We are really making more or less the same point.
How about putting it this way, "Due to the political and career considerations that govern the actions of most prosecutors, we do NOT have evidence strong enough to lead any prosecutor to take the case to court."
We don't and they won't. Let's just face that fact.
Also, it is very unlikely that any new physical evidence is going to be found for reasons stated above.
That leaves our best option as testimony given under oath, and that means a new Congessional investigation.
I hope and pray that some prosecutor will try this case and I hope and pray that a really good deep-throat steps forward. But I cannot do much to make either of those things happen. And we can't just wait around.
A movement needs a clear goal supported by a clear and rational argument.
If anyone has a better argument and goal than a new investigation, I would like to know what it is.

(Might be good if someone with a lot of money offered a huge reward for info leading to the conviction.... That might also work.)

have tons of evidence demonstrating the inside job memorialized on video for all of eternity to see!

BINGO!
_______________________
"Cogito ergo sum"

Colombo, I am well aware of the evidence.
But, what are you going to accomplish with it?
As said, no prosecutor is going to take it to court.
If one does, I will be overjoyed, but until that happens, we need focus and clarity.
We need to think strategically, not just tactically.
If we have no generally accepted goal, we will not be effective.
The most reasonable argument we now have is that the official story is not supported by the evidence. This is the next logical step and the next step in the scientific method.
When people argue/discuss 9/11, this step should be uppermost in their mind. Since the official theory is wrong, we need to look for a new one. And that means a new investigation.
The videos and photos and eye-witness accounts indicate that something other than the official story happened, but they do not prove who did it or how.
Only testimony under oath will give us that evidence.
Where are you going to get that testimony?
And if you believe it is not needed, what are you planning to do with what we have now?
My suggestions are practical and strategic. What do you propose?

I disagree with #2, #3, #4 & #5; so I didn't bother to read Part Two.
_______________________
"Cogito ergo sum"

I think we probably have enough evidence to bring before a Grand Jury, but not to take to court.

And most prosecutions are either a little or a lot politically motivated. 9/11 would be almost 100% politically motivated.

"Fictional TV Court Shows" are not even close to real life court.

Something like this can really only be done as a Congressional Investigation with a Special Prosecutor.

The 9/11 Commission was not a Congressional Investigation. (purposely, imo)

I don't think Bush and the current Congress are going to allow a Congressional Investigation with a Special Prosecutor.

I think the 9/11 Truth and Justice Movement does have a fairly clear goal — a new investigation into 9/11. Almost everyone I talk to says that is the goal. (there are some who say otherwise, but I think they are in the minority)

The only thing that will coalesce the movement and make it more organized is time.

I don't think Alvin R has his fingers on the pulse of the movement.

We need the people behind us, and we need the media behind us. Without those, nothing is going to happen.

----
Senior 9/11 Bureau Chief, Analyst, Correspondent

http://www.chico911truth.org/

9/11 — GET rEVENge! (in a peaceful manner, of course)

"The only thing that will coalesce the movement and make it more organized is time."

Thought will also do that.

Thought, focus, and clear, practical goals. That is the essence of all successful politics.

You make a good point, but where is the bottoms-up groundswell going to go?
It will go back into the political process and result in a new investigation.
Let's synthesize our points: we need a groundswell that leads to a real investigation of 9/11 and that is so strong the new investigation cannot become a second cover-up.
It can be done. And it is the only way to get anything done.
We need to have urgency and that comes from focus and having a clear goal.

needs to arise from a sound understanding of what happened.

I think moodforaday is right. Congress won't investigate and prosecutors won't prosecute until it is in their political interest, so it has to come from the people.

The 9/11 Commission was NOT a Congressional Investigation with a Special Prosecutor, and that is the type of new, real investigation we need.

----
Senior 9/11 Bureau Chief, Analyst, Correspondent

http://www.chico911truth.org/

9/11 — GET rEVENge! (in a peaceful manner, of course)

That looks right. Congressional investigations seem to be, mostly, theater. On the other hand, Special Prosecutors do sometimes come up with real results.

Getting to the Special Prosecutor stage, and having a valid person assigned to the Prosecutor role, looks almost impossible to me, in this case.

But I do say "almost."

