be people who will fall for some of these gimmicks, if only out of reluctance to believe that people who seemed like rays of hope (why Uncle Fetzer, why??) could actually be such craven bastards, and encouraged by the depths to which the perps' apologists have sunk--such debasement of themselves can only mean desperation before our slow but steady success at raising awareness.

Remember everyone, the last place we're going to hear the truth spoken is on Fox. We will much sooner hear it on the streets, see it in mass protests, and experience it in a way none of us can predict now. Then the MSM will follow, reluctantly, with some cockamamie bull about how they were deceived. Everyone will claim to have been decieved at that point.

There is a lot to be said for positive thinking--and just as much to be said for eternal vigilance. Here's a thought--the next time someone tries to goad any of us into fruitless arguing by playing games, let's start a new thread about something else--something that hasn't yet been discussed but should be. Let's use every opportunity to become stronger, more eefective, more focused.

Let's start to be what we want to see. Let's start behaving like the winners we are. We have reason to be proud, confident, and more determined than ever. Soon we will also have reason to rejoice, and boy is that going to be sweet. Eyes on the prize. You don't look back when you're rushing towards the end zone, and the last thing on your mind should be your defeated opponent falling farther and farther behind in his pursuit.

____

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force