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9/11 Inside Job: All Evidence, No Theories

This is a great piece from Brian over at 911TrutheSeekers.org which deserves to be read on Sunday afternoon or evening with time and a relaxed state of mind to actually focus on the pile of evidence which is demanding an independent investigation be opened. The list below is a powerhouse of information and leads for the inquiring mind and concerned citizen.

9/11 INSIDE JOB: ALL EVIDENCE, NO THEORIES!

1. Where is the plane that crashed into the Pentagon? Where are the wings, the tail, the two 9-foot Rolls Royce steel engines, the fuselage, etc? How does a 757 with a wingspan of 125 feet fit into a 16 by 20 foot initial impact hole? Why were only five photos of "something" hitting the Pentagon released that certainly didn’t look like a 757? Why did the FBI confiscate all other videos and photos of the Pentagon crash? Why didn’t any of the Pentagon’s five antiaircraft batteries shoot the plane down? One large piece of evidence that was found was covered in blue tarp and hauled away into obscurity! They did find a 3-foot engine, which is coincidentally the same size as the Global Hawk’s engine. Also, many eyewitnesses saw a "plane that appeared to hold 8-12 people" hit the building.

2. Why the apparent "STAND DOWN" by the FAA, NORAD, and NMCC on 9/11? NORAD had routinely intercepted planes 67 times earlier that year within 20 minutes each time and NEVER had a failure like they did on 9/11, nor after 9/11. On June 1, 2001, new instructions issued by the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff reassigned aircraft interception authority to Rumsfeld, contradicting normal procedures. When either radar and cockpit contact is blocked, when transponders are turned off, or when planes deviate from their flight plan, standard military procedure is to scramble fighter jets immediately in order to regain contact with the pilot. According to Richard Meyers (then Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff) and NORAD spokesman Mike Snyder, NORAD did NOTHING (for over an hour) until AFTER the Pentagon was hit! When they finally did, they scrambled F-16’s from Langley Air Force Base 120 miles from the Pentagon, NOT Andrews AFB 12 miles away. To top off this peculiar event, the F-16’s conveniently traveled at 400 MPH, well under their 1500 MPH capacity, and they of course didn’t make it in time to the Pentagon. Because this was a clear violation of standard operating procedures, where are the reprimands? (Also see #24) Two months prior to 9/11, the FAA, FEMA, NORAD, DOD, and the White House were engaged in at least 35 drills including a series of elaborate War Games, anti-terror drills and hijack Field Training Exercises (FTX). They had 5 drills on the very morning of 9/11 – Operation Northern Vigilance, Biowarfare Exercise Triopod II, Operation Vigilant Guardian, Operation Northern Guardian, and Operation Vigilant Warrior. One drill covering New York City, involved hijacked planes used as missiles to attack prominent buildings! MASCAL, a mock terrorist exercise, was held in the Secretaries of Defense conference room on October 24-26, 2000. This exercise required emergency response teams, members of the defense protective services, and U.S. government officials to conduct emergency simulations in preparation for possible attacks on the Pentagon headquarters at the hands of incoming passenger planes.

3. Heat from burning jet fuel was reportedly the sole cause of the WTC collapses. What a ludicrous theory! 1. Steel melts at 2750°F. 2. The steel in the Towers was certified by Underwriters Laboratories Inc. to withstand 2000°F for 6 hours! 3. Jet fuel produces a maximum temperature of 1800°F in a special combustion chamber. Theories that claim the steel melted from the jet fuel fire violate the laws of physics! Also, steel frame buildings have NEVER collapsed due to fires! Steel frame buildings cannot collapse at free-fall speed, symmetrically, straight down into a relatively small pile of rubble due to fire. That’s a fact.
WTC maintenance workers confirm massive explosions in the sub-basement area that closely coincided with the aircraft impacts on the upper floors. FDNY rescuers also confirm coordinated explosions "like demolition charges" in the North Tower, as they escaped. The media conveniently failed to show these witnesses. According to civil engineering professor Hyman Brown, the WTC’s construction manager, WTC 1 and 2 were designed to survive an impact and resulting fires from a collision by the largest commercial aircraft at the time, a Boeing 707, carrying 23,000 gallons of fuel. He also stated the towers "could have easily withstood multiple airplane crashes". Another feature that would be expected only if explosives were used to slice the steel columns would be molten steel, and its existence at the WTC site was indeed reported by several witnesses, including the two main figures involved in the clean up, Peter Tully, president of Tully Construction, and Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolition, Inc. Tully said that he saw pools of "literally molten steel" at the site. Loizeaux said that several weeks after 9/11, when the rubble was being removed, "hot spots of molten steel" were found "at the bottoms of the elevator shafts of the main towers, down seven basement levels". Hot spots were recorded up to 1377°F 5 DAYS AFTER 9/11! To top off this peculiar event, the steel structures and columns were quickly removed from the site (before any examination and to the objection of fire safety officials, firefighters, and victims’ families) and shipped to China and India to be recycled! (The real cause of the collapses was a highly sophisticated controlled demolition!)

4. How did WTC 7 collapse when no plane hit it? The collapse of Building 7 was later admitted to be a demolition by owner Larry Silverstein on a PBS interview in Sept. 2002. In a phone call with the FDNY chief regarding building 7, he said "We've had such terrible loss of life; maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it. And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse" referring to the demolition of building 7. Larry later explains that "pull it" meant to evacuate firefighters, but there were no firefighters in the building at that time! Also, the FDNY is not equipped or trained to "pull" Building 7 in a controlled demolition as Larry stated. Nor can any building be prepared for such a well-designed demolition in the few minutes after Larry asked to "pull it". Coincidentally, Silverstein assumed a 99-year lease on the WTC Towers on July 24, just six weeks before Sept. 11. After the attacks, Larry boldly asserted he was entitled to twice the insurance policy value because "The two hijacked airliners that struck the 110-story twin towers Sept. 11 were separate ‘occurrences’ for insurance purposes, entitling him to collect twice on $3.6 billion collective worth of the policies, or $7.2 billion." (Do you think he wanted building 7 to collapse? The official FEMA report on WTC 7 concludes "The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this time." Nice investigation there!)

5. Don’t believe that our government is capable or that ruthless to murder Americans to justify a war in Iraq? Read about "Operation Northwoods", which shows plans that Lyman Lemnitzer and the Joint Chiefs of Staff drew up in 1962 and approved for what may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government. They proposed launching a secret and bloody war of terrorism against their own country in order to trick the American public into supporting an ill-conceived war they intended to launch against Cuba. The plan called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; a commercial plane full of college students to be shot down; a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. They even contemplated causing U.S. military casualties, writing: "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," and, "casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation." People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing they needed to launch their war.

6. Why the strange pattern of debris from Flight 93? Where is the plane? Where are the bodies?
Wally Miller, Sumerset County coroner stated, "I stopped being coroner after about 20 minutes because there were no bodies there."
Ohio Mayor Michael White reported "A Boeing 767 out of Boston made an emergency landing Tuesday at Cleveland Hopkins International Airport due to concerns that it may have a bomb aboard. The plane had been moved to a secure area of the airport, and was evacuated. United verified the plane as Flight 93, but was deeply concerned about another jetliner in the vicinity, Flight 175." The government claims the plane exploded on impact yet a one-ton section of the engine was found over a mile away and other light debris was found scattered over eight miles away! Several witnesses heard "a loud bang" just before the plane began to drop and others saw a small military type plane flying around shortly before UA93 crashed. Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz said, "The Air Force was tracking the hijacked plane that crashed in Pennsylvania and had been in position to bring it down if necessary." The official theory says Flight 93 crashed at 10:03, but seismic analysis shows 10:06. Is that why there is 3 minutes missing from the CVR and the FBI is still hiding the analysis of the FDR & the air traffic control tape from that flight?
How did passengers on flight 93 make cell phone calls while in flight? Regular cell phones don't work on commercial airliners flying at normal altitudes. Don’t believe these calls could’ve been staged? On February 1, 1999, a new voice morphing technology was introduced to Gen. Carl Steiner (former Commander-in-chief, US Special Operations Command) at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico. By taking a 10-minute digital recording of Steiner’s voice, scientist George Papcun was able to clone his speech patterns and develop an accurate facsimile so exact, it even fooled Steiner! He was so impressed, he asked for a copy of the tape.

7. The invasion of Iraq was actually planned back in 1992 (during Bush I) by Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Perle, and Lewis Libby in their "Defense Planning Guidance". They later audaciously proposed a basic blueprint for U.S. world domination in PNAC’s "Rebuilding America’s Defenses". PNAC’s Sept. 2000 Statement of Principles - which states "the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event, like a new Pearl Harbor" - would consequently advance their policies, i.e. justify wars and "regime changes". When they got back into power in 2001 they had an opportunity to enact their plan. The problem was that they needed a catalyst, an event that would justify these invasions. Their operational plans were then drawn up in June 2001, and 9/11 was treated as a Pearl Harbor pretext. Their original basis for war was to unseat the Taliban. They were claiming that the primary reason for these hostilities would be the Taliban's unwillingness to cooperate with UN inspectors, a pretext that would have not gone over well. They received a better pretext for attacking with the 9/11 attacks. Of course what they really wanted was to aggressively expand U.S. (globalist) influence throughout the region, and eventually secure a pipeline through Afghanistan for the benefit of UNOCAL and other big globalist oil companies.
Another "smoking gun" is the Downing Street memo, which contains an overview of a secret July 23, 2002 meeting where British intelligence officials visited Washington informing Prime Minister Tony Blair that war was nearly inevitable with Iraq.

8. Usually in high crimes, investigators follow the money trail to find the perpetrator. Not in this case of never-ending coincidences and anomalies. On September 10, ISI agent Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh made a wire transfer of $100,000 to Mohamed Atta's bank account in Florida at the instruction of General Mahmoud Ahmad, the Director of the ISI. "Money man" General Ahmad was in Washington on 9/11, arriving on Sept. 4. He first met with CIA Director George Tenet until Sept. 9, and then met with officials in the Pentagon, the NSC, and the State Department on Sept. 13. The chairmen of the House and Senate Intelligence committees Porter Goss and Bob Graham had breakfast with General Ahmad on Capitol Hill the very morning of Sept. 11! (Can you say conflict of interest?!) Due to pressure from the Bush administration, General Ahmad was subsequently forced to resign on October 8, 2001, effectively blocking any further investigation into the matter. (How convenient!)

9. What ever happened to the Anthrax sent by terrorists? The letters contained a specific type of high quality mil-spec weaponized Anthrax made only by a United States military lab at USAMRIID Fort Detrick, Maryland. When the FBI discovered that the end of the hunt for the sender of the Anthrax letters was not Dr. Assaad the Egyptian, but Dr. Zack, who is Jewish, both the FBI and the media stopped making any public comments on the case! The targets of the anthrax attacks were the Senators who opposed the Patriot Act. (Coincidentally, since Nov. 2001, over 40 microbiologists have died under suspicious circumstances, most specializing in vaccines and bio-weapons research – very suspicious.)
And why was Dick Cheney’s staff ordered to take the antibiotic Cipro weeks before the first anthrax attacks began?

10. Why Did the Bush Administration Endorse a Forgery about Iraq’s Nuclear Program? On September 24, 2002, George Tenet, Director of Central Intelligence, stated to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that the C.I.A. had recently received "intelligence" showing that, between 1999 and 2001, Iraq had attempted to buy five hundred tons of uranium oxide from Niger. Bush even mentioned this in his State of the Union Message, on January 28, 2003. However, on March 7th 2003, Mohamed ElBaradei, the Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency, in Vienna, told the U.N. Security Council that the documents involving the Niger-Iraq uranium sale were fakes. One senior I.A.E.A. official went further. He told me, "These documents are so bad that I cannot imagine that they came from a serious intelligence agency. It depresses me, given the low quality of the documents, that it was not stopped. At the level it reached, I would have expected more checking." Another official said that the I.A.E.A. has not been able to determine who actually prepared the documents. "It could be someone who intercepted faxes in Israel. We don’t know. Somebody got old letterheads and signatures, and cut and pasted."

11. Where are the flight recorders (black boxes)? The FBI admits the recorders for flights 77 and 93 were found, but were "too damaged to provide any record". As for the WTC planes, two N.Y. City firefighters, Mike Bellone and Nicholas De Masi, claimed that they had found three of these four boxes, but Federal agents took them and told the two men not to mention having found them. Another source from the NTSB also says these boxes "were in fact recovered and were analyzed by the NTSB, but you’d have to get the official word from the FBI as to where they are". (Nice cover-up FBI)

12. Did you know that the 9/11 Commission Executive Director Phillip Zelikow had conflicts of interest with the Bush Administration? Shortly after 9/11 he was on the President’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board up until he became executive director. He also co-authored a book with Condoleezza Rice about their experiences in the first Bush White House. Chairman Thomas Kean was director of oil giant Amerada Hess; had business ties to Saudi Khalid bin Mahfouz; co-chairman of Homeland Security Project; and CFR member.
Furthermore, an official investigation of the attacks cannot be taken seriously when it took 14 months to authorize it, was then underfunded and obstructed, was then staffed only by government insiders who failed to ask hundreds of questions posed by victims’ families and excluded important information provided by whistleblowers, the few documents they were given had to be filtered through the White House for approval, based its whole premise on proving the "official theory", and allowed the FAA timeline to be changed!

13. Why was the budget for the 9/11 Commission investigation initially just $3 million? (Later raised to $15 million) Compare that to the commission budgets for the Space Shuttle Columbia crash and Clinton’s Whitewater scandal which were both given $50 million!
Andy why did the Bush Administration wait 411 days to form the 9/11 investigation commission? Compare that to just 6 days for the Titanic, 7 days for JFK, 7 days for the Challenger tragedy, and 9 days for Pearl Harbor. And to top this off, the commission only released 25% of the 11,000 documents requested! (Talk about dragging their feet!)

14. On December 4, 2001 in a Town Hall Meeting in Orange County, President Bush met with displaced workers. Answering Jordan’s question of ‘How did you feel when you heard about the terrorist attack?’ he said "I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower - the TV was obviously on." How did Bush see the first plane crash on live T.V. when it wasn’t shown anywhere until September 12? (My guess is he saw it on his closed circuit live camera feed that was already set up to view their operation)

15. Why did put option purchases on United Airlines and American Airlines stock rise above six times the normal levels in the days preceding 9/11? Abundant evidence shows that a number of transactions in financial markets indicated specific (criminal) foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks. Between September 6 and 7, the Chicago Board Options Exchange saw purchases of 4,744 put options on UA, but only 396 call options. On September 10, 4,516 put options on AA were bought, compared to only 748 call options. On September 10, the volume of trading in AMR put option contracts increased to 60 times the daily average and almost five times the total of all $30 put options traded before September 10.
In the case of at least one of these trades -- which has left a $2.5 million prize unclaimed -- the firm used to place the "put options" on United Airlines stock was, until 1998, managed by A.B. "Buzzy" Krongard who is now Executive Director of the CIA. (You can’t purchase stock, futures, mutual funds or put options without providing your identity! The FBI, CIA and SEC know who made these purchases. Why aren’t they telling anyone else!?)

16. Why were the Bin Laden and Saud families (142 people total) permitted by the FBI and the White House to fly out of the U.S. on private jets on September 13th when all other private flights were still grounded by the FAA? In June of 2004, Tampa Bay International airport verified that this flight indeed took place. And Why did Bush stop all investigations into the Bin Laden family before 9/11? The FBI documents "199-I" (indicating a national security case) show that the FBI was pulled off the trail of Abdullah and Omar bin Laden in 1996 – and reopened Sept.19, 2001, eight days after 9/11.

17. How did they find Mohammed Atta’s and Satam al-Sugami’s passport which magically survived – unscathed – the plane crash, explosion, fire, over 200,000 tons of steel and 425,000 cubic yards of concrete totaling 1.2 million tons of rubble? Yet they can't locate the flight recorders from either plane? And who "found" them and at what time did they "find" these? This is the real outrageous conspiracy theory! (I have an idea, why doesn't Boeing design a new data recorder manufactured from the same indestructible material used to produce magical Saudi passports?)

18. Why are none of the hijackers’ names on the official UA and AA airline passenger lists? In fact, there are no Arabic names whatsoever! And how are 6 (of 19) hijackers still alive and well! The Egyptian lawyer Muhammad Atta, father of engineer Muhammad al-Ameer Atta, denied his son's involvement in these operations. In a statement to the London- based al-Sharq al-Awsat daily, Muhammad explained that his son phoned him after the attacks and did not talk about the 9/11 incidents. He expressed his conviction that his son’s identity was kidnapped and believes the Israeli Mossad murdered him a day later.

19. You may ask how and when the bombs were planted in the towers. There were plenty of opportunities to plant bombs with low risk of detection. Here are a few examples:
• Ben Fountain, a 42 year old financial analyst who worked in the South Tower, said the weeks before 9/11 there were numerous unanswered and unusual drills where sections of both the Twin Towers and WTC 7 were evacuated for "security reasons".
• Bomb-sniffing dogs were inexplicably removed from the Twin Towers five days before 9/11
• Scott Forbes, working for Fiduciary Trust in the 97th floor of the South Tower, reported that there was a 36 hour "power down" in the upper half of the South Tower on September 8–9 to complete a "cabling upgrade," where security systems consequently were shut down and many workers ran around busily doing things unobserved. They were informed by Port Authority three weeks prior to this.
Yet another coincidence, a Bush-linked company, Stratesec, handled security for three clients that figured prominently in the attack - United Airlines; Dulles International Airport where AA FL 77 was hijacked; and the World Trade Center itself. The President’s brother, Marvin P. Bush, and his cousin, Wirt D. Walker III, were principals in Stratesec, with Walker acting as CEO from 1999 until January 2002 and Marvin reportedly in New York on 9/11.

20. Why were General Richard Myers of the Joint Chief of Staff and Senator Max Cleland in a meeting on September 11th, until after the Pentagon was struck, completely unaware of the attacks? Why did General Montague Winfield, the Director of the NMCC or "war room" located in the Pentagon, request on September 10th that someone stand in for him in the "war room" on September 11th, between 8:30am and 10:30am?

21. On Wednesday September 12th, 2001, Tom Kenney, a spokesman for FEMA’s "National Urban Search and Rescue Team" during an interview on national TV with CBS News anchor Dan Rather, let slip a frightening truth. Mr. Kennedy told Dan Rather, "We were one of the first teams that was deployed to support the City of New York in this disaster. We arrived on late Monday night, September 10th, and went right into action on Tuesday morning", September 11th. This was validated by former NY Mayor, Rudy Giuliani when he testified to the 9-11 Commission during the May 18-19, 2004 hearings in NY that FEMA was in fact there the day before for a Project "TRIPOD II" terror drill that was scheduled for 9/12! (What a coincidence!) Yet FEMA denies all of this!

22. Mayor Giuliani in an interview with Peter Jennings on ABC News stated: "We were operating out of there [the Emergency Command Center on the 23rd floor of WTC-7] when we were told that the World Trade Center was gonna collapse, and it did collapse before we could get out of the building." What a remarkable statement. There was no publicly available reason to believe that the towers were going to collapse. After all, steel-frame high-rise buildings had never before collapsed because of fire. Yet Giuliani’s statement suggests that he somehow knew - he says he was told by someone - that the towers were going to collapse. (Who told him the towers were about to collapse? How could anyone have known this in advance unless it was a planned demolition?)

23. On October 26, 2001 George Bush signed the misnamed USA PATRIOT Act, which was proposed just five days after 9/11! Just six weeks later this bill was passed! It is IMPOSSIBLE for a bill to be conceived, written, debated, and passed this quickly. You see, they had already written the bill BEFORE 9-11, and needed this disaster to justify its passage. In addition, testimony by Rep. Ron Paul revealed that most members of Congress were compelled to vote for the bill without even reading it. This was a vote to eliminate the Constitutional Bill of Rights, which has defined American freedom for 200 years, and it was accomplished when legislators voted for the bill without even reading it!

24. Did you know that initially the military reported on 9/11 that no fighters were sent up to intercept the hijacked planes until after the Pentagon was hit? Later the same week, the military put out a second story, saying that it had sent up fighters but because the FAA had been late in notifying it about the hijackings, the fighters arrived too late. The 9/11 Commission also reported a third version that the FAA gave the military insufficient warning of the first hijacked airline and no warning of the other hijackings until after they had crashed. (Why did the military change their story three times?)

25. Did you know the District of Columbia Air National Guard website Mission statement was significantly changed immediately after 9/11? The DCANG mission BEFORE 9/11 read:
"To provide combat units in the highest possible state of readiness. We will support the Air Force and other DOD agencies. We will provide operational support to our local communities whenever possible."
The DCANG mission statement AFTER 9/11 reads:
"Capital Guardians, patriotic Americans, supporting and defending the United States of America and the Nation's Capital when directed by the President in order to assure the survival and success of liberty."
The post 9/11 mission now has to be directed by the President in order to do anything. (What a peculiar and coincidental change!?)

26. Did you know that the U.S. financed, armed, and trained Al Qaeda? After Russian troops invaded Afghanistan in 1979, the CIA financed (with billions of dollars), armed, and trained bin Laden and thousands of other Mujahideen rebels. (Reagan called them "freedom fighters") The name "al-Qaeda" as an organization was first used in early 2001, when the U.S. government decided to prosecute Bin Laden in his absence (for the Aug ‘98 bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania that killed 224 people) and had to use anti-Mafia laws that required the existence of a named criminal organization.

27. What about the President’s odd behavior at the elementary school? After hearing about the second plane attack, President Bush sat down with a classroom of second-graders and began a 20-minute pre-planned photo op. Bush's behavior is made even more astounding by the fact that his Secret Service would have had to assume that he was one of the intended targets. One Secret Service agent, seeing the television coverage of the crash of the second airliner into the WTC, reportedly said: "We're out of here." He was obviously overruled. Why wasn’t he immediately whisked out and protected? The terrorists could have targeted the President along with the 200+ people at the school? The Secret Service breached all standard procedures and allowed President Bush to remain at a highly publicized location for 25 minutes after it was known that the nation was under attack!

28. Did you know that there is a remarkable ‘signature" of the 9/11 attacks? They occurred exactly 11 years to the day after President George Bush Senior gave a major address to Congress entitled, "Toward a New World Order". That address was on SEPTEMBER 11, 1990. Precisely 11 years to the day later, American Airlines Flight 11 started the attacks of 9-11-2001 when it slammed into the north tower of the World Trade Center. The towers, of course, symbolized a huge 11 over the skies of New York. The Pentagon was modeled after the satanic symbol of the pentagram. Another fact about the Pentagon is that its ground-breaking ceremony, and beginning of construction, took place on SEPTEMBER 11th 1941. Of course, 911 has been the emergency phone number in the U.S. since the 1970's. What better way to start an era of a perpetual war, and a perpetual state of emergency, than using a date that was already numerically etched into the minds of people as a number associated with "EMERGENCY"? Numerology and symbolism are very important to the occult, to which many of our leaders belong. And their main goal is a "New World Order", with them in charge. Occultists believe the Number ‘11’ is an important number of the coming Antichrist. God assigns the number ‘11’ to the Antichrist in Daniel 7:7-8.

These are just a few of the hundreds of unanswered questions that the Bush administration doesn’t want you to know. If you simply study the facts, you will see that the official incompetence theory is the real "outrageous theory".
What’s it all for? Power and Money. The truth of 9/11 is difficult for most people to swallow because it takes them down roads they don’t want to go. I’m not paving the road to tyranny; I’m just exposing it! The more you research 9/11, the more you will find the hand of intelligence involved at every single step of this elaborate cover-up.
This truth needs to be exposed before their next attack aimed at furthering their agenda. Knowing the truth will make sense of the chaos America is going through like the lies we’ve been told about the Saddam-9/11 connection and WMD’s, illegal torturing and murders at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib, the never-ending Iraq War soon to move to Iran and Syria, the NSA secretly spying on Americans (and getting away with it), the Bird Flu pandemic (soon to be released on America so the feds will enact their martial law/police state), RFID chips that are implanted in your arm (or your child’s) for your own "protection", the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America (North American Union) that will take away America's borders, America's money (turned into Amero's) and America's sovereignty, etc. You will also realize why PATRIOT Act I and II were rushed through Congress without being read and how these laws actually take away our rights like:
1st Amendment - Freedom of religion, speech, assembly, and the press.
4th Amendment - Freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures.
5th Amendment - No person to be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law.
6th Amendment - Right to a speedy public trial by an impartial jury, right to be informed of the facts of the accusation, right to confront witnesses and have the assistance of counsel.
8th Amendment - No excessive bail or cruel and unusual punishment shall be imposed.
14th Amendment - All persons (citizens and noncitizens) within the US are entitled to
due process and the equal protection of the laws.
Where will these global elites/terrorists stop? Hopefully before America’s downfall and impending tyranny.

I close off with a few of my favorite quotes:
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security deserves neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
"Terrorism does not justify the neglect of accepted legal norms. This is how we distinguish ourselves from the terrorists themselves." - Ahron Barak
"…the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country." - Hermann Goering, Hitler’s Reich Marshal, at the Nuremberg Trials after World War II.
"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." - Abraham Lincoln
"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." - James Madison
"In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way." - Franklin D. Roosevelt
"If this were a Dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier... just as long as I'm the Dictator." - George Bush (Dec 18, 2000)
"When the Government fears the People, there is Liberty. When the People fear the Government, there is Tyranny." - Thomas Jefferson
"In the beginning of a change the Patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot." - Mark Twain
"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." - Franklin D. Roosevelt

Never chase a lie.

Never chase a lie. Let it alone, and it will run itself to death. - Lyman Beecher

Show "Magic Planes" by Anonymous (not verified)

Enough with the cartoon planes @ WTC disinfo! When aluminum

planes are flying @ 500 mph, they can easily penetrate a steel & concrete structure.

Show "Plane Debris" by Anonymous (not verified)
Show "Make believe planes and make believe passengers" by Anonymous (not verified)
Show "Shame on You" by Ronald Wieck

Shame on you enemy of the USA

Sorry Ronnie, but I'll take an experts advice over an enemy of the USA any day. Watch for yourself
http://youtube.com/watch?v=K2VoUN-7RVU
I'm wondering, are you even a citizen of this country?

Show "New Depths" by Ronald Wieck

No enemy of mine

Any person who says another is not patriotic because one defies the goverments words is a drone. I am for one am an Individual and believe 9-11 was an attack by our own goverment. So if you say that I or any one else is unpatriotic because of what we believe then you are the one who is ignorant. I have served this country and still do so I can say without a doubt I serve to protect the constitution not those who are appointed by the people. It is the basis of freedom that has allowed us to challenge 9-11 and that is proof we still have a chance to win. Soon our freedoms will be gone because drones as yourself will be the cause of this. Remember 9-11 as the day the blood line of Freedom was severed.

You'll learn later in this

You'll learn later in this thread that Mr. Wieck doesn't defy the government's word; he supports it. On the contrary, he calls US unpatriotic for asking questions about 911. He is nothing more than a troll; that's why he's getting such a hard time--later on we get a little strange mocking him. He joined this site for the SOLE purpose of disruption.

So, warning in advance, this thread will get weird. Sorry about that. If you want a serious discussion, I'd try this blogger link:

http://www.911blogger.com/node/5368

among others--click on the tracker above for more. Oh, an just so it's clear, to respond to a post you hit the reply in the TOP right of that post.

Thanks for visiting 911Blogger.

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

Show "Loss of Freedom" by Ronald Wieck

the experts

"Sorry Ronnie, but I'll take an experts advice over an enemy of the USA any day. Watch for yourself
http://youtube.com/watch?v=K2VoUN-7RVU
I'm wondering, are you even a citizen of this country?"

The problem here is assumption and an unwillingness to think.

1. Experts are definitely people to be regarded. The question is, who are the experts? There exist experts in the mainstream media, and experts in the independent media. However, who is telling the truth, and who is blowing smoke? Those bribed by the monopolistic corporate cartel, including Hearst Corporation, to "agree" with a fable a grade-schooler could see through? Those paid off to cherry-pick and fabricate evidence? How about the experts in the independent media who adamantly disagree with the 'experts' in the media, and present their cases with real evidence? Independent experts who are attacked and ridiculed by the media for actually being true patriots and questioning what happened.

http://www.911research.com/re911/about.html
http://911research.wtc7.net/papers/index.html

I suggest readings by David Icke to get a feel for who's controlling the shots in the world to understand what incredible liars "experts" in the media can be.

Do you need an expert to convince you a plane hit the Pentagon, or can you actually think a bit with your own mind? Of couse, since an expert on television said it, it must be true! Or is it?

http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/pentalawn.html

Perhaps you need an expert to tell you how to add one plus one.

2. Who are the enemies of the USA? Are they radical Muslims, or are they simply a creation, a fantasy to satisfy your bigotry and a place to direct your prejudiced hatred?

No sir, it is you who should be asked, "are you a citizen of this country?"

Show "Disingenuous Questions Answered Honestly" by Ronald Wieck

experts and liars

Ronald:

Firstly, I aplogize for any invective or insults. I'm simply against pathological liars, especially in positions of power. I have no problem believing the "official" version as long as I see hard evidence, but I've seen nothing but smoke, replete with mass killings both here and overseas. That's what's most disturbing. Unfortunately, to the best of my research and knowledge, no one involved with the planning of the Sept. attacks has been captured or killed, and I have not seen any remote indication that bin Laden had anything to do with the attacks.

"The government and independent researchers-- hundreds of physicists, chemists, metallurgists, structural engineers, seismologists, avionics techs, demolition experts--are telling the truth."

I presume you mean researchers working for official purposes, as opposed to independent researchers challenging the government. Do you feel such because you perhaps want to believe that?

The glaring problem here is that the "official story" was explained out in mere hours _before_ any real analyses were even conducted. I'm a chemical engineer with an advanced degree, and I understand the importance of paying attention to detail and drawing conclusions based on evidence, not the other way around (I'd be fired if I did!). I also understand the importance of not forcing information or fudging data, which seems far too obvious in the case of the atrocity of 9/11.

For example, the collapse of the towers officially was advertised in a matter of hours as a result of the airline impacts. However, no forensic evidence was conducted on the wreckage whatsoever; the wreckage was immediately exported overseas. If there was nothing to hide, why was the wreckage exported so quickly? If investigating a catastrophic building failure, a forensic analysis of the steel is the most basic requirement, yet this aspect was completely sidestepped in the ASCE's report and NIST's building performance report. Steven Jones of BYU is the ONLY individual that conducted any such analysis on an actual sample of the wreckage...of which he found thermite, a substance used in demolition. I'm not saying the cause was necessarily demolition, but a full, unbiased, forecnsic analysis begs additional investigation. Further, I am yet to see any sensible official explanation for the mysterious implosion of WTC7. More attention has been placed on surbuban house fires.

