What Would it Take?


Just hypothetically, what would it take to convince you that 9/11 was an inside job? I'm not talking real-world here. Just as an exercise.

Is there any proof, any piece of evidence, any confession -- no matter how far-fetched or impossible -- which could, just hypothetically, convince you?


You might say "sure . . . confession by a high-level insider". If such a confession is the only thing which would convince you, think about this for a second: If you helped to kill 3,000 of your own people, would you admit it?

Probably not.

That's why most criminal convictions take place in spite of the fact that the defendant adamantly denies that he committed the crime. But there's enough evidence from other witnesses or the crime scene that the judge or jury finds him guilty. Or maybe there is such strong evidence that the defendant had the motive to commit the crime -- because he would benefit handsomely from it -- that he's convicted.

You might say that 9/11 is different. If there was a conspiracy that big, someone would have spilled the beans by now. Right?

But -- hear me out -- that's not necessarily true. If, hypothetically, of course, 9/11 was an inside job, then it was probably carried out by a group of very disciplined military type folks who know how to carry out an operation and keep their mouths shut. Moreover, these folks would be used to learning information stricly on a need-to-know basis. In other words, they wouldn't even know that they were helping to carry out 9/11; they would just know their one little part of it.

Moreover, a very small group of people could have carried out 9/11.

And when you think of confessions, you're thinking of small-time criminals. High-level criminals like mob bosses don't go around blabbing to outsiders. And the Nazi leaders didn't really confess their crimes (some did at the Nurenberg trials, but not before).

In any event, many witnesses who are high-level officials, and firefighters, police and FBI have come forward to testify against the U.S. government's version of 9/11.

So -- if there are other types of evidence -- can you at least consider the possibility that 9/11 might, just possibly, be an inside job even if none of the actual perpetrators have yet confessed?


Of course, it's IMPOSSIBLE that anyone in our government would do something as horrible as 9/11. We know that because we know that we're the good guys, and that our government tries its hardest to protect us. Right?

Its like a defendant falsely accused of a crime. The jury should find him innocent, because he's a good guy, and his life, his actions have been those of a basically decent guy. It would be very different if the defendant had previously been found guilty of similar crimes. Obviously, in that case, it would be more likely that the defendant did it this time, too. Right?

A good example is Muslim countries and other rotten nations who have terrorized their own people for political gain. If the leaders of one of those countries was accused of a terrorist act, we'd think its possible they did it again. Right?

Well, here's the thing. American political leaders have occassionally exaggerated military intelligence for political gain.

And, our leaders have in fact sometimes used terrorism in the past.

So we can't assume, without looking at the facts of 9/11, that this is not the kind of thing that our leaders would do.

What would it Really Take?

So what would it really take for you to believe 9/11 was an inside job? Disproof of the official story? Okay, here it is.

Proof that the government knew about the pending attacks, but did nothing? Read this and this.

Scientific experts saying it? See this.

Or . . .

Or do you just NOT want to believe it? That's okay. Admit it.

Then when you are ready, take a look at the evidence . . .

Start by actually reading the information contained at the links.

Just finished this, even though

the first draft was started in July.


Hmmm... this line of questioning looks familiar! :)

I've been asking this question for a long time. Most don't want to answer, or they do give absurd conditions. When you turn the tables and say "then prove it was Osama to the same standards you impose upon me" and they run away.

It goes like that


Jon Gold gets his ass handed to him again


Nice letter......it would sure be nice to have a BIG LINK on the top of this site that says this FIRST TIMERS or NOOBS ONLY Click here. Some place where it throws it right in your face in a nice way!!

Good Job

Anti-Semitism office planned at State Department


If you want to know who is in command, just ask who it is you can't criticize.

This was announced....

.....in Oct. of 2004......

Government documents

Government documents detailing and authorizing the operation. And none
of that forged garbage from Dan Rather, either.

A demonstration of thermite demolition technology. Show us us a thermite
demolition of a major structure. Also show us how to make a thermite
sprayer that can shoot thermite horizontally, cutting through vertical beams.

Interviews with the ~50,000 WTC 1,2 and 7 survivors. With that many people
it's inevitable that somebody saw something.

It would have taken something on the order of 4,000 to 6,000 men to set up
the WTC towers for demolition. If 99% of them keep thier mouths shut, then
that leaves 40 to 60 of them willing to spill the beans. So yeah, 40 or more
members of the WTC demolition team speaking out would also be required.

The Current membership of the American Society of Civil Engineers stands
at roughly 125,000. I won't ask you for all of them, but certainly enough to cause
major controversy within the Society will be enough. 30% would do it. If the
science behind 9-11 conspiracism os so sound, so unassailable, gathering
up 37,500 engineers to support your cause should be EASY.

As a canadian, I'd also like to see a reasonable explanation as to how NORADs
complicity was attained without alerting the canadian deputy commander of NORAD
or any of his staff. There is simply no way, that Royal Canadian Armed Forces
personnel would help murder thier countrymen (25 Canadians died on 9-11) and
help cover it up afterward just to make a bunch of rich americans even richer.

reply to mormanjihad

The only thing we need to know is that the way buildings 1,2 and 7 came down are only explainable by controlled demolition. You can't violate the laws of physics. We don't have to come up with the answers to your idiot questions. I haven't heard any plausible explaination from your side of why the building collasped . Would you care to give one?

First, as I said above; if

First, as I said above; if the science of the collapses is so indisputable, then getting
37,000 civil engineers (a mere 30% of the ASCE membership) to sign off on controlled
demo should be easy.

Second, yes... you do have to come up with the answers. You are accusing thousands
of people of capital crimes. Under the criminal justice system of both our countries, the
burden of proof is on the accuser.

Third, a plausible explanation is easy. 19 jew-hating fascists looking to get laid stole
some airplanes and smashed them into some high end real estate. Structural damage
from the impacts combined with weakening of structural elements due to heat from the
resultant fires resulted in a catastrophic collapse.

Fourth, there are no "A"s in "Mormon.


As others have pointed out here in the past, you are confusing "quantity" with scientific "quality". There was a time in the not so distant past that prevailing wisdom was that the world was flat. The truth ultimately becomes widely accepted, as will be the case with controlled demolition of the twin towers.

Sixth, you could not be more correct that the burden of proof is on the accuser. Assuming this to be true, there should be no reason Osama is not in our custody today, as the Taliban leadership, in an open press conference, offered to turn him over to the U.S. if the U.S. would provide proof that he was behind it. If we had a truly independent investigation into the attacks on 9/11 with full subpoena power, there is little doubt that the evidence would all point in one direction, and we would be able to satisfy our burden of proof. The limiting factor for the alternative theories thus far has been little or no access to the relevant proof.

What would it take...

In refrence to "MormonJahid,"

Several people in Hollywood have come forward to simply express their doubts about the official line. In every case, they did this at extreme peril to their careers. Sheen, (obviously worth several times the average actor's net worth,) gladly came out to say; I don't see this adding up, -do you? For this, he will suffer a 70% loss of potential acting income over 10 years, -minimum!

Now, take your average consulting engineer, barely able to afford his child support in St. Louis. Not only has he nothing invested of worth, no direct connection to these events, but he also has no reason to rock the boat in a non-glorified professional capacity. He's much better off divesting theories about the motor-mechnanics of alien craft! This at least has some professional merits. So, your suggested point has no merit here, as this was spelled out by 'Pup,' back in 2002.