International would be good, but the problem would be that it would not have the legal authority to require the right people to testify under oath.
It must be realized that we have solid evidence that the official story is wrong, but we do not have solid evidence about who did it or how they did it.
That evidence may come from a deep-throat, but it is more likely that it will come from testimony taken under oath.
It is very unlikely that any prosecutor in the US will take this case to court.
So that leaves a new Congressional investigation.
That is the right strategic goal, and I have not seen one word in this post or elsewhere that refutes this claim.
Why not face it?
That's where we are and that is what we can do now.
If someone has a better practical/strategic proposal, please say what it is.

An international investigation would be good, but impossible. I guess everyone here knows this.

War crimes trials against Nazi German leaders occurred only after defeat. Same with Slobovan Milosevic recently. And this was also true for the sham trial of Saddam Hussein even more recently. The US government is not likely to be defeated any time soon.

The UN Security Council operates under US joint control, as we all know. Decisions are made jointly by the five permanent members of that council. The US will not relinquish its part in the control over it.

Thus, it seems naive to expect or hope for international legal action in this case, with current US leaders or operatives as prime suspects. They knew this prior to committing these crimes -- whoever did it. That is why, I suppose, so much of it was simply out there, done right in the open and plain for any discerning person to see. It makes for better terror effect that way.

Mssr. Joet says, "It seems to me that one goal virtually everyone in the 9/11truth movement supports is the initiation of a thorough, independent, legal, forensic and criminal investigation."

It is satisfying even to read those wonderfully clear words.

Yes, lets keep seeking a real investigation. It also seems smart to keep looking for ways to convince more people about what happened. I also hope that people continue seeking new sources of proof about what happened. More will probably show up, as time goes by.

Those are three goals, and not just one. I don't think we have the luxury of going for one goal only. What if it fails entirely? And it may -- especially when that goal depends on the goodwill, or at least acquiecence, of people currently in power, who stand to be regarded as prime suspects.

but also unnecessary. I think the American PEOPLE, not the government, will have to demand this investigation and demand results and transparency. can we later on hand over certain americans to the international criminal court? i think we should, to send a message that yes, we are responsible members of the world community and not hypocrites. Will some people more naturaly be tried for crimes committed in the US against americans? Yes. Some will actually be americans and some may have to be extradited from a foreign country. Maybe even from Paksitan, we'll see... ;)

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♠

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force

There are strong grounds for an international investigation of 9-11, the illegal US invasion of Afghanistan. Since the US used 9-11 to justify the invasion, theoretically someone can make the case that the World Court , UN or some other international body should investigate the allegation that Osama Bin Laden/Al Quaeda carried out 9-11 and that there was no recourse to bring him to justice except through the invasion. In the course of the investigation it would be very apt to study how 9-11 was carried out to identify the real perpetrators.

Just think about it, it is actually easy to prove OBL or Al Quaeda did not carry out the attacks on their own since WTC7 was demolished by pre-planted explosives which could only have been placed with implicit cooperation by the US authorities. This would prove the US guilty of an illegal invasion of Afghanistan. More importantly, this would put in glaring light that the actual perpetrators are still at large, need to be identified and prosecuted.

An international investigation with support by foreign governments could provide the level of witness protection that will allow whistle blowers to come out and testify safely, something that a citizen's court and perhaps even a Congressional investigation in the US is not capable of.

The only question is which international body is capable of carrying out the investigation fairly and insulated from influence by the very same perpetrators of 9-11. The UN is dominated by the US and it's close allies so I doubt it would be the right forum, but perhaps another international group would do.

It is interesting.

This 911 issue brings up an evident need for a world-wide legal system, which at present does not exist.

No matter what international body decided to try doing this, it is hard to imagine the jurisdiction issues involved. Would they sopoena people or what? Who would arrange for transportation and so on? And if someone failed to honor the sopoena, what then?

In this country the cops go after someone doing that. What cops, in this international case?

I am not criticizing the idea. I like the idea. But it does seem that we are far from this sort of international thinking, at present. It might ve decades off, or maybe never. Can you imagine it?

Don't let some of the folks on this site hear you say that! :)

In fact we have the international crimnal court. Problem is, the US refuses to recognize its jurisdiction unless it's enemies of the US who are being tried.

I'm afraid I must side with the anti-globalists on this point, though. We have the right and in fact the responsibility as citizens of a sovereign nation to hold our own leaders to account. If we are unable to, does it mean that we want to be invaded and liverated? Isn't that what would happen if the government refused to turn over Cheney, Rumsfeld, Feith, and Bush?

Perhaps it would be better if the world responded to Americans' failure to hold its government to account through boycotts and sanctions. We often point out that Americans are unlikely to do anything about the situation until they feel pain. Perhaps the rest of the world could stand up to our corrupt regime so that Americans would become angered enough to take more serious (legal) action against their ineffective and corrupt leaders.

It should be born in mind also that Americans were the victims of 9/11, and some of the perpetrators are likely to have been foreign. I am not suggesting, of course, that our treatment of the ACTUAL foreign perpetrators be similar to our treatment of the FICTIONAL foreign perpetrators, since I opposed the lattter I do of course oppose the former. We cannot, however, put our welfare as citizens of the US in the hands of a foreign body that could very well choose to punish America for Bush's crimes by withholding justice from us for the crimes commited against us by our treasonous leaders and their foreign allies.

The existing authorities in the world, both in the US and pan-globally, have failed. They have failed because they are corrupt. We must not depend on them or in any way validate their existence, but instead work from the bottom up, in concert with responsible citizens of all other nations, including any whose leaders may have participated in the 9/11 plot, to achieve, for once, real justice on behalf of real people. It is this process that will give rise to a popular global movement to effect the changes necessary to create the kind of global governance that is truly needed. One that rspects national sovereignty, does not enable economic exploitation, one that is thoroughly decentralized, and one that is not designed to serve the global elite but to serve instead the common interests of the world's common people--of which I am proud to consider myself one.

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♠

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force

RT, your posts are getting better over time. And the first ones were pretty good, too. So, no complaints implied. Or at least, no major complaints.

You say, "We must not depend on [The existing authorities] or in any way validate their existence, but instead work from the bottom up..."

Surely this is right.

And "a popular global movement... that is thoroughly decentralized..."

Yep. I see no other way out. Plus, this vision attracts me. Others too I imagine; many others.

It would probably attract us even without the atrocious antics, from government on high, that we face these days.

I really appreciate the kind words. I also appreciate the fact that while I know we disagree on a few things that you make suçh an effort to find common ground--being patient and tolerant of those who don't share our views is something that not all of us are that good at and it's important that we never lose the ability to communicate effectively no matter how much we may disagree on. In fact it is the fact that there are so many who are willing to talk through the most potentially divisive of issues that gives me so much hope for our success not only in establishing the truth about 9/11 but also about putting 9/11 behind us once we do, and moving forward, together I hope, in an effort to fix everything that was wrong before 9/11. If 9/11 seemed to kill every hope and dream I had about our potential to solve the world's problems, the 9/11 truth movement has revived and invigorated them again. At this point I feel like even if I don't live to see those dreams realized I can still die full of hope for those I would be leaving behind to carry on the struggle. We're all in this together and we do not win unless we ALL win. The only victory that matters is one that will unite all the world's people under a renewed sense (or perhaps a brand new sense) of togetherness, compassion, and love! Don't doubt for a moment that that's what RT wants more than anything.

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♠

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force

"If 9/11 seemed to kill every hope and dream I had about our potential to solve the world's problems, the 9/11 truth movement has revived and invigorated them again."

Same here.

As for disagreements, we are all here for the same reason. I sort of like the challenge anyway, of people disagreeing with me. In fact, I even liked having ref here -- remember him? -- before he got banned. He made me try very hard, and think things over very carefully. You do that too, friend. But your purpose matches mine, unlike ref's as far as I can tell. But that's a different topic.

Keep up the good posts.

9-11 was an international conspiracy, besides the subsequent invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, a lot of circumstantial evidence points to the involvement of Israeli agents which of course implicates the Israeli government.

I would dare say the London tubeway bombings were part of the conspiracy as well, and that this involved agents of the UK government. Heck they covered up the investigations just like your 9-11 Commission did.

Maybe this can be investigated and tried as crimes to humanity under the World Court. Now if only the World Court could be trusted.

If this international investigation ever comes to be, the truth movement should extend to other countries in order to keep watch on the investigators.