How about all the witnesses and firefighters who heard bombs going off in the buildings, in areas nowhere near the jet impacts? I also note that not a single witness has come forth to justify a commercial airliner hitting either WTC1 or WTC2, but a FoxNews witness claims he observed a jet of a miltary caliber hitting the second tower. The first impact, caught on amateur video, does not reveal a passenger airliner either. Speaking of which, how did "our President" manage to see the first impact, as he eloquently put? After all, it was a "surprise" attack.

Aside, go back and review the video of the South Tower "plane impact" in slow motion. You'll notice the "plane" slices through the tower for tens of feet _before_ any impact explosion is noted. Effects of the impact would have been noted upon immediate contact.

In addition, listen to this interview of the research editor of Popular Mechanics, Davin Coburn, v. Charles Goyette. Coburn couldn't answer the simplest questions. If PM's claims were true, they would have had no problem with that interview.

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Feature-Article.htm?InfoNo=009309

"The internet fake "reporters""

This one was right from CNN. If we heard it on CNN, the mouthpiece of the government, it must be true, yea?
http://thewebfairy.com/911/pentagon/index.html

"Show me one of your "independent experts" who hasn't been exposed as a fraud, a charlatan, and a liar. Let's have a name."

Please review the link I sent in my last post. Also, Steven Jones, Ph.D., captured a lot of interest in his brief appearance in the mainstream media, and although I believe his research and ultimately his presence was used more as a tool for the purpose of generating conflict, which the media feeds on, in case you haven't noticed.

Anyway, you miss the point. You're thinking too much inside the box. You aren't grasping the geopolitical structure which runs America (and consequently the world). It's corporations, and slimebag banksters who own the corporations (who are also FUNDING all the atrocious wars). It's about money and power, and they don't care WHO they kill, whether it's some innocent overseas, you, or me. They unscrupulously slander the independent media for the purpose of keeping a story straight and acheiving a horrible and scary agenda. They also invented the mind-numbing term "conspiracy theory" in the 1960s.

Independent, serious researchers have nothing to gain and receive miniscule attention compared to the mass media, so what reason would they have to lie as opposed to not saying anything at all? I've made a lot more scientific sense out of their work than anything the mass media has presented.

"The conspiracy liars probably haven't been "bribed" so much as driven by their intense hatred of America."

Conspiracy liars? Then please explain why ninety percent of those polled on CNN believe there's a cover-up?
http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/cnn_poll2.htm

Finally...if 9/11 was reportedly a surprise, then why was not only no one in Intelligence fired, but a couple heads promoted in light of the terrible death toll? I have seen worse happen over blown plays in professional football games.

Finally, I do recommend the works of David Icke...because literally everything he's predicted since the late 1990s has become reality, from presidents to terrorism to world changes.

Show "Honest Debate?" by Ronald Wieck

the big picture

Hi, Ronald:

I have spent 4 years researching and analyzing this topic in depth, as well as the psychology surrounding such a momentous tragedy. I know immediately when someone or some group is trying to obfuscate an issue. In the case of 911myths.com, I have reviewed it, and even exchanged a couple of friendly notes with Mike, the administrator. He dodges the tough questions, or else presents material that's not particularly sensible. If Mike knows his stuff, why won't he debate more prominent individuals in the alternative media? I find his site to be disinfo, pure and simple, and many of his conclusions are outright laughable or copied from other mainstream sources.

The fact that some scientists verify the official story doesn't mean squat, particularly when they are challenged by other scientists, and then refuse to debate publically. You can get any scientists to say anything you please if you pay them enough, period. Unfortunately, the world operates heavily on bribery and threats at the "higher" levels. I am aware of individuals who have been victimized as such.

My breakdown on Dr. Greening:

1. He conveniently ignores Building 7.
2. He ignores the fact that a photo of the damage in the North Tower clearly indicated people staring out of the hole. Yet this tower collapsed due to extreme heat of burning jet fuel? How did those people survive initially? I happen to have enough respect for my profession and common sense not to believe such nonsense.
3. There is no precedent for the collapse based on the incident. The fire burned for roughly an hour, with most of the "jet fuel" burned up outside the building. However, other steel structures have burned for close to a day's length yet never gave the slightest indication of collapsing.
4. He ignores the molten pools of steel, observed by Peter Tulley (president of Tully Construction of Flushing, New York) and Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolition, Inc., present in BOTH the twin towers and tower 7. He also ignores the fact that virtually _all_ the concrete was completely pulverized.

I'm not even considering the fact that the lack of oxygen in that environment, indicated by the thick black smoldering cloud, could not have allowed for a temperature capable of melting the steel in a manner so that both towers could somehow collapse symmetrically and completely.

So why should I even consider this paid-off shill? I don't need his paper to draw my conclusions. Perhaps if he debates Dr. Steven Jones publically, I'll take note, but I won't hold my breath.

"Goyette refused to grasp, or feigned not grasping, the point made in the PM book that the Philips LTC 1261 security cameras installed at the Pentagon were set at a shutter-speed too slow to capture the image of an object moving over 700-feet per second."

So what? This is an example of deliberate obfuscation using an irrelevant, suspect technicality. Let's say the camera was unable to accurately capture the flight on video. What about the other video cameras; surely at least one of them would catch a huge jumbo jet on film? After all, the Pentagon is the most heavily guarded military complex in the country. Goyette was simply looking for proof questioned the fact that no other video evidence was provided. I would have done the same thing. Perhaps if PM was more prepared, they wouldn't have struggled so badly. I am experienced with giving presentations, and it's a cinch to tell that those who perform the best are those most prepared, and vice-versa.

Flashback: The first scenario of this nature occurred in 1995 in Oklahoma City, with mutiple bombs wired into the Murriah Federal Building. Videos from 12 cameras were confiscated, with not a single one ever released to the public. History repeats itself, it certainly seems.

"He kept demanding to see something that Coburn tried vainly to explain would be impossible to show."

Actually, Coburn asserted something that he couldn't justify. PM allegedly represent the "experts" here. If they're going to claim something, they better back it up with evidence. Impasse.

Let me reiterate that if I responded like Coburn in front of my boss, I'd be heading to the unemployment office the next day. Of course Coburn gets a free pass, and PM cancels all future interviews with alternative media. What is wrong with this picture?

It was also disturbing to note that Coburn outrageously claimed "DNA evidence all over the place" in regards to the hijackers remains during a call. I suppose he misspoke as well?

"Your point about the plane slicing into the WTC escapes me. Surely you are not succumbing the "no-planes" insanity?"

It's no more "insane" than believing a couple dozen Arab schmucks barely capable of driving automobiles managed to somehow defeat a multi-trillion dollar intelligence apparatus by flying jets with military precision into targets hundreds of miles away. Anyway, why is it "insanity"? What is the obsession with this term? Do you even know the definition? I am perfectly capable of seeing things with my own eyes and draw unbiased conclusions. If I'm wrong, does that make me insane? If I rationize something differently than someone else, does that makes me insane? How about the 90% polled on CNN who believe a cover-up has taken place? Are they insane as well? Personally, I feel anyone who believes and does everything our government says is a dumb sheep!

Anyhow, watch the video in slow motion and see for yourself. It's pretty interesting, but you're entitled to your conclusion. I have done enough in-depth research to convince me that AA flights 11 and 77 never _existed_.

Let's talk about those brilliant hijackers now. So brilliant! They take off in a 757 from an airport in D.C. to hijack the jet and hit a target in D.C. So would it make more sense to:
1. Take over the jet immediately so as to not attract NORAD's attention, or...
2. Wait until the jet is halfway across the country before taking over, giving NORAD ample time to register the flight off-course and send in an interception team? Of course that would have happened had they not been given stand-down orders!

"Incidentally, seismic data gathered by the Lamont-Doherty laboratories demonstrate convincingly that no explosives were used to bring down any buildings"

That's pure conjecture. I've read reports that tell otherwise. So who's correct? I don't need seismic reports to recognize a professional implosion, and paid-off 'experts' will say anything.

"Why would a reasonable-sounding person such as yourself repeat the silly canard about Bush "seeing" the first plane hit the WTC?"

Er...because he _did_?

"The possibilities are that Bush misspoke or that he saw something that was impossible for him to see. "

Or perhaps the slimeball saw it on closed circuit TV...

But really, if individuals like Bush, Silverstein, and Coburn misspeak, or say something that could be ascertained as incriminating or moronic, they're exonerated and construed to be a victim of a terrible misunderstanding. That's great. Can you name the 10 amendments in the Bill of Rights and explain what they mean?

I suppose the terrible worm virus, released the same day of the attacks that no one talks about anymore, was also pure coincidence? It really clobbered my company at the time.

Well, thanks for the discussion, Ronald...I have other matters to attend to now. Even if we disagree on these topics, it's nonetheless important that we respect what each other believes. I firmly believe that the incidents concerning this tragedy were designed to keep us citizens divided, focusing on the events rather than the big picture. I am trying to understand the big picture, and to me, "9/11" represents the biggest snow-job in the history of the world in context of a much bigger agenda. If I'm right, I'm prepared. If I'm wrong, I'm relieved.

Show "Bad Effort" by Ronald Wieck

oh that's just u2r2h...

oh that's just u2r2h... they serve the same master you do...

Contact

Hmmm...maybe someone ought to contact Lisa on that? From someone who has spent years tracing family trees, I would be very upset if my 'deceased' husbands name was not part of our history...in marriage and in death. There is a Todd Beamer listed who died in '97. Any relation?

families

Just noticed that the family members of Jeremy Glick and LeRoy Homer (both on FL 93) think it is an inside job and have spoken out on this. Glicks son was attacked on O'Really a while back. Is there a list somewhere of 9/11 families that support truth? They need to speak before the new congress.

http://www.oreilly-sucks.com/transcripts/oreillyglick.htm (O'Really attacks Glick's son)

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1019-01.htm (Homer's widow speaks out on government involvement)

plane crashes

Love the picture of the plane that hit a mountain in the Andes. Puts it all in perspective, doesn't it?

...steel & concrete structure...

And glass. The windows of the tower are never mentioned by cgihuggers. About what? 30%, 40% of the towers exterior wall were glass. That's where your aluminum planes has enter. The floor deck and engines blew up some steel column, otherwise, rest of the planes went through windows. Just my 2¢.

I can also then ask you what flew through 3 RINGS of the

Pentagon, by your own reasoning. Why is it that planes can't penetrate the towers, but they can demolish the Pentagon?

Good question anon

Maybe Mark can respond to that one. Oh sorry Ronald is taking this case.

Show "Does Anybody Ever Read Anything?" by Ronald Wieck

yeah dozens of tons at hundreds of miles an hour

that is super hard to figure out how that worked!

Show "Flight 77 hit the Pentagon!!!" by The Captain

haha

Wow 3 votes down in 7 minutes... 9/11 blogger has really come a long way lately...

What Eyewitnesses Reported:

* Jetliner: 20+
- Boeing 757, 737, Airbus 320: very similar twin-engine jetliners
- Also agree on specific details, eg: flaps up

* Small Jet: 2
- Both accounts are from far away: Pentagon City, Rosslyn
- Because of high speed near ground, has appearance of small plane

* Missile: 0
- Reports of sounds like a missile are consistent with high-speed jetliner flyover

I guess the images are broken in that presentation I linked to before... here's a really good essay on the Pentagon though: http://www.911research.com/essays/pentagontrap.html

Just listen to a US General,

Just listen to a US General, an expert on identifying objects in photographs.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=K2VoUN-7RVU

Facts Matter

You're right Captain,

The 16 foot hole claim has been debunked six ways to Sunday and yet some people still promulgate this nonsense. Indeed, by putting the claim up front and center at no 1 I was immediately turned off from the article as being "evidence". A quick scan of the rest of the article shows it to contain a lot of useful information but the fact that it is coupled with garbage claims nullifies its veracity. Simply put, a lot of claims (no planes/space beams/16 foot holes) are total rubbish. We as a movement need to recognize this and ignore people who actively promote this, even if it seems to help make the case that of government complicity. The facts matter people - there is enough evidence out there of complicity without having to bring garbage claims in. Just the facts ma'm,

Richard

16 foot hole

I've never spoken on no planes or holograms or whatever that junk is.
But before the Pentagon collapse, there was just a small hole. You can see the whole ceiling hasn't collapsed yet.
Am I kooky for thinking this?
Can someone show some pictures, I don't want to be spreading disinfo.
Thanks!

If you are kooky, so am I

No , you're not crazy. Though I think the hole might have been a little larger--17 to 19ft--still not big enough for a jumbo jet.

The concern is many first hear doubts about a plane hitting the Pentagon in an argument claiming NO PLANES WERE USED WHAT SO EVER ON 911. Or more improbably theories.

Reguardless of the size of the hole, there are plenty of anomalies at the Pentagon to serously doubt a JUMBO JET crashed there. That does not rule out other AIRCRAFT( aircraft can be planes, jets, missles, drones).

Most of us can agree an aircraft OF SOME SORT hit the Pentagon, and most of us understand why someone doubts it was a JUMBO JET, even if they're inclined to disagree.

Another way to tackle this is to avoid the issue altogether because NOTHING SHOULD HAVE HIT THE PENTAGON.

Hope that helped.

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

Hi card, I don't know what

Hi card,

I don't know what hit the pentagon, but I haven't seen conclusive evidence that it wasn't a 757 (most likely F77).

For detailed analysis of the 16 foot impact hole claim:
http://911review.com/articles/stjarna/eximpactdamage.html

And also here:
http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/analysis/conclusions/composite.html

While this may not convince you a 757 hit, you can at least admit it was not 16 feet when you include the damage to the first floor. The point is that greenback's article and others continue to make the 16 foot claim when it can be conclusively shown the hole was larger.

Col Jenny is right, the main issue with the pentagon is how it could be hit 45 min after the first attack, Hani Hanjour's credentials as an incompetent pilot, and the descrepencies of the flight data recorder with the supposed flight path (see http://pilotsfor911truth.org).

Leading an article supposedly about only "evidence" with the 16 foot claim as the #1 point is really inexcusable. In addition as the Captain pointed out, the blue tarp claim is also conclusively shown to be simply a tent (see http://www.rense.com/general70/bluett.htm).

The best site for pentagon info is probably http://pentagonresearch.com

Thanks!

Hey,
Thanks for the help you guys.
I'm actually a veteran researcher, I just don't concentrate much on the Pentagon.
From what I gathered after a quick analysis of your sites, Anonymous, is that it definitely wasn't 16 feet but even the damage done after the collapse isn't consistent with a Boeing 757.
We can all agree that the hole before AND after collapse look a bit shady, correct?
I'm more of a PNAC, NORAD stand down, put options Norman Mineta type Truther myself. But it's always good to get the physical aspects down, as well.
I know you geniuses out there can help me grasp what the common consensus is amongst the Truthers concerning the Pentagon. It's always intrigued me.
Thanks again!

You're welcome, and continue

You're welcome, and continue reading--have you got Zwicker's "Tower's of Deception"?

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

Thanks for your efforts

Too bad people are downrating you for speaking the truth. I would uprate you if I could figure out how.

My faith in humanity has been sorely tested by this issue. Most Americans today couldn't reason their way out of a paper bag, and would set up their OWN police state to shut others up if they were in power.

WHY do so many "skeptics" continue to see the InfoWar as having only one "front," against those who explicitly declare that they are skeptics? WHY do so few people understand that there are agents and obfuscators behind the scenes, manipulating the useful idiots? Cold-blooded killers have no compunctions about lying, blackmailing, etc. -- DUH!

I've seen people literally post that "the way to figure out what's true is to contradict everything the government says." Some people have NO IDEA how good propaganda works.

Only with a rigorous approach can we claim and hold the high ground. And, it will take even more than that. I don't know what, but we've got enough evidence. Have had for years now. The problem is somewhere else.

Gregg Roberts (posting my personal views here)
Associate Editor
http://911review.com
http://911research.wtc7.net
http://wtc7.net

http://americanbuddhist.net/n

http://americanbuddhist.net/node/3885

My New Year's Fantasy
by Alvin Revere
American Buddhist Net News
12/31/06
George Bush goes on TV and admits all of his faults, declares he stole both elections, admits the invasions of both Iraq and Afghanistan were mistakes, and confesses that he knows how 9/11 really happened and is going to tell the world as soon as he has arrested the guilty parties, which he has already begun doing.

Since Dick Cheney has already been arrested, Bush asks the Dalai Lama to be our new vice-president.

The New York Times, in concert with other major media outlets in the USA, prints a front-page, bold-type article admitting that it has been controlled by the CIA and other nefarious groups for years and that consequently it has never been a source of real news. The paper further vows to correct this problem not only by printing the truth from now on, but by actually looking for it as well. All other major news media in the USA agree to do the same.

All major neo-conservative "thinkers" go on TV and confess that they have been wrong all along. And this will not be a hedged confession of the type they have already given--that the invasion of Iraq was a "noble idea" that went wrong. This will be the real thing. They will admit that they have always had a poor grasp of history, foreign affairs, and government, and that they have always filled this vacuum with juvenile ideas and endless loops of circular reasoning. Some of them even swear to start drinking again.

The ruling class of the USA in a fit of good feeling confesses that the American economic system is a cruel joke that has been perpetuated for the sole purpose of making them even richer, while debasing everyone else to a state of obeisance bordering on slavery. They vow to correct the system and redistribute their wealth so that all Americans can enjoy life as much as they do.

Congress repeals the Patriot Act, the Military Commissions Act, ends illegal domestic spying, re-establishes habeas corpus, ends torture, passes a law that prevents the military from using depleted uranium, tears down the recently built Halliburton detention centers, passes universal health care, and legalizes marijuana.

The Federal Reserve Board dissolves itself and returns to the American Congress the power to print money.

George Bush swears to accept the Kyoto Accord and declares that he wishes he had never stopped drinking because doing so gave him ambition and that made him run for governor of Texas and that is what really led to this whole mess.

The Dalai Lama accepts.

Then 2007 it will be!

Happy New Year!

love

best article ever-----going

best article ever-----going for the gold

ATTENTION PLEASE *IMPORTANT*

Here is a very important website to pass along if you guys are not aware.

~Here is New York~

It is a website established right after 9/11 for contributors who had photos and artworks of what they capture that day. They gallery was at Soho for a good few months.

There are tons of pictures on this site, probably over 15,000. Hopefully we'll see something we had missed before.

http://hereisnewyork.org/gallery/thumb.asp?categoryID=3

Thank You.

DZ - possible hacker post

DZ - possible hacker post

Are you serious? I'm just

Are you serious? I'm just trying to help out and post a useful link. This site "Here is NY" was the first contributor project after 9/11. Please take a look before you accuse someone a hacker.

"Here is NY"
http://hereisnewyork.org/gallery/thumb.asp?categoryID=3

There are tons of pictures

There are tons of pictures you haven't seen before. More eyes dissecting these pictures, we might just find some new evidences.

Anybody know which building

Anybody know which building is that on Picture #6986,
http://hereisnewyork.org/gallery/thumb.asp?CategoryID=3&picnum=205
seem like that building had a lot of damage, possibly more than WTC7, Well that one stood up just fine.

Oh it's you, Rick

Oh it's you, Rick Seigel...

my suspicion just got stronger... 

Fantastic article, thanks! It just hits you with fact after fact

about how 9/11 was an inside job! This would also make a great flyer!

Show "Correction" by Ronald Wieck

Good Pentagon write-up in the article. Such a smoking gun that

Pentagon is! Don't overlook it.

Show "Hang On to Falsehood" by Ronald Wieck

Nothing on your precious

Nothing on your precious little debunker site really explains why hijacked planes were flying around our skies for two hours without any fighter jets being launched to intercept. Explain to us all why normally it takes 20 minutes to intercept an off course plane, and yet it took two hours on 9/11. The missile battery argument can't be proven from either side, you can't prove they weren't there, I can't prove that they were. Your work here is done, go get your CIA paycheck.

Show "Truth Doesn't Trump Twoof" by Ronald Wieck

Ronald lives in a world

Ronald lives in a world where Government Officials can be trusted to always tell the truth. He lives someplace where the official stories are 100% true, and should never be questioned by anyone. Even though he has lived to see Watergate, Iran-Contra, Monica Lewinsky, etc., he tells us there is nothing to see here and nobody in our government ever lies. You claim 9/11 was the result of staggering incompetence at every level of our government, yet not one single person has been fired or reprimanded for what happened. I think you're the one living in a fantasy world of nonsense.

Show "Focus on Reality" by Ronald Wieck

"there was a huge hole in

"there was a huge hole in the air defense network that ignored the possibility of threats originating within its parameters."

exactly!

I think you're catching on.

"The truth shall make you free." Why not make the truth free? We live on a priceless blue pearl, awash in a universe of fire and ice. Cut the crap.

Show "That Doesn't Help You" by Ronald Wieck

The Military Industrial

The Military Industrial Complex was the victor in the Cold War. Everything else was collateral damage.

But I'm sure someone could still convince you of a communist hiding under your bed. Is there a picture of Joseph McCarthy handing over it?

Bugger off.

Show "Con Someone Else, Comrade" by Ronald Wieck
Show "So let me get this straight," by MormonJihad (not verified)

Haven't seen you for ages,

Haven't seen you for ages, MormonJihad. Hey, everyone let's welcome MJ back!!!

You'll be relieved to know I'm on your side now, thanks to Ronnie! Let's get those towel head terrorists! Nuke Iran!

But I didn't know some of my FORMER troofer mates were Nazis and Commies! Who'd 'ave guessed? Guess I got out in time, eh?

Show "Taxonomy" by Ronald Wieck

WOW! Cheers for those words

WOW! Cheers for those words of wisdom, Ronnie! Now let's get those towel-heads! Nukes for Democracy!!

Yeah you have. I'm not

Yeah you have.

I'm not suprised you haven't figured it out though.

The lack of honesty, integrity and courage by the
average twoofer is exceeded only by thier lack of
intelligence.

Speaking of lack of integrity and honesty, by the way
isn't it a federal crime to impersonate a military officer,
Jenny?

Remember when they hauled that fried chicken magnate

off to the federal slammer? You better watch out, Jenny. MH done told you what's what.

Question for a laughable Shill.

How did the alleged hijackers locate their targets and hit them with such accuracy? Did they also smuggle electronic navigation devices on board or did the FAA guide them?

Last time I checked, there were no traffic signs at 30,000 ft.

Show "Warning: Learning is Dangerous to Delusions" by Ronald Wieck

LOL, For once you're right.

"You wouldn't dream of reading this. "

Exactly, Shill, Or is it Half-wit?

I've been to 911 myths back when it was first put up. I some how doubt the lies, spin & moronic conclusions are any less intellectually offensive today.

Now, answer the question I posed to YOU.

Show "Of Course You Wouldn't" by Ronald Wieck

"You are a typical fraud, empty-headed and invincibly ignorant."

Too goddamn funny, considering the source.

Since you refuse to answer a simple question I'd like to make sure anyone interested in reality & truth knows you and your 911myths site are a joke.

Has your 'expert' Shill analyzed the NTSB flight data that was recently released? Because pilotsfor911truth.org has.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPF4Lo4wkJ4

I just wonder, are you one of those McCain type boot lickers who would sacrifice their mother on the alter of the new world order?

I Can't Get Anything from You, Can I?

Yes, we get the idea that every expert who refutes your nonsensical fantasies is a shill. Still, it should be esay to counter at least SOME of things Bernacchia writes, no? I mean, I present a detailed paper by a pilot/flight instructor and you counter with speculative claptrap by some crank .

Tell us where Bernacchia is going wrong. He writes VERY SPECIFICALLY. He is either correct or incorrect. If you're not the fraud you appear to be, show us the errors.

Incidentally, I thought the nutters had given up on the fake air traffic controller. The fantasists' situation must be getting desperate.

Wotcher, Ronnie! You tell

Wotcher, Ronnie! You tell him! And remember, DON"T let these troofers make you try to debunk "911Press For Truth"!

USA!! All the way! Queen and Country! Let's nuke Iran!!!

From your "expert"

"In my opinion
mr. Hanjour was very lucky in his nefarious endeavour, because a pilot of his
experience, allowed to try multiple instances of the same manoeuvre, would
have a very high failure rate."

Seems alot of luck was on the side of the hijackers that day, and you believe it all, hook, line and sinker.... Ron.

About those hijackers - One

About those hijackers - One thing I can't understand, is why the majority of them came from saudi arabia? The Bushies are good friends with the saudis (que up holding hands montage) so why would they try to frame them? Wouldn't it make more sense to use Iraqis? Any theories?

Show "Hang onto what..." by Anonymous (not verified)
Show "Great Stuff" by Ronald Wieck

Did you know

that the Zapruder film was a complete fabrication?

Show "Hey, I Never Knew That!" by Ronald Wieck

Was that too obscure?

No sense of humor either -

Show "How Should I Know?" by Ronald Wieck

you should include that

you should include that Norman Mintea's testimony and Richard Clarke's account in his book directly contradict the 9/11 commission report

http://www.truth911.net

Show "Again?" by Ronald Wieck

Hey Ronny...

Did Flight 93 ever come within 50, 30, or 10 miles of Washington D.C.? And how do you account for Mineta's clear recollection of Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon after he arrived at the PEOC?

And tell me, doesn't it make more sense that Cheney was rushed into the PEOC closer to 9:02:59, as Richard Clarke, and David Bohrer describe, when the entire world knew America was "under attack", or at 9:58 like the 9/11 Commission claims?

If Cheney wasn't put in a position where he could collaborate efforts to "help" against the attacks while the President was pre-occupied, and instead waited an hour to put himself in that position, why is that acceptable to you?

And can I please have the name of the "young man" Norman Mineta was referring to? I'd like the chance to speak with him.


"We've been offered a unique opportunity and we must not let this moment pass."

— George W. Bush - State Of The Union Address - January 29th, 2002

Heh. Jon Gold has more questions... psychic revelations

And never can Jon Gold ever produce an answer supporting his own claims.

Even when we ASK him too.

You really do not have a clue how pathetic your behavior here is, do you, Jon? You just go along with your psychic revelations as if that was what the world was all about.

I'm not going to get...

Into a back and forth with you.

The questions remain because the President who should be able to answer them, WILL NOT.

Ray McGovern


"We've been offered a unique opportunity and we must not let this moment pass."

— George W. Bush - State Of The Union Address - January 29th, 2002

You ran away from Ron last time.

You might address his posts that you ran away from last time, Jon Gold.

Show us that you have even a hint of integrity, why don\'t you?

________________

The standard of proof these people require of us is different than the standard of proof they require of themselves.

- Tom Kean, co-chair of the 9/11 Commission, commenting on 9/11 conspiracy theorists, 09/08/2006,
Behind the Closed Doors of the 9/11 Commission
http://hancock.constitutioncenter.org/media/9-11_commission_2/9-11_commi...

2006 is the year in which the 9/11 Truth Movement began its Death Plunge.
- The Real World, 12/30/2006

Good article, i haven't

Good article, i haven't finished it yet, but one thing though, the mysterious blue tarp at the pentagon was a tent, they set up a few of these on the pentagon lawn, they were just moving it to another location, there was no mystery about it.

Show "Be Careful" by Ronald Wieck

Does the CIA pay per post,

Does the CIA pay per post, or by the hour?

Show "Clarification" by Ronald Wieck

such wit! poor ron, dont you

such wit! poor ron, dont you have anything to do? you have enough time to not only go to conspiracysmasher every day but now you come here? jesus man, your like 50 something and you troll around obsessing over selling the official story of 9/11 every day. what does that say about you and where your life is at? does the 9/11 Commission need your help ron? obviously most people come to this website because we have a problem with the official story of 9/11 or think that questions remain and would like to know everything that happened that day and why. we are mostly activists. are you an "anti-conspiracy" activist? a pro-official story activist? really? now, why exactly do you obsess over 9/11? i can admit i obsess over it to some degree based on the fact i research it constantly and come to this website at least once a day. you seem to have done the same thing from the other side. now, what is the root of YOUR obsession with US and with 9/11? i have yet to find any of your type to answer that question without the usual stock answers of "if i dont do it who will?", or "im not obsessed, i only find it funny". you are obsessed. so what is it ron? are you doing your civic duty in obsessing over 9/11 and "twoofers"? time to grow up and look in the mirror ron. you are trolling 9/11 websites and fighting with people that you deem insane. what does that say about you?

Show "Precision in Language" by Ronald Wieck

try to answer this time ron.

im going to keep copy and pasting this until you can actually answer the very simple questions:

such wit! poor ron, dont you have anything to do? you have enough time to not only go to conspiracysmasher every day but now you come here? jesus man, your like 50 something and you troll around obsessing over selling the official story of 9/11 every day. what does that say about you and where your life is at? does the 9/11 Commission need your help ron? obviously most people come to this website because we have a problem with the official story of 9/11 or think that questions remain and would like to know everything that happened that day and why. we are mostly activists. are you an "anti-conspiracy" activist? a pro-official story activist? really? now, why exactly do you obsess over 9/11? i can admit i obsess over it to some degree based on the fact i research it constantly and come to this website at least once a day. you seem to have done the same thing from the other side. now, what is the root of YOUR obsession with US and with 9/11? i have yet to find any of your type to answer that question without the usual stock answers of "if i dont do it who will?", or "im not obsessed, i only find it funny". you are obsessed. so what is it ron? are you doing your civic duty in obsessing over 9/11 and "twoofers"? time to grow up and look in the mirror ron. you are trolling 9/11 websites and fighting with people that you deem insane. what does that say about you?

Ron has whupped your ass again, Chris.

You are making an absolute fool of yourself and the 9/11 Truth Movement, Chris.

Keep up the good work for us. We love it when you slimy cretins do yourselves in.

i dont know you. you have

i dont know you. you have been a coward all along by staying anonymous, but i would suggest you take the same advice and answer the same questions i asked ronny. being a coward like ron, im sure you wont.

Show "Try Reading What I Write" by Ronald Wieck

Ron, your like 55 years old

Ron, your like 55 years old and you troll 9/11 websites daily taking childish shots at people. its time to look in the mirror ron, this is pathetic. time to grow up, get a life, find a hobby, anything. seriously old man, you are starting to scare me a little bit.

you are not a coward to

you are not a coward to confront people on their "home turf", you are a pathetic immature joke for being 50 something and engaging in daily flame wars with people you think are insane. how was your new years eve by the way? did you pull yourself away from the computer long enough to live your life for one night? oh wait, this is your life..........

Show "Corrections" by Ronald Wieck

yeah, you're not the only one with a "life"

but do you have an answer for "Angle is next." http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/11/60II/main521718.shtml — fully documented, and at the heart of Webster G. Tarpley's incisive analysis of 9/11.

You're blogging in here, Ronald Wiec, eating a lot of space and time, talking about everyone as though mentally retarded, while presenting your research as exceptionally superior to one and all. You suggest none among us is up to your analytical, and or oratory prowess.