Next, it occurs that your points are fully directed at questioning the bulk of the logic available here. Please do explain yourself, because you've offered nothing from the heart, making you appear to be an extremely 'disloyal' Mormon. I don't bash Jews, or gays, but I vehemently object to your claim to have been Steven's former gay lover. Please explain.

Charlie Sheen

Sheen, (obviously worth several times the average actor's net worth,) gladly came out to say; I don't see this adding up, -do you? For this, he will suffer a 70% loss of potential acting income over 10 years, -minimum!

ROTFLMAO You are joking, right? Sometimes it is hard to tell with you guys.

September 28, 2006 6:55 a.m. EST

Nidhi Sharma - All Headline News Staff Writer
Los Angeles (AHN) - After two months of negotiations, actor Charlie Sheen is set to finalize a new salary deal that would make him the highest-paid comedy star in television today with a salary expected at about $350,000 per episode this season.

Reuters said that Sheen was offered the hefty salary package from Warner Bros., the producer of the CBS powerhouse comedy he stars in. The "Two and a Half Men" star is also expected to have a major profit-participation stake in the series, now in its fourth season.


Yeah, he is just suffering. Maybe we could start a telethon? Save Charlie!

donation money?

i wonder if charlie would consider donating an episode's worth of money... maybe to buy a full page add in the New York Times... i wonder how much that costs? it would be cool cause we'd get the truth in the "paper of record" even if we have to pay for it

- visit http://truth911.net to learn the truth about September 11th, 2001

Your post is hysterical,

Your post is hysterical, Tom.

I would suggest that your time is better spent by searching for
the engineers with training and experience in the appropriate
fields that I asked for.

Rock on Charlie!

I never watch Network TV, so I wouldn't typically know about entertainment-fluff, but this is great news. I guess you might say there is evidently power in speaking truth to authority! I don't even know their time-slots, but 'Seinfield' (sp?) did quite well too, ($14.M per season) so I guess one might also wish to evaluate the revenue-window and the producer's skills, before judging these figures. The last show I actually watched was "Dallas." The last film, "Terms of Endearment." - so go figure!

But there is a tiny problem with your logic, which is that TV serial actors don't earn the same respect as Movie-stars. You will notice that Meg Ryan doesn't do TV, just to name someone I know well, someone who can't possibly afford to rock the boat, not with so many poor prior films and bad personal decisions behind her.

Hollywood will exploit what works, so the jury is still out on Charlie's near-term 'movie' offers.

According to A. Jones, the faux-conservatives are currently loosing market-share, as should all the Major studios. I simply can't be 'entertained' by Mafia-rock, or heretics and traitors.

MormonJihad, You have


You have wrongly assumed many things about the government's scientific case for the collapse of the towers. The government itself does not claim to have a definitive explanation:

"With the information and time available, the sequence of events leading to the collapse each tower could not be definitively determined." – FEMA BEPAT, Executive Summary, p.2

Or your ridiculous fire theory:

"All four test specimens sustained the maximum design load for approximately 2 hours without collapsing…" – NIST, p. 143

Or the idea that the towers were like swaying blades of grass waiting to fall:

"The results established that this type of assembly was capable of sustaining a large gravity load, without collapsing, for a substantial period of time relative to the duration of the fires in any given location on September 11." – NIST, p. 143

I direct you to a recent blog post of mine for several other statements made by the government's own scientists that do NOT endorse the theory you think they endorse.


You complain that we don't have an explanation for the collapse of the towers, but it is you who do not have an explanation.

I got my info from real

I got my info from real engineers and firefighters, buddy.

I have wrongly assumed nothing.

"NIST conducted an extremely thorough three-year investigation into what caused the WTC towers to collapse, as explained in NIST’s dedicated Web site, http://wtc.nist.gov. This included consideration of a number of hypotheses for the collapses of the towers.

Some 200 technical experts—including about 85 career NIST experts and 125 leading experts from the private sector and academia—reviewed tens of thousands of documents, interviewed more than 1,000 people, reviewed 7,000 segments of video footage and 7,000 photographs, analyzed 236 pieces of steel from the wreckage, performed laboratory tests and sophisticated computer simulations of the sequence of events that occurred from the moment the aircraft struck the towers until they began to collapse.

Based on this comprehensive investigation, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires (which reached temperatures as high as 1,000 degrees Celsius) significantly weakened the floors and columns with dislodged fireproofing to the point where floors sagged and pulled inward on the perimeter columns. This led to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns and failure of the south face of WTC 1 and the east face of WTC 2, initiating the collapse of each of the towers. Both photographic and video evidence—as well as accounts from the New York Police Department aviation unit during a half-hour period prior to collapse—support this sequence for each tower."


Buddy boy, Jihad

Why don't you answer one question: What is your reason for not investigating the mass murder of 3000 US citizens? If you don't have a legitimate reason, buddy boy, why don't step aside, we are involved in serious matters. This is not the time or place for self indulgence conversations with yourself. Why don't you just take the time to review your Bible and the Ten Commandments and try to live a Christian life according to those rules: Thous shall not kill, is one of them; thou shall not covet thy neighbors oil is another.

Actually, I read the

Actually, I read the scriptures regularly. Both the Bible and The Book of Mormon.
Thi of course would be a death penalty offense in a world ruled by Osama Bin
Laden and the whahabbi muslims.

The wars fought by Book of Mormon heroes like Captain Moroni and Helaman
againts the Gadianton Robbers and the lamanites bear a striking resem-
blance to the conflict wich faces us today. As someone who believes in
both the Atonement of Christ and the reasoned, logical approach of science,
I cannot turn away from that wich I know to be true.

"And now it came to pass that when Moroni, who was the chief commander
of the armies of the Nephites, had heard of these dissensions, he was angry
with Amalickiah. And it came to pass that he rent his coat; and he took a piece
thereof, and wrote upon it—aIn memory of our God, our religion, and freedom,
and our peace, our wives, and our children—and he fastened it upon the end
of a pole. And he fastened on his head-plate, and his abreastplate, and his
shields, and girded on his armor about his loins; and he took the pole, which
had on the end thereof his rent coat, (and he called it the btitle of liberty) and he
bowed himself to the earth, and he prayed mightily unto his God for the bless-
ings of liberty to rest upon his brethren, so long as there should a band of
Christians remain to possess the land."
- The Book of Mormon, Alma 46:11-13

May the blessings of God and Liberty rest upon us all.

mister mo jihad is only dangerous to himself

his posted testimony above should help us decide whether he's worthe anymore of our time.

Greenback made an issue of

Greenback made an issue of my religious beliefs. So I clarified them.
I've seen none of the twoofers attack swmorgan or the traitor Steven
Jones for thier mormonism. For you to attack me on those grounds
would be gross hypocrisy.

I've already said to you guys that you should be seeking out the expertise
of qualified engineers and scientists to review your claims. Claiming that
theologians and economists know engineering or that Judy Wood, who
now seriously claims that the WTC was destroyed by death rays, is a
credible expert are all huge wastes of time.

If you guys are so sure of this conspiracy garbage, why don't you prove
your case instead of screwing around?

"the subsequent unusually

"the subsequent unusually large jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires (which reached temperatures as high as 1,000 degrees Celsius)"

So you're telling me there was 1,000 degree temperatures in the hole that the plane made? Then how are there PEOPLE standing in the hole looking over the edge? Humans cannot stand near these temperatures without frying. Please answer.

Also, you just stated that the planes impact and the blazing inferno were the 2 chief reasons of why the building fell, correct?