From that premis, I would propose a public debate between you and Webster G. Tarpley, based on the conclusion of his analysis...topic: Support, or lack there of, for a 9/11 coup d'etat by a rogue network vs. blow-back attack by Islamic terrorists (or whatever conclusion you've drawn, the one supported by the 911 Commission, presumably). Perhaps Webster would be interested in a one-on-one with you on his weekly radio broadcast.

If not that, perhpas a real-time online chat, hosted right here -- with everyone but the two of you agreeing to simply sit back refresh their screens. To maintain discipline, it could probably be set up that submissions from all IPs but the two of yours be blocked. Posts would remain for anyone who could not fit the real-time event into their schedule.

You game, Mr. Wieck? I'd bet Webster is and I'd love to observe.

To give you a chance to see what you'd be up against, if you've not already done so, visit:

A/V
http://www.911busters.com/New_911_Evidence/WMV/Webster_Tarpley_NYC.wmv

audio only
http://www.911busters.com/New_911_Evidence/MP3/Webster_Tarpley_NYC.html

I'm Trying

I'm trying to persuade Tarpley to appear with me on Hardfire. If he agrees, we'll have our debate. Most conspiracy liars, frankly, are chicken.

tent?

I'm not saying you're wrong...but a tent for what?

Yes, somebody figured it out

Yes, somebody figured it out that it was just a tent, there was an overhead picture that showed several of those tents.  Probably used for treating the injured, things like that.

 

 

Show "How funny! This piece is from 2004 and you fell for it!" by Anonymous (not verified)

old news?

And this gives you cause to rejoice? The fact that this article is 2 yrs old? It seems to me the Constitution of the USA is a couple hunderd years old and a few people still find it relevant. The Torah, the Bible and the Koran althought written hundreds of years ago are still relevant to some people too. Who determines the life cycle of information?
As to your comment that the Truth Movement is dying, my research indicates the opposite.

Show "Caught with yoiur pants down" by Anonymous (not verified)
Show "The conspiracy virus is an old strand" by Anonymous (not verified)

Mr Backslash!

You're back! We've missed you!
Still posting anonymously? Why? It's almost been 3 months man!

"Machiavelli points out that every conspirator you add to the plot has less chance of preserving secrecy than the previous one. The 9/11 group in fact did tell people about their plans in various ways but the prevailing belief that Arabs couldn\'t do it prevented any of the revelations from being taken seriously. The view that a bunch of Arabs with box cutters couldn\'t do it was precisely the cover they needed."

So, you're telling me the arabs, for their suprise attack on America to start their holy Jihad, decided upon an attack that required almost TOTAL failure from our defense system to be succesful?
Why would they choose such a risky attack?
At least 5 of the hijackers were on the no-fly list. That means they had to pass airport screening, train in the United States when they are wanted terrorists and not be caught, fly in between Afghanistan and the United States for years without being caught, meet minimal resistance on the planes (United 93, they say, was the one plane that fought back and ALL FOUR planes pilot's, many military trained, gave up their planes without a struggle to men with small knives), chose all four planes that had less than half their normal capacity, (I wanna know how they did this, I'd love to get half-full flights instead of jamming in planes everytime I get on one), have the entire U.S. air defense stand down for more than triple their usual time and hit their targets perfectly with no help from the FAA.
That is the biggest conspiracy theory I've ever heard. And I'm not even getting into the physical evidence at the Pentagon, the towers, WTC7 and Shanksville.
And I'm not getting into the beforehand evidence like the PNAC report, Dick Cheney's taking control of NORAD months before 9/11, the put options on AA and UA, the Unocal pipeline deals denied by the Taliban on the weeks leading up to 9/11, One of the Unocal head's becoming president of Afghanistan after we invaded, the ISI general being at the White House on the morning of 9/11, Silverstein's comments, Bush at the school, Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld "slip ups" in speeches, etc etc etc...
It's so easy to see, anyone who has looked into the evidence and still believes the official story is in total denail.

Show "LOL! There is no official story, boob." by Anonymous (not verified)
Show "Irrefutable facts: All the people who would have to be involved." by The 9/11 Truth Movement began its Death Plunge in 2006 (not verified)
Show "Inside Joke" by Ronald Wieck

kind of sad when you have to

kind of sad when you have to walk people through your jokes huh? like abby you should probably give up comedy. its not working. we get it, its just not funny. its typical more than anything. now find a hobby already old man, this is getting pathetic. i have nothing against people who are over age 55 or so like yourself and very much respect older people who still fight the good fight and do what they feel is right and positive. but when they troll websites and insult people daily it shows a certain lack of maturity. reevaluate your life ron. look at where you are, what you are doing right now.

Show "Ageism" by Ronald Wieck

Please explain how torture

Please explain how torture and the doctrine of preemptive war is Christian. Christian is as much a verb as a noun, and if Bush acts like a Christian, I'm Queen of the May. And could you please explain how a man who stated on camera that the Constitution is "just a piece of paper" is a patriot.

Before these fools shoved your head up your ass with all the terrorist hysteria, you would have called for the impeachment of any president who uttered those shocking words and then proceeded to rip it asunder. The United States of America IS the Constitution, Ronny.

If you're not getting paid by the post here, you've been psyopped with the rest of the ignorati and you don't even know it. Now you're just like a deaf dog barking on a backyard chain. The worst part is, you and Mark aren't even good sport anymore.

Show "Tired Hoax" by Ronald Wieck

PLENTY of people noticed.

PLENTY of people noticed. Google it, and you can listen. I guess you'll say it's a pod-person from the Left who managed to sound eerily like the President. As to "trashing the Constitution," read Patriot Acts I and II or the Military Commissions Act lately?

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
Ron Fits in Just Fine

Show "Sorry, Still a Hoax" by Ronald Wieck

i actually do have something

i actually do have something against Fetzer but it has nothing to do with his age. so ron, Bush is a good christian to you huh? if only he was. i dont hate Bush, i think hes a puppet and a fool and i certaintly dont have a problem with christianity. Bush seems to have a major problem with it though. funny how you try to make it look like i do as well. get a life old man.

Show "Knowledge is Precious" by Ronald Wieck

really? you couldnt care

really? you couldnt care less? then why bring it up out of nowhere? you are old to me, too old to be trolling websites and insulting people like an angry child. grow up already, its not too late.

Look at the hypocrite.

You really have some audacity, Chris. You are one of the biggest hypocrites and liars here, almost as bad as your comrade in arms and good buddy, Jon Gold.

You know that your lies are getting you no where other than to hasten the death of the 9/11 Truth Movement. So, why don't you make a New Year's resolution to stop lying about 9/11? Learn something about morality and reason.

I respect you Chris. But

I respect you Chris. But you gotta stop responding and communicating with people YOU KNOW to be trolling/distracting/disinfo. You help them by responding and arguing. Minimize and move on. Please faithful 911bloggers, stop fueling and enabling them.

true.

im gonna do that. and i usually dont respond to them for the most part but its getting tiring and they pretty much spam anyway. and remember, they havent attacked you personally yet. you are right though. im done with them, especially the anonymous one that has yet to say anything original.

I understand. I'm just

I understand. I'm just worried that we spend more time countering and talking about shills. We have limited time, energy, and words to devote to 911blogger and we gotta use them wisely.

Show "Fantasists Still Have Nothing" by Ronald Wieck

Great Post Greenback --

I would like to Point out that Dick Cheney's remarks about Ex-President Ford concerned how great he was for pardoning the crook Nixon.
Do you think Cheney should be pardoned or should he get the same treatment as Saddam ?

Ignore the Obvious

Why didn’t any of the Pentagon’s five antiaircraft batteries shoot the plane down?

Well the obvious answer would be because there aren't any...

How did you come up with 5 anyway? Nobody has ever seen 1, much less 5? Did you just count the number of sides and figured that sounded right?

Troll threeway!

My goodness, Ronnie, Ernie, and Jimbob all posting on one thread. You don't see that every day. This is more than fellashillo -- it's ... what? any suggestions?

Trying Hard

They are really trying hard..... Digging down deep..... breaking out all their little trophies....

I'm just waiting for the "Money Shot"!

You tried - but you could not make nonsense work.

Se we spanked you all over this forum....

There are plenty of real conspiracies in America. Why make up fake ones? Every few years, property czars and city government in New York conspire to withhold fire company responses, so that enough of a neighborhood burns down for the poor to quit and for profitable gentrification to ensue. That\'s a conspiracy to commit ethnic cleansing, also murder.

It\'s happening today in Brooklyn, even as similar ethnic cleansing and gentrification is scheduled in San Francisco. Bayview Hunters Point is the last large black community in the Bay Area, sitting on beautiful bay front property. So now it\'s the time to move the black folks out. As Willie Ratcliff, publisher of Bay View writes, \"If the big developers and their puppets, the mayor [Democrat Gavin Newsom] and his minions win this war, they\'ll have made what may be the largest urban renewal land grab in the nation\'s history: some 2,200 acres of San Francisco, the city with the highest priced land on earth.\"

That\'s a real conspiracy, even as many in the Bay Area left meander through the blind alleys of 9/11 conspiracism.

Machiavelli points out that every conspirator you add to the plot has less chance of preserving secrecy than the previous one. The 9/11 group in fact did tell people about their plans in various ways but the prevailing belief that Arabs couldn\'t do it prevented any of the revelations from being taken seriously. The view that a bunch of Arabs with box cutters couldn\'t do it was precisely the cover they needed.

The conspiracy virus is an old strand: The Russians couldn\'t possibly build an A bomb without Commie traitors. The Russians are too dumb. Hitler couldn\'t have been defeated by the Red Army marching across Eastern Europe and half Germany. Traitors let it happen. JFK couldn\'t have been shot by Oswald--it had to be the CIA. There are no end to examples seeking to prove that Russians, Arabs, Viet Cong, Japanese, etc etc couldn\'t possibly match the brilliance and cunning of secret cabals of white Christians. It\'s all pathetic but it does save the trouble of reading and thinking.

We\'ve given over considerable space to scrutiny of the 9/11 conspiracy mongers, because the brew of misunderstood or willfully ignored physics and surreal political caricature has been having a toxic effect on the left. It\'s easy enough to proclaim one\'s readiness \"to speak truth to power\", as the self-regarding tag line goes. As yet, that\'s not a very perilous thing to do, here in America, at least on the part of the folks who like to use the phrase. But to speak truth to people overwhelmed with a sense of powerlessness and hence ready to credit Bush and Cheney with supernatural powers of efficient evil--that\'s one of our functions at CounterPunch. There\'s no point in marching forward under the banner of illusions.

http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn12302006.html

Garbage a trois?????

They must be really threatened by this particular article. It seems to bring them out from under their particular rocks.

Remember....

2006 will always be remembered as the year the 9/11 Truth Movement took its final Death Plunge. Pretty soon, you will be apologizing to us.

This is one of the better threads.

This thread, more than most, shows the utter depravity and hopelessness of the 9/11 Truth Movement as you are unable to defend yourselves from basic facts about 9/11, starting with the fact that the article which forms this thread is over two years old and the content has been repeatedly debunked since then.

How can you sit there and not know that you are making asses of yourselves pretending that objective reality does not exist..

What will it take to get through your dense heads that you have all gone completely nutters on all your 9/11 fantasies? You have nothing that is remotely real evidence.

Just what in hell is the matter with you that you refuse to think?

I can tell this took you

I can tell this took you some time to compile and I commend you for your effort. It looks really good. We need more lists like these in the face of Americans so they can see what coincidence theorists they really are.

Also, a comment to all 911

Also, a comment to all 911 bloggers. In the face of this flagrant trolling and distractions, I recommend people write up their opinion/comment before viewing what others have written. We need to stop responding to the distractions which lead no where but into pointless argumentation. Post your constructive comments/insights before jumping into the landmine that many of these blogs have become. Minimize through voting, and avoid responding to the posts that are clearly distracting you from constructive commentary regarding excellent posts like the one above.

Show "Let's See Something for Once" by Ronald Wieck

The winner is... "garbage a trois"

I'm sure I'm not the only one thoroughly bored by the repetitive tripe being spewed by the Official Fantasy boys. I suggest it is time to ignore them or simply give them a dose of their own medicine (such as Erin's recent responses.) They lack the courtesy to formulate substantive arguments and substitute the same dreary, unimaginative insults again and again, and they do not deserve the courtesy of being taken seriously by anyone here.

As Chris has wondered aloud, what in the world would bring grown men to a site they despise (and where they are despised) for days on end? (Other than a paycheck, of course.) I suggest that the most likely explanation is a kind of fetish or perversion. Evidently, it is possible to form a sexual fixation on the kind of loathing response they evoke from us. Therefore, rather than feed their unhealthy appetites, I suggest that when you are tempted to respond to them, you remember that in all likelihood they are typing with a single hand.

disturbing image

Thanks for the year end laugh Casseia. Your last line brought a chuckle.
In the dwinling hours of this year I wish to express that I have enjoyed my many visits to this community this past year. It has been very entertaining and I am thankful for the opportunity to express myself although I have never claimed to have any answers, only questions. I think 2007 will be a banner year for truth despite every effort by our one-hand typing friends to change our minds. I especially want to thank the hosts of 911blogger for this great site. Everyone have a safe new years eve and a happy and successful new year.
YEEEHAW Party time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Show "Something Missing" by Ronald Wieck

Wotcher! You tell, her

Wotcher! You tell, her Ronnie! And the fact that you spend HOURS at a site where you are clearly despised just shows your super human dedication to exposing the charade of 911Trooth! We should all thank you...for, um, SOMETHING! Thankfully-like! I opened MY eyes! Aye, aye!

And now, on this most hopeful New Year, I dedicate this most solemn time to my only true hero--Ron Wieck..Trolling tirelessly for democracy!!!

Now lets get those towel-heads--nuke Iran!!!

No Chance

Nothing can open your eyes, Sparks. The phrase "Invincible Ignorance" was invented just for you. You are completely impervious to logic and evidentiary reasoning.

You're not making any sense,

You're not making any sense, Ronnie. Can't you tell from my post I'm with you? It's a victory, mate! You rescued a troofer! Celebrate!

But don't get pissed--that'll ruin your reading comprehension. Party hard on New Years, did yeh? We'll that explains it--I forgive you. Reasonable people like us can get past these little missunderstandings--unlike those Troofers, eh?

NUKE IRAN TODAY!!

Challenge Accepted--Too Bad You'll Decline

Gee, Andrew, you sound so sincere. And you are so good at presenting the real Twoof. Let's see, now:

You could start by showing us a few errors in the Protec paper. You've been promising us for months. That should be simple enough. Brent Blanchard is merely a demolition expert, while you are a universal genius. Tell us where he goes wrong.

Here's another easy one: The avionics tech who writes as "Apathoid" has written a paper (available on 911myths.com, in "Investigations, more") explaining why Boeing 767s and 757s are not wire-to-wire planes and cannot be flown by remote control. Now, we will agree that the reality of actual hijackers flying actual planes into buildings is, shall we say, somewhat inconvenient to the fantasy movement. Show us what Apathoid gets wrong. Hint: a conspiracy liar who calls himself "Remove_Bush" is currently taking a shot at this on JREF (see the thread, "How Loony are the Loons?"). He is not doing too well. To be more precise, the avionics techs, flight computer specialists, and NASA engineers are, frankly, tearing him a new one. I guess they're all shills, right. Why not drop in and show them what they're missing? Should be easy for you to put these dummies in their place, no?

You might want to warm up on this one: Dr. Frank Greening, a mere molecular chemist with a side of radiation physics, has written a paper demolishing Jim Hoffman's bogus science (again available on 911myths.com, in "Investigations, more"). Greening, a Welshman now living in Canada, doesn't think very highly of George Bush, but we'll pretend that he's another shill (defined as someone whose arguments can't be refuted). I think that if you rescued Hoffman and exposed Greening as a know-nothing, you would go a long way toward changing my belief that conspiracy liars are ignorant frauds.

Here's one off the top of my head: Jim Fetzer suffered a humiliating beating at the hands of J.R. Dunn in their debate on americanthinker.com. Dunn made it appear as though poor Fetzer didn't have the slightest idea of what the hell he was talking about--that old Jim couldn't distinguish an A-3 from an A-4. I think you should set the record straight. Show us why the military historian Dunn is all wet when he tries to discuss military aircraft.

You might want to look into Bernacchia's paper on the Flight 77 hijackers. He's a longtime pilot and flight instructor who wrote a paper (see 911myths.com) explaining in great detail how Hanjour, et al., accomplished their mission. One of the frauds on this blog has already announced that he wouldn't even consider attempting to refute Bernacchia. Why not display some cajones and tell us where this misguided shill goes wrong?

Well, I gave the matter some serious thought. You won't give it any thought at all. Aren't you lucky that the people here don't care and will refuse to draw any conclusions?

Show "Let's See Some BALLZ" by Ronald Wieck

Will you defend the Osama Tape then?

Do you take the Osama confession tape at face value?

The Osama Conundrum

Sure, why not? I became interested in the Osama tapes when Les Jamieson showed me some propaganda falsely claiming that the man on the video wasn't really Osama. It displayed a photo of bin Laden with his cheeks crinkled up and his nose shortened. Curious, I found the video and watched it. My, oh my, the guy in the video looked EXACTLY like Osama, except in the one shot that the conspiracy liars used for their misleading flyer. Now, how effing dumb can you be to hang your case on ONE bad photo when you INVITE people to watch the whole video?! I mean, you could try to get away with the deception if you pretended that the one bad photo was representative of the whole video, BUT IT AIN'T! Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Incidentally, fantasists who bring up these videos are stepping on the third rail. I call it, the Osama conundrum. Let me explain:

Osama is either alive or dead (I suspect he's alive, but I can't be certain). We'll first assume that he's alive. Okay, why doesn't he complain about the words the fake Osama, the actor who looks EXACTLY like him, is putting in his mouth? The actor, of course, says all the things the real Osama would say to humiliate Bush and fire up his followers, but we'll play along. For some inexplicable reason, the real Osama disapproves of the message being spread by the fake Osama. Why doesn't he complain?

Next, we'll assume that the Impossibly Vast Conspiracy knows that there is no real Osama. Here comes the tough one: why didn't they announce that they had killed him? Think about it, if you can: Bush was staring at a disastrous election defeat last fall. To pull his fat out of the fire, he had only to announce that, at long last, we got the bad guy. Bush will never run for anything ever again. This was the VERY LAST CHANCE to play the Osama card. What the hell was he waiting for? Did he enjoy taking a beating that sharply reduced his power? Maybe he wants Hillary to get credit for bagging Osama?

Try to concoct an explanation for the Impossibly Vast Conspiracy's failure to announce the killing of bin Laden that makes even a tiny bit of sense from your perspective. On this planet, we understand that Bush couldn't announce that he had nailed the terror chief, because as soon as he did, Osama would surface in a video thumbing his nose. But what about your world? There is no Osama, yet Bush can't reap any benefits from announcing his death. Hmmm, mighty strange, I'd say. My advice is to steer well clear of this little problem.

Hmmm

But he did originally claim innocence and point at elements within the US gov. as being responsible. http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/.
And what about the fellow being right handed when bl was left handed?

Bad Info

The original claim of innocence was ritualistic. Al Qaeda websites have been trumpeting their victory right from the start. The accuracy of the information stating that Osama is left-handed is highly suspect. The FBI lists his height as several inches greater than it really is. Bottom line: we don't which hand he favors, or exactly how tall he is.

Ritualistic meaning propagandistic?

So he has said one thing publicly but then been 'caught' on tape (grainy, bad sound, lucky find, great timing politically here, providing the only proof) contradicting himself.
And yet with all the bad info we have for recognising him, we still CAN say that the guy in the tape is the real Osama?

No Escape

Sorry, the Osama Conundrum is the death of the fantasy movement. Once trapped in its coils, escape is impossible.

Although the Osama tapes are surely real (everyone in the Middle East finds them completely believable), the Osama Conundrum requires that we pretend that they are fakes. An actor who looks EXACTLY like bin Laden is impersonating him and putting words into his mouth.

Now, why doesn't the "real" Osama complain?

I know--he's dead; he isn't there.

Now, here comes the tough one: why didn't the Bushies, faced with a looming disaster last Novemeber, simply announce that Osama had been killed? The Impossibly Vast Conspiracy, we've noticed, can orchestrate a gigantic, Rube-Goldbergish operation that requires the complicity of thousands of engineers, demolition experts, avionics techs, architects, physicists, air traffic controllers, the entire Boeing Corporation, NORAD, the FAA, FEMA, NIST, police and fire departments, the CIA, the FBI and on and on, BUT--they can't plant WMD in Iraq, or remember to make ANY of the imaginary hijackers Iraqis or Afghanis, AND THEY CAN"T KILL A MAN WHO DOESN'T EXIST.

Think about it. This was positively the LAST OPPORTUNITY they will EVER have for playing the Osama card. What the hell were they waiting for?

Yes, I understand what you're experiencing and no, there is no way out.

Haven't You Overlooked Something?

Uh, Andrew, you've kinda overlooked the fact that the lengthy reply I gave you HAS NOT been removed. I hate to be the one to break this to you, but IT'S STILL THERE. Now, unless the suspicion is true that you enjoy being laughed at, you can either respond to the SPECIFIC suggestions I made or continue your headlong flight.
Remember, the people here are on your side. I have accepted your "challenge" and demand, as usual, that you put up or shut up. The people here want to see you put me in my place. Show all of us that you are not the mindless fraud I portray you as.
Your audience is upset that you are pleading insanity. I have thrown down the gauntlet. Respond, or keep running.

(Repost) Challenge Accepted--Too Bad You'll Decline

As you are clearly in the throes of a nervous breakdown that renders you incapable of reading my reply on the previous page, I have helpfully transferred it to this page. Here is my acceptance of your "challenge," as posted yesterday. Maybe you can just keep pretending that I haven't responded. What the hell, Sparks might buy it.
***********************

Gee, Andrew, you sound so sincere. And you are so good at presenting the real Twoof. Let's see, now:

You could start by showing us a few errors in the Protec paper. You've been promising us for months. That should be simple enough. Brent Blanchard is merely a demolition expert, while you are a universal genius. Tell us where he goes wrong.

Here's another easy one: The avionics tech who writes as "Apathoid" has written a paper (available on 911myths.com, in "Investigations, more") explaining why Boeing 767s and 757s are not wire-to-wire planes and cannot be flown by remote control. Now, we will agree that the reality of actual hijackers flying actual planes into buildings is, shall we say, somewhat inconvenient to the fantasy movement. Show us what Apathoid gets wrong. Hint: a conspiracy liar who calls himself "Remove_Bush" is currently taking a shot at this on JREF (see the thread, "How Loony are the Loons?"). He is not doing too well. To be more precise, the avionics techs, flight computer specialists, and NASA engineers are, frankly, tearing him a new one. I guess they're all shills, right. Why not drop in and show them what they're missing? Should be easy for you to put these dummies in their place, no?

You might want to warm up on this one: Dr. Frank Greening, a mere molecular chemist with a side of radiation physics, has written a paper demolishing Jim Hoffman's bogus science (again available on 911myths.com, in "Investigations, more"). Greening, a Welshman now living in Canada, doesn't think very highly of George Bush, but we'll pretend that he's another shill (defined as someone whose arguments can't be refuted). I think that if you rescued Hoffman and exposed Greening as a know-nothing, you would go a long way toward changing my belief that conspiracy liars are ignorant frauds.

Here's one off the top of my head: Jim Fetzer suffered a humiliating beating at the hands of J.R. Dunn in their debate on americanthinker.com. Dunn made it appear as though poor Fetzer didn't have the slightest idea of what the hell he was talking about--that old Jim couldn't distinguish an A-3 from an A-4. I think you should set the record straight. Show us why the military historian Dunn is all wet when he tries to discuss military aircraft.

You might want to look into Bernacchia's paper on the Flight 77 hijackers. He's a longtime pilot and flight instructor who wrote a paper (see 911myths.com) explaining in great detail how Hanjour, et al., accomplished their mission. One of the frauds on this blog has already announced that he wouldn't even consider attempting to refute Bernacchia. Why not display some cajones and tell us where this misguided shill goes wrong?

Well, I gave the matter some serious thought. You won't give it any thought at all. Aren't you lucky that the people here don't care and will refuse to draw any conclusions?

Submitted by Ronald Wieck on Mon, 01/01/2007 - 3:29pm.

"What the hell, Sparks

"What the hell, Sparks might buy it."

Right you are, Ronnie--I agree with everything you've written here!

In fact I should tell you I've blogged a Tribute dedicated to all your efforts--assuming I get past the "censorship" process! Ha, ha!

In fact, once published, I would encourage EVERYONE here who has something to say to Ronald Wieck, to come over and post it in the comments there, along with-Hopefully!-your poem!

greenback's been quite a dear having us, but it IS time to leave this blog for those who wish to discuss 911twoof, as opposed to praising Ronnie's many talents!

Hugs and kisses!!!

Conclusion

Jenny, you may have noticed that your hopelssly garbled attempt to slander the researchers at NIST--hundreds of Democrats, Republicans, and purely apolitical people--didn't work too well. Can we bring down the curtain here? I mean, I can continue asking what evidence you conspiracy liars have that might open my eyes and you'll continue making a horse's ass of yourself. We get the idea: YOU HAVE NOTHING.

Enough, Fraud

No, you sniveling liar, your question was, what would it take to open my eyes? I have suggested several avenues of approach.

C'mon, fraud, either grow a backbone or surrender.

Please, let's stop talking

Please, let's stop talking about trollers and disinfo. That's all we do in these blogs people! Minimize and move on. Don't respond and by doing so enable and fuel them. They want you to respond, they want you to get frustrated, they want you not to discuss and contemplate the excellent blog and facts that head this blog.

Remember, before you look at the comments, read the article and write your constructive opinion, then look at what filth has been spewed, minimize it, and ignore it! We need more constructive comments and opinions. MINIMIZE -- IGNORE

Just give their comment a negative response and move on

Don't respond to their intellectually dishonest malady. Just move on and build constructive discussion of the points in the article.

"Constructive" Discussion--Hilarious!

Conspiracy liars don't have much of a choice. They have nothing--absolutely no evidence--to support their insane fantasies. They can't possibly debate the issues (notice what happened to Fetzer and the Loose Change boys). They can continue to hurl mindless abuse at their intellectual superiors or they can slink away with their tails between their legs.

The house of cards has collapsed.

They're just warming up for 2007, they know that their backs

are against the wall and they are working overtime to convince anyone who will listen that 9/11 Truth has peaked and that the movement is in decline.

(You hoo! Just because YOU think it doesn't make it reality.)

As I have said before, and will undoubtedly be saying again, this is negative confirmation of how desperate they are becoming and their wasted attempts to stem the tide that is against them. Their increasingly hysterical and irrational behavior only drives more people toward 9/11 Truth.

All we need to do is calmly counter the disinformation, ignore the insults and continue to state the true facts as we expand our grassroots efforts. We have truth and the laws of physics on our side.

We are winning, brothers and sisters, more people are waking up every day and once they realize the truth they never go back and will not accept any limited hangout options.

In honor of these three irrational government conspiracy supporters I'm headed out to my sign shop.

BIG SMILE

The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.

Be well.

Show "Big Problem" by Ronald Wieck

Yes, Mr. Wieck, you do have a BIG PROBLEM, you are on the wrong

side of history and science. Those of us in the 9/11 Truth movement support constitutional law and the validity of the scientific method, you clearly do not.

Your attempts at re-branding the 9/11 Truth movement will not work no matter how hard you try.

Very soon the vast majority of Americans will accept what their common sense tells them: that their President sat in a classroom for over 30 minutes while the country was under attack and did nothing AND that a 47-story building was totally destroyed in 6.7 seconds in an obvious and classic textbook controlled demolition.

These facts are irrefutable and once every American has been made aware of them anyone complicit in the cover-up will be liable for prosecution.

As for your "mountain of real evidence", that's YOUR problem isn't it? For WTC 1,2 & 7 to have collapsed gravitationally there should have been a mountain of concrete and other debris piled a dozen or so stories high, but there isn't any, is there? Almost all that is left are the large steel columns and beams, just about everything else was pulverized into very find dust and you have no way to explain that, do you? Then there were the large structural members that were ejected horizontally and which impaled adjacent buildings, gravity simply cannot account for this, so you have yet another problem, yes? And while you like to ridicule the massive pyroclastic dust clouds that everyone in the world has seen, the simple fact is no gravitational collapse would have produced this. Add to that the large amounts of molten metal and you really have a big problem, don't you?

Now before you start crying about all the experts and your beloved NIST report, please remember that the NIST report states that it only (pretends to) describe "collapse initiation" and not the actual "collapse" of the Twin Towers. So all your government experts and all your government engineers (who refuse to debate anyone, btw) still have not actually explained how any of the buildings were destroyed at near free-fall speed. You are familiar with the term pathological science, are you not?

Mr. Wieck, you and Mr. Roberts seem to enjoying playing word games with Mr. Silverstein's quote and that's fine. Just remember that we are always going to be here with our stopwatches timing those buildings as they fall at near free-fall speed and NO rhetorical games you or anyone else can play will change those facts and the laws of physics.

If you wish to continue to come to 911Blogger and demonstrate your willful ignorance and contempt for the laws of physics and display your general lack of intelligent discourse, that is your choice. Were I to have taken your unfortunate position in this matter I think that I would be considering relocation abroad. I understand ranches in Paraguay are very popular right now.

For the record: I hate no one and I never scream.

The truth shall set (most of) us free. (Others are going to Leavenworth)

Love is the only way forward.

Enough! YOU are wrong.

The entire 9/11 Truth [sic] Movement has always been wrong. That you are either incapable of thinking or are intentionally denying the evidence does not matter.

How you could possibly deny the evidence, repeat known falsehoods debunked YEARS ago, and pretend you know more than every other forensic scientist, structural engineer, and demolition expert, and think you could actually get away with it, is incredibly sick.

Rational people can only look at you as performing freaks at a circus. You make no sense, you cannot get anything right, you contradict your own claims daily, and you jump around like bucking broncos at a rodeo desperately trying to shake off the real truth about 9/11.

Let us all be honest here: you people are complete and utter crackpots who, for whatever reason, have chosen to rebel against reason, rational thinking, and truth.

You need to seek professional help to rid yourselves of your insidious disease, give up the nonsense you spew about 9/11, and rejoin the human race.

Pure ad hominem attack, you really need help

anonymous (Mr. Wieck).

The increasingly unstable tone of your posts has me concerned that you're about to have a psychotic break. Please seek immediate help.

Repeat after me:

47-stories in 6.7 seconds

47-stories in 6.7 seconds

47-stories in 6.7 seconds

Now say: CONTROLLED DEMOLITION

BTW - happy TRUTH year!

The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.

You cannot even count, you poor kid.

My God, after all these years of watching the full collapse of WTC 7, you cannot even count all by yourself!.

Amazing!

Anybody that has learned to use a watch can count the time it took WTC 7 collapse. And you are still willing to accept what your 9/11 Truth [sic] Movement handlers tell you?

You poor kid!

Now listen up. Look at the CBS video and count the time it took for WTC 7 to collapse from beginning to end. (Block those psychic signals from your handlers by first removing your tin-foil hat.)

Start counting. You see! It took over 13 seconds for WTC 7 to collapse.

Duh!

________________

The standard of proof these people require of us is different than the standard of proof they require of themselves.

- Tom Kean, co-chair of the 9/11 Commission, commenting on 9/11 conspiracy theorists, 09/08/2006,
Behind the Closed Doors of the 9/11 Commission
http://hancock.constitutioncenter.org/media/9-11_commission_2/9-11_commi...

2006 is the year in which the 9/11 Truth Movement began its Death Plunge.
- The Real World, 12/30/2006

Lefty is a Liar

Okay, I've been repeating:

Lefty is an ignorant liar.

Lefty is an ignorant liar.

Lefty is an ignorant liar.

By the way, try timing the collapse of WTC 7. I'm afraid your deception wasn't a very good one.

btw - You didn't reply to the facts

Why am I not surprised?

47-stories in 6.7 seconds

Happy Truth Year!

(please get the help you so clearly need)

The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.

Yawn

Nobody cares about your factoids. There is no evidence for controlled demolition in WTC 7. There is no coherent narrative that fits the collapse of WTC 7 into the Impossibly vast Conspiracy's mad schemes. Of course, don't dare read Mark Roberts's paper on the subject. It contain too many of those nasty facts. Tell us where all the demo experts go wrong. What do you know that they don't?

Smart Guy

Hey Ronald,
You ae a intelligent well connected guy.... getting that big Popular Mechanics paycheck.

Please round up a list of all the companies in the world who have ever demolished a structure over 30 stories (steel frame od otherwise) with-in a major metropolitin city scape.

Tell me who has a majority of all Guiness records for demolition.

Tell me who was responsible for the removal of the debris from the WTC and from Oklahoma City.

Tell me who had already been commissioned to give an estimate for the demolition of WTC #1 and WTC #2.

Tell me why your magazine is so damn respected? 70 to 80% of everything in your magazine is designed to peak interest in war machines, Advanced weaponry, Military Aircraft, Surveilance, NASA,
GOVERNMENT.

Keep doing our job.... Cause your rhetoric is weak!

Unfortunately you can not claim credit for your audience..... but you can keep riding someone elses coat tails.

When the Truth does rear it's head.... how will you plea? Because you will have to answer

Show "Hard to Tell" by Ronald Wieck

Impact Floors

Yes... the IMPLOSION does initiate from near the area of impact.

The upper floors immediately begin projecting dust and debris... prior to impacting any other floor... not the one below... not the one above.... Immediately!

The core columns could have been angle cut up to 40 feet below impact zone to pull the structure in on itself.

Thermite could have been used to basicly melt the upper portion of the structure.... a time release collapse.... when the uppper floors start to go... drop the plumnger and bring the building down.

Three steel frame structures fall in one day when this has never happened before or since. They not only fell... they catastrophicly failed. Falling perfectly into their own footprint.

Not once but three times!

Three buildings with uncomparibly differing damage. Completely unique fire spread and impact damage. All falling in the exact same manner. Showing multiple characteristics of controlled demolition. All defying many elements of phsyics and all common sense. All three collapsing into their own footiprint at near free fall speed.

Top to Bottom.... Bottom to Top.... Left to Right..... however? the same questions are there. The multiple witnesses hearing explosions...and YOU can not hear a little logic.

What is your stumbling block? What is making you dismiss that there are questions here that need to be answered and the people who need to provide those answers?

Do you honestly believe that all the questions have been answered?

Popular Mechaincs.... The American Thinker (LOL).... Mad Magazine... whatever!..... your affiliations are clear

Learn Something

You do not understand anything about controlled demolition and seem unwilling to make any effort to learn. Photos of WTC 1 and 2 available widely show very clearly the INWARD BOWING of the external columns, exactly as NIST describes. As the core columns weakened, they exerted an inward pull on the floor trusses, which, in turn, tugged on the external columns. Structural damage, the severing of several core columns and outer columns where the planes struck, transferred insupportable loads to the remaining columns.

Stop repeating nonsensical myths. WTC 7 fell so "neatly" that it heavily damaged a building across the street. When demolition experts implode buildings, they don't require an eight-month cleanup period. No thermite was used in the WTC.

There isn't a demolition expert anywhere in the world who thinks that the Twin Towers were brought down by explosives--not one. No demolition expert thinks that the collapses in any way resemble controlled demolition. Why do you, who has no background in or understanding of the subject, know things that professionals in the field do not?

Our fraudulent playmate Andrew Lowe-Watson was laughed off the Conspiracy Smasher blog for repeatedly promising a critique of the Protec paper that he is manifestly incompetent to write. Have you read it? Google either "Brent Blanchard" or "Implosion World." Tell us what the author gets wrong.

Know This

What do I know?

This:

IF in fact those trusses were exerting any pulling force.... either the core columns pulling inward.... or the exterior coulumns bowing and pulling toward the outside.... or the trusses failing at the midspan and pulling on both the interior and core columns.....

THEN the clips holding those trusses up would have had to been stronger than the coulmns themselves. L-shaped clips welded to each column vs. square structural steel box columns. Clips which were in the same environment as the columns. Weakening to the same degree if not more being that the heat would rise and get trapped under the floor pans where the clips were located. Very strong Clips considering that these clips were designed to hold a downward force and not so much a lateral or puling force.

Then there is this:

"When demolition experts implode buildings, they don't require an eight-month cleanup period?"

Is this an argument? I can't believe I'm about to respond to this. Before I do maybe I should ask the point? So pleae indulge us. Point?

And what is your evidence of no Thermite?

We have molten metal that couldn't be cooled by a continuous stream of water from a fire hose for months after the attacks.... Thermite creates a chemical / elemental reaction which is unaffected by water.

Witnesses and recorded testimony of firefighters who saw the molten metal.

Video evidence of molten metal streaming out the side of the WTC prior to collapse.

We have tested debris with traces of element residue typical of the use of thermite / thermate.

We have giant masses of material ... fused concrete and steel and ??... never before seen in building collapses.... a fusing which would require very intensly high temperatures. A reaction that left clear traces of rust or Iron Oxde.

Thermite can burn between 6,000 to 12,000 dergees and leaves a iron oxide residue.

What do you have? a government controlled crime scene, evidence removal, government investigators, government photographers, Truck drivers with GPS tracked trucks. EPA saying the air was good when it was very evident it was not.

What do you got?

Show "Tough to Con" by Ronald Wieck

nonsense

Just because you can not understand it.... does not make it nonsense.

Ask any engineer with common sense without a government contract about those clips and they would agree that the clips would have failed long before the structural columns.

What were those peoples more plausable explanation for the trace elements... I missed that one.

Dr Frank Greening? I read his support for the pulverized concrete? I know you are not a physicist. but in this paper he manipulates his calculations. He created a number or his momentum based on a two story freefall of the upper floors of the building. Eliminating all resistance for that 20 ft fall. He then used that same number to figure the momentum for the remaining collapse.
The Manipulation of this one number amplified the energy of the collapse substantially!! Which is bunk science. He knew exactly which number he needed to manipulate in order to derive the sought solution.... which was the total collapse of the structure in the alloted time.

the same way the plane speed affected it's energy.... imagining doubling the speed of the plane and how it would effect it's energy.

Dr. Frank Greening Responds

I was sufficiently impressed by your willingness to debate that I sent your message to Dr. Greening, who, after all, is the best person to explain his own work. Here is his reply:

Hi Ron,

Well, I am impressed that this guy thinks that I "knew exactly which number (I) needed to manipulate in order to derive the sought solution...." He is giving me too much credit for the level of "insight" I had when I first started investigating the physics of the collapse of WTC 1 & 2.

I am not sure if I told you, but I have certainly told others, that I set up my calculation expecting it would show that the collapse would be arrested! So I was surprised when the calculation actually generated a self-sustaining collapse....

But the point is that you don't have to be a physics "genius" to realize that my parameter E1, which is the energy needed to collapse one floor, is the key parameter controlling the rate of collapse. Therefore it makes sense that one can increase the value of this parameter up to the point that the collapse is arrested. But, be that as it may, the value of E1 I arrived at (~0.6 gigajoules) turns out to be essentially the same as the value estimated by Bazant et al. and is therefore probably close to "reality". My current feeling is that E1 is actually somewhat higher than my first estimate, and is probably ~ 1 gigajoule. This is because of the need to include extra energies involved in destroying a floor such as the energy for concrete pulverization; however, an E1 of 1 gigajoule is still insufficient to arrest the collapse. In addition, E1 also undoubtedly gets larger as you go down a tower, but the associated increase in the kinetic energy of the falling upper block of floors more than compensates for this.

You know it's funny how these guys get p###ed off when a calculation doesn't confirm their intuitions or beliefs. Ironically, these same guys are quite happy to accept without further scrutiny the specious results of "calculations" by the likes of Jim Hoffman or Judy Wood, simply because such calculations support their pre-conceived ideas!

People also once believed that a heavy object falls faster than a lighter one ....

Best Regards,

Frank

Priceless

Absolutely priceless! A distinguished molecular chemist takes the trouble to respond to a poster on a tiny site populated by fringe extremists and ignoramuses assign a negative grade! It doesn't get any better.

No, you couldn't possibly hope to LEARN anything from a real scientist. Blind, unreasoning fools.

LeftWright, don't waste your

LeftWright, don't waste your time and effort.... MINIMIZE -- IGNORE! You're not going to convince them. And are only encouraging them.

Impasse

My beliefs, unlike yours, are FALSIFIABLE. You can change them with EVIDENCE. Your problem is that you have no evidence. Your bigger problem is that your beliefs are impervious to the mountain of evidence that contradicts them.

Neither of us can persuade the other. You can't persuade me because I have examined your arguments and find that they contain no facts. I can't persuade you because you are unpersuadable.

Show "Refuting the Irrefutable" by Ronald Wieck

47-stories in 6.7 seconds

Please explain that, Mr. Wieck, and no hiding behind the skirts of your experts and engineers. Clearly you have had no education in basic physics.

That you would compare a building with 47 massive steel box columns in its core and 240 steel box columns around its perimeter to "a structure made of popsicle sticks" is more than a little ridiculous, don't you think?

Could you possibly be more disingenuous?

In keeping with your simplistic attempt at explaining what happened, but making it a more accurate model of reality, let's do this:

1) I'll be generous and allow that the top 1/3 of the building "crushed" the lower 2/3's (even though it was considerably less).

2) Now, returning to your bowling ball analogy: suspend the bowling ball over a mass equal to two bowling balls, now release it....

I think we all know what happens next.

BTW - I didn't see any "bowling balls" in the photos of the WTC demolition site, did you?

You sir are, clearly, intellectually bankrupt.

I will not waste any more time "debating" someone who lacks any integrity, whatsoever.

Happy TRUTH year.

The truth shall set (most of) us free. Love is the only way forward.

Show "Fantasist Disingenuousness" by Ronald Wieck

For the record, Mr. Wieck, which buildings have

47 massive steel core box columns and 240 steel peripheral box columns?

Since you seem to not even know which buildings I was describing it is obvious how little knowledge you have.

Or perhaps you were being disingenuous again?

In any case, your rhetorical charades here and elsewhere are transparent to almost everyone. Your shameless attempts at rewriting history and the laws of physics would be laughable were it not for the 3,000 people who were murdered on 9/11/01 and the hundreds of thousands more who have been maimed and killed in the false "global war on terrorism."

You are clearly a person with no ethics, morals or personal integrity as well as being someone who is completely intellectually bankrupt.

Tell me, when the postions you have taken are shown to be false and those you presently stand with are going to prison, what will you say? Will you still stand with them?

Happy TRUTH year.

The truth shall set (most of) us free. Love is the only way forward.

Another Fraud Goes Down in Flames

Well, lefty, your doubletalk may have conned the rubes, but it failed completely with me. YOU are the conspiracy liar: I am the rationalist. YOU are the one caught rewriting the laws of physics and YOU are the disingenuous one.
You say you want a debate on physics? The physicists at JREF will be happy to provide you with a debate. Oops! I guess you don't really want that debate, after all.
Fantasists keep pretending that the real scientists got something wrong in explaining the collapses of the WTC complex. If so, why can't the liars explain exactly what the real scientists are missing? Try it at JREF. Let's see how you fare.

47 stories in 6.7 seconds

Funny how you NEVER answer anyone's questions, especially mine.

And now you hide behind your JREF goons.

Very unbecoming, Mr. Wieck.

The truth shall set (most of ) us free. Love is the only way forward.

Repeat Answers

Your answer, once again, is that you are lying when you claim that WTC 7 collapsed in 6.7 seconds. You are aware of that fact.
You were lying when you claimed that you wanted to debate the physics of the collapse. JREF awaits you.

You poor kid. You NEVER answered my question, LeftWright.

Tsk...tsk.

Now, I thought you would have learned how to count after your spanking yesterday, Leftwright.

Please DO tell us how you compress the 13+ seconds of the total collapse of WTC 7, seen live on CBS on 9/11 and preserved for posterity, into 6.7 seconds.

For reference, here is the video you pretend does not exist:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3419955702566355918&q=%22wtc+7%22

I am sure everyone here want to know how you achieved this miracle. Or will you, as is the habit of the 9/11 Truth [sic] Movement, continue to completely ignore physics and evidence to suit your desired conclusion?

You do have an answer, do you not, LeftWright?

Show "Do you agree with this statement?" by Anonymous (not verified)

not linear thinking....

Actually, linear thinking is not the issue. Many scientists utilize both linear analysis, intuition and wholistic thinking. But when they explain theory they rely upon the scientific method which relies upon empirical data and follows the hypothetico-deductive model.

There are many other aspects of human beings which are more useful to analyze responses to 9/11. They include, importantly, denial. Anybody who has had intro to psych 101 knows what that is. Also, various personality disorders would be relevant... particularly in the denial process. Another issue is that some simply cannot believe their government would do such a thing. Note the intro to 9/11 Mysteries in which the speaker talks about being so determined to prove 9/11 truth wrong. The credit is to his intellect and his intellectual honesty that he admits he could not. The shills on this sight may be simply folks who are determined to prove 9/11 truth false but they lack the intellectual honesty and courage to follow the evidence. But,more likely they are simply shills who act at the direction of their 'handlers'..... little bitty mockingbirds.....

btw regarding age....... one of the shills (above) was involved in the issue of his age..... My bet is that he was one of the 'young republicans' back in the late 60's or early 70's who exhibited the same inability to engage in rational discourse as do the present shills. btw, again, I was there to watch them. So I am an older person. But, as a scientist, and having experienced various other events back then, it came as no surprise to me that our government was equally involved in 9/11. The data, a portion of which is presented in this very good presentation, is simply overwhelming. Coherent and logical. Shills have a hard time with this.

However, sorry to ramble. I just drove back from Ohio to NC today. And I though I would comment. I take along many copies of 9/11 Mysteries etc. and pass them out to all I encounter on the trip. Up and back for my Dad's 95 birthday. Even he expressed wonder and concern about WTC 7. (and he is an electrical engineer who still balances his checkbook - to the penny - by hand!) Many I talked with expressed their significant doubts about the government and 9/11. All accepted my dvd's.....

"There are none so hoplessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free" (Goethe)..... a paraphrase from V: Cast aside the illusions. Only when you are finally hopeless can you truly be free.

Let's hear it for Ronald Zwick

Ronald Wieck, you must be gunning for Shill of the Year Award. Or maybe you had a quota to fill for 2006?
You may well hold the record for most comments (24) and most negative points (-162) of any blog here.

But your style barely gets a “C.” Please try some new tactics; we’re tired of the same old rhetorical tricks:
--insult your audience.
--make sweeping statements denying something you can’t argue with.
--claim flatly that something has been debunked, when it’s still being debated.
--ignore common sense.
--refer to proven facts as lies, falsehoods, fantasies, and canards.
--cite sources that cite other sources that cite no sources.
--rely on “experts” whose credentials are questionable.

Here’s a good explanation of informal fallacies to help improve your reasoning skills in the new year:
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Clear_Thinking/Informal_Fallacies/Infor...

I don’t think you’ll get the award, but nice try.

Show "Fantasists Exposed Again" by Ronald Wieck

That's right, EVIL! These

That's right, EVIL! These troofers--of which I was one-- are EVIL incarnate! Say it like it is, Ronnie!

Never mind some might think that's an over blown, hysterical, and irrational argument for a man of your reasoning skills--you just stick to your guns, Ronnie! EVIL is not just for politically corrupted religons, its for troofers too! True EVIL, that's what we're dealing with. And anyone who disagress with me and Ronnie are Troofer Evil!

Don't laugh! I hear you laughing! Evil doer!

Like Bush, Stay the Course, Ronnie, and NEVER admit you're wrong--democracy will thank you!

NUKE IRAN NOW!!!!

LOL!

LOL!

EVIL DOER!!!!

EVIL DOER!!!!

Shared Evil

On September 11, 2001, a well-trained, well-financed group of jihadists murdered three thousand civilians in attacks on American institutions. By attempting to exonerate these monsters of their heinous crimes, the misguided fantasy movement shares their evil.

Yes, the people who swallowed Hitler's bogus science were stupid, but their stupidity paved the way to incalculable human suffering. The stupidity and blind ignorance of the followers of tinfoil-hat fools like Fetzer, Wood, and Barrett does not excuse their moral idiocy. By mocking the victims and slandering the families of the victims, they show themselves to be beneath contempt.

Stop raving and show us some EVIDENCE for your insane myths.

What are you talking about?

What are you talking about? Can't you tell from my post I AGREE with you? You want evidence I agree with you? Or are you saying agreeing with you is an insane myth?

Ronnie, love, you should wait a several hours after the New Years hangover is gone before you post. Just saying.

Cheery Bye!

Points

Ronald,
So 19 fanatical arab hijackers, (who, according to MSNBC attended strip clubs and wore silk and gold in the weeks leading up to the attack) planned their attack on America for years! This was the big one, the big strike that would wake America up and start the holy Jihad war, right?
So, why on God's green Earth, would their planned strike require TOTAL failure by the U.S. Government and military to be successful?
What kind of IDIOT "masterminded" this attack that required the following lucky coincidences to pull off?

* At least 5 of the hijackers were on the no fly list. All 5 (at least) would have to have made it past flight security without anyone finding out their identity. How hard is it for a murder suspect to fly out of town? On 9/11, at least FIVE not only flew on that day, but numerous times to and from Afghanistan in the years leading up to the attacks without being spotted.
OK, maybe that's probable...but coupled with the following points? Not a chance.

*Once onboard the aircraft, they were able to seize the controls from all four of the (mostly military-trained) pilot's. Why would ALL 8 pilots give up their controls to hijackers who had only small knives and boxcutters? You're telling me only United 93 fought back and crashed into the ground? Why wouldn't the other 3 planes at least fight back especially when they realized they were in New York City?

*Once they had taken control of all 4 airplanes with relatively no resistence, NORAD didn't even have one single plane scrambled in the area ALMOST TWO HOURS after the first plane was reported hijacked. This, of course, is the most baffling of all considering normal response time is 20 minutes tops.
Could this have anything to do with Dick Cheney being put in charge of NORAD just MONTHS before the attack?
How about the planned drills that were being run on the same morning which simulated the same events?
Hmmmm...nah, all coincidence!

*Next, and finally, they all hit their targets perfectly. Anyone who's ever been a pilot would tell you those targets are extremely hard to hit (especially the Pentagon, and ESPECIALLY with no FAA asistance).

Why didn't all 19 hijackers simply suicide bomb themselves in 19 different cities in america?
That would have 100,000 times the effect but we wouldn't have that one stabalizing image of planes hitting the towers, changing our lives forever.

Think about it...

Serious Questions? Nah!

You waste everyone's time asking questions that have been answered over and over. If you lack sufficient interest to read the relevant parts of the 9/11 Commission Report, the Popular Mechanics book, the detailed sections on 911myths.com. (in particular, Bernacchia's paper on the piloting skills of the hijackers), and Kean and Hamilton's book, why pretend to have questions? What you have are talking points, ones that have been debunked repeatedly. Do you want me to copy and paste thousands of words?

All right, I'll start you off with a link that addresses these issues:

http://911myths.com/html/hijackers.html

If you are truly so intellectually uncurious that you won't even attempt to discover what has been written on these subjects, your only alternative is to do what almost everyone else on these fantasy sites does: hurl childish abuse, announce some sort of imaginary victory, and retreat into your comfortable dreamworld.

Dear Ronald Wieck

Anything you want to prove has got the government seal of approval all over it. Lock, Stock, and the American majority over the barrel. So now this same government has mass weapons of civil destruction (our own) at its disposal.
Answer just a few questions I have, and prove to everyone here that We should trust everything the government has done is legit.

1). Why was the Patriot Act written before 9/11? What is it needed for?
2). Why were We told that Saddam Hussein and Al-Queda were allied together, when it was a lie?
3). Why did the government lie when We were told Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction at the time Iraq had been monitored 24/7 since 1991?
4). Why were We told the mastermind behind these "attacks" was Osama Bin Laden? And the FBI has found no connection between OBL and 9/11?
5). Why won't the government release details about the "Bojinka" plots they discovered in 1994, which were a strikingly similar blueprint compared to 9/11?
6). Why did Dietrich Snell become Senior counsel on the 9/11 commission when his office received these details of the bojinka plot in 1995, and then consequently ignored it completely in the 9/11 investigation?
7). What was the purpose of operation Able Danger?
8) Why was John O' Neil, the most knowledgeable agent watching OBL, constantly stonewalled in his efforts to bring OBL into capture? And then a few days later, have him working in one of the trade towers where He died on 9/11?

Just a few questions Ron...I'll be here to see how you answer

Check out Ron Wieck's work

Check out Ron Wieck's work at the American Thinker. He's been talking in circles for years. I doubt very much he is going to start talking straight @ 911blogger.

He's a time-sink, and he is a lightening rod. They can't allow 5 minutes without disruptors on this site.

The point is this is to waste your time, effort, and energy to go in circles.

http://www.americanthinker.com/ronald_wieck/

Articles By Ronald Wieck

Show "The truth has you whupped." by Anonymous (not verified)

i particularly enjoyed his

i particularly enjoyed his extremely typical, unoriginal rightwing screed "The Madness of The Left". what a piece of work that is. all the usual talking points are there. so much spin and distorted reality you would think that David Horowitz wrote it. gee, hes not stuck in the phony left/right paradigm is he? hes no partisan shill right? seriously, if you can stomach any of Rons essays you should read them fror the comedy alone. such a partisan zombie. and remember what Ron Wieck says-"My reasoning skills are vastly superior to yours.".a guy who has to tell you that is clearly superior right? that was an actual Ron Wieck qoute by the way.

Show "Useful Corrections" by Ronald Wieck
Show "Correct My Errors" by Ronald Wieck
Show "What is the matter? STILL no answers of your own?" by Anonymous (not verified)

ENOUGH already... you've got me!

I don't buy the troofer crap any more...

Your persistence has paid off. I would like to rejoin rational society now. Where should I sign up and pledge my allegiance to the War On Terror. I would like to do something to help. I think I might be really good a twisting the necks of sand-nigger babies... blasting haji wives to little bits.. and mauling the rag heads into submission under western freedom system.

Where do I sign?

Show "You still do not get it." by Anonymous (not verified)

But we don't have to do all

But we don't have to do all that if we agree with you, do we? Blimey, way to try to alienate your new mates! We're with you now! Can't you just be happy about that?

You sound like these EVIL troofers--nothing we say seems to make you happy! I'm certain Ronnie WOULD NOT approve!

Sheesh!

You are a godawful dimwit, Sparks.

Ha, ha, Ronnie! GOOD ONE!

Ha, ha, Ronnie! GOOD ONE! We need more humor, don't you think?

Just keep up the GOOD WORK--Go Ronnie!!!!!!

Show "Sarcasm" by Anonymous (not verified)
Show "You poor kid" by Anonymous (not verified)
Show "My Thoughts" by Ronald Wieck

Hahah the wall excuse

Oh the wall between the agencies of course. You know just because PBS does a documentary with a very nice sounding narrator explaining this all soberly and compellingly does not make it gospel.
That documentary ignored all the niggling facts and just went right along with the 'enemy' story, making it look like they were digging deeply and being brutally honest. It was an excellent and persuasive piece to those who needed to be reassured. But it was the easy option and did not look at the disturbing truth.

Show "Disturbing, Indeed" by Ronald Wieck

It's the foreknoweledge and the Cui Bono

Do you know why it is that no one seems to nail a single piece of evidence down for you so that you are forced to change your mind? It's because the burden should not be on us to do that, I do not believe it is because it is not possible. It is enough that the comission was compromised severely from the start and did not answer important questions for our questions to be justified.
Why!

There was foreknoweledge of these attacks and warnings were ignored here in the US.

The hijackers were here training in flight school and agents who wanted them caught were told to leave it by higher ups.

Atta, Hanjour we're very bad Cessna pilots.

The flight that hit the pentagon turned 270 degrees, away from rumsfelds office to hit the opposite side where the accounts department was, the very day after rumsfeld announced trillions missing from that very accounts department.

On and on and on....

Show "Not for Us" by Ronald Wieck

It's the foreknoweledge and the Cui Bono

Do you know why it is that no one seems to nail a single piece of evidence down for you so that you are forced to change your mind? It's because the burden should not be on us to do that, I do not believe it is because it is not possible. It is enough that the comission was compromised severely from the start and did not answer important questions for our questions to be justified.
Why!

There was foreknoweledge of these attacks and warnings were ignored here in the US.

The hijackers were here training in flight school and agents who wanted them caught were told to leave it by higher ups.

Atta, Hanjour we're very bad Cessna pilots.

The flight that hit the pentagon turned 270 degrees, away from rumsfelds office to hit the opposite side where the accounts department was, the very day after rumsfeld announced trillions missing from that very accounts department.

On and on and on....

Great Article

I have read many articles over they years that are formatted in this same way -- a series of questions that are loaded with background information, and all making for a compact and impactful tool to convey 9-11 truth. Updated versions of these are needed because we have brought forward new information and relevant ideas and new good questions.

I had a few problems with some small points throughout the article, but generally think the article is helpful and good.

For example:

"18. Why are none of the hijackers’ names on the official UA and AA airline passenger lists? In fact, there are no Arabic names whatsoever! "

United Airflines and American Airlines, according to "Sophia" who narrated and prepared 911 Mysteries, never put out an offical passenger list (called a "passenger manifest"). Sophia said on a recent radio show, as a guest to Dr. Stan Montetih, that the only passenger lists ever puplicized have come from mainstream media news sources.

___________________________________

8:00 PM: Open Lines with Dr. Stan.
9:00 PM: Sophia - 9/11 Mystery.
Listen Save - Real Audio

Listen Save - MP3

http://www.soundwaves2000.com/radio%5Fliberty/

___________________________________

If it is indeed fact that these airlines never publicized their official passenger lists, that fact in and of itself just adds one more puculiarity to the long list of them.

Also, where does the mainstream media get off saying they are publicizing the "official" passenger lists when they are in fact publicizing something they themselves have concocted?

______________

Every little detail in each point in the original posted article could be researched and then several more strange "conincidences" would be uncovered and many more unanswered questions.

________________

The problem is that the corruption and deception that Inside Job 9-11 involved has been operating in every aspect of our US government and indeed all of our society's main institutions for literally decades. When can you trace down a piece of information to its bottom-line source and then say that you have discovered the "whole truth" about that information? Especially considering that everyone is basically lying and passing on lies, and many do not have any idea they are operating in lies and deception.

I agree with Rollo that we should not let ill-intentioned posters take up our time and thought and ruin a really nice thread. I think it okay to be "negative" and that that can be "constructive" IF the poster puts the reasons they have for posting something that appears negative.

Blessings from Dachsie in Austin.

Show "Does It Ever Stop?" by Ronald Wieck

You're right, Mr. Wieck:

It's good of you to remind us of how it really works. Too much of the "911 Truth" crap has taken it's toll, I've lost touch not having kept up with enough mainstream news... I'm not kidding. It would have been so different for me if I had not allowed myself to believe in this conspiracy stupidness.

This war against Radical Islamist is very scary. I'm especially scared, to think I've participate in such an extraordinary con, a con which has turned so many people away from trusting Our Government. Not trusting our government is the worst thing American Patriots could do... it's Treason. I have committed Treason, all the worse if my actions mean that We loose the War against Radical Islam hell bent on destroying our God Given way of life.

We must not waist anymore time, it is long overdue that these crazy, mathematically impossible, insane, self injurious conspiracy theories... came to an end. Stop it. American citizens and her duly elected leaders had nothing to do with the horrible attacks of September the Eleventh. It is very important that we all understand who it was that day, that caused so much pain in America, Radical Islamist.

We must not allow these conspiracy theories to divide our Nation. It will take the commitment of every one of us, to stand together, unified... United... in our collective will to defend freedom and democracy for the sake of the world. The Radical Islamist have been training for decades with Terrorism, they are by now, all Terrorists. They know how to make bombs, and to sneak them into any place, at any time. They could be in a sleeper cell next door. You just can't tell who might be the next suicide bomber terrorist.

This should scare the pants right off you... it's a hell of a lot scarier, and thus so much harder to believe, than some Impossibly Vast Conspiracy about Bush knowing anything in advance. He would never allow his presidency to be jeopardized by participating in anything of the sort. You must understand how committed he is to America and our way of life.

I am of able body, but my mind on the other hand is a waste, proof is the fact that I took so long to understand how impossible these crazy conspiracies are. Being that I can not be trusted with facts and information, I should be banned from having access to the internet where so many bad ideas are completely unhindered (it should be censored by a panel of experts). Also, I would like to offer my body, and now my committed soul.. to the War against Terror and Radical Islamist.

I want to poke their eyes out, and smash their offspring with hammers.

My Poem

I was going to tell Ronnie directly, but I kind of shy about it. I've written a poem dedicated to Ronnie that shows exactly how much he means to me now. But I don't know...

Oi! Maybe I could blog a poetry contest, dedicated to Ronnie! What do you think, fellow former Troofer?

Meanwhile I plan to follow my hero whereever he goes!

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

Show "Subtle Satire" by Ronald Wieck

Blind, ignorant, unthinking fool

Yeah!

I must admit...

I'm spellbound. Really.

That Ronnie! He's a laugh,

That Ronnie! He's a laugh, innit he?

Show "Astonished" by Ronald Wieck

:(

Damn!

Jenny, I was starting to think you had a thing for me.

I must admit, I'm a little hurt.

I'm just gunna have to take it out on the object of your affections.

Jelousy is my untaimed spite
Ronald found a losing fight.
Effortlessly being right.
Like Revere in the night
I will shine the truthful light!

I'm not scared Col. Jenny Sparks!!

Not scared, huh? Well you

Not scared, huh? Well you SHOULD BE! THIS is poetry:

Ron Wieck, my hero,
Not a fake, like Nero;
His friend's a flake, at Ground Zero,
And on the make, hiding in Quero!

There! You are SOOOOOOO owned!!!

My Ronnie! My Ronnie!

Show "Poetic Gift" by Ronald Wieck

THANK YOU, RONNIE!!! I knew

THANK YOU, RONNIE!!! I knew you'd support me!

You are still in Jr. High?

You are still in Jr. High?

Wow.... Ronnies been powned by a little schoolgirl?

ron, i think i see a

ron, i think i see a jihadist under your bed. be afraid, be very afraid like we know you will. old dogs cant learn new tricks.

Hahahahaha

You're a laugh now aint ya, you stupid woman :)

But hey keep following the nutters on this site and u will become even more stupid then you are obviously now.

I really hope you are not a real Colonel, because i would hate to see people being commandeered by some nitwit like you tbh.

Even though I'm no longer a

Even though I'm no longer a Troofer I STILL think anony-mice should be EXTERMINATED.

It doesn't matter what you say--Ronnie knows I'm on his side!!!

Sure you are

you ignorant woman :)

Funny to see the idiot that posted this topic still beleives the blue tarp is a big mistery.

One large piece of evidence that was found was covered in blue tarp and hauled away into obscurity!

Here u can see the blue tarp and what they are hiding!!!!!!!!

They are hiding...... AIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't know why you're

I don't know why you're saying this to me, annoy-mice--I'm not a troofer anymore--as you could see IF YOU BOTHERED TO READ THE ABOVE POSTS. Besides, Ronnie will vouch for me, AS YOU CAN SEE.

Anyway, got to dash--I can't be defending Ronnie ALL day---I have a poetry contest to organize!

NUKES FOR DEMOCRACY!!!

We'll meet at Starbucks,

and plan jamborees, and have dittos, and cassettes.

NUKES FOR DEMOCRACY! NUKES FOR DEMOCRACY! can't say it enough...

Its kind of easy

to see which are moronic posts and which aint on this blog. You can just look at the points. Everything above 0 is from a moron given positve points by even more morons. So if you want to read the more interesting replies, just look at the replies that have points below 0.

We's sure ain't smart

Just take a second and read what you just wrote and tell me again who the morons are.

Oh, good one!

Just as a kindergarten teacher might, I'll give you points for trying this, kiddo. However, you should know we're all laughing in the teachers' lounge.

Now run along and get back to pulling the wings off flies.

Show "Ronald owns you, bubba Jenny." by Anonymous (not verified)

Tag team boys?

Q: Can either Ronnie nor Anonymouse can answer "Angle is next?" http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/11/60II/main521718.shtml — fully documented, and at the heart of Webster G. Tarpley's incisive analysis of 9/11.

They're blogging in here, eating a lot of space and time, slamming everyone as though mentally retarded, while presenting themselves as exceptionally superior to one and all and arrogantly proposing none are up to their analytical, and or oratory prowess.

From that premis, I would propose a public debate between either of you and Webster G. Tarpley, based on the conclusion of his analysis...topic: Support, or lack thereof, for a 9/11 coup d'etat by a rogue network vs. blow-back attack by Islamic terrorists (or whatever conclusion you've drawn, the one supported by the 911 Commission, presumably). Perhaps Webster would be willing to do a one-on-one with either of you on his weekly radio broadcast. Would be interesting to hear whose education, or lack thereof would be first to give way.

Moreover, you could do tag team and I think he'd still mop the floor with you -- perhpas a real-time online chat, hosted right here -- with everyone but the two or three of you agreeing to simply sit back and refresh their screens. To maintain discipline, it could probably be set up that submissions from all IPs but the two or three of yours be blocked. Posts would remain for anyone who could not fit the real-time event into their schedule.

You game, boys? I'd bet Webster is and I'd love to observe.

To give you a chance to see what you'd be up against, if you've not already done so, visit:

A/V
http://www.911busters.com/New_911_Evidence/WMV/Webster_Tarpley_NYC.wmv

audio only
http://www.911busters.com/New_911_Evidence/MP3/Webster_Tarpley_NYC.html

They're not worthy to scoop dog poop out of his yard.

These guys are just a weird breed of online pervert. Not worth anyone's time.

you're right

-- like shooting fish in a barrel - pretty boring in less than a minute -- was just curious to see what response would be to such a notion

Here is a comment from one of your fellow Truthers

\"We dont want too many chicks in the [9/11 conspiracy theory] movement. They are alright to look at and play with but they dont have the necessary intelligence. They are also more open to the disinfo.\"

Denier Quotes of the Year--All Nutty Edition
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2007/01/denier-quotes-of-year-all-n...

Maybe you might want to take up a more worthwhile cause, casseia, than fighting against the real truth about 9/11, huh?

ROFLMAO, Ernie

Ernie, do you know what it is like to be a chick who never, ever has to worry if she is "as smart" or "smart enough" to keep up with the boys?

Now put your dick back in your pants. So sad.

Too bad you are just as dumb as your compatriot.

You just revealed what we hoped was not true. Poor kid, how did you decide to let your mind go so badly? Drugs?

Whatever it is, you had better get your act together fast and realize that you cannot continue to deny objective reality.

________________

The standard of proof these people require of us is different than the standard of proof they require of themselves.

- Tom Kean, co-chair of the 9/11 Commission, commenting on 9/11 conspiracy theorists, 09/08/2006,
Behind the Closed Doors of the 9/11 Commission
http://hancock.constitutioncenter.org/media/9-11_commission_2/9-11_commi...

2006 is the year in which the 9/11 Truth Movement began its Death Plunge.
- The Real World, 12/30/2006

YOU have to answer the questions.

YOU are making the claims that 9/11 was an inside job, yet you cannot provide any evidence of it.

The onus is on you to prove it.

Show "Operation northwoods" by Anonymous (not verified)

Bush

actually saw the second plane hitting the towers as you can see in the next picture.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o72/ardoucette/bush_wtc_crash.jpg

Not possible...

9:03 a.m. September 11, 2001:According to Sarasota County Sheriff Bill Balkwill, just after Bush enters a Booker Elementary classroom, a Marine responsible for carrying Bush's phone walks up to Balkwill, who is standing in a nearby side room. While listening to someone talk to him in his earpiece, the Marine asks, "Can you get me to a television? We're not sure what's going on, but we need to see a television." Three Secret Service agents, a SWAT member, the Marine and Balkwill turn on the television in a nearby front office just as Flight 175 crashes into the WTC. "We're out of here," the Marine tells Balkwill. "Can you get everyone ready?" [Sarasota Herald-Tribune, 9/10/02]
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a903bushcontinues#a9...

Anonymous, the photo you posted was taken AFTER Bush left Sandra Daniels' class to meet with his staff in another nearby classroom at the Booker Elementary School.

UL

2. The steel in the Towers was certified by Underwriters Laboratories Inc. to withstand 2000°F for 6 hours!

They didn't test the steel, they tested a fireproofing material they wanted to use instead of the fireproffing that had asbestos in it. Using asbestos was abbandoned in 1970 because it proved to be a health risk.

You can find a copy from the actual letter from UL to the Port of New York Authority here. Just go to page 174 (226)

If you read up a bit in that file, you can find more information to why UL did the testing.

On page 205 (257)

of that file you can see a copy from a letter from UL about a floor assembly fire test they did in early 1970.

I am NOT A TROOFER ANY MORE!!!

No matter what follows here:

What you're seeing some-NOT ME!-would call satire/parody in EXTREME. It's not everyone's taste--for those of us it works for-NOT ME!- comedy is the best response to apparent absurdity. Face it ALW, the topic of this thread is long dead. Don't blame those who don't have as much a taste or need for satire for moving on. Sometimes laughter isn' t just the best medicine, but it's the ONLY medicine. I'd just expect the others have met their laughter quota.

Now, maybe you want to write a poem about my hero, Ronnie?

NUKE THOSE TOWEL HEADS!!!!

But, but, Col Jenny...my daughters have towels on their heads

every morning after they take a shower.....are you going to nuke them too?

(btw - I put up eight signs today)

Happy Truth Year!

The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.

Be well, y'all.

That is exactly the reason I haven't been posting.

Although I did like my "one handed typing" post. Really, Andrew, Wieck isn't worth your time, my time, or anyone's time. I feel about him much like I do about the guy who sat next to me at a bus stop when I was sixteen and proceeded to whack off. Responding to him has nothing to do with "standing up for the truth." Everyone here is just a prop in the pervy little set up he needs for gratification -- and I don't play the pervy prop unless I'm getting something pretty fabulous out of it myself. Needless to say, I ain't -- and I can't imagine you are either. I'd sooner talk to you about spacebeams than listen to anymore of Wieck's "I'm just doing research" heavy breathing. Jesus, I'd even be willing to use the "directed energy weapon" term.

Well, there's a difference though, isn't there?

It's possible to have a dialogue with you, Killtown and a few others. (I've pretty much given up on CB_Brooklyn.) If a dialogue isn't possible, then it's NOT worth any of my time. If I was Jason and Dylan's PR person, I would have ix-nayed that whole thing, so the fact that these guys participated in it doesn't mean anything to me.

Show "Blind Pig Finds Truffle" by Ronald Wieck
Show "No, You Won't be Responding" by Ronald Wieck

Evidence of an Inside Coverup, of an Inside Job.

The lie that is the NIST report, really gets under way in the last paragraph on page 8 and the fig description on page 9 After that, it never lets up accept for those pages "intentionally left blank". Those could be the most honest pages produced by NIST.

A more qualified person may locate a error earlier than page 8... maybe the front cover, I don't know... but by page eight, the myth that the cores of the World Trade Centers primarily consisted of four corner posts, with the rest simply being vertical "H" beams, turned my stomach. But I marched on... the report continues, and repeats in paragraph, photos, diagrams and computer illustrations... a LIE that the core was barely able to sustain its own weight. As if the core was more of a liability for the structure, rather than an asset to strength and robustness. As if the core was placing an unfair weight and strain upon the floors and outer walls of the structure. OUT-OF-THIS-WORLD POPPYCOCK, THAT IS!

The NIST Report of September 2005 is a noteworthy fraud perpetrated by that Institution. To avoid at all cost, a realistic and honest description of the core by that agency... is as much proof as any... of a fucking Inside Coverup.

Refute this, Mr. Wieck:

Can you say the phrase, "47 rectangular box columns, running from bedrock to hat-truss"? Can you allow those words to pass your lips? Do you really want to go down, so to speak, simply because you refuse to admit an historical reality of WTC construction... in favor of pretending that the core of those buildings was just a popsicle stick waste of money and iron-work? That the structures represented a Death Trap for all who entered, from the very first moment the doors were opened? That the structure barely held itself aloft, waiting for just that horrible moment, when some evil-do'er would exploit such a weakness and oversight on the part of America and her half-ass engineers? Is that what you really think?

You tell me... I'll do as you say. This is all a fraud that needs to be exposed, or; that your interpretation of history, structural trade-craft, and state-craft is spot on... and that I need to commit myself to smiting the swarthy freedom hater taking advantage of our freedom... and really bad building codes.

You tell me.

"The truth shall make you free." Why not make the truth free? We live on a priceless blue pearl, awash in a universe of fire and ice. Cut the crap.

Show "Aggressive Stupidity" by Ronald Wieck

Projection can be so fugly,

Projection can be so fugly, fugly, fugly, can't it? His posts couldn't be more textbook.

And this from the case who has yet to answer a single direct question or make a single contribution to actual dialogue.

Pay attention, people, to the kind of entries that cause him to stay and spray like an alley cat. All this hysteria results from fear of its convincing nature.

IMHO, I don't think it is even necessary to discuss steel or "collapse" sequence or anything else regarding the WTC. All one has to do is run the tape and ask the viewer "Where's all the energy coming from to blow all that matter up and out?" Neither NIST nor PM has touched it, and it is not shown on t.v. anymore for that reason -- they only show the impacts and fireballs.

We were out to dinner the other night with a couple who contend that the fire was hot enough "melt the steel" because of "all the paper in the building." My husband said, "I've been to your house many times when you've had huge wood fires in the fireplace with banks of red coals going for HOURS. When is that cheap iron grate gonna melt? Now go home and watch that video and tell me where the energy is coming from to blow those things to kingdom come." Presto! The light is now permanently switched on. I think that the scientific research is great, but it can divert people from what is so stunningly obvious.

And no, RW (and your anonymous aliases), I'm not talking to you, so please spare me the displeasure of your reply. I'm hoping to keep my posts rated PG.

Show "New Champion" by Ronald Wieck

"Strange. No DBLS, no

"Strange. No DBLS, no Albanese, no Gold, no Stallion4, or Arabesque or Seve B, a brief appearance by casseia, a sarcastic remark about Jim Fetzer by YT and a jibe at u2rh2 by imgstacke."

Perhaps -- and this is just a shot in the dark -- the above mentioned individuals understand the futility of arguing with obsessive-compulsive shills and are off doing other things, say spreading the truth to newbies. This is not to take anything away from the people who have argued on this thread -- if you think it's doing some good, go ahead and do it -- but my experience is that talking to a brick wall seldom yields positive results.

"I wonder , the real shills like Wieck or the cutting-edge 911 researchers who they regularly trash?"

By "cutting edge" I assume you refer to space beams and the nonsensical fantasies of Nico Haupt. I admit I find it amusing to see these two groups -- disinfo and OFT pimps -- arguing with one another. It's sort of like when "Al-Qaeda" issues threats against their handlers at the Pentagon.

As for Ronny and Mark, I agree with a previous poster that they're here simply to disrupt. A second possibility is that they fancy themselves true blue patriots and think it somehow noble to defend their Gubmints, "right or wrong" as it were; the bizarre allusions to "communism" and "anarchism" indicate a sort of primitive nationalism at work here, an irrational fear of the "other" and an infantile desire to be protected by the state. Needless to say, none of these self-professed "debunkers" have read Orwell on Patriotism vs. Nationalism.

The half-baked explanations they concoct for various anomalies of the OFT are amusing exercises in mental gymnastics, but they are not likely to sway large numbers of people. Unfortunately for these misguided souls there are just too many anomalies to debunk, and eventually they start sounding as they are: crack-brained fundamentalists who see the world in black and white, defenders of mass-murder and torture, C-grade philosophers who rebel against science and logic in the name of the Fourth Reich.

Back to 9-11

Hello fokes, new to the blog. Care to talk about 9-11?

Welcome Rick1160, don't mind all this craziness

We've been invaded by irrational government conspiracy theory supporters this past week.

Seems they're especially worried about all the progress we've made in the last few months.

What would you like to talk about?

What caught your interest about 9/11?

Where are you from? Are you part of a group?

You may want to post a blog and start your own thread.

I hope that you and yours are well.

The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.

Show "Slow Progress" by Ronald Wieck

47-stories in 6.7 seconds

Which buildings have 47 massive steel box columns running from bedrock to hat-truss at their core and 240 steel box columns on their peripheral walls?

Hint: You compared these buildings to popsicle sticks.

Now try this experiment: take off your shoes, hold the bowling ball above your head and drop it onto one of your feet. Does all the flesh disappear? Do your bones break into very small fragments and fly into the next room?

As for "debate:" unfortunately, there has been no debate here, when you are asked a question you either ignore it, evade it or tell us to go talk to your panel of experts at JREF or elsewhere.

In the next several months I am going to be extraordinarily busy with my 9/11 Truth activities, but if I get really bored I may venture over to JREF and see how pathetic, absurd and ridiculous your "experts" are. However, if they are anything like you, I won't waste my time.

(BTW - WTC 7, a 47 story steel-framed building, was destroyed in 6.7 seconds in a classic textbook controlled demolition)

Once again and for the record: I hate no one.

The only hatred, stupidity and ignorance demonstrated here has been by you, Mr. Wieck.

One last question, Mr. Wieck, where do you get all the straw for all your straw men? Do you have a farm somewhere?

The truth shall set (most of) us free. Love is the only way forward.

Show "Lefty at JREF--LOL" by Ronald Wieck
Show "Show Me Something, at Long Last" by Ronald Wieck

47 stories in 6.7 seconds

That would be WTC 7 being destroyed in a classic textbook controlled demolition.

Mr. Wieck, we know why you are here. You are here to create a hostile environment and spread disinformation to inhibit the curious who may wander into this site looking for more information, as they are doing at an increasing rate.

Try as you might, with your mediocre rhetorical skills, you will never be able to overcome the truth and the laws of physics obvious to all who look with an open mind.

Mr. Wieck, when the 9/11 trials start will you still stand with the lies and people you so vigorously defend now?

Once again and for the record: I hate no one.

The truth shall set (most of) us free. Love is the only way forward.

Show "Still a Fraud" by Ronald Wieck

Evidence for Controlled Demolition:

Please watch the video of Tower 2's collapse, found here:

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-736262871641918799&q=collapse+wtc

If one looks at that video in slo-mo, the explosive behavior of the section immediately below the falling upper section is COMPLETELY incompatible with where the upper section is impacting it.

Watch the video closely, paying special attention to the perfect horizontal symmetry with which the lower section blows directly (horizontally) outward, even though the upper section is rotating INWARD away from the lower section perimeter walls. Yet another dead give away that it is not the upper section impacting the lower section that is blowing the building up, but rather some kind of demolition charges blowing each floor straight outward. THUS, WE HAVE MORE ROCK-SOLID PROOF THAT THIS WASN'T A GRAVITY_DRIVEN COLLAPSE.

Note further, starting at around the 4-5 second mark of the video, the upper section has half disappeared, seemingly inside the lower section, and yet the symmetrical, outward explosion of each floor continues unabated in exactly the same fashion regardless of the fact that the angle of the upper section precludes such horizontal destruction. As the lower edge of the upper section's perimeter columns impact the floors well inside and away from the lower section's perimeter walls, the floor trusses' destruction should pull the lower section's perimeter walls INWARD, but instead, the trusses defy the laws of physics and their ends explode straight outwards. Given that the upper section's perimeter wall is impacting the floors below WELL inside the building, EXACTLY what physical mechanism is causing this straight-out explosion of each floor? Only explosives of some kind can explain it. YET MORE EVIDENCE OF CONTROLLED DEMOLITION.

Another odd aspect of the neat and tidy horizontal explosion of each floor is that the explosions DO NOT extend all the way to the corners of the building. Rather, the corners remain completely unaffected by the collapse of the upper section up until the point where the billowing dust obscures them. EXACTLY what physical mechanism can account for this? Only explosives of some kind can explain it. EVEN MORE EVIDENCE OF CONTROLLED DEMOLITION.

Tiresome Nonsense

So you wasted many words fabricating utter nonsense. We get the idea that you are totally ignorant of controlled demolition. Please tell us why NOBODY who works in that industry thinks that the collapse of the Twin Towers looks anything like a demolition.

"Yet more evidence for controlled demoltion"? Sorry, peddle your fish to people who can't smell it. There is ZERO evidence for controlled demolition. You should know that whenever a scientific illiterate babbles about defying the laws of physics, a buzzer goes off: Moron Alert!

Tell the thousands of physicists, metallurgists, molecular chemists, and structural engineers who regard your fantasies as hogwash that they have overlooked an elementary violation of the laws of physics. Come to JREF and dazzle 'em.

Answers:

RW asks:
"Please tell us why NOBODY who works in that industry thinks that the collapse of the Twin Towers looks anything like a demolition"

Post web sites with quotes from CD company employees giving the NIST report the nod.

RW says:
"Tell the thousands of physicists, metallurgists, molecular chemists, and structural engineers who regard your fantasies as hogwash..."

WOW! Have all these "professionals" really reviewed my work? I feel honored. But seriously, post some links for one or more each of INDEPENDANT "physicists, metallurgists, molecular chemists, and structural engineers" who have openly endorsed the NIST report (for those lurking about in here, there are NONE. Not one single, credible, independant endorsement).

RW says:
"There is ZERO evidence for controlled demolition"

Really? Then take my post over to JREF yourself, tell 'em who sent ya, then get back to us with the responses. I dare ya.

What "Work"?

Your "work"? What "work"? A know-nothing pretending to expertise he doesn't have--the tinfoil-hat sites are crawling with such types. Since when is making up stuff considered "work"? I suppose I "worked" very hard when I was six.

I--moi?--should take your uninformed nonsense to JREF? Let me save both of us some time. They would direct you to threads where your recycled canards have been refuted over and over.

Perhaps you don't believe me? In that case, I guess you should visit JREF and see how you make out.

WTC 7 Controlled Demoltion: Evidence:

Watch the videos of WTC 7's collapse here:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7.html

Note in all of the videos that none of the visible walls exhibit ANY trauma as they collapse smoothly and evenly into the ground. The outer walls behave as if the steel columns immediately behind them are completely without substance, a FACT that is only explainable by CD. The steel columns do not buckle, bend, jolt, jar, or otherwise stutter on their way down. Nor does the outside facade of each wall show any appreciable indication that the bottom edge of each wall is "hammering" itself into the ground. The energy imparted into each steel column as it hits the ground translates into absolutely NOTHING visible on the wall facings. The only way this observation can be explained is that timed demolition charges (of a type yet to be determined) were sytematically breaking up each steel column BEFORE the column impacted the ground, thus allowing for the entire wall's curtain-like, free-fall drop.

re: WTC 7 Controlled Demoltion: Evidence:

Here's some more...

Former NYPD Officer & 9/11 First Responder Craig Bartmer:

"I was real close to Building 7 when it fell down... That didn't sound like just a building falling down to me while I was running away from it. There's a lot of eyewitness testimony down there of hearing explosions. I didn't see any reason for that building to fall down the way it did -- and a lot of guys should be saying the same thing. I don't know what the fear is coming out and talking about it? I don't know -- but it's the truth."

[...]

"I walked around it (Building 7). I saw a hole. I didn't see a hole bad enough to knock a building down, though. Yeah there was definitely fire in the building, but I didn't hear any... I didn't hear any creaking, or... I didn't hear any indication that it was going to come down. And all of a sudden the radios exploded and everyone started screaming 'get away, get away, get away from it!'... It was at that moment... I looked up, and it was nothing I would ever imagine seeing in my life. The thing started pealing in on itself... Somebody grabbed my shoulder and I started running, and the shit's hitting the ground behind me, and the whole time you're hearing "boom, boom, boom, boom, boom." I think I know an explosion when I hear it... Yeah it had some damage to it, but nothing like what they're saying... Nothing to account for what we saw... I am shocked at the story we've heard about it to be quite honest."

Speaking Out: An interview with Craig Bartmer
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2283625397351664218&q=bartmer&h...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-Reporter Al Jones: "People started to run away from the scene [WTC7] and I turned in time to see what looked like a skyscraper implosion -- looked like it had been done by a demolition crew -- the whole thing just collapsing down on itself and another big huge plume of gray and white smoke shooting up into the air and then more of the smoke billowing up the street here... so that’s number one, number two, and now number seven that have come down from this explosion."

Live 9-11 Report from 1010 WINS NYC News Radio, presented in the documentary "911 Eyewitness" (Forward to 28:25)
Video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=65460757734339444&q=

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-Emergency worker: "We were watching the building [WTC7] actually ‘cause it was on fire… the bottom floors of the building were on fire and… we heard this sound that sounded like a clap of thunder… turned around -- we were shocked to see that the building was ah well it looked like there was a shockwave ripping through the building and the windows all busted out… it was horrifying… about a second later the bottom floor caved out and the building followed after that… we saw the building crash down all the way to the ground… we were in shock."

Live 9-11 Report from 1010 WINS NYC News Radio, presented in the documentary "911 Eyewitness" (Forward to 31:30)
Video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=65460757734339444&q=

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-Guns & Butter Radio interview - April 27th 2005:
Hosted by Bonnie Falkner
Guest: Indira Singh (Ground Zero Emergency Worker)

Bonnie: How long did you work as an emergency medical technician and exactly what is it that you were doing (at ground zero)?

Indira: ...when I got there we were setting up triage sites (at ground zero), close, very close to the area. The triage site that I was setting up was behind, well, to the east of Building 7 where Building 7 came down...
...we were setting up triages as close to the pile as possible… so what we were doing was setting up different kinds of stations… IV stations, cardiac stations, wound stations, burn stations ...just trying to have an organized space. What happened with that particular triage site is that pretty soon afternoon, after mid-day on 9/11 we had to evacuate that because they told us Building 7 was coming down... I do believe that they brought Building 7 down... By noon or one o'clock they told us we had to move from that triage site up to Pace University a little further away because Building 7 was going to come down or being brought down.

Bonnie: Did they actually use the word "brought down" and who was it that was telling you this?

Indira: The fire department... the fire department and they did use the word "we're going to have to bring it down."

Excerpt from above is heard approximately ten minutes into the interview.
Audio: http://www.gunsandbutter.net/archives.php?si=78

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-Columbia Journalism Review – May/June 2003, by Thomas Franklin

Excerpt from an article written by award winning photographer, Thomas Franklin, who snapped the world famous photo of firemen raising the American flag at ground zero. In the article Franklin explains that all of ground zero was evacuated less than an hour before WTC 7 was demolished at approximately 5:20 pm on 9/11:

"Much of what happened to me on September 11 is a blur, but this moment I clearly remember: It was 4:45 p.m., and all the firemen and rescue workers were evacuating Ground Zero after word came that a third building -- WTC 7 -- was ready to fall. I had only a few frames left, and an entire day's worth of pictures to develop, so I prepared to head back to New Jersey."
Article: http://archives.cjr.org/year/02/2/franklin.asp

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- CBS News Anchor, Dan Rather, makes comments after Building 7 falls down:

“Amazing, incredible pick your word. For the third time today, it’s reminiscent of those pictures we’ve all seen too much on television before, where a building was deliberately destroyed by well placed dynamite to knock it down.”

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr6_WRPZjIM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-WTC lease holder Larry Silverstein's comments about Building 7 in the PBS documentary, America Rebuilds (2002):

“I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and then we watched the building collapse.”

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CahEva8zQas

In the same documentary, America Rebuilds, a clean up worker at ground zero uses the term "pull" when preparing for the controlled demolition of Building 6: (Use of the word “pull” as slang for “demolish”)

Unidentified Construction Worker: "Hello? Oh, we're getting ready to pull building six."

Luis Mendes, NYC Dept of Design and Construction: "We had to be very careful how we demolished building six. We were worried about the building six coming down and then damaging the slurry walls, so we wanted that particular building to fall within a certain area.”

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNEoiOP76QQ

Larry Silverstein Answers WTC Building 7 Charges: Says "pull it" meant to evacuate firefighters, but there were no firefighters in the building:
Article:: http://www.informationliberation.com/index.php?id=4718

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Of course in some circles of the controlled demolition industry 'Pull' is used to mean that you actually demolish a building."

-Benjamin Chertoff, Researcher for Popular Mechanics, on Coast to Coast AM - March 5, 2005

Audio:
http://www.pumpitout.com/audio/debunking_popular_mechanics.mp3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"This is work of man. This is a hired job. [Larry Silverstein] said it himself. You hear him saying 'Pull it' down."

-Controlled Demolition Expert Danny Jowenko

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sep-HDZoEBM

Danny Jowenko owns a demolition firm called "Jowenko Exposieve Demolitie B.V.". Information about his company's qualifications can be found posted on their website:
Link: http://www.jowenko.com/index.php/1,3,2

He's also listed on ImplosionWorld.com's website as being one of their licensed blasters and associates":

http://www.implosionworld.com/history4.htm

Related:
Controlled Demo Expert Danny Jowenko confirms that Building 7 was brought down on purpose:

http://www.911blogger.com/node/3231

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Structural Experts Say:
"WTC-7 was with the greatest probability brought down by controlled demolition done by experts."
Link: http://911blogger.com/node/2925

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Video clips of World Trade Center Building 7 being "pulled" on 9/11:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr6_WRPZjIM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWemhf8fZ2w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLnBSyc4ICo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th17YNqOCSk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmL9F-TSIes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ewf3zYS-QkA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzLqx_gjBAg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwjmqkjwnvQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uPfKghBIOY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFsXzKa2ce0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0scE7bQWdk

7 minute video presentation on the destruction of Building 7 on 9/11...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4556787288866368337&sourceid=do...

Explain Jowenko

How is that conspiracy liars who quote Danny Jowenko always neglect to explain why he thinks the collapses of the Twin Towers look NOTHING like a controlled demolition? We understand that he formed his erroneous impression of the collapse of WTC 7 after being shown photos that failed to reveal the extensive damage to the building. But why won't the liars tell us the significance of his rejection of their central myth?

Liar?

Listen up you slimy worm and protector of murdering scum; Danny Jowenko was shown the alleged damage to wtc7. After he examined it he stated "On this the building will stand. Guaranteed. Guaranteed." This footage is in the extended interview with Jowenko, part three I believe @ the 5 minute mark:
http://911blogger.com/node/3231

Regarding his comments concerning the twin towers, he and most other controlled demolition experts are not experienced in top down demolition, which was the method used to bring down the towers. Building 7 was a conventional CD (bottom up), which Danny Jowenko has nearly 20 years experience performing.

Inexperienced Experts

Yes, although you are totally ignorant of controlled demolition, you managed to stumble on the truth when you wrote that demolition experts are not familiar with top-down demolition. It's true. Most shark fishermen are unfamilar with the use of tennis rackets to catch Great Whites.
A correction: Moral idiots like yourself, who indulge their deranged hatred of a group of American politicians by constant lying, are protecting one of the most murderous groups of scum to ever befoul the planet. Your vicious and baseless slanders of innocent people are beneath contempt.

We will see what impact the NIST Report has on Jowenko's views. We know what impact it will have on yours.

The Government's Lapdog wrote: "Yapty yap yap"

Your scribblings remind me of a psycho exgirfriend stalker I once had. So go take your fuckin' meds Ronald Macdonald -- if you're able to remove your tongue from your master's boots for a minute or two that is...lol

Same Old, Same Old

Yawn. I am deeply impressed by your profound understanding of physics and engineering. I had no idea you actually had real evidence to present. And there I was, thinking that the people here were just ignorant loons.

Show "Self-delusion sets the 9/11 Truth Movement apart." by Anonymous (not verified)

Put it away and zip up, Ernie

It's nothing we haven't seen before and comparatively, it's not impressive.

Show "Denying objective reality is not an option." by Anonymous (not verified)

Secrets

It has been made very clear that keeping secrets is an essential key to upper level governmental positions. You keep secrets you become very successful... but that is not the only reward.

People die every day..... and they have many ways to make that happen.

Are you familiar with Al Capone?

My great grandfather thought.... thought!.... he saw Al Capone kill someone in a dark alley in Chicago.... and before morning he had moved his entire family 300 miles away! They left everything except some clothes and necessities. Why? Because Al Capone had means to kill you if he didn't do it himself. If he did kill someone and he caught you in eye shot of it... you were dead.

Your government has far greater reach. There is no moving 300 miles away. These keepers of secrets are staring at murders who just willingly killed 3,000 people and they know that talking could mean signing a death certificate for you and your family...one way or another.

Look what happens to those who speak out..... and look at those who keep secrets.

They could be keeping quiet... doing their job.... living... and hoping that they can prevent the next. Hope that they don't try and pull something like this again?

We can only hope and plead that someone comes out
But that person would have to have the smoking gun.... it's the only way coming out will guarantee that this person may be safe.

Just having a piece of the pie won't do it... not worth it for one of these people to reveal something small..... and since they may only have eyewitness testimony.... you guys won't even listen to them unless they support your fantasy.

fall in line weak minds

"Let us not tolerate outragous conspiracy theories.".... just aint the same without actually seeing the look on his face when he says this... peaking out from under his brow to make sure nobody is making any disgusted expressions or shaking their heads

"You are either with us or you are against us."..... he's a bit more confident when he says this..... because he doesn't care what we know... he's got the Patriot act now!

Faces of man:

This is the face of a man reacting candidly as he is caught off guard:

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/11/23/bush_door_gallery__470x391.jpg

These are the faces of a man fully on guard, reacting with deceitful control:

http://www.garlicandgrass.org/issue3/images/Ward_Bushwithcard.jpg
http://www.garlicandgrass.org/issue6/images/Bush_withbook.jpg

Actually, what sets us apart is our conviction, determination

and awareness.

Our conviction, because once one has realized the truth about 9/11 one never goes back.

Our determination, because those who understand the truth of 9/11 also know that we are facing forces that intend to destroy our democracy and, as true patriots, we will fight to the last one of us to keep this from happening.

Our awareness, because in studying what happened and the long history of the perpetrators of 9/11 we know the methods and tactics they employ and are very aware of them and know how to counter them.

The great strenght of the 9/11 Truth movement is its diversity. We are non-partisan and our members come from all walks of life and every segment of society. We are rapidly approaching the tipping point and when we do reach it we will peacefully end this anti-democratic reign of synthetic terrorism and continue the great experiment in human social organization that our Founding Fathers (and Mothers) began.

I did not bring two daughters into this world to hand them a debt-ridden police state, and I will fight to my last breath to insure that their future will be a peaceful, spiritual and sustainable one.

The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.

You never miss a chance

to make asses of yourselves.

Unfortunately, reality and the truth are far stronger than your fantasies about 9/11.

________________

The standard of proof these people require of us is different than the standard of proof they require of themselves.

- Tom Kean, co-chair of the 9/11 Commission, commenting on 9/11 conspiracy theorists, 09/08/2006,
Behind the Closed Doors of the 9/11 Commission
http://hancock.constitutioncenter.org/media/9-11_commission_2/9-11_commi...

2006 is the year in which the 9/11 Truth Movement began its Death Plunge.
- The Real World, 12/30/2006

Whatever one might think of

Whatever one might think of what has passed above, it is a sign there is a lot of tension that satire can relieve.

Is this the right place? Perhaps not--and I appologize, greenback, that your blog became a defacto outlet for that energy. Erin takes the blame--I mean credit! Ha, Ha! -for getting the ball rolling, and yes, I helped enthusiastically. When Erin started to engage Wieck A La Colbert(if Colbert had been a marine), it released all this tension via laughter I didn't even know was there. And you will note satire is one thing Wieck cannot effectively respond to.

Nonetheless, I will try to restrain myself in future on other people's blogs, and, in the meantime, I hope to blog alternative that could act as a release valve for all the rubbish we've to deal with at 911Blogger. This is all contingent on being approved by the moderators, of course. Silly and satirical will be welcome, and you may be surprised at how much you have bottled up!

Anyway, that's me for now--and yes, as someone has said--let's get back to 911truth.

Jen Sparks....You Rock,Babe!!

You certainly can roll with the punches and I'm damn proud to know you as a truther, or as Wonnie would say, a twoofer.
I have much bottled up and satirical is quite welcome in My book, I've definatly caught much in person as Wonnie has written here and learned to bite My tongue and remained calm.
I really am pleased to have met many truthers on this blog and I am damn proud and honored with y' all, too!!!

1). The Patriot Act was made to facilitate intelligence gathering for communication with law enforcement agencies??
Basically, spying on the public is what it's for, Mr. Libertarian.
We know that's already been going on for some time, and your hero, Bush has admitted as much. Plus, We all know about his signing statements as to how He interprets these laws. How much fighting are you doing against this, Mr. Libertarian? You tell Me how a person who dissents against the false war on terrorism won't be the next one who gets the attention of the intelligence gatherers?And if that same person finds out that they have been spied upon wants to know what information has been gathered, the government will not reveal what they have, because it's a matter of "National Security". Uh huh...We are saying NO!
WE THE PEOPLE are the BOSS of this government, not the other way around, Mr. Libertarian. They are ignoring US, they are ignoring the widows of the victims, the same ones who had to push extremely hard to get the first investigation started. How much fighting did you do for them, Mr. Libertarian?
2) Nobody ever claimed that Saddam and Osama were allied. This is an interesting claim here, because the troops were told this, and doesn't the Secretary of Defense inform our troops about the enemy they are fighting against?? To make that statement by you is a flat out lie.
Your hero Bush has said it and then later backtracked by saying He was tring to keep Us safe. I don't want him or anyone in this Administration doing that job. I do not want to trade My liberty for security, do you Mr. Libertarian?

3) You say "the "government" did not lie and nobody thinks it did in arguing that Iraq's WMD threatened the stability of the Middle East and posed an ongoing risk of being transferred to terrorists". First of all, lets not forget about the Downing Street memo, Joe Wilson knew about it, AND We have been monitoring Iraq since '91, have had sanctions against Iraq during this same period of time, this Administration can contend anything about "missing" documented stockpiles in 1995. Wasn't it the Pentagon that could'nt account for the missing $2.3 trillion dollars? Coincidently 1995 was the year they received information of the "Bojinka" plot.
Besides, why worry about an election when it can become fixed. People don't turn out in greater numbers just because an Administration is doing an excellent job, they do it because the opposite is true.
4)"Don't you feel silly pretending to grownups that the FBI says there is no connection between bin Laden and the attacks? I mean, really"? I mean really, I don't. You didn't mention they are a part of Homeland security now. They have said OBL had no connections with 9/11 AFTER these agencies were combined. Remember? They are combined now, they share their information. Which of those formerly "non-domestic" agencies shared this info with the "domestic" FBI, Mr. Libertarian? But lets just say your hero Bush and the Bin Laden family having business ties is nothing to consider here. Osama was just tired of an Empire oppressing people and formed an organization with help from our own CIA to fight Russians in Afghanistan.

5).t You said; "the other questions are conspiracist arcana and hold no interest. Able Danger was discussed in Kean and Hamilton's book". Dietrich Snell, say it with Me Wonnie,, Dietrich Snell.
(www.cooperativeresearch.org) contains a very peculiar account entitled: Early 1998:Prosecutors Turn Down Deal That Could Reveal Bojinka Third Plot.
The entry said: "Abdul Hakim Murad, a conspirator in the 1995 Bojinka plot with Ramzi Yousef, Khalid Shaik Mohammed, and others, was convicted in 1996 of his role in the Bojinka plot. He is about to be sentenced for that crime. He offers to cooperate with federal prosecutors in return for a reduction in his sentence, but prosecutors turn down his offer.
Dietrich Snell, the prosecutor who convicted Murad, says after 9-11 that he doesn't remember any such offer. But court papers and others familiar with the case later confirmed that Murad does offer to cooperate at this time. Snell claimed he only remembers hearing that Murad had described an intention to hijack a plan and fly it into the CIA headquarters. However, in 1995 Murad had confessed to Philippine investigators that this would have been only one part of a larger plot to crash a number of airplanes into prominent U.S. buildings, including the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, a plot that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed later adjusts and turns in the 9-11 plot.
While Philippine investigators claim this information was passed on to U.S. intelligence, it's not clear just which U.S. officials may have learned this information and what they did with it, if anything. [New York Daily News, 9/25/01] Murad is sentenced in May 1998 and given life in prison plus 60 years. [Albany Times Union, 9/22/02].
After 9-11, Snell goes on to become Senior Counsel and a team leader for the 9-11 Commission.
Snell ignored evidence presented to the Commission that shows direct ties between the Bojinka plot and 9-11, and in so doing covers up Snell's own role in the failure to make use of evidence learned from Murad and other Bojinka plotters. [FrontPage Magazine, 1/27/05].
This is hardly conspiracist arcana, Mr. Libertarian, so lets have another investigation to clear these matters up. I am willing to be satisfied if the government be allowed 300 million to investigate and that the families of the victims be allowed to appoint the commission.
What say You, Mr. Libertarian?

You remind me of something I

You remind me of something I came across while reseaching my "Tribute to Ron Wieck and Poetry Contest!"(look for it soon, moderator willing):

This man is supposed to be Libertarian. How does he pull that off? Every Libertarian I know is appalled by the Patriot Act, etc.

"There are more mysteries in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy", I suppose...

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

Can't even get a Shakespeare

Can't even get a Shakespeare quote right.

"Oh look! A bad guy!" *DUST*--Buffy

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

True, "mysteries" should be "things"; easy to Google, wasn't it? Unlike myself, I doubt you've actually read Shakespeare, FOR FUN. You seem more a cliff-notes kind of guy. Still, good eye--for a VAMPIRE.

Now get back in your coffin.

Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.

Deep Thoughts

I hate to be forced to point this out, but Mark's response indicates--get ready for a revelation--THAT HE WAS HERE!

Get it?

When he's not here, HE DOESN'T RESPOND!

Do you begin to see how this works?

Show "Reality Check" by Ronald Wieck

Are you talking? NEVER is a

Are you talking?

NEVER is a pretty long time.... unfortunately your government already admitted to working with Osama

We certainly did nothing to capture or kill him

Show "Give it Up, Already" by Ronald Wieck

Oh, Ronnie! It's not what

Oh, Ronnie! It's not what you think! I-uh- it's a trick! I'm PRETENDING to be with them again! And to prove it I'll kindly re-post a message I placed moments ago:

>>>"What the hell, Sparks

"What the hell, Sparks might buy it."

Right you are, Ronnie--I agree with everything you've written here!

In fact I should tell you I've blogged a Tribute dedicated to all your efforts--assuming I get past the "censorship" process! Ha, ha!

In fact, once published, I would encourage EVERYONE here who has something to say to Ronald Wieck, to come over and post it in the comments there, along with-Hopefully!-your poem!

greenback's been quite a dear having us, but it IS time to leave this blog for those who wish to discuss 911twoof, as opposed to praising Ronnie's many talents!

Hugs and kisses!!!
Submitted by Col. Jenny Sparks on Tue, 01/02/2007 - 4:20pm."<<<

So, let's all hold off sharing our feelings about Ronnie until my blog is up!!!!

Show "Doctor's Orders" by Ronald Wieck
Show "Meds?" by Anonymous (not verified)

where again does it say that

where again does it say that Osama bin Laden is wanted in connection with the Terrorist attacks on 9/11?

Wanted

He was wanted for the attacks on the Embassies in Africa.... I wonder if that FBI agent that met with him in Dubai while he was getting medical treatment knew about that?

Do they tell those FBI guys who the most wanted international terrorists are? They should consider having Monday morning meetings.... you know.... get everybody on the same page.

I think Osama was even numero uno at that time.... just imagine if our government had been warned explicitly over 50 times by many of the most informed intelligence agencies in the world... including our own..... again.... they should really try to have weekly meetings

Show "Another Canard" by Ronald Wieck
Show "Hopeless Attempt" by Ronald Wieck

Hey Moron, Why don't you do

Hey Moron,

Why don't you do a little research before you start poppin' off like a hysterical obsessive compulsive?

The FBIs own website says their mandate includes foreign, repeat foreign, counter-terrorism operations
http://www.fbi.gov/aboutus/faqs/faqsone.htm

THE FBI INVESTIGATION INTO THE SAUDI ARABIA BOMBING AND FOREIGN FBI INVESTIGATIONS by the House of Representatives, Subcommittee on Crime, Committee on the Judiciary opens with the statement:

"Today, our first hearing of the new Congress focuses on the investigative activities of the FBI outside the United States"

and

"the subcommittee must examine the criteria the FBI uses in determining whether to spend scarce time and taxpayer dollars to conduct investigations on foreign soil"

Read on moron.

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/judiciary/hju48300.000/hju48300_0.HTM

These two quotes are just the beginning of your embarrassment.

Show "I Don't Buy Bridges or Swampland" by Ronald Wieck

Oh my. How impressive. You

Oh my. How impressive. You say you spoke to an FBI guy. OOOooohhhh!

And I believe you?

Like I care?

Like it changes the fact that the FBI has no, repeat no, hard evidence connecting bin laden to 911? Nothing you say here, real or imagined (emphasis on "imagined") changes the fact that the FBI says they have no hard evidence connecting bin laden to 911. No one does. Period.

You're going to have to do better than fairy tales of "in house proof" and cosy little conversations with imaginary FBI operatives that you share such privileged and unique relationships with. Can you say fantasist?
And folks, let's remember, he not only spins this fantasy about unprovable imaginary conversations with FBI guys, but he actually expects us to believe his fantasies.

You're the one that's been flapping your gums about EVIDENCE in this thread. Yet when it comes time to put up or shut up, you cite fantasies about FBI guys you know that no one else on this blog thread knows and expect rational people to believe you?

EVIDENCE? Helllooooooooooooo!

I suggest you shut up. That way your embarrassment will be shorter lived.
You however will not take that advice since you are a hysterical obsessive compulsive.
You will make yourself look even stupider by trying to get us to believe that the FBI disagrees with its own assessment of the evidence it has (more like doesn't have) against bin laden.

And you call us the "fantasists" and carp about EVIDENCE.
Can you say moron? Can you say hypocrite? Can you say shill? I knew you could. Mind you it's not that hard when you're talking about Ronald Wieck (aka pomeroo)

Just so the rationally minded folks out there know, the FBIs own website listing the "Most Wanted"

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm

Has bin laden down for:

MURDER OF U.S. NATIONALS OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES; CONSPIRACY TO MURDER U.S. NATIONALS OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES; ATTACK ON A FEDERAL FACILITY RESULTING IN DEATH

Nowhere, repeat nowhere, does it make any mention of 911 or bin laden's alleged involvement in it.

That's why no rational individual believes the Bush fairy tale about bin laden and 911.

Show "No Talent for Con Games" by Ronald Wieck

For the sake of continuity,

For the sake of continuity, I'm posting the shill's nonsense in its (incoherent) entirety broken down into bite size vomit packs:

Shill's first utterance:

"I can say "fraud and liar" and you're both." Nobody, but nobody, believes that the FBI thinks bin Laden is unconnected with the jihadist attacks of 9/11."

Well if that's the case, shill, then prove it. You've got the link to the FBI site that says the FBI can't prove it, can't prove bin laden did 911. Innuendo won't do, shill. EVIDENCE is the key. Remember?

Anything less than proof is fantasy.

Shill's next utterance:

"The perpetrators of the attack were members of bin Laden's organization, al Qaeda."

Really? Is that so shill? Then let's see some proof.

Shill's next utterance:

"Your transparent logic-chopping, straining to discover a nuance that allows you to promote your deception, fools only the saps."

Pot calling the kettle black, shill? Again let's see some proof.

Don't you find it odd that I'm the only one supporting my arguments in this exchange, shill?

Or am I the only one doing any rational thinking?

So far I am.

You make it too easy to have fun with shills Wiecks. LOL

Shill's next utterance:

"The FBI's indcitment of bin Laden is the reason "no rational individual" blah, blah? Come on. You preposterous frauds can't even keep your stories straight. Does bin Laden exist or not?"

Gee what a great argument. Well reasoned, well researched well presented with deference to the basics of logic and argument.

Still waiting for proof Osama did 911. I'm waiting, shill.

Do you suppose the shill might try to roll out the Davin Coburn of Popular Mechanics (another shill, shill) attempt at bush apologetics and try to say they swept Ground Zero, the hundreds and hundreds of of tons of molten steel, dust and debris, for DNA and found the hijackers' DNA and then offer no proof of his assertion?

Why not? That's all he done in this thread.

One thing

One...one thin... leads to anoooother... dum...dum....dum

Who are you speaking with at the FBI? Are these people that you have sought out to talk to? or are these the people that they presented to you to talk to?

In amny cases they have people who are commissioned to answer the questions pertenant to 9/11..... kind of like FBI publicists.

People who have all the answers to all the questions...... and it's people like you who are still eager to trust..... to ask the soft questions.

Keep believing.....

I never said I was speaking

I never said I was speaking with people at the FBI. I don't need to. No one does. We have their assessment of the evidence they lack against bin laden. It's a matter of public record, shill.
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm

Your blather about publicists and trust is just that - blather.

Nothing you say changes the fact that Bush/the FBI have no hard evidence against bin laden.

None.

Going on about "eager to trust" is kind of ironic since you have bought into Wieck's fantasy about conversations with FBI personnel.

You want to carp about evidence. let's see it. I just showed you evidence. It's been shown a million times all around the world.

You can't change what the FBI says about its lack of evidence about bin laden and 911.
Buying into Wieck's fantasies and/or expecting us to buy into them is nothing more than fantasy itself.

You can't change that.

Show "Give it up, Already" by Ronald Wieck

Still waiting for proof,

Still waiting for proof, shill.

You sound pretty sure of yourself for someone who never presents any proof, shill.

Show "No Way Out" by Ronald Wieck

because we're winning

911 Truth is about way more than 911 — the larger thrust of this movement is the defeat of False Flag Terrorism as a cynically lethal weapon of horrific manipulation and the myth of Islamofascism.

We are determined to break before the faces of the neocon-proto-fascist oligarchs, driven by their psychopathological Nietzchien craving for endless war, their most potent weapon: State Sponsored False Flag Terror. This goes as well for their producing so-called, high-profile, targets, dead or alive at opportune moments — the jig is up! For the last 5 years the warning has been going out far and wide, loud and clear and people are starting to listen:

Any terrorist attacks anywhere in the world are as likely to be False Flag events as they are spontaneous, blow-back reprisals — any terrorists taken dead or alive are as likely to be patsies, cut outs or body doubles as they are anything resembling the real deal. And even the "real deal" is as likely to have been recruited at Brixton or Finsbury Mosques as from a mosque in Riad.

Again, in case you missed it: THE JIG IS UP, UP AND AWAY!!!!!!!!

ps: that's your cue...now take your show back to your head-banger, amateur-hour, open mic pub around the corner...where you left your life.

editorial "we" or really "you all"

Some folks here seem to be taking it very personally, the accusations that moles within the FBI and/or CIA ever derail investigations or plant disinfo. therein. It's hard to say if this is revealing of their mission or just alter egos.

This can all be taken in the context of release of numerous books now professing to deliver the inside scoop (" e.g. "Triple Cross," "On the Brink," "Fiasco" et al) we're seeing an unprecedented number of limited hangouts. Expect even more. From incompetence to politicizing the intelligence to al Queda's infiltration of the alphabet spooks, there is a way to explain everything that went wrong — a "perfect storm" of "failure," to say the least.

The alternate analysis (the one they're trying desperately to get put back into the bottle) is that 9/11 was a stunning intelligence "success." Ali Mohammad did not report to bin Laden, he ran him. Of course now I expect to be called a moron and unable to prove that statement. So waht — any quote from Peter Lance's book, I submit, fails to prove the contrary. I'm more inclined to believe Tarpley than Lance on the Ali Mohammad case, and more so than on any denials posted here.

Oh my, a little more

Oh my, a little more embarrassment moron.

From the
Oversight Hearing Regarding FBI Investigation Into Khobar Towers Bombing (02/12/97)

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1997_hr/h970212b.htm

"I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT, PRIOR TO CONDUCTING A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION INTERNATIONALLY, WE OBTAIN PERMISSION FROM THE HOST COUNTRY AND COORDINATE WITH THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE. ONCE IN COUNTRY, WE ACT UNDER THE AUTHORITY OF THE CHIEF OF MISSION, AND WE COORDINATE CLOSELY WITH THE CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY.

Did you see that moron? I'm sure you missed it so I'll point it out to you: "Once in Country". One more time in case you missed it again (would that be surprising?): "Once in Country".

Keep it up moron. You're doing more to make yourself the laughing stock of the internet than we ever could. We're just helping you along with it.

Show "Digging Deeper Holes" by Ronald Wieck

“The FBI is a domestic

“The FBI is a domestic law-enforcement agency”

Indeed, which is why it was so puzzling to Filipinos when a handful of FBI agents swooped into Davao, Philippines and -– "without the knowledge of any police, military or government official in the city or region” and “in an affront to Philippine sovereignty" – snatched a certain Michael Meiring and exported him back to the United States. Ol’ Meiring had just blown his legs off in a bomb-making mishap.

What was Meiring doing making bombs in the middle of the Philippines? And why did the FBI swoop in and rescue him in the same manner as British forces in Basra when two SAS officers were caught dressed up in Muslim attire with a car full of explosives?

The answer may lie with the munity of a handful of officers in the Philippine Army in Manilla who, in the summer of 2003, “accused their military brass and the Arroyo government of conspiring with the United States in "Operation Greenbase," which involved the staging of bombings on the island of Mindanao in order to justify an increased US presence” in the region.

Nothing new here. Same old same old. All indications are that “Al-Qaeda” is a simply a rehash of Operation Gladio, this time with a Muslim twist. Boogey man of communism dried up, needed a new one for empire and domestic repression.

Operation Gladio involved hundreds of false flag operations and hundreds of deaths. It was organized by Western Intell with the goal of discrediting the left. It was wildly successful and few suspected the dastardly plot until it was revealed years later in an Italian Parliamentary investigation. No doubt, had you been politically active at the time and had suspicions been as widespread as they are now about 911, you would have been just as shrill – and just as wrongheaded – in your opposition to truth seekers.

You see lad, this is what intelligence agencies do. They’re not out to protect ur freedum and catch the bad guys; they ARE the bad guys. You’re charmingly naïve quip about the FBI is revealing. No doubt, you think the CIA operates solely outside of US borders. That fact that operation CHAOS is about as about as well-documented as any alphabet agency operation before or since will not deter you in this delusion. You’re willfully ignorant and, apparently, about as knowledgeable about the subject matter you’re barking about as your average moony eyed schoolboy.

Here’s a hint: intelligence do bad things in name of greater good. Intelligence is deceptive. Intelligence easily deduce that bomb go off people afraid blame it on enemies. Intelligence put two and two together.

What the CIA saiz on its website for kids is not necessarily the whole truth, dig?

Read your Machievelli. Do your homework. Stop it with the sweeping statements about what did or didn’t happen on 911 as if you had any fucking clue. The brazen certainty with which you put forth your arguments is itself an indication of your incompetence. The fact that you will grasp at any straw to defend the OFT is an indication of your lying soul. In future, you may want to try the limited hangout approach, stressing, for instance, bad apples or massive incompetence – it’s a lot more believable than the (frankly) laughable assertions you have put forth on this thread.

Bin Laden “head” of “Al-Qaeda” org? Hell, even Tony Blair admitted that Al-Qaeda is not an “organization” but an ideology. Such as any “organization” called Al-Qaeda exists it is clearly a baby of Western Intelligence. Al Mohammed’s own instructor claimed:

"I think you or I would have a better chance of winning Powerball (a lottery), than an Egyptian major in the unit that assassinated Sadat would have getting a visa, getting to California . . . getting into the Army and getting assigned to a Special Forces unit," he said. "That just doesn't happen. "

It was equally unthinkable that an ordinary American GI would go unpunished after fighting in a foreign war, he said. Anderson said all this convinced him that Mohamed was "sponsored" by a U.S. intelligence service. "I assumed the CIA," he said.

AS for Bin Laden, the people who actually knew him described him as quite clueless. He couldn’t even quote the Koran without tripping up his lines. He denied involvement in the attacks immediately after 911. Later recordings have proved highly suspect, as a certain Swiss Institute reveals. The CIA “Bin Laden fanclub” is clearly blowing smoke up your ass with respect Bin Laden’s genius; only a few nitwits are dull enough to buy the mythology. But he fulfilled his purpose in classic patsy fashion.

We don’t know what happened on 911. We only know that the OFT stinks to high heaven. So we’re asking questions. The government, so far, has not been forthcoming with answers to said questions. That anyone would attempt to deter folks in these enquiries is quite disturbing, frankly, and one can only speculate as to the motivation. Whether dollars, faux-patriotism or flat out insanity, you’re on the wrong side of history and your name will not be forgotten when the dam breaks.

Sweet dreams…

Show "Yes, we do know." by Anonymous (not verified)

wrong again

it's the admin. that's got nothing - nothing but one lousey case against a mentally ill patsy - a case in which half their evidence was thrown out and the patsy kept changing his plea bargain statements almost hourly - that's who's go nothing - 5 years and they got this one lousey pathetic conviction and the guy didn't even do it - moreover all they got around the country is more pathetic show case convictions against wannabe basket case recruits - half of them suckered by some kind of FBI sting — there's your bleeding War Of Terror...that's your nada, bub, that's your zilch, that's your dai maru!

Gee what a brilliant

Gee what a brilliant stratagem. No facts to back up your arguments so you start in with the name calling.
All form no substance. Do you reallly think it will work shill? Do you think we won't notice your utter lack of EVIDENCE?

Who cares if the FBI accepts the authenticity of the Osama tapes?

Just because someone says they did something doesn't mean they did it, shill.

Proof is the criterion. Remember? EVIDENCE. Remember?

Of course you don't. You're a shill.

Changing the subject doesn't help you. You have no idea what you're talking about. This exchange proves it.
And, in case there was any doubt, let's not forget this little gem of yours (Tue, 01/02/2007 - 7:54pm):

"The much-maligned Patriot Act has granted the FBI greater scope for investigating suspected terrorists and for sharing information with other intelligence agencies."

More deception and evasion by the shill hoping we won't read his posts or do some fact checking. One of the links I posted is to a congressional committee hearing from 1997, shill
http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/judiciary/hju48300.000/hju48300_0.HTM

Now you don't even know your history at a grade one level. Just so you know 1997 came before 2001 and the Patriot Act. HEeelllloooooooooooooooooooo!

I don't know which video(s) you're talking about but at least one is an outright fraud. In the video put out December 13, 2001, one of the Osamas write notes with his right hand, yet the FBI's description of Osama says he's left-handed
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm
One of the Osamas is wearing a large gold ring in the video. Just so you know shill. The wearing of gold rings is forbidden by Islam. So much for the radical Islamist extremist, eh shill?
A Duke Prof who is an expert on bin laden says the bin laden tape of January 2006 is not credible
If two tapes have no credibility why should I believe any tape(s)?

BTW shill, that same expert says bin laden is dead.

Why should we believe any Osama tapes when tapes are the easiest thing to fake? Experts say they are.
Many in the Muslim world think the bin laden tapes are fakes

There is no proof bin perpetrated did 911. If the FBI was so enamored of the bin laden tapes why does it not list bin laden on its "Most Wanted" list for 911? Any ideas shill?
Should be easy to answer, shill. According to you, he confessed to 911.

Oh darn there's that stubborn constant - EVIDENCE.

BTW I don't have to explain anything to you, shill.

Here's the link to the Duke

Here's the link to the Duke Prof, shill:

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=local&id=3828678

Show "Stuck for an Answer" by Ronald Wieck

t

He really is too stupid to live, isn't he, friends? He actually BELIEVES he can catch someone in his farcical trap.

He sets up the strawman argument that people here claim that Osama -- the person -- doesn't exist, or never existed, assuming he's dead. We all know that it's been documented that Osama was a CIA asset for years, but that doesn't penetrate a feeble-minded, black/white, good/evil, authoritarian paradigm. It's like talking to a sack of hammers.

And aren't you sick of hearing about how tired he is repeating the same crap over and over? Like we aren't sick of his doing same? Like anyone here doesn't understand his cognitive dissonance, his inability to see this issue as being divorced from an irrelevant left/right paradigm? Like we haven't noticed that he doesn't relent on issues that even the Zelikow Commission and members of the administration have conceded? That this has become a fetish for the poor, sick phuck, like Hoover in dresses and heels?

I wish that he would eat something different for breakfast tomorrow because I'm TIRED of seeing the same offal puked up each day.

This freak of consciousness should go back to mama's basement and play with her shoes, or look at pictures of children dying in Iraq and contemplate his contribution to the tsunami of lies.

But inspired by LeftWright, whose posts are so full of kind spirit, I will grudgingly admit that it must totally suck to be Ronald Weick -- and for that I am truly sorry.

Art of War

Ignore strong points

Inject Strawman

Lure opposition

Defeat Strawman

Win by not actually winning

Show "Verdict" by Ronald Wieck

WRONG

acttually, it's becoming more focued all the time - it's the coverup that's becoming "fatih based" - it's the coverup that is a house of cards ready to tumble and once a few of the perps are in the doc, charged with treason and shown the noose — the result of their VERDICT — they'll start flipping like hot cakes...that is unless they get beamed up or something...like that star wars thing you keep bringing up...yeah, that's the ticket; that's the thing that'll save their asses...beam 'em up Ronnie.

Show "No Way Out" by Ronald Wieck

Ronnie!

Who said Osama doesn't exist?
And Ronald, good sir, do you believe that Bin Laden has no ties to the CIA?
If this is so, and I can prove to you with their own documents that he is, will you leave this site for good?
If so, I will stick your foot in your mouth about this fact that even 90% of you coincidence theorists know.
So, for the record, you are stating that we believe Osama is make-believe and that you believe he has ZERO CIA ties, correct?
Thanks!

If Osama has ties to the

If Osama has ties to the CIA, and they were willing to fake him admitting it or something (thought I saw something about that) why didn't they fake his death before the last election?

Bin Laden = CIA = Common Knowledge

Kage, what if they were saving Bin Laden for the 2008 election?
Why didn't they kill him off right after the invasion of Afghanistan? That would make Bush and co. look like heroes!
Why didn't they kill him off a few years ago when the American public turned on the war on terror?
Why didn't they just plant weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?
Those are questions none of us can answer. You expect me to see the whole spectrum of their plan? How could I possibly do that? I can only see what they have done already.
Now ask yourself this question:

Why did bin laden's first response state that he had nothing to do with 9/11 then, weeks later, he admits to the attacks in a video where he looks overweight, his nose is much thicker and he gestures, eats AND writes with his right hand when he is known worldwide to be left-handed?

I'm just waiting for one of these shills to say Bin Laden and Al Queda has had NO ties to CIA over the last 30 or so years.
Cmon, someone say it!

One Mo' Time

You acknowledge your helplessness when confronted by the Osama conundrum.

Osama's first video was a ritualistic denial, explained on the Islamist websites as a tactic to sow confusion. I note that you repeat the canard that Osama doesn't look like himself in the video where he acknowledges his role in the planning of the attacks. This is a battle the conspiracy liars can never win. When you invite people to look at the whole video, and not just the single most most distorted photo taken from it, you blow your own case. The guy in the video is obviously Osama.

He is "known" worldwide to be lefthanded? Really? Known by whom? I sometimes hold my fork in my left hand, sometimes in my right. Has anyone ever observed Osama to write with his left hand? Who? The truth is, the CIA doesn't even know his exact height.

Okay, I'll say it. Osama has ZERO ties to the CIA. He has rejected every offer ever extended to him by American intelligence. He is by no stretch of the imagination a CIA asset. If he were an asset, what benefits have been derived?

I watched the entire video

That is not Osama bin Laden..... I guess we could always ask his family what they think...... but then again did we ask them anything prior to evacuating them out of the country when no other planes were allowed to fly?

Stop Fooling Yourself

Of course, it's Osama. You conspiracy liars are clones of the O.J. jury. Show a video of O.J. decapitating Nicole and they'll shrug and tell you it's a fake. Considering that the guy in the video is an EXACT double of Osama, and considering that the entire Muslim world regards it as authentic, you have permitted your political agenda to overrule the evidence of your senses.

Very sad.

Show "The Unanswerable Question" by Ronald Wieck

Puzzle

Would you sacrafice the control of the House and Senate if that gave you the best shot at the White House? I would.

If they can sweep speculation about the viability of the electronic voting machines under the rug.... by 2008 everyone will be forced to vote using these machines.... the White House could then be given to whomever they please.... and whomever that person may be.... Republican or Democrat.... they will be the person that they choose to be President.

Do you think this will all die when Bush and Cheney are gone?

They have worked far too dilligently to walk away from this. You have nott seen behind the curtain..... have you ever pondered.... the scenario that we are correct? Have you ever tought about what that would mean?

This isn't a preschool puzzle with 4 pieces... each with their own designated hole.... This is complicated..... exactly the way they want it to be... or at least appear to be.

If the questions we are asking are so easy to answer..... then they should address them.

Show "Osama Conundrum Revisited" by Ronald Wieck

If Osama was dead?

The last thing our government wants to do is tell us that Osama is dead..... even if he is dead and they know it. Osama is their perfect stooge.... the big bad Boogeyman.

No amount of good publicity will help this administration..... but a Boogeyman is very useful. All he has to allegedly do is make a tape every once in a while to keep the fear in your face..... He's great to manipulate peoples thoughts... like that time he told everyone to vote for John Kerry!?!? Reverse Psychology at it's finest.... Still laughing about that one.

And hell... when you have a FBI willing to make the tapes and then authenticate them..... it's easy money.

They need to have Osama come out and tell us to impeach the President... ooooh... that would be a good one... because we would never adhere to the wishes of Osama.... he's the bad man!

Osama is nothing but a puppet show..... keep him in the box untill you need to put on a show.

The Osama Confession tape.... I dare you to go there Ronnie..... the camera adds ten pounds..... guessing the Osama confession was being filmed by at least 5 cameras..... cause the guy really put on some weight..... being on dialasis in a cave.

Show "Cut the Crap" by Ronald Wieck

Who'd the naive one?

If you have not noticed.... they are running out of video footage to splice together to make any fresh Osama videos....they have been caught splicing videos multiple times.... so now they resort to audio only... or have Osamas underlings make the videos. The Osama confession is obviously faked... the guy hardly even speaks...

and If the Republicans actually wanted to win this election..... they would have sent Rumsfeld packing prior to the election. A dead Osama would not have salvaged their chances even if they wanted to win.

But they were feeling the heat. They know full well that people are waking up to their little game. They wanted the Dems to win. The Democrats winning would buy them some time. Right now Bush is simply trying to ride this out and hopefully get away with his hide still intact.

We are onto 9/11... we are onto the rigged voting machines.... we are onto their lies.... when the democrats won it took the heat off many of the issues.

They have enough control over the Democrats to keep their train rolling..... and the Democrats also serve their purpose.... the Democrats want things that Bush and his cronies want as well but they know the Republicans would not pass.... so the Democrats come in and serve their purpose.... allowing immigrant amnesty..... and possibly imposing gun control measures.

both those things are imperative to their plans.

The onlt thing seperating us from a fascist system is the fact that we have a two party system..... but if you control both sides of the fence forming a majority.... it may appear to be two party but in reality it is only one. Leaving the honest politicians in a quagmire... simply treading water and making no headway.

Insane Excuses

How can someone as mindless as you be "onto" anything. You are clearly "on" something, but that's another story.

The best you pathetic frauds can come up with is, the Republicans WANTED the Democrats to win?!? When you're reduced to such hopelessly pathetic yarnspinning, why not fold up shop and admit that your imbecilic and pernicious attempt to exonerate the jihadists has crashed and burned?

Rigged machines? Where? The Kerry campaign didn't notice; their army of statisticians and pollsters didn't, that is. Oh, I get it: Bob Fitrakis knows something the math geeks don't.

Conspiracy liars toss off whoppers like "they have been caught splicing videos multiple times" so casually, you start to wonder if they believe their own codswallop. No, no one has been caught splicing videos. The technical term for what you are doing is LYING.

If the Osama "confession" (it is, of course, no such thing: it is a proud acknowledgment of his role) is faked, then why doesn't he complain? Sending Rumsfeld packing would not have changed a single vote, but killing Osama would have been the Impossibly Vast Conspiracy's greatest victory yet in the War on Terror.

The Democrats' victory buys WHO some time? Do you clowns ever read what you write? I may be the first to break the news to you, but neither Bush nor Cheney are ever going to run for office again. Who are "they" in "they wanted the Democrats to win"?

I'm a little confused. Your comic book villain, Bush, is opposed to gun control, but your heroes are for it. Can you sort that out for me?

Can you people possibly be even dumber than I feared?

Crazy?

OK Ronnie.

get on google video... look for "Freedom to Fascism"

Give this a look.... then come back and share with us all the things you just learned.

Voting Machines can be easily tampered with or hacked.... the paper trail receipt is a smoke screen made to make people feel like there is some way to double check.... but what they don't think about ....is for that to actually work.... every single person would have to come in with their receipt and you'd have to do a recount....counting every receipt and checking it against the result.... good luck with that

the machines were designed to be hacked....

How many hours did Kerry's people think about that one?..... they must be really smart.... cause it took them waht?.... 4 hours? Kerry gave up... just like he was supposed to.... S & B

Gore was robbed..... and I don't think you want to go there Ronnie.... cause you will be embarassed on the subject of the 2000 Election Fraud..... remeber "Hanging Chads"?.... 9/11 provided the necessary cover for that interesting turn of events.... Please challenge me on this.... I dare you.

Splicing videos: There was a video released by "Al-CIAda" which had footage which was the same footage that was in a BBC documentary released several months earlier.... How did the BBC get ahold of the footage and put it into their documentary before the video tape had surfaced? Maybe they had the same cameraman?.... but the FBI said it was legit.

The FBI has said several bin Laden tapes were legit.... some after only analyzing them for a few hours when it should take 24 to 48 hours to evaluate.... Tapes that when examined by experts on bin Laden from major universities like Duke.... passioantely denied their authenticity.

And you may think that Bush is against gun control.... but you'd be wrong on that as well..... that man would pass a bill to take our guns quicker than you could bat an eyelid.

Man.... this world is going to sneak up on you.

How do you feel about gun control, Ronnie?

Ronnie?

You don't care to discuss the 2000 Election?

I called you out..... are you still studying?.... this might be your next "big story"

Hanging Chads

I'll tell you exactly what caused the "Hanging Chads".... pre-punched ballots..... you take a bunch of ballots.... pre-punch them for your candidate.... if the votes votes for the other candidate.... the ballot is double punched and is therefore thrown out.....

so if a ballot is pre-punched Republican and the voter votes for the Democratic candidate.... the vote is no good.... so all the democratic votes get tossed.... the Republican wins easily.....

and you'd only have to insert the pre-punched balllots into a few of the areas of Democrat support and you win the election..... very sneaky.

Where did the "Hanging Chad" come from?..... well.... my guess is that they tried to punch multiple ballots at one time in an effort to save time.... punching those ballot one at a time would take far too long especially for the number of people they probably had doing this.... wouldm't want thousands of helpers... they could let it slip..... they probably stacked ten or more on top of each other then tried to punch through them all at once...... thus leaving the unclean punch..... the "Hanging Chad"

they were not counting the ballots again..... they were double checking the tossed ballots to confirm that they had been double punched.... if the decided no then the vote was counted.

If you remember... the issue with the ballots was the "Hanging Chads".... never heard of that before or since

So the point of 9/11 was the

So the point of 9/11 was the police state and not the Iraq war? Osama is great for stuff like the patriot act, but isn't related to the Iraq war and prolly makes things hard with saudi arabia. I just don't see Osama as the ideal bagguy he needs to be in the MIHOP scenario.

[deleted--double post]

[deleted--double post]

What The Hell Wonnie?

You said your anal(ytical) skills were vastly superior..to whose? And you have Christopher Hitchens as a source?
That just gives you like no credibility there, in My book, 'cause He is no different than you. But you did not say it with Me, Wonnie: Dietrich Snell...Dietrich Snell...You know, the 9/11 Commissions Senior Counsel? You know, the one who knew about the Bojinka plot?
And We really don't believe Bush is pulling the strings here, He is just the "facilitater", a useful idiot. Cheney ,on the other hand brings to mind Haliburton and Enron just to name a couple.
Say it with Me Wonnie....Enron, Enron..it's a fascist government now, and Haliburton..say it with Me Wonnie..H-a-l-i-b-u-r-t-o-n.
Sure, now they are being chastised for their ineptness..but hey you can do what you want with a ...say it with Me Wonnie..No bid contract...and the fine is nothing after the profit they have made.
Those are only a couple of examples of who is making the money, Wonnie. But thats Ok with you, so many have been killed, so many lives destroyed, 2 countries in ruins, soldiers caught in a quagmire with no plan for getting out soon, families of victims being called all kinds of names with no concern about their desire for another investigation to give them some closure and to give Us answers to many questions that are not answered, We don't buy yours, Wonnie, because, quite frankly All We have gotten from the government is resistance. A government that if it was transparent would not give so much resistance to its' people and trust them completely, a government that now officially uses torture, We are no longer a civil nation, We are a terrorist Nation. Thats what you are siding with Wonnie, thats what you are protecting.We are quite capable of handling whatever comes and We can change this system of secrecy ,this system of War, this system of torture as a policy, this hiding of many things, this interpreting the Constitution to fit the Neocon agenda instead of interpreting it in the historical context,if We so desire. That is what the government is so afraid of, so they send out people like you to spew forth their story and claim that We are crazy with your gobs of misinformation mixed with shades of truth. No different than Fox News, but lest You forget Mr. Libertarian if you ever find Yourself in a courtroom and try to use the Constitution to defend yourself, do not be surprised if You find the Patriot Act as one of the tools used to cancel out Your civil liberties.
And where did you get that "We think Osama is dead" bit from?

Democratic Fascism

So, widdle Mikey, the bid bad fascist government ends in two years when Bush and Cheney retire. Jeepers, widdle Mikey, dat's an awfooey stwange sort of fascist government. Do you suppose the Russians should have simply VOTED Stalin out of office? Maybe the Germans could have done the same with Hitler? Why didn't they think of that?

One would almost expect, having taken such elaborate (not to say, impossible) steps to establish absolute power, that the Impossibly Vast Conspiracy would have, uh, resisted a bit more strenuously when the voters stripped them of most it? Ah, But that's a logical consideration, and what is logic to a conspiracy liar?

Seriously, I understand perfectly. When this nation is attacked by foreign enemies, the ONLY response that will not demonstrate the existence of a murderous conspiracy within our own government just happens to be passive acceptance of heavy casualties. Now, why on earth would anyone ever think of accusing you creeps of being unpatriotic? Now, there's a mystery!

what if?

What if another event happens.... bigger than 9/11?

What if that event happens before the next election?

Do you think we will still have an election?

Have you ever heard of Martial Law?

Do you know who takes full and total control during Martial Law due to recent legislation?

Who would take control of every states National Guard.... Homeland Security....FEMA..... Police.... FBI....CIA... most likely UN troops.... and the Most Powerful Arsenal In The World?!
And don't forget their other little weapons.... the "Patriot Act" and the "Military Commissions Act"

What happens..... if we are right....... and the people who pulled off 9/11 are the same people willing and ready to pull off something bigger?

What if we are right?

Are you ready? Are you trying to set your plate at their table?

Wake up Ronnie.... We are fighting for you!

Please--Fight the Jihadists for Me

Yes, I guarantee that we will have an election in 2008. I remember a nutter in early 2004 pretending that Bush intended to "call off the elections" (as if he could!). I asked what the odds were that the elections would actually be cancelled. He replied that he thought it was even-money. I told him that it was his lucky day: I was willing to offer him odds of fifty-to-one that the elections would go off as scheduled. He seemed hesitant, so I upped the bet to 100-1. Wouldn't you know it?--he doesn't make bets.

Do you grasp the idea that the whole Bush team LEAVES in two years? Do you think you can sustain this insanity through Hillary's term?

So your anal(ytical) skills are vastly superior?

So here goes widdle Wonnie speaking again...2 more years of Repuglican and then....what..no more bad guys?
Us "conspiracy theorists" will be chasing ghosts of imagined terrorists within the government for 2 more years, and so after that We have no more concern about our fascist Bushie Administration?
Is that what you deduct from your "superior intellect"? Well do you suppose someone like Stalin had ever said; "It's not the votes that matter to Me, it's those who count the votes".
And did not Hitler conspire with Herman Ghoering to burn the Reichstag? And then blame it on communists?
Consequently, the German people surrendered their civil liberties soon afterward. Hitler told them that this is for their security. Now what is that term that gets used? Oh yeah; Be a good German..(Don't question whats going on).
Now isn't it an odd thing of how relative and incredibly similar these things are. Germany still has not had a Constitution since WWII.
Your arguement claims that all these bad guys are attacking Us, had attacked Us, will be attacking Us... for how long? I think that since this country is an empire, you are oppressing some country , somewhere, at any given time there is going to be some blowback (Well, I just gave you the Noam Chomsky in a nutshell "leftist" view). BUT the government had foreknowledge of possibly using planes as missles to strike at Us since 1995, they have had training about how to thwart these types of possible "terrorist" attacks. The BOJINKA plot Wonnie. And all it took was 19 hijackers with box cutters? Uh huh...hmmmm.
Think about that..19 hijackers with box cutters...that is so damn ridiculous. Hell, the more funny part is they identified the DNA of one of them.....and that was taken from the wreckage of collapsed trade towers...and somehow they had a previous sample of this same person..Wake up Wonnie, look at the story your supporting. Look at it...isn't it just so crazy? Why We could end up waging war with Syria AND Iran within 2 years, because of 19 hijackers with box cutters. Hollywood couldn't have come up with anything so...so....so ficticious sounding than that one. Wake up Ronnie

You Can't be Serious

I wish you'd stop pretending you're brain-dead. The hijackers used KNIVES. Apparently, two of them had box-cutters; the rest used knives.

Forensic teams matched the DNA at the crash sites with DNA obtained from hotel rooms and rental cars. Duh, nobody ever wondered how they matched the hijackers' DNA--you are the very first person to ask where the samples came from. Can't you guess that this was the first question a reporter would ask?

Good Lord! You people can't be real.

finally, the magic DNA; that's the ticket

More powerful than raging fires - powerful enough even to empower one to fly a jumbo jet like a fighter pilot -- that's the ticket; yeah, that's it; they were all injected with magic DNA in their hotel rooms the night before; yeah, that's how they did it; magic DNA explains it all - we found it and now we know how they did it.

YOU can't be serious!

Wow, Wieck. You must have seen the videos from the security cameras on the planes (I didn’t even know they had those). How else could you know that they used KNIVES? Oh right. The description by the calm and observant passengers on their cell phones. Or maybe knives were recovered from the crash scenes with their fingerprints on them?

And the DNA… How convenient that the FBI had all the hijackers neatly identified within 24 hours (nice of Atta to leave that list for them). That way, they could just work backwards and track down their DNA from their hotel rooms and rental cars. Let’s not worry about the several “misidentified” hijackers who were still alive in other countries. Actually, that made it a lot easier to get DNA samples from them...just mail them directly to the FBI lab. And as you know, the pathology reports are easily available to the public—which is how we’d know they all matched. Those forensic teams did a great job collecting every last tooth from all 4 crash sites.

Wieck, this crap keeps just coming out of you, with no end in sight. You’re sitting in your own feces up to your eyeballs.
Please, go away and don't come back.

What?

Go Away?

No!... I want him to stay.... he challenges us....

we may not learn anything from him..... but just think about how good he is making us look!!!

Challenge Accepted

Hey, Andrew, I thought you'd be out of breath from running.

The crowd is wondering why you fled when I accepted your phony challenge. Remember, all the rationalists know the reason. But your fellow liars are curious to know why you allowed me to humiliate you again.

So, Andrew, I suggested several ways you could open my eyes. How are you progressing with those refutations of the real scientists?

You look real bad. Frauds can't be offering challenges. Challenges get accepted sometimes.

I wonder if it could have

I wonder if it could have anything to do with your incredibly rude and egotistical demeanor?

All I have seen from you is 20% discussion and 80% insults. One would think that you could do your posting here without your ego, but apparently you don't mind coming off as an arrogant and pompous ass. The fact that you can't make a single comment without aggressive undertones or overt insults just paints your argument as weak and needing of an extra 'edge'.

Pot and Kettle Business

Oh, sure, I'll buy your falsehood that I started the name-calling. There is the tiny problem that all of this stuff acually appears on the screen, so it's possible to determine exactly who started the ad hominem attacks.
But, that's evidence--a fantasist don' need no stinkin' evidence.

Look, this thread is winding down. My purpose was to see if I could squeeze one drop of actual evidence, one remotely plausible belief, from anyone. It can't be done. You have these unfalsifiable beliefs rooted in your hatred of either this country or its government. You can never hope to explain to anyone rational what persuaded you, against all evidence, that a fantastic, mathematically-impossibly conspiracy was formed to attack American institutions and pin the blame on avowed enemies of this country who had been attacking us for a decade. You just really, really hate the idea of America being perceived as the victim of an unprovoked attack. The Great Satan MUST be guilty.

ronny the clown said-"Oh,

ronny the clown said-"Oh, sure, I'll buy your falsehood that I started the name-calling."

in other words, HE STARTED IT!!!!!! grow up old man, its time to mature. look in the mirror already you pathetic lapdog.

Challenge Accepted (Third Posting)

Andrew, you appear to be in the throes of a nervous breakdown. Every time I post my acceptance of your phony challenge, you run away and return the next day to pretend that I haven't responded. The people here are, for the most, not too bright, but they are getting restless. You must realize that they can SEE my response; I regard your self-destruction as great slapstick comedy, but just as a matter of protocol, I will repost my response every single time you feign insanity (hmmm, are you "feigning"?).
********************************

Originally posted three days ago:

Gee, Andrew, you sound so sincere. And you are so good at presenting the real Twoof. Let's see, now:

You could start by showing us a few errors in the Protec paper. You've been promising us for months. That should be simple enough. Brent Blanchard is merely a demolition expert, while you are a universal genius. Tell us where he goes wrong.

Here's another easy one: The avionics tech who writes as "Apathoid" has written a paper (available on 911myths.com, in "Investigations, more") explaining why Boeing 767s and 757s are not wire-to-wire planes and cannot be flown by remote control. Now, we will agree that the reality of actual hijackers flying actual planes into buildings is, shall we say, somewhat inconvenient to the fantasy movement. Show us what Apathoid gets wrong. Hint: a conspiracy liar who calls himself "Remove_Bush" is currently taking a shot at this on JREF (see the thread, "How Loony are the Loons?"). He is not doing too well. To be more precise, the avionics techs, flight computer specialists, and NASA engineers are, frankly, tearing him a new one. I guess they're all shills, right. Why not drop in and show them what they're missing? Should be easy for you to put these dummies in their place, no?

You might want to warm up on this one: Dr. Frank Greening, a mere molecular chemist with a side of radiation physics, has written a paper demolishing Jim Hoffman's bogus science (again available on 911myths.com, in "Investigations, more"). Greening, a Welshman now living in Canada, doesn't think very highly of George Bush, but we'll pretend that he's another shill (defined as someone whose arguments can't be refuted). I think that if you rescued Hoffman and exposed Greening as a know-nothing, you would go a long way toward changing my belief that conspiracy liars are ignorant frauds.

Here's one off the top of my head: Jim Fetzer suffered a humiliating beating at the hands of J.R. Dunn in their debate on americanthinker.com. Dunn made it appear as though poor Fetzer didn't have the slightest idea of what the hell he was talking about--that old Jim couldn't distinguish an A-3 from an A-4. I think you should set the record straight. Show us why the military historian Dunn is all wet when he tries to discuss military aircraft.

You might want to look into Bernacchia's paper on the Flight 77 hijackers. He's a longtime pilot and flight instructor who wrote a paper (see 911myths.com) explaining in great detail how Hanjour, et al., accomplished their mission. One of the frauds on this blog has already announced that he wouldn't even consider attempting to refute Bernacchia. Why not display some cajones and tell us where this misguided shill goes wrong?

Well, I gave the matter some serious thought. You won't give it any thought at all. Aren't you lucky that the people here don't care and will refuse to draw any conclusions?

Submitted by Ronald Wieck on Mon, 01/01/2007 -

No Rescue in Sight

Andrew, It occurs to me that you are attempting this insane deception to buy time. You imagine that Jon Gold will eventually ban me and nobody will remember your craven flight.
Well, I'm no good at predictions, but Jon, for whatever reason, has allowed this brawl to continue. Until something changes, he has commendably, IMHO, decided to permit free speech.

It doesn't look like the cavalry is coming. You dug this hole and no one seems willing to pull you out.

What will you do?

Recap

Almost four hundred posts and you clowns have recycled your pathetic, thoroughly debunked falsehoods and called me names. Yeah, you look great.

Let me return to the beginning of the thread:

In five years of deranged screaming, the 9/11 Fantasy movement has produced bogus science, distorted quotes, and outright falsehoods. If the conspiracy liars have anything else, they certainly haven't revealed it here.

I must admit that the simpleton who acknowledges that it is impossible for tinfoil-hatters to learn anything from me is completely correct.

Show "Endlessly Recycled Conspiracy Lies" by Ronald Wieck

Stop with the Strawmen

Ronnie,

Show me the link to those manifests.... with their names on it?

Are You Really Interested?

There are several articles on 911myths.com. Your choices are to read them or stop pretending that the subject interests you. The specific link you want is here:

http://911myths.com/html/the_passengers.html

Passenger manifests are not available to the public.

easy

Wouldn't it be easier to publish the actual manifests?

Instead they show ONE media person from ONE media source.... "The Globe".... and they can not republish the actual list

but they can publish this diagram?????

what's so secret about those manifests?

http://graphics.boston.com/news/packages/underattack/images/aa_flight_11...

which shows a plane which is mostly vacant..... but shows the passengers on the plane all sitting together... how nice....

Show "Reality Check" by Ronald Wieck

This one sits atop the heap!!!!

This is Ronnies "Cherry-on-top" statement.

Trying to cap the end of this 400 post long "debate".... if that's what you'd you'd like to call it.

I feel like I could spend all night just responding to the statements you just made in that last post.
It's sitting at a -3 right now and I;m guessing that even the most open minded people on this site would take a negative to this statement.

You really have shown your true colors.

Flight Manifests: I understnd the premise behind not disclosing flight manifests. Yes, this policy is there for a reason. But this was no ordinary event. This was 9/11 and there are serious questions to be answered about these manifests. If ou are going to release...and have released the names of all the passengers. Then there is absolutely no sense in withholding these documents.
And just because their names were on the manifests.... does not mean that they were on the plane. There is no system to make sure the people actually boarded that plane. There is only video of these allegid men going through security. They could have easily just walked out the nearest exit. There may be cameras at the exits.... but there are no security check points unless you go through an international terminal.

I love this country very dearly. I want nothing more to see this country restored to it's former grandure. When this country was respected for it's values and freedom. Before we had been hijacked by a mafioso style criminal element. The deeper I dig into this cess pool of less than humanity... the harder it is to imagine someone like you Ronnie who see absolutely nothing amiss here. I might have lost a few marbles along the way dealing with people like you but I really don't think I'm the CRAZY one here.

"Lunatic"... a person of unsound mind.... I can only smile.... because if I start to laugh at you I might not stop at this point.

"fabricating an insane conspiracy myth"..... yes a myth... that I alone created.. after 4 months of solid research just to ome to the realization that there were serious questions that needed answers. Then daily research for three years to get where I am now. 9/11 and the quest for answers...for truth... is far bigger than me.... or what I know or what I think.

"crazed, agenda-driven extremists".... We are so extreme! We say everything with exclamation points!
Yes we have this huge agenda.... We are making up these wild tales because we need to fabricate a intricate fable in order to get dirt on this squeaky clean President in order to find something to be able to impeach him. We just cant find one other thing that will get the job done. We need 9/11 because we have nothing else. You really believe that this is something that we needed to contrive for this purpose?
If that is not it then waht do you think our hidden agenda is?

"gigantic, mathematically-impossible cabal consisting of members of our own government"...
GIGANTIC!... yes man this issue is one of the biggest issue this world may ever know! Mathematicly Impossible... I smile once again.... I almost want to feel pity for you..... but I can not empathise.
Do not speak to the math of this because that would mean that you are attempting to speak to the physics of this and I really do not think that you have the knowledge or the skill. I want to know what you feel is Mathematicly Impossible?

The fact that planes were allowed anywhere near Washington DC over an hour after the Twin Towers were obviously targeted by persons wishing to do harm to our nation?
I could let the examples fly... but it would do no good.

& the Cabal with-in our government does exist.... these people who reside in many of the positions of power in our government.... they have been in and out of those positions since before Gerald Ford put his stamp on the Warren Report. You act like these men have not set the standard for people working their way up. You think these people don't know the in's and out's of every aspect of this government. You don't think that in 40+ years they could put a stranglehold on how things operate.... front door or back door... black ops or in plain sight?

You are naive Sir.

"straining to pretend "....the last time I pretended and strained was when I took my last sh@t.... and I pretended it was you and your arguments getting flushed.

"Are the airlines lying?"... they certainly are not telling the truth.... and it's very obvious that they have much to hide!

"Is the FAA inventing passenger lists?"... At this point I wouldn't put it past them. How hard could it be? That would be the least difficult aspect of this crime.... besides dropping the passport on the sidewalk as everyone was looking up at the Twin Towers on FIRE!!! after they were struck by what appeared to be two passenger airliners!!!

"Do teams of hundreds of investigators fan out over the country to produce NOTHING?".... YES!.. .you act like that's something new. But they appear to be very skilled at DNA collection and testing. Who would have gotten all of Atta's Koran Collection if his will had actually made it onto the plane? He probably should have taken all those things he would have needed to fly that plane in his carry-on baggage instead of checking them too. He was so very sophisticated... but it was very fortunate for the FBI..... all that stuff.. he probably also left a vile of his DNA for sampling.

"Why do we need intelligence-gathering services at all?" I'm starting to wonder.... so was JFK if I'm correct..... but then again... if we didn't have the CIA where would we get all of our drugs?? and probably half of all nefarious deeds going on subvertly around the world right now.... Bay of Pigs... Not OK'd by JFK.... but he was enough of a man to take the blame and then deal with the actions his own way.

"We could simply put two college kids in a room, hand them a couple of joints, and tell them to make up names"... they probably would have done a better job actually.... they would known the intended targets and at the very least included a terrorist from both Afghanistan and Iraq..... and at least a couple from Iran. With-in 24 hours they had dirt on 19 guys that they knew absolutely nothing about before. My heads about to explode! We trained half these guys on American Military installations!!!!
They quashed every investigation into these people.... open your eyes.

You are being played like a fiddle with one string ......and it doesn't sound good.

the only people in trouble are those who have eyes but can not see

Sweet Gig!

You get Fridays off Ronnie?..... they figured you were'nt woth the overtime?

Bet you would get some sweet hours if you were any good.

Serious Questions? Nah!

Let me repeat that when REAL investigators undertook to find out who was responsible for the carnage of 9/11, nobody seriously considered the possibility that America-hating (or simply Government-hating) extemists would fabricate, without a shred of supporting evidence, a fantastic conspiracy theory to shift the blame away from the Islamic terrorists who actually perpetrated the crime. Using the evidence obtained from airport security cameras, from passenger manifests, from phone calls made by airline personnel, from DNA matches at the crash scenes, law enforcement agencies established quickly (although it required two months of re-checking and comparing notes with intelligence services of other nations to nail down the hijackers' identities definitively) whodunit.

The gigantic criminal conspiracy that runs everything is the product of a paranoid imagination. It does not exist in reality. You ask, rather naively, why your conspiracy is mathematically impossible. It's unfortunate that students are left ignorant of fundamental principles of statistics and probability. A little knowledge could put a quick end to these poisonous and insane conspiracy theories. Let's review:

An ordinary human has, let us assume, an even chance of keeping a secret. Three such humans will keep a shared secret only (.5 x .5 x .5 = .125) twelve-and- a-half percent of the time (remember Ben Franklin's remark that three men can keep a secret only if two of them are dead?). What does your conspiracy require? First, let's catalogue the members. Here's a PARTIAL list:

All the 200-plus researchers at NIST;
the researchers at FEMA;
the CIA;
the FBI;
NORAD;
the FAA;
the Boeing Corporation (they insist that their commercial airliners CANNOT be flown by remote control);
Air Traffic Controllers
the NYPD;
the FDNY;
all public officials, such as Mayor Giuliani;
the reporters and editors of major newspapers;
the independent academic researchers--physicists, metallurgists, molecular chemists;
structural engineers;
demolition experts;

The list can be extended, but we already have thousands of people.

Now, if we raise .5 to, say, the two-thousandth power, we discover that such a conspiracy would unravel with a probability of .999999999--just keep adding 9s.

But that won't do. We will pretend that everyone complicit in this heinous crime, mass murder, is a G. Gordon Liddy type. The probability THIS sort of character will keep a dark secret without ever cracking is not even-money, but NINETY percent. Next, we will reduce our list of thousands to ONE HUNDRED (I understand, that's half as many as the NIST researchers alone). Get out your calculator and raise .9 to the hundredth power.

Yup, that's right: this rather modest conspiracy will unravel 99.97% of the time. YOUR conspiracy, with far more members and a lower average probability of keeping the secret, will unravel, roughly, ALL THE TIME. Hence, the term, IMPOSSIBLY VAST CONSPIRACY.

You make statements that lead me to wonder if you are very young. Yes, the FBI is extremely skilled at DNA analysis. Their forensic techniques are, uh, the BEST IN THE WORLD. Somehow, you know what their limitations are, but you never reveal the source of your expertise with us. No, we didn't train half of those guys on military installations, but it IS shocking that hostile foreign nationals are able to obtain flight training here so easily.

You still have not explained why a conspiracy so vast, operating with limitless resources, failed to create a SINGLE Iraqi or Afghani hijacker. Don't worry, the problem is unsolvable. It reduces this conspiracy foolishness to rubble, but fantasists don't care about stuff like that.

You keep pretending that you are "letting examples fly," but you have no examples that lend credence to the tinfoil-hat nonsense. We've established that you have no interest in the reasons for the failure of our air-defense systems. The issue has been covered comprehensively in the 9/11 Commisssion Report, Kean and Hamilton's book, and in the relevant sections of 911myths.com. , but you refuse to come to terms with this material. And for an excellent reason: the facts are inconvenient to your politics.

You raise the issue of my expertise in physics purely to blow smoke. I didn't write the NIST report; I didn't write Dr. Greening's papers; I didn't write the Protec report; I didn't write Dr. Thomas Eagar's papers. You seem to be suggesting that I am not qualified to demonstrate the science behind the building collapses. Who said I was? There are hundreds of scientists, structural engineers, and other researchers who are extremely well-qualified to present the science, but, once again, you reject their conclsuions as inconvenient to your politics.

You present yourself as someone with genuine questions, but I fail to see where you have sought honest answers. Certainly you won't find them on fantasist sites.

Ronald,

"Apparently, two of them had box-cutters; the rest used knives."

Harhar, Mr. Wieck, you are a true conspiracy theorist. It takes quite something to believe all that and the DNA crap LOL
You say "apparently". Could you maybe explain how this "appeared" to you ??#
Oh, and whilest we're at it, we are still missing your rebutal of 911 press for truth.

I wanna hear about the magic

DNA. In particular, is it from the same "magic" source that produced the Dallas "magic" bullet?

Yes indeedy Wonnie...Box cutters

Or as those in the construction business refer to them box cutters as...utility knives. I'm still reiterating to the governments official story espoused by the Mainstream media, Wonnie...duh.
But You still have not responded to the...say it with Me Wonnie..Dietrich Snell involvement...AND the connection with the BOJINKA plot. BOJINKA, BOJINKA and Dietrich Snell. You know, the Senior Counsel on the 9/11 Commission? Dietrich Snell...One major playa who has to answer some questions about some very suspicious behavior.
And those you call "America hating simpletons" is not anyone here that I have even talked with or added to threads on. If your "vast superior skills" are so good, its amazing how far off the mark You are, Wonnie. In fact, if this is your collective assumption of Us all, you have zero skill in this area, period.
That can be proven, just ask anyone here if they hate America.
Dietrich Snell and project BOJINKA Wonnie...The NSA won't release the plans..so Dietrich won't have to answer any knowledge of the plans, but He would have to answer why He got some amnesia and details about how and why this was left out of the commission.

Hopeless

Let me guess: you're a JFK fantasist, too? Is there anything that you believe with all your heart and soul that is not emotion-based nonsense? Do you reject all facts?

Not getting personal in this thread

is impossible, so let's just get down with it. Right down to the ground, right now!

As an artist with refined aesthetic sensibilities, I don't reject anything except venal materialism, mindless head-banger, attitude-driven nihilism and full-blown zero-sum egoism; the latter being common to the architects of the New World Oligarchy, who clearly believe the privilege of their wealth entitles them, for no reason other than that, to author history, as they chose to do 09/11/01.

And though little do they know, ultimately history will revile them, while those among us with even minor bodies of serious artistic work, and consisting of perhaps only a few pieces sure to outlive us, will be fondly remembered, whereas most of their work will be run through a paper shredder within hours of their going stiff and cold.

And in the end, nobody of substance will ever in any way wish, with them, to be associated. And these are the people you seem to be compelled to so robustly defend — those who have so energetically concocted a tissue of lies, which they cannot, even with the weight of the entire manipulative mechanism of the most vast and all-encompassing media network of all time manage to sell to more than 16% of their audience.

And that, is the most prescient fact that you are so aggressively rejecting. So, very well! Go, be with them. You obviously envy them. Lick their boots. Carry water for them. Dote on their smarmy indulgences; suck up to them like there's no tomorrow, and remember: in their eyes you are nothing more than a pathetic, little, bleeding, philistine sod!

let me guess, you ignore all

let me guess, you ignore all evidence in the JFK case that shatters your simple, gullible little world view too? you respect authority fully and blindly huh ronny? we reject facts? no, we cant ignore any facts like yourself which is why we are here. you on the other hand are here because you have a sick and utterly pathetic obsession with us. time to grow up ronny.

Let's not forget

The original message posted here..... there is obviously an effort here to distract attention away from that message.... do they realize that the more they post under the message they wish to squash... the more it sits at the top of the list?

we are almost to 400!.... have we ever had a post this long?

Never thought this would need to go this far.... I'd like to thank Ronnie for all his blissful ignorance.

Conclusion to "Debate"

Like many people here, you have only the haziest concept of what a debate is. You imagine that I say something nasty, you scream some ad hominem attack, and I'm supposed to respond in kind. The reality is quite different.

I began this exercise by stating that the Fantasy movement, in five years of agitation, has failed to produce a shred of actual evidence supporting its outlandish claims. Four hundred posts later, I have not seen a shred of evidence from your side. YOU DON"T HAVE ANY. We get the idea.

A debate works thusly: I refer to a paper by Apathoid, an avionics tech, explaining in great detail why Boeing 757s and 767s cannot be flown by remote contol, or wire-to-wire. I refer to a paper by Gino Bernacchia, a pilot and flight instructor, who discusses the piloting skills of the hijackers, particularly those on Flight 77.

Now, your job is to show where these authorities are going wrong. As you reject their conclusions, you MUST feel that they are making errors. SHOW US THE ERRORS.

Refusing to read the papers doesn't refute their content. Pretending that Popular Mechanics magazine is somehow an organ of the government doesn't refute the content of the book published by several PM staffers. At some point, you must actually SAY SOMETHING. If everyone who presents evidence inconvenient to your politics is a liar or a "shill," you reinforce the prevailing view that you are empty-headed cranks fueled purely by hate.

I came here determined to smoke you people out. I have. YOU HAVE NOTHING TO SUPPORT YOUR FANTASIES.

Serious Questions?

I am reposting this reply, as the formatting problems here made it unreadable.

Let me repeat that when REAL investigators undertook to find out who was responsible for the carnage of 9/11, nobody seriously considered the possibility that America-hating (or simply Government-hating) extemists would fabricate, without a shred of supporting evidence, a fantastic conspiracy theory to shift the blame away from the Islamic terrorists who actually perpetrated the crime. Using the evidence obtained from airport security cameras, from passenger manifests, from phone calls made by airline personnel, from DNA matches at the crash scenes, law enforcement agencies established quickly (although it required two months of re-checking and comparing notes with intelligence services of other nations to nail down the hijackers' identities definitively) whodunit.

The gigantic criminal conspiracy that runs everything is the product of a paranoid imagination. It does not exist in reality. You ask, rather naively, why your conspiracy is mathematically impossible. It's unfortunate that students are left ignorant of fundamental principles of statistics and probability. A little knowledge could put a quick end to these poisonous and insane conspiracy theories. Let's review:

An ordinary human has, let us assume, an even chance of keeping a secret. Three such humans will keep a shared secret only (.5 x .5 x .5 = .125) twelve-and- a-half percent of the time (remember Ben Franklin's remark that three men can keep a secret only if two of them are dead?). What does your conspiracy require? First, let's catalogue the members. Here's a PARTIAL list:

All the 200-plus researchers at NIST;
the researchers at FEMA;
the CIA;
the FBI;
NORAD;
the FAA;
the Boeing Corporation (they insist that their commercial airliners CANNOT be flown by remote control);
Air Traffic Controllers
the NYPD;
the FDNY;
all public officials, such as Mayor Giuliani;
the reporters and editors of major newspapers;
the independent academic researchers--physicists, metallurgists, molecular chemists;
structural engineers;
demolition experts;

The list can be extended, but we already have thousands of people.

Now, if we raise .5 to, say, the two-thousandth power, we discover that such a conspiracy would unravel with a probability of .999999999--just keep adding 9s.

But that won't do. We will pretend that everyone complicit in this heinous crime, mass murder, is a G. Gordon Liddy type. The probability THIS sort of character will keep a dark secret without ever cracking is not even-money, but NINETY percent. Next, we will reduce our list of thousands to ONE HUNDRED (I understand, that's half as many as the NIST researchers alone). Get out your calculator and raise .9 to the hundredth power.

Yup, that's right: this rather modest conspiracy will unravel 99.97% of the time. YOUR conspiracy, with far more members and a lower average probability of keeping the secret, will unravel, roughly, ALL THE TIME. Hence, the term, IMPOSSIBLY VAST CONSPIRACY.

You make statements that lead me to wonder if you are very young. Yes, the FBI is extremely skilled at DNA analysis. Their forensic techniques are, uh, the BEST IN THE WORLD. Somehow, you know what their limitations are, but you never reveal the source of your expertise with us. No, we didn't train half of those guys on military installations, but it IS shocking that hostile foreign nationals are able to obtain flight training here so easily.

You still have not explained why a conspiracy so vast, operating with limitless resources, failed to create a SINGLE Iraqi or Afghani hijacker. Don't worry, the problem is unsolvable. It reduces this conspiracy foolishness to rubble, but fantasists don't care about stuff like that.

You keep pretending that you are "letting examples fly," but you have no examples that lend credence to the tinfoil-hat nonsense. We've established that you have no interest in the reasons for the failure of our air-defense systems. The issue has been covered comprehensively in the 9/11 Commisssion Report, Kean and Hamilton's book, and in the relevant sections of 911myths.com. , but you refuse to come to terms with this material. And for an excellent reason: the facts are inconvenient to your politics.

You raise the issue of my expertise in physics purely to blow smoke. I didn't write the NIST report; I didn't write Dr. Greening's papers; I didn't write the Protec report; I didn't write Dr. Thomas Eagar's papers. You seem to be suggesting that I am not qualified to demonstrate the science behind the building collapses. Who said I was? There are hundreds of scientists, structural engineers, and other researchers who are extremely well-qualified to present the science, but, once again, you reject their conclsuions as inconvenient to your politics.

You present yourself as someone with genuine questions, but I fail to see where you have sought honest answers. Certainly you won't find them on fantasist sites.

Submitted by Ronald Wieck on Fri, 01/05/2007 - 5:48pm.

Stats

What is the percentage of people who would keep a secret if it meant compromising their career, their reputation or their life and the life of their family?

Secrets are commonplace in everyday life.... divulging them may hurt someone or get you in trouble..... but when you know that revealing these secrets would have dear and dire consequences... it changes the game.

And do not forget that the people you are refering to are people that can not speak of their job to their friends or family.... ever! And the people near to them know this and wouldn't even ask them to divulge anything about their job. Don't tell...don't ask...don't tell.

there really were not that many fully in the know about this operation.... many were simply victims of circumstance... doing their jobs.

there were less than 100 in the know..... and probably less than 40 fully in the know while being on the inside.... with ten people as the major players..... and that doesn't include the President. I think he knew what was going down but he wasn't involved in the attack..... but he is heavily involved in the cover-up.

Every person in the CFR was aware of what was happening... but not necessarily involved..... easily complicit. There are thousands who probably have information that would be helpful to uncovering the plot... but they were not involved.

NIST and FEMA were simply doing their job of trying to explain to the best of their ability why those buildings fell..... from the visual evidence presented.... from plane to collapse..... and they suceeded in what they were paid to create... but they failed miserably in finding any truth. they both benefit greatly from their reports. Both are government agencies which rely heavily on government monies.

Demolition experts? I already explained this to you..... one of the only demolition companies which could have pulled this off was fully involved. There are very few other companies in the WORLD capable of this kind of demolition....and if the clean-up time is your argument.... swallow hard....because this was right in the heart of New York... probably the largest amount of debris ever seen..... not to mention that WTC 1 & 2 was full of human remains..... clean-up would take a substantially longer amount of time..... The New York traffic could have added 2 months to the efficiency of the clean-up alone! And the incredible mess left by the dust.... the attempt at the careful removal of the remains...... your time frame is incredibly skewed!

And after 9/11 the government could have done anything that they pleased and they did... they did not need to produce any Iraqis or Afghanis..... they had us angry... vindictive... and fearful... willing to bomb whomever our trusted officials told us was necessary to fix this.... they could have told us that Canada did this and we would have all started marching north.

They produced a group of Middle Eastern men... and if you knew anything about the average American mind... you would know that 50% of Americans couldn't even point out Iraq on a map.... they were all the same to them..."they were brown and different and we need to kill them for killing us"... vengence and fear do not lead to cognative thought.

Our entire Governmental system id built on secrets at this point... so don't act like you can't grasp how this all works.... loose lips sink ships.... and their boat was built with people who keep their ship afloat.... and everyone who had moved on up that ladder...knows that.

Where did you go to school Ronnie?

University of Chicago?..... are you a product of the Neo-Con Machine?

Please, Just Stop

You are either missing, or pretending to miss a fairly obvious point. If all these thousands of accomplices, whether willing or unwilling, to this unprecedented crime are being whipped into line, some sort of coercive muscle is doing it. What? Is there an unseen Gestapo organized and maintained by the Bush crime family? How big must this organization be for its tentacles to reach, well, everywhere? This secret police can intimidate Army and Air Force generals, some of whom are Democrats and oppose Bush''s policies? Who the hell are these people? Who are you kidding?

You are seriously pretending that a research scientist, a structural engineer, employed by NIST who happens to be a Democrat, gets physically threatened by operatives of the invisible army and ordered to massage his data? Okay, that's completely absurd, but we'll play along. Now, he and a couple of hundred of his colleagues publish TEN THOUSAND pages of graphs, photos, illustrations, tables, and analysis--and it's ALL TOTAL BULLSHIT! Years of work to fabricate complete nonsense. Now, NOT A SINGLE INDEPENDENT RESEARCHER notices this staggering deception. NOBODY in ANY related field comments, "Hey, there's something very wrong here."
Wait, I've got it--the invisible Gestapo manages to locate and intimidate EVERYONE except a few cranks, who, oddly enough, are permitted to continue publishing their quackery.

Perhaps you weren't listening. The Boeing Corporation states that it is impossible for 757s and 767s to be flown by remote control. Avionics techs like Apathoid write papers explaining exactly why it is impossible. They are ALL in the tank for the Vast Conspiracy? Um, where is the EVIDENCE that what they say is wrong? What avionics techs ANYWHERE disagree?

You didn't "explain" anything about demolition companies. I repeat, NO demolition experts believe that the collapses of the Twin Towers look anything like controlled demolition. It is the job of the tinfoil-hatters to show us the errors the experts are making. Yes, the invisible Gestapo has "gotten" to them: that's why they're making these erroneous statements. Now, WHO SAYS the statements are erroneous and why does he believe it? Where are the experts going wrong?

You attempt to peddle an absurd myth that NIST is beholden to a particular political party. It is not. NIST's job is to explain why buildings fall down. It succeeded admirably in explaining the collapses of the WTC. Again, the explanations are inconvenient to the politics of the fantasists, but they are sound nevertheless. No conspiracy liar has cast serious doubt on NIST's conclusions.

I return to my rather commonplace calculations: A conspiracy consisting of so many accomplices across such a wide range of specialties would unravel almost 100% of the time. Your tap dancing cannot disguise that indisputable fact. The scientist who contributes to a bogus report understands perfectly well that he is complicit in the crime being covered up. To argue that NO ONE would EVER crack under the weight of such crushing guilt is utterly preposterous. You couldn't conceivably hope to find so many people willing to participate in a heinous crime that brings absolutely no benefits to themselves.

10,000 pages

You just put a whole lot of words in my mouth again Ronnie.

I'll keep this short and sweeeeeeet!

There is only one reason anyone would publish anything over 10,000 pages..... So NOBODY would READ it!

How long is the Bible?... or the Koran?

Have you ever read the Bible in it's entirety?

Iused to read between 1,000 and 2,000 pages per week..... this report would have taken me 3 months to read.... and that would be without analyzing it thoroughly.... just to read it

FAQ

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

Would you read these few pages? No, I didn't think so.

Would you download a 300-page pdf file? Nope.

I trust I've made my point.

LOL

Rony goes statistics on his mission to defend a conspiracy theory. I'm just glad i don't have to do his job.

Detailed Refutation

Brilliant. I guess I must be wrong. Just remember, you must never, ever pay any attention to what I actually say. Failure to ignore a serious argument will get you booted out of the tinfoil-hat brigade.

well,

the thing is, im not really interested in conspiracy theories. And you seem to love to talk about them, in circles. It looks like we have different interests, Rony. So there really is no point in getting in a discussion with you. I'll wait for your rebutal of 911 Press for Truth. Maybe then we can have a serious discussion.
Any ideas when it will be ready for presentation?

Something New

Yes, I will comment on 911 Press for Truth when you show me ONE--uno--new claim advanced in this crockumentary. I am tired of wasting an hour or an hour-and-a-half on recycled crap that has been debunked a thousand times. I have been suckered down this route too often. Present one thing contained in this film that I haven't seen many times. No SIlverstein "pull it" bullshit, no compressed air falsely called "squibs"--something new.

Angel is next!

Who, other than anyone highly positioned in the US security network, could possibly have called in a threat to the POTUS using the code-of-the day for Air Force One?

Do You Really Want to Go There?

A threat from whom?

I thought the jihadists were imaginary. Yes, there was a welter of confusion and people were seeing threats everywhere. That certainly indicates they were shocked by events and didn't have a grip on the situation. It's not a flattering portrait, but it's real.

Why it's supposed to reveal the existence of a gigantic, mathematically-impossible conspiracy is anybody's guess.

Wrong — not impossible:

But, do I want to go there? Sounds ominous...but this isn't my idea. It's been out there for several years.

This is when, as Tarpley puts it, "the shadow government speaks — the heart of it..." And, fully documented — http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/11/60II/main521718.shtml — as MSM as it gets...but a thread noticably avoided int the MSM, only picked up in the 911Truth movement, in particular, by Webster G. Tarpley:

A/V
http://www.911busters.com/New_911_Evidence/WMV/Webster_Tarpley_NYC.wmv

audio only
http://www.911busters.com/New_911_Evidence/MP3/Webster_Tarpley_NYC.html

The other principal event of 09/11/01 is the call to Putin followed by deployment, almost immediately, of US Special Forces to occupay military bases in the former Soviets around the Caspian Sea, right on the boarder with Russia. http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jan2002/base-j11.shtml — barely made it to the MSM — literally incredible, if not for "...a gigantic, mathematically-impossible conspiracy..."

It's interesting to see how you address the 911 coup d'état: "...confusion...shocked...didn't have a grip...unflattering..."

Me thinks ye doth protest too much.

Words have Meanings

The best way to "address the 911 coup d'etat" is to point out a terribly inconvenient truth: There was no 911 coup d'etat. Sorry to disappoint, but nothing of the sort happened. It isn't even a partial truth. It's a flat-out falsehood, invented by loons.

Obviously, asking you for evidence would be a bad joke. If we stick to definitions, we can satisfy ourselves that the term "coup d'etat" has a meaning. America's response to the jihadist attacks cannot be construed coherently as a coup d'etat by anyone sane.

The "shadow government" is a figment of paranoid, overheated imaginations. There isn't a shred of evidence for its existence.

disapoint?

who'd expect anything else...evidence? The intentional destruction of 2.5 TB of Able Danger data is pretty solid evidence in support of its nefarious nature, and the damning nature of that evidence therein now destroyed, and supported as well by Rumsfeld's refusal to allow any Able Danger operatives to testify before Keane-Hamilton. Nobody imagined this. It's real. Look, all these guys were players under Nixon, Ford and Regan-Bush-41... Iran-Contra, et al, Mano Blanco, Negropente's crew...the same ol' ditry game...black-ops/psy-ops coming out their ears.

But back to the case at hand, you can't explain "Angel is next," coming in just before Air Force One took off from Sarasota with no fighter support for 45 min., with the nation "under attack." Security stripped, hung out as an easy target, Bush surrendered the nation. In Washington the 911 coup is an open secret. Now they're scrambling desperately to rein the madmen in without blowing the cover up, which, is likely part of your job.

Our job is to continue educating people about false flag terrorism and the overwhelming epidemic of black-ops/psy-ops. So long as this horribly, lethal and cynically distorting weapon can be used with impunity, there is no chance for peace. We must do all we can to end war of terror.

Yeah, we've all gotten pretty steamed in this thread, but hey, don't take it personally. We've all got our missions, but do remember: you're nothing to them. They use you like they use the hired help anywhere they go. To them we're all expendable, just like the useful fool, GW Bush, on 09/11/01.

You never know, you might have an epiphany. Look around the movement. Notice all the former analysts. At some point we really do all have to face the music.

Have Pity on the Audience

I know that it must be nearly impossible to concentrate with all that steam pouring out of your ears, but try real hard.

BUSH--remember him?--told CBS News that the threat "Angel is next" was phoned to him, presumably by Secret Service personnel. HE--we're still talking about BUSH--relayed the information to the pilot of Air Force One. The threat turned out to be one of many--hundreds, actually--false alarms.

Now, you are attempting a fantastic feat of legerdemain here. You want us to believe that the false threat is actually a huge clue to...to...something. But, the person who provided the clue is...BUSH!

We await your explanation of why the CBS reporter didn't inquire if the threat really showed, in some mysterious way discernible only people with extremely low IQs, that a gigantic, mathematically-impossible conspiracy had just orchestrated attacks on American financial and military institutions in order to start a war with Afghanistan.

Don't get me wrong: the whole thing makes perfect sense. Really. No kidding.

audience?

the real reason your here? — since we're all under pseudonyms, what fun is that?

But, back to the mission: even William Saffire reported that "Angel is next" is the wording in which the threat was called in...actually you're begging the question, mon petit feu — no fighter support for over 1 hour — POTUS hung out security stripped, surrendered the nation — mission accomplished.

This following hasn't been

This following hasn't been discussed at JREF, or anywhere else. Can you post link to its refutation?

Watch the video of Tower 2's collapse, found here:

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-736262871641918799&q=collapse+wt...

If one looks at that video in slo-mo, the explosive behavior of the section immediately below the falling upper section is COMPLETELY incompatible with where the upper section is impacting it.

Watch the video closely, paying special attention to the perfect horizontal symmetry with which the lower section blows directly (horizontally) outward, even though the upper section is rotating INWARD away from the lower section perimeter walls. Yet another dead give away that it is not the upper section impacting the lower section that is blowing the building up, but rather some kind of demolition charges blowing each floor straight outward. THUS, WE HAVE MORE ROCK-SOLID PROOF THAT THIS WASN'T A GRAVITY_DRIVEN COLLAPSE.

Note further, starting at around the 4-5 second mark of the video, the upper section has half disappeared, seemingly inside the lower section, and yet the symmetrical, outward explosion of each floor continues unabated in exactly the same fashion regardless of the fact that the angle of the upper section precludes such horizontal destruction. As the lower edge of the upper section's perimeter columns impact the floors well inside and away from the lower section's perimeter walls, the floor trusses' destruction should pull the lower section's perimeter walls INWARD, but instead, the trusses defy the laws of physics and their ends explode straight outwards. Given that the upper section's perimeter wall is impacting the floors below WELL inside the building, EXACTLY what physical mechanism is causing this straight-out explosion of each floor? Only explosives of some kind can explain it. YET MORE EVIDENCE OF CONTROLLED DEMOLITION.

Another odd aspect of the neat and tidy horizontal explosion of each floor is that the explosions DO NOT extend all the way to the corners of the building. Rather, the corners remain completely unaffected by the collapse of the upper section up until the point where the billowing dust obscures them. EXACTLY what physical mechanism can account for this? Only explosives of some kind can explain it. EVEN MORE EVIDENCE OF CONTROLLED DEMOLITION.

The following hasn't been

The following hasn't been discussed at JREF, or anywhere else. Can you post link to its refutation?

Watch this animation of WTC 7's construction:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-yuQeeYkq8

Note the large number of floor trusses connecting the inner vertical columns to the outer vertical columns. Now observe in the videos found here:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7.html

that the "penthouse" collapses first, and that we see no indication of the floor trusses "pulling" the outside walls inward. If the floor trusses were still connected to the outer wall's steel columns (and there's no reason they wouldn't be, without the help of demolition charges of some kind), the collapsing penthouse would result in the floor trusses "pulling inward" on the outside columns. They did not, and the only way to explain this is that the floor trusses were "pre-disconnected" from the outside columns by some external force (again, demolition charges of some kind).

Brilliant Analysis

You are a complete ignoramus, Mel. Try taking this crap to JREF. Tell them that you are contending that the Impossibly Vast Conspiracy just happened to plant charges at precisely the floors impacted by the planes. You'll show those guys a thing or two!

plane?

that animation is about WTC7 — never hit by a plane — the "thing or two" this shows about Mr. Wieck is that his disinfo. bombing campaign is utterly random — he rants about not getting an honest debate here — BS, his intention is only to disrupt and provoke — isn't his time up yet?

The following hasn't been

The following hasn't been discussed at JREF, or anywhere else. Can you post link to its refutation?

Watch the videos of WTC 7's collapse here:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7.html

Note in all of the videos that none of the visible walls exhibit ANY trauma as they collapse smoothly and evenly into the ground. The outer walls behave as if the steel columns immediately behind them are completely without substance, a FACT that is only explainable by CD. The steel columns do not buckle, bend, jolt, jar, or otherwise stutter on their way down. Nor does the outside facade of each wall show any appreciable indication that the bottom edge of each wall is "hammering" itself into the ground. The energy imparted into each steel column as it hits the ground translates into absolutely NOTHING visible on the wall facings. The only way this observation can be explained is that the steel columns were weakened, either before or during the collapse, by some yet-to-be-determined man-made mechanism, thus allowing for the entire wall's curtain-like, virtually free-fall drop.

Rony,

"Yes, I will comment on 911 Press for Truth when you show me ONE--uno--new claim advanced in this crockumentary. I am tired of wasting an hour or an hour-and-a-half on recycled crap that has been debunked a thousand times."

Yea Rony, thats why youre hangning out here so often isnt it.
Well, if you had seen the docu, you'd know that it does neither talk about squibs nor any of your favourite subjects. Mabye you could start with Randy Glass. Never heard of? ah well, maybe watch the film.
And your fear of 'wasting hours debunking the same thing again': Rony, sorry, we all know that is exactly what you like to do. Talk about your most comfortable subject (ie, loose change type things) and ignore the others.
Youre words don't add up. Nor does the way you act.
Its time to leave Rony.

The Bet has been Called

It's long past time for you frauds to actually learn something. I'm thoroughly fed up with the paranoid ravings of ignorant fantasists.

Show me some errors in what the real scientists, engineers, and demolition experts have written. Until your mindless movement produces its first shred of actual evidence, I will continue to dismiss all tinfoil-hatters as fools.

Oh, Ronnie! Pay no

Oh, Ronnie! Pay no attention to em7 and their ridiculous obsession with "911 Press for Truth"! I know you're too much a gentleman to attack grieving widows no matter how misguided.

Come over to my blog instead:

http://www.911blogger.com/node/5427

I think you'll like it! It's high time 911Blogger offers a skeptic's view, don't you think? Plus, you'll easily qualify for the upcoming Hardfire Poetry Contest! *WINK*

Hugs and Kisses!

Once again Ronnie you fail to talk BOJINKA

Say it with Me Ronnie....Dietrich Snell, Dietrich Snell, Senior Counsel of the 9/11 Commission and Project Bojinka. A complicity and SMOKING GUN in this sordid affair.
You are just plain 'ol COINTEL since you fail to address the governments complicity and this is the blueprint for 9/11 that was sent to DIETRICH SNELL in 1995. But did Keane-Hamilton address this? In a honest manner?
Frankly, I have E-mails sent to Me from the Deputy Ambassador For Security who was working in the Phillippines at the time the Bojinka plot was discovered. It was his duty to send it to the office in the U.S.. The person in charge at that time was DIETRICH SNELL. But I would rather reveal the rest of this knowledge to an actual independant prosecuter, instead of COINTEL people, such as yourself, just so that you won't come back later to throw more diluted BS in with it to try to misinform or mislead with.
DIETRIC SNELL, PROJECT BOJINKA.

Diagnosis

You're nuts.

Diagnosis...Your not qualified

To make that assesment, Ronnie. Since you are not a Psychiatrist, how would you know? It's obvious you will not deal with the Bojinka plot. Well, Ok. that will come out later when the re-investigation begins.

Another Dilemma to be Ignored

I'm afraid we've all heard about Randy Glass. It's strange that a conspiracy liar would dare to bring him up. He did, or so we are assured by Alex Jones, attempt to warn of an impending attack on the World Trade Center. The World Trade Center, of course, was widely understood to be the Number One terrorist target. There were THOUSANDS of warnings concerning the WTC.

Now, conspiracy liars believe that the jihadists aren't real. We always attack ourselves. So, one must conclude that Randy Glass's warning could not have been real, right? RIGHT?!

patsies, moles, executioners and a compliant media

that's how it's done and you know it. The formulae for these operations have been around for some time. It's laid out very clearly in Tarpley's "911 Synthetic Terror - Made in USA." Of course you know it.

Laugh at Northwoods all you want, it was a real plan and you know it. Army General Lyman Lemnitzer, who lead the design team should have been hung. The fools demoted him and sent him over to a posting with NATO where he helped run the Gladio stay-behind networks, employing the same formulae to create a campaign of terror in Italy, Germany and France, tagged to the Red Brigade and Beider Manhoff — exactly the role al Queda plays now, and you know it.

UK brigadier Frank Kitson seems to be the ultimate authority on modern War of Terror, with his long list of treatises: LOW INTENSITY OPERATIONS (Harrisburg PA: Stackpole Books, 1971), GANGS AND COUNTERGANGS (Barrie and Rockliff, 1960), BUNCH OF FIVE (Faber, 1977), WARFARE AS A WHOLE (Faber, 1987), DIRECTING OPERATIONS (Faber, 1989).

You know it's pretty damned obvious Wieck that your mission here is to obfiscate any and all of this by fussing and cussing and lambasting to no end over controlled demolition and technical minutia. What you cannot address at all is "Angel is next" — the threat, the security stripping, the call to Putin and the rush to Offut — all on record and all pointing conclusively to a rogue network coup d'état. You can challenge the analysis, that's your opinion, indeed your mission, but you can't deny the facts nor obfuscate them. In fact, your mission has failed. Call your handler for your next assignment.