Please tell me why Building 7 was imploded onto its own footprint. It had neither jet fuel or actually jets to add to the collapse...so i would like your response.

One final thing. You state:

"This led to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns and failure of the south face of WTC 1 and the east face of WTC 2, initiating the collapse of each of the towers."

If the towers fell "inward" why is there literally debris flinged hundreds of yards in all directions, even far enough to hit building 7? If it is falling inward, why are there plumes of black smoke shooting OUTwards from the windows during collapse?

MormonJihad, please clarify.


They are loosing more by remaining silent. We all lose when we remain silent. It doesn't matter how much it affects their career, we have a chance to change the world by speaking out, and we need their support. They are cowards and they will eventually all suffer like the rest of us.

So the science is

So the science is undeniable, just there are no scientists willing
to endorse it?


And I'm glad you admit that your theories have been held back
because you have no proof. Your last sentence really tells alot.

Lord Help Us All

Brother, I think you and I have stumbled and not truly grasped the weight of this matter. I, like you, was frustrated with the so-called invinsibility of science, the sheer pride alone repulsed me in the light of the Lord Almighty. But something happened to me years later when I returned to college at the age of 55 years. I did not lose my love for the Lord, in fact it became stronger. You see, I'd been working as a maintenance man at my Church when suddenly after 25 years of honest service our pastor was arrested, an awful pedophile. G*d help those survivors. The Church was sold so I returned to school and decided to study engineering because I thought my work experience best suited such studies, and it did. It appeared that I had a future ahead of me at the age of fifty-five, imagine that. And that all happened itself 22 years ago. I'm semi-retired at the moment after having built up a pretty nifty business for myself. I managed to make a fair amount of money in my time and haved donated significantly to our Church throughout the years, and still do. But more than what I had earned in dollars and cents, is what I learned in these last 22 years about science and what a magnificent tool it is. A tool, the scientific method as it is called, allows one to apply himself in powerful ways upon the world; not compared to the power of our lord, of course, but power none the less. And because of science, I've been able to spread the love of the Lord much more so had I lived out the rest of my days in the basement of a Church with a perverted minister making filthe above me. Feinman, a scientist now passed on, had said that science was like an onion, it reveals a layer of truth one at a time. When one layer is nearly done, we peal back another layer of truth. It is this way that we move with the Lord, for G*d is not stagnent. And as with our onion, throughout every layer we know a truth consistently through and through. And to understand how to peel back the layers in our pursuit of truth with godspeed, it is best to understand the foundational principles of the physical world around us, and by applying them, we make our way in the world. I, like you, had found it difficult to believe that all of us deal with these scientific principles every day of our lives, they're nearly inescapable. My present Pastor said it best: How many of us get on a plane and take-off and fly all over the planet? And how many of us really know how the plane's flight actually works? (Vortex.) Ask yourself the next time you get on a plane, should I trust my life and the lives of my loved ones with the scientist/auronautical engineer who designed the plane? If you come to realize that science is a powerful G*d given tool, you'll quickly come to the saddest realization of your life. You'll realize that having blind faith in the Lord in one thing, but the blind faith which we've all had in our government is naivee. The bond, trust, and good word of our political leaders has been soiled with sin. Lord help us all, and Brother, may I say, the more of us on board with the truth about 911, the lesser the burden will be for our dear Lord. Get up off your hands and knees and help all of us out with bringing these criminals to Justice. And may God Bless You

That was alot of bandwidth

That was alot of bandwidth you wasted just to say
"No, we don't have any engineers who will endorse
our inane gibberish".

Show "Actually, you spoke a great" by MormonJihad (not verified)

Joseph Smith is not a

Joseph Smith is not a profit! dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb!

CENTCOM individuals will be prosecuted

Definately CENTCOM. These guys are going to be so easy to spot from now on. All we are asking for is an investigation into the mass murder of 3000 of our fellow citizens. Why would anyone want to stand in the way of that unless you were worried about who would be prosecutued. Even if you have your doubts about 911 whether it was bin Laden or Bush, an investigation is a no lose situation. We'll only discover the truth, whoever it is. So when we hear from individuals like this MormonJihad, you have to wonder, why is he standing in the way of an investigation. In fact it might just prove that he is right (I personally doubt that but let's just say an investigation will definately figure out the guilty, whoever they are). So CENTCOM, do you think all those who have signed on to try and prevent an investigation into the mass murder of 3000 US citizens will be charged with a crime as well. Do you think you should talk to a lawyer before you continue your criminal activities. OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE

So rather than debate me,

So rather than debate me, you just label me as one of "them" and start
dropping vieled threats about coming after me at some point in the future?

Your "argument" sounds suspiciously like the Al-Queada agent, "Azzam
the Americans" ultimatum of "join islam or suffer".

Do you always end up threatening people when you lose an argument?

One very important thing left out.MJ

What about the molton pools of metal running in the bottom floors of the The Twin Tower sites? If this was due to the Fuel and office media in the buildings, then this fire would have burned a few days, not weeks, nor would it have caused steel beams to melt back down into ponds of molten metal.
They should not have to continously spray water for 6 weeks while cleaning up this site.
I will wager that they do not spray water for 6 weeks on any other demolition site either. Also the pulverization of concrete that occured with this collapse which resembles a Mount St. Helens eruption does not appear in other controlled demolitions, although the end result is similar. That can't be explained away by a fire and subsequent collapse, let alone the pools of molten metal.
WTC 7 resembles more of a controlled demolition.
Why did they remove the debris as quickly as possible, risking many lives in the process? Why did it take families of the victims to get an investigation started in what happened on 9/11? They were met with resistance every step of the way..why? Why did they omit things on the commission report? Why did investigations get stopped? Why were good leads given hardly any attention, or just plain ignored? Ignored enough to give the impression of a coverup.

Gotta be centcom. Why would

Gotta be centcom. Why would people who don't want to know the truth about 9/11 waste their time reading, let alone POSTING, to 911blogger.com?


Brother. At some point the truth will be revealed to all through the lord. Until that day we must fight for the truth and fight for those that can not defined themselves. We the people have forgotten where our true power lies, strength in our numbers. In today's society one would be hard pressed to help a woman that is being raped in the streets because of fear of what might happen to them if they try to do the right thing. The truth about 9/11 is the same way, I can't get involved with that because people will call me names and think I am stupid or they will think that I am not patriotic. The sad truth is that we have forgotten to remember to be a good patriotic American you SHOULD ask questions. To be a good patriotic American you SHOULD know what you government is up to, you should question their actions, because if you do not you end up with a dictatorship.

God help us all

Thank You for your inspiring

Thank You for your inspiring words, sir. I've been pretending to not recognize the truth for some time now, but the time for pretending is over. Justice is the Christian thing to do. Thank you for helping me see the light.

You're emotional arguments are specious

Civil engineers are not expert in buildings being demolished, nor in false-flag operations in which experts stage buildings to collapse under the guise of airplanes hitting them.

Also, "engineers" do not merely sign-off on things that they haven't examined, tested, & studied first-hand and for some length of time. Furthermore, any engineers signing such a report could well be labeled as "enemy combatants" or blacklisted from gov't & private work.

Sorry, your

"Your" emotional....

"Civil engineers are not

"Civil engineers are not expert in buildings being demolished"

Wow... that was ignorant.

Yes, Civil Engineers ARE experts in building demolition.

There's only one "M" in

There's only one "M" in Mormon?


4,000 to 6,000 people to set

4,000 to 6,000 people to set up a detonation of this scale?.... I don;t think it would take nearly that many people to set this up.

First of all.... I am pretty sure that they would have used remote technology to detonate charges.... thus eliminating the need for wiring of a majority of the explosive charges. The same technology used for cellular phones. This would eliminate several hours of labor and also the visible demo and wiring needed. This remote technology is also required for the top to bottom implosion.

They had plenty of time to set this up. All they had to do was occupy the necessary office space at key locations in the building. This could have easily been done with false front companies. For many years the Towers were at 30%+ vacancy. After the 93 attacks... it was very difficult to achieve full occupancy being that the Twin Towers were a known target.

4000 to 6000 is nuts

Controlled Demolition actually put a bid on the demolition of the WTC back in 1997. It turns out the bringing down the WTC was seriously considered by the Port Authority. You see the WTC was losing a lot of money and was in need of very expensive asbestos removal job, as well a major upgrading of it's electric and plumbing. The asbestos job alone was going to be over a billion dollars. For these reasons Larry Silverstein was considered nuts for purchasing the lease to these building when it appeared there'd be no way to turn a profit, even more so when he added the cost of increasing the insurance premium to cover a terrorists attack. The WTC had been considered a finacial disaster and that is why is was planned to see if it would be more cost effeciant to demolish the buildings. And Controlled Demolition actually drew up demolition plans, that's right there were people who had already figured out how to bring down the towers with explosives. The demolition job would have used only 2000 pounds of explosives, and it would have required a crew of less than 50 individuals, less if they did the work over time, bit by bit. 6000 people is a nutty idea. Just call Controlled Demolition and ask how many men they had in their original demolition plans.

then ask them how much they

then ask them how much they would have charged if all liability had been removed.....

probably half as much

then ask if you can see their books....and employee records to see who happened to be in New York in the weeks prior to 9/11.

this probably went as an "under the table" type job.... a little extra pocket change.

That sounds suspiciously

That sounds suspiciously like an investigation, JJames.

No one in the twoof movement wants a real investigation.
They're too afraid of finding out they are wrong.

You're absoluetly right,

You're absoluetly right, 4000 to 6000 is insane. It's what makes
the controlled demo theory so crazy.

According to one engineer I've read who has written on the 9-11
conspiracy theories, it would have taken well in excess of 72,000
kg of high explosives, minimum, to achieve the level of pulveriza-
tion the twoofers claim occurred.

1500 men would be needed to set all this up within a day or two.
Where your manpower costs really skyrocket is the act of HIDING
all these explosives. It would take about ~4,000 interior renovation
contractors to replace the millions of square feet of displaced
carpets, drywall, paint and wallpaper throughout the twin towers
and building 7.

There simply never was any record of any such activity at the WTC.

There was no explosives.

Do you have a source for this?

not that I don't believe you, it's just that it's a sledgehammer argument, and I want a certificate on that sledgehammer.

Kroll etc

I wonder what Kroll and other firms in the business of supplying mercenaries and other "security services" with offices at the WTC might have been up to. Info from Richard Allen Grove, a whistle-blower, on this very subject are worth a read.

You wouldnt need anywhere

You wouldnt need anywhere near that amount of people to rig it for demolition, how did you arrive at figure of 4000 - 6000 people?

As for interviews with survivors of WTC then there are plenty of them out there that talk of hearing explosions and seeing flashes etc as buildings come down.

I think you need to do some more research.

I did my research. The

I did my research.

The worlds largest controlled demo took approximately took 8 months
and 33,000 man hours to prepare to push the button on a 33 level
structure. That's roughly 1000 man hours per level. Multiplied across
the 267 total floors of WTC 1, 2 and 7 we have 267,000 man hours of
work to be done before we can blow up the WTC.

But that's not all, since we're an evil conspiracy and we need to hide
what we've done till the remote controlled planes are ready, we need
to replace all the drywall, carpets, drapes, cieling tiles furniture and
anything else that was accidentally damaged or ripped out to allow
access to the WTC structural members.

To be honest, I have NO idea how many interior rennovations people
and materials THAT job would take. Suffice it to say, it would be the most
massive interior rennovations job in the history of the east coast. Con-
tractors would be flying in from Florida and eastern Canada to handle the

4,000 to 6,000 is a LOW estimate.

9/11 was a cake-walk

I am appalled that someone gave you a -4 point Karma status. Good questions! To answer this question from a military stand point is that there was alot of people involved with carrying out 9/11. Here is an example of how part of the operation was carried out. The less people you have the more that each individual will have to do in order to carry out the mission, this would jeopardize the operation. You say and others that it would take thousands of people to set up the WTC towers for demolition. You are absolutely right! One was rigged in 93 with the cabling, and the other days/weeks prior to 9/11. You give an outside contractor/s to lay conduit/cabling within the towers leaving terminations all along the way. You give another contractor boxes which have the charges in them and when they are placed in the brackets installed by the previous cablers the charge is laying up next to the appropriate column/truss. The only people involved are a few personnel placing the charges in these boxes which initself took place along time before 9/11, but they thought these for for some other contract they were doing.

The only way that 9/11 could have been pulled off was by a criminal sect within the US government. The story of 19 Boxcutting Arabs is a joke!


"I am appalled that someone

"I am appalled that someone gave you a -4 point Karma status."

Some people can't handle the truth.

Favorite single page summary of tower demolition

This is my favorite page that helps explain a lot. I was discussing this with my brother the other day, and he was getting almost violent - how could I be so stupid - he was in New York and he saw (on TV) the planes hit the towers, yada yada yada.


Kudos to Kevin Barrett for this one.

Don't lose hope man. I

Don't lose hope man. I discussed this one night with my own brother and he was the same way. In fact I learned something about him that night. He made arguements that had no bearing on the case being debated. The arguements were thick in emotion and thin on facts. Since that time back in May he has since decided that he is open to it. I don't know what opened his mind in that time but just remember when debating to stick to the facts. Throwing about emotional appeals probably won't convert him. Patience and persistance will win the day.

this is STUNNING.

the guy looks serious to me when he says it, and notice the comment Leahy(who was anthraxed by this administration/cabal/whatever) says about 9/11 happening on Bushs watch at the end of the clip.

Deputy Attorney General: "The President is Always Right"

A remarkable off the cuff admission, coming from the number two man in the so-called Department of 'Justice'.

This blind allegiance is particularly disturbing, since I can't think of even ONE occasion when this president wasn't wrong.

this is great, as usual GW.

this is great, as usual GW. im gonna give this to this guy at work. hes a very smart guy, knows all about media consolidation and how hes being lied to, but cant bring himself past saying "its possible they let it happen, but i doubt it".

...83% and growing!

What will it take to convince my so-called "bible-belt" neighbors? If their favorite nazi-Newscasters showing doubts, say, O'Riley were to suddenly start firing-off at the fascist pigs, this would go a long way.

The second thing that would really help set things straight is if we suddenly attack IRAN, (knowing of no reason other than a, 11Century 'bitch' between the Jews and the Persians,) and this caused the chicken-hawks to re-instate the draft.

Learning that THEY will die soon from Cancer because there is a 'symbiotic relationship' between the many carcenogenic food-additives, water additives and chemtrails that are being dumped on their house, and integrated into their lives, via TV-hype and falsified FDA certifications.

Recently, I asked my Doctor a simple question; how will I get my medicine in an emergency? He got really angry and said there was Not going to be no emergency. This led to a discussion about carbon-loading, energy prices and microbiological soil solutions. I decided that the man was an idiot as he essentially related all of the front-page B.S. about how 'Ethanol' would save America.

With this, I started writing to various Foreign Leaders for asylum, because if a (175+ i.q.) so-called 'genius' don't get it, how can you expect a measley structural engineer to understand why 'total materials pulverization' won't stand-up in a court of law?

Not to debate both Darwinism and the Big-Bang in a simple post, but clearly some of us DID NOT evolve very far from the monkey!

OT: Ruppert MP3

for those Ruppert/FTW fans, they posted this MP3 to the members area within the past week or so, 'twas recorded 10/9, a Ruppert monolog from Caracas VZ. 24 mins, 22MBs:


Not really 911 related, more current events.

George Washington read this.

Hey GW I was reading your article, very good by the way, and I clicked on one of your links for your "Foreign Evill" article


In that article you stated:

"And the Russian KGB conducted a wave of bombings in Russia in order to justify war against Chechnya and put Vladimir Putin into power"

I just wanted to point out the KGB was disolved after the collapse of the soviet union and was replaced by the FSK which was then replaced by the FSB. The FSB was most likely the culprit of the Moscow appartment building bombings. The KGB didnt even exist. I just thought you might be interested in correcting that error.

source http://www.russiansabroad.com/russian_history_365.html

DZ- what's this guys URL, is it Boeing?

Things need to accelerate quickly, given 6166, and the coming fake election.

Between 2002 and 2005, I didn't push my "9/11 WTC take-over testimony" aside from e'mails with the experts themselves. These forums held no real content for those of us involved. After you guys got my piece, I received 300,000 hits at my site in September, and nearly that many this month too. They zapped my e'mail, but I don't care. Frankly, I'm way past caring about the future of this case, or this country.

But, the real question remains, (no credit to our recent Jahidist member,) which is; what would it take for 500,000 pissed-off Americans to storm Washington and kill everyone involved? Will they have to steal your 8 year old son and turn him into their latest bedroom-prospect? How about putting viral agents in your food, cleverly designed to cause Cancer in the presence of Aspertaime, or Chemtrails? ..Don't believe in Chemtrails? Then you can't see color.

As Americans we were taught to defend the Constitution, but we bought the official line. Now, with no family farms, we've no guarantees of any kind. Those of you who choose to stay now had better be prepared to go for the throat when the trouble comes. Study anarchy, study Royalty, study shipping and storage of goods. The others will underwrite their own deaths, but it's the Davos 500 crowd you're going to have to eliminate, in every case.

I always see jets spraying

I always see jets spraying chemtrails over san diego. probably like once every three weeks. very elaborate flight paterns too. I just wish I knew why and what the fuck theyre spraying.


I believe the chemtrails are being used for weather modification..... they have found iodized metal in the residue....

if they can spray this in the upper atmosphere ...the minute particles of metal can then be hit with microwaves and heated up..... this influx of heat in the upper atmosphere will cause that air to rise and create areas of high pressure.... thus allowing more violent fluxuations in weather patterns....

there were several months here in Illinois when there were no chemtrails....the weather was great!.... no violent storms.... everything seemed regular..... last month they started spraying again and the weather has been very unusual once again..... very cold and windy for this time of year.

Are there other reasons... possibly.... what do you think the effect of breating in iodized particles of barrium would do to you?

If you have metal particles residing in your nasal cavity....and they point one of their microwave weapons at you... what do you think will happen??

Instant labotomy!

9/11 Health Worker Lawsuit Allowed to Proceed

9/11 Health Worker Lawsuit Allowed to Proceed
Here in New York, a judge has okayed a case that’s seeking health damages for emergency workers involved in the cleanup after the 9/11 attacks. More than three thousand workers have filed suit against city officials and contractors for failing to provide proper breathing equipment


Interesting points, all

Sorry to go off on Sheen and the Canadian punster, and yes, it's funny how adversity actually makes our faith grow stronger.

This Health-case may be the ticket, because the Judge knows exactly what sort of window it offers us all, as do the puppet-masters down in DC. Big crowds of people will be there wishing to get another message into the kettle.

Not "A" judge, "THE" judge

The judge who is being given every 9/11 related case. Why? Why do you think? Look it up, folks, this guy is part of the problem.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force


amazing commentary.

Countdown Special Comment: Death of Habeas Corpus: “Your words are lies, Sir.”

Olbermann: And lastly, as promised, a Special Comment tonight on the signing of the Military Commissions Act and the loss of Habeas Corpus.

We have lived as if in a trance. We have lived… as people in fear.

And now — our rights and our freedoms in peril — we slowly awake to learn that we have been afraid… of the wrong thing.
For, on this first full day that the Military Commissions Act is in force, we now face what our ancestors faced, at other times of exaggerated crisis and melodramatic fear-mongering:

A government more dangerous to our liberty, than is the enemy it claims to protect us from.
We have accepted, that the only way to stop the terrorists, is to let the government become just a little bit like the terrorists.

Just the way we once accepted that the only way to stop the Soviets, was to let the government become just a little bit like the Soviets.

Or substitute… the Japanese.

Or the Germans.

Or the Socialists.

Or the Anarchists.

Or the Immigrants.

Or the British.

Or the Aliens.

The most vital, the most urgent, the most inescapable of reasons.

And, always, always… wrong.

"With the distance of history, the questions will be narrowed and few: Did this generation of Americans take the threat seriously, and did we do what it takes to defeat that threat?"

Wise words.

And ironic ones, Mr. Bush.

Your own, of course, yesterday, in signing the Military Commissions Act.

You spoke so much more than you know, Sir.

Sadly — of course — the distance of history will recognize that the threat this generation of Americans needed to take seriously… was you.

We have a long and painful history of ignoring the prophecy attributed to Benjamin Franklin that "those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

But even within this history, we have not before codified, the poisoning of Habeas Corpus, that wellspring of protection from which all essential liberties flow.

You, sir, have now befouled that spring.

You, sir, have now given us chaos and called it order.

You, sir, have now imposed subjugation and called it freedom.

For the most vital… the most urgent… the most inescapable of reasons.

And — again, Mr. Bush — all of them, wrong.

We have handed a blank check drawn against our freedom to a man who may now, if he so decides, declare not merely any non-American citizens "Unlawful Enemy Combatants" and ship them somewhere — anywhere — but may now, if he so decides, declare you an "Unlawful Enemy Combatant" and ship you somewhere - anywhere.

And if you somehow think Habeas Corpus has not been suspended for American citizens but only for everybody else, ask yourself this: If you are pulled off the street tomorrow, and they call you an alien or an undocumented immigrant or an "unlawful enemy combatant" — exactly how are you going to convince them to give you a court hearing to prove you are not? Do you think this Attorney General is going to help you?

This President now has his blank check.

He lied to get it.

He lied as he received it.
Is there any reason to even hope, he has not lied about how he intends to use it, nor who he intends to use it against?

"One of the terrorists believed to have planned the 9/11 attacks," …you told us yesterday… "said he hoped the attacks would be the beginning of the end of America."

That terrorist, sir, could only hope.

Not his actions, nor the actions of a ceaseless line of terrorists (real or imagined), could measure up to what you have wrought.

Habeas Corpus? Gone.

The Geneva Conventions? Optional.

The Moral Force we shined outwards to the world as an eternal beacon, and inwards at ourselves as an eternal protection? Snuffed out.

These things you have done, Mr. Bush… they would be "the beginning of the end of America."
Did it ever occur to you once, that in just 27 months and two days from now when you leave office, some irresponsible future President and a "competent tribunal" of lackeys would be entitled, by the actions of your own hand, to declare the status of "Unlawful Enemy Combatant" for… and convene a Military Commission to try… not John Walker Lindh, but George Walker Bush?


show this man some support, he may not be willing or able to broach the subject of 9/11 truth, but i never would have thought i would hear such realistic and rational talk on cable news. e-mail Olbermann and tell him to keep it up and go further. he needs our support. it is likely he will be fired before 2008, despite his ratings. he is the ONLY talking head to point out the obvious in regards to the death of habeas corpus. we are all now potentially enemy combatants. the stage has now been set for dictatorship.

I really don't see how Olbermann helps 9/11 Truth

He's just giving lots of people to vote in Democrats who also don't support 9/11 Truth. I honestly can't see why he, or Colbert, or Jon Stewart are to be given any credit for saying the safe things they say. Do you think that MSNBC or Keith himself worry that they will be sanctioned for this watered down version of the truth? Of course not! They are gatekeepers extraordinaire. Think about it--"Well jeez, if even Keith Olbermann doesn't put any stock in 9/11 Truth, why should I? I mean, he's like, SO anti-Bush!"

Wake up and smell the lies people--ALL OF THEM!


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force


do you have tunnel vision?

do you have tunnel vision? does habeas corpus not matter to you? does the constitution not matter to you? do you only care about 1 issue, 9/11? i would agree, 9/11 truth is EASILY the most important issue. that doesnt mean it the ONLY issue like many in the movement seem to think. you can do a lot of good without talking about 9/11 truth, contrary to many 9/11 truth movements members beliefs. Olbermann is the ONLY person talking about the death of our constitution in realistic terms, and you dont see the good in that? you honestly dont appreciate that? i think you need to put things in perspective. here is a guy employed by G.E. fighting the good fight on most issues. he deserves some support, not more "hes not good enough, hes a gatekeeper for not talking about 9/11" bullshit. this may be "watered down truth" to you, but its still the truth, everything he said in that commentary, and thats something you would not see come from any other MSM talking heads mouth. i think you may have a very naive vision of how the media works. if Olbermann "came out" for 9/11 truth tomorrow, he would be out of a job by next week. im not making excuses for him, thats just the reality. you do know what happened to Phil Donahue correct? i agree with just about everything you have posted since you've been coming to this site, but you fall into the same trap as many other truthers when it comes to understanding the media. you have to be realistic. it bothers the hell outta me when people dont give credit where its due. its very much due to Olbermann here, with or without 9/11 truth. did you even watch the video before commenting? or did you just notice he didnt mention 9/11 and didnt even bother?

To send Keith kudos....

.... countdown@msnbc.com

Well said, Chris. I hope Keith can keep his job going this far, let alone exposing 9/11.

We have to make 9/11 Truth so pervasive that Keith can address it safely. Given the nature of the corporate controlled and consolidated media, we have to lead on this, not TV announcers....but I feel people like Keith and Lou Dobbs will follow once we have critical mass.

The point is...

The point is that the Military Commissions Act that Bush just signed allows him to name anyone he wants an "enemy combatant" who can then be detained and locked away anywhere in the world without the protection of habeas corpus.

When they decide to use these powers on Americans I think it's pretty reasonable to expect that 9/11 Truthers will be pretty high on their list. (was O'Reilly's suggestion to the Feds when Fetzer was on his show recently just a preview?)

So, though not directly supporting 9/11 Truth, Olbermann is supporting what's right and, with this particular issue, he's criticizing a policy that could essentially snuff out the movement, legally (now) and effectively.

(edit: my reply was meant for Real Truther, not Chris)

You're playing right into the fear-mongering

If at this point we really depended on the letter of the "law according to Bush" we would have all been disappeared a while ago. Crap like this is unconstitutional and only serves as a method of intimidating people who fixate on it so that they won't dare 1) post on boards like this so that the real people can outnumber the shills (who know better than to be afraid) 2) look for information online for fear of being spied on and reported and sent to Gitmo 3) be seen talking to or associating with anyone who Bush might one day decide is an "enemy combatant".

This is an unfortunate wiong of the truth movement--the chicken littles who cry on and on about concentration camps, laser beams, the shredded bill of rights, bla bla bla. The only people who seem to worry about these things are those for whom the Internet provides their main window on reality--and the powers that be like keeping those people glued to their computers arguing on boards like this with shils.

That keeps them too scared to be seen in public prominently advocating for the truth. I'm SO glad most people I talk to in the street have no clue who this Olbermann guy is--otheriwse they would just keep to themselves for fear of being dragged away in the night. You have to have a pretty one-dimensional mind not to see this for what it is--traditional psy-ops. Of course people here sometimes are the type that think they know all about psy-ops and couldn't be fooled. Sorry, but anyone going on and on about this horrible loss of habeas corpus is simply helping to create a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And flarney, for you to say that this now makes it legal to snuff out the movement--you seem not understand how the American government works. Until an unconstitutional law is challenged in court (because it is used on somebody and they contest it) there is no claim to be made that it is constitutional or therefore "legal". You can follow Olbermann all the way to the gatekeepers' Hall of Shame, where Amy Goodman and Noam Chomsky will join him in blasting that durned fascist Bush for exploiting the evil Muslims' evilness for his own gain.

Good luck to you!


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force


Good points

Thanks for the reply...I totally see where you're coming from.

And now for my unorganized, rambling response...

I still think, and maybe I'm just naive on this, that Olbermann is still helping out on some level. To explain...as I see it, the only way we're going to get an independent investigation whose results will be meaningful to the US public is if our congress commissions and pays for it. I just don't see the US public trusting an international investigation that shows that the US govt carried out 9/11...in fact I think that would just make a large portion of our population more nationalistic and contemptuous of the Truth movement.

So, for us to get a Congress-commissioned, independent (congress pays for it, provides essential subpoena power, then gets no other influence) investigation, we have to get the NeoCons out of office...assuming that they will leave office peacefully, which seems doubtful at this point.

I'm pretty new to the movement, and maybe I lack some imagination as far as how the truth can be exposed and believed by enough people to blow this thing wide open...but to me it seems essential that we get the current criminals out of office (I'm not talking left/right bullshit, just this particular group of NeoCon thugs) before we can get the investigation we need/want. Olbermann's criticism of the Bush admin has to help to some degree, though obviously we can't rely on him or any other TV commentator to endorse the Truth movement.

Plus, it's just nice to hear someone on tv taking calling those fuckers out.

Again, thanks for the reply...

thanks flarney--that's a model way of disagreeing!

I can totally see how getting a democrat congress might make things easier, but I try not to pin too many hopes on them doing the right thing once the excuse of "we don't have the votes" is taken away.

If Olbermann had been this vocal back when it would have meant saving the lives of 600,000 Iraqis, in other words, when I and so many others were freezing our asses at demos, handing out leaflets, etc., I would have been a LOT more grateful. Likewise, when 9/11 Truth takes off and everyone and his sister is singing the tune, I will still have been more grateful had they done so NOW instead of once it was safe.

Remember--Olbemann is doing this knowing full well that only 30% of Americans support Bush--is that really bravery? Isn't it more brave almost to try to defend the guy?

I also don't mean to make light of what could turn out to be more than a bluff on the part of the powers that be, but I stand by my position of thinking that this stuff gets way too much attention to the detriment of actual productive truth work.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force


just a side note, Donahue,

just a side note, Donahue, on MSNBC, was fired for doing just what you asked Olbermann to do. be against the war in Iraq. he had the higest rated show on MSNBC at the time, but they fired him anyway. Olbermann wasnt even employed by MSNBC at the time.

yes, everything,literally

yes, everything,literally everything, including Olbermann is a psy-op. there is nothing that is not a conspiracy, everyone is involved. jesus. im afraid your too jaded at this point. its not as black and white as you would want it to be. and again, the mere fact that the psy op media isnt reporting on habeas corpus save Olbermann pretty much shows they dont wanna talk about it for a reason. i dont see how that fits into your little media psy op conspiracy. my mom happens to be a big fan of Olbermann, and i can assure you he doesnt make her afraid that shes going to get dragged away in the night like you claim. so i guess the psy-ops a failure huh? he does, on the other hand, cause her, and others like her, i assume, to look closer at what her government is doing, something you fail to recognize. hes a net plus and deserves some credit for going further than any other MSM talking head and causing people to at least take a closer look. again, PERSPECTIVE. i understand this is the corporate MSM we are talking about, thats what makes Olbermanns comments as of late especially surprising. yes, hes no Kurt Nimmo, but if you cant recognize the generally positive effect Olbermann is having, i cant help you. how you were able to turn it into "its a fear mongering psy-op!" is beyond me. i guess some people cant help but see a conspiracy behind literally everything.

nice use of shill tactics!

Yep, that's just what I was saying Chris, EVERYTHING is a conspiracy. Because I encourage people to think critically even about things that on the surface seem good. I don't know if your naivete is natural or feigned, but maybe you should watch Orwell Rolls in His Grave. You'll hear Mark Crispin Miller, Prof. at NYU quote Goebbels on what was desired in a media/propaganda system... he said something to the effect of "what you want is ostensible diversity masking an actual uniformity."

We know the MSM is uniformly anti-Truth. Is it beyond the pale to suggest that having an Olbermann in there is the attempt at "ostensible diversity"?

But let's make sure we understand each other--I'm not saying that tehre isn't a bright side--the need to constantly move in the direction of popular opinion means that they do have to allow for an Olbermann here and there to maintain credibility.

Now, Olbermann lures people who would otherwise find nothing worth watching on MSM back to the tube, where they can then watch commercials and possibly expose themselves to all kinds of other manipulation.

But at the same time MAYBE a few people will be inspired by his words to do more than just vote Democratic in the fall (let's see if he keeps this up after the elections, or if his caution will rise along with gas prices!) Maybe a few folks here and there will have an epiphany through the MSNBC fog. Maybe our being able to remix the media and include his speeches in better context will help us. This is all possible.

I am not talking black and white--that was you putting words in my mouth. But if you really think Olbermann is one of the "good guys" who just happens to still work for corporate mfs, AND who is given plenty of airtime and the freedom to use it just because the system still works, then you need to increase your own number of shades of gray. Do you honestly think he says anything that is not approved at the highest levels of corporate shilldom?

You say he's a net plus, fine--I can't easily refute that nor can you easily prove it. ALL I'm saying is be conscious of possible ulterior motives before adopting a corporate shill as a pet. They have a way of changing their colors once you get them home!


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force


Chris, you make the mistake of thinking

That Olbermann is a genuine maverick. But you say yourself--he collects his paycheck from G.E.

It is not brave to speak out against a monstrous injustice that everyone sees as such. How many people is he really pissing off with this talk? Do you also believe that Colbert went out on a limb when he made fun of W at the press corps event? Where is the fallout from that? Isn't it odd that he hasn't been fired?

I bet you also think we should applaud John McCain for bravely speaking out against torture.

No, I'm with MLK on this one. The time has come when silence is betrayal. When you know a man has been beating his wife, and all you can muster is a complaint about his alcoholism because you're afraid or whatever, you are being a wimp and should not be worshipped for being the only one to go that far. Could I not just as easily be fired for doing what I do and saying what I say? What makes him special, the fact that he has a large audience and keeps silent on something he must know full well?

What ever happened to QUITTING A CRAPPY JOB because you don't agree with your employeers? He'll be out on the street and on welfare, is that it? Or maybe the publicity will shoot his books up to the top of the bestseller lists.

All I can say Chris is that you are so wrong on this, and wasting your time sucking up to the one corporate shill who throws you a little bone is pretty weak. You really think Habeas Corpus is what protected you before? You really think Bush can do away with it with the stroke of a pen?

Dude, you still need to get some of the kool aid out of your system. Olbermann would kick you in the nuts himself for being so gullible, and you would most likely thank him and ask for the pleasure again!


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force


you just dont get it. im not

you just dont get it. im not gonna argue, but im NOT sucking up to Olbermann, i said give credit where it is due. you have ZERO perspective. i understand, i have a bit of tunnel vision myself when it comes to this issue but you have to be realistic and cleary you are not when it comes to our current media system. if im drinking kool aid(im not) then you are hopelessly unrealistic. lets say Olbermann quits because he cant talk abotu 9/11. who does that leave on on mainstream tv to point out the crimes of our current government? nobody. not a one. again, im not making excuses for him, but i am being realistic. you should try it. im angry just like you, but im not gonna shit all over the one person on cable news that at least gets most issues right. yes, its VERY sad that Olbermann gets props for pointing out the obvious. its also, again, our reality. you bet i would applaud Mccain? i was the among the first on this site if not the first to say it was a dog and pony show and that Mccain the coward would cave just like Graham and Warner. dont put words or thoughts in my mouth, you clearly dont know me. again, i agree with so much ive seen that you have posted, but you dont seem to understand the media. yeah, lets shit all over Olbermann for not doing something completely unrealistic like claiming 9/11 was an inside job on MSNBC, and forget all of the great work hes done in other areas that NOBODY else in the MSM is going close to. christ, Donahue was fired simply for being against the Iraq war in a time when even the most "far left" tv commentators were flag waving. your wrong about habeas corpus by the way, this is a big deal, a big story, and the medias silence on the issue(except for that "corprate shill", Olbermann) proves im right. RT, not everything is black and white, not even in 9/11 truth. one more note, its not always about "how many people hes pissing off" as you said. hes waking up many americans, im sure, with his take on our current situation. is that not a good thing? a net gain? or would it be better if Olbermann was gone and made zero impact on ANY americans? i have one last very important word for you, because you really need it. perspective.

OK Chris, I propose a truce

I don't think you're drinking kool aid. I think we have a genuine disagreement on the relative merits/benefits of Olbermann's work. Do I need perspective? Sometimes, sure. Maybe even right now and I'm glad you're able to express your disagreement cogently. Do I understand the media? I think I do, since I've been studying it for some time now, having been a news junkie since about age 12 and taken a few classes on it in college. I think this and my post upstairs a way sum up how I feel. Thanks for taking the time to respond to my dissent, and I hope we can continue to work towards our common goal. p eace.


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force


sounds good to me. as far as

sounds good to me. as far as Olbermann goes, i believe in giving credit where it is due. of course hes not going far enough, nobody in the MSM would even be capable of it. but i can honestly say that i have never seen anyone with their own show on cable news speak as much truth as he has in recent months. did you happen to see his shows on "the nexus of politics and terror"? how can you call him a fear monger after that? the whole point of the show was expose fake terror threats and manipulation. how is that not a net plus? how is that not a good thing? think of the average american watching it, not you and i and the people on this board. a show like that could potentially be the catalyst for that average american to wake the f*ck up and look closer. there was genuine anger coming from Olbermann last night and people will respond to that. you have to take your head out of the rabbit hole sometimes to appreciate certain things. i dont expect Keith Olbermann to save us, but i do give him credit when its due. watch the commentary and tell me it aint due. watch "the nexus of politics and terror" and tell me it aint due. not everyone thinks like us and sees what we see. we are the minority, and sadly, to be informed you cant rely on the news, you have to do it yourself. at least Olbermann can change a few apathetic american minds and jolt them into action. agree to disagree, we both have the same basic objectives im sure and like i said, i generally give your posts points up almost everytime i see them because i agree with what you say for the most part. we just see the role/capability of the media in different terms. anyway,keep up the good fight, you know i will.

If you read his

If you read his comentary..... sometimes he does slip in an inferrence to who's responsible for 9/11..or who's to blame... or how the terror is real or made up.... He always drops in a line that could be interpretted as a reference to those really behind 9/11

i'll have to look again for those...

and if they're there, then great! but I'm really tired of having to lower our standards so as to have something to cheer for. we'll see how things play out as awareness increases--for all I know he's in charge of easing America into 9/11 truth. i doubt it, but who knows!


Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force


This is what it would take!

If an independent commitee of really rich people Could purchase a Building Half the size of either one of the towers and crash TWO planes into the SAME building and the whole world would just watch it burn for 2 days without collapsing I beleive would answer pretty much everyones questions!

unfortunately that will never happen, it would just make to much sense!

Wellstone needed now more than ever

I really miss Sen. Paul Wellstone.

Yeah. The "stand up, keep fighting" senator from Minnesota who wasn't afraid to speak out for the little guy and gal. Who actually represented "we the people" and boldly stood up against corporate power.

Yeah, former Gov. Jesse Ventura may say it was pilot error but I disagree. I'm on board with Prof. Jim Fetzer, a former prof at Univ. of Minnesota-Duluth, who concludes Wellstone's plane was taken down in order to silence his progressive and truthful voice. Too much was at stake, and the New World Order couldn't risk Wellstone meddling into their affairs.

David Morris: What would Wellstone have done? He would have fought.
The Geneva Conventions. The writ of habeas corpus. Presidential power. Torture.
Four years ago this month Paul Wellstone was taken from us. Today, more than ever, American politics suffers from his absence.
Three weeks before he died, Paul voted against war in Iraq. At the time, his opponent was aggressively accusing Paul of being weak on national security. Polls told Paul a vote against war would lose him the election. But as he told the Washington Post two days after the vote, "I think people want you to do what you think is right ... ." And added, in typical Wellstone fashion, "how would I have had the enthusiasm and the fight if I had actually cast a vote I didn't believe in? I couldn't do that."
And he knew how to speak truth to power. When Exxon, the No. 1 oil company, gobbled up No. 2 Mobil, and the No. 1 grain company, Cargill, devoured runner-up Continental Grain, and the No. 1 bank, Citicorp, snapped up Travelers Insurance, the silence from Washington was deafening.

The New York Times, commenting about the Exxon-Mobil merger, observed, "scarcely a politician of any stripe headed for the cameras" to question "whether the $76 billion deal was good for the country, for workers or for consumers." Except one: "Senator Paul Wellstone, the Minnesota Democrat who is among the few in Congress still exercised about the concentration of corporate power ... ."

In 1996, Paul was among the very few who voted against the Telecommunications Act. He argued it would lead to concentrated ownership. He was right. Over the next 22 months, more than 1,000 radio stations were sold. Some 450 owners left the field. Single companies now dominate local radio broadcasting.


there was simply too much at stake for them NOT to have killed him. of course they killed him. Ventura is wrong.

Wellstone needed now more than ever

Your right about that! I miss him too. He was a real pain in the A** for the neoconmen. The whole plane accident has way too many coincidences as far as timing and what was at stake politically. I read Fetzer's book "American Assassination" and he provides some really good arguments for it being a hit. Bush Sr couldn't stand him.....he had to be good to get under the skin of a crook like that.

Bush Sr. called him

Bush Sr. called him chickenshit. when the head of the Bush crime family cant contain his anger over someone, you know that someone really is a major problem. we know how H.W. deals with problems. he kills them.

Jim Fetzer's show on RBN canceled


I don't blame Stadtmiller. RBN is very libertarian and Fetzer had to jock the Clintons excessively in that rant. How does Fetzer not understand that the Clintons are the opposite side of the oligarchy's coin? Stadtmiller's explosion on this is unbelievable. It's too bad, because they are both good truthers.

he may have jocked the

he may have jocked the Clintons a bit too much there, but he made a lot of good points and should not be fired for making political statements. thats ridiculous and Stadtmiller comes off as extremely petty.(and its not just because i disagree with his politics) Fetzer is naive in thinking Hillary is anything but a weak pawn, but he shouldnt be censored for naivity. Stadtmiller said-"i know that Hillary Clinton is a LESBIAN CAUSE I WAS TOLD SHE WAS IN A STALL IN WASHINGTON DC!!!!!". the guy sounded like a loon. screw him. and to call both Fetzer and FDR socialist shows how simplistic the guy is. so petty.

Stadtmiller is wrong

...not to mention hysterical.....thinking government can have role in our society does not make one a "Marxist" (a word he slings around pretty recklessly...ironically, it reminds me of O'Reilly's name-calling of Fetzer the other night).

Fetzer is an accomplished intelligent liberal patriotic American and is a welcome voice on 9/11 and anything else.

I'm not as supportive of Bill and Hillary as he is, but the 90's in America look like the Garden of Eden compared to the last 6 years.

Social programs and capitalism can coexist in the same society and that society can prosper from it. Neither total government control nor unchecked market forces solve all problems. But a mix that has vigilent oversight can accomplish a lot.

"Libertarians" who think society can prosper without the greater good being addressed on some level are the ones being naive.

And, what makes programs that passed through Congress unconstitutional, exactly?

And so what if Hillary or Eleanor are/were lesbians (according to Stadtmiller), unless they are preying on kids or enacting anti-gay legislation? A person's personal life is just that, unless it impacts their job as a public servant. It comes off as scurrilous gossip.

A 'soup' of troubles...

This dude, Tommy Malley, when he called he said, "Look, we're in a soup of troubles." -It was so funny, so Brooklyn, so true.

There is an International weather treaty behind the spraying of the chemtrails. It's all over the globe, and it was sold on the basis that this was the only way this would work to reduce warming. (Probably not explained by the film Inconvienent Truth.) In theory, there is no human intervention. When the plane gets above a hot-spot, it dumps a stream over that particular Metro area. You can see the build-up on the windy side of town, as though it's designed to fall toward the local, brown-cloud of pollution. On that basis, nothing they might say in Stockholm, or Kansas City, would disturb these perps rights to dump crap on us. What i's NOT acceptable is that you and I never had the right to vote on this, nor can we rescend it, therefore, ( like UFO's,) - it's above 'Top-Secret.'

Rense showed the chem. break-down over Seattle, I think i t has Barium and Aluminum oxide. Essentially, it's like spun fiberglass to our lungs, so if you do insulation for a living, you've got no reason to complain anyway. -Right!

Count on this, there will be a reduction in the use of spraying before the Nov. selection. Gas prices will hold, and there will be several small domestic problems, like Columbine High, version 2, and 3.

Back on point, I think that - - giving people the image of Hassert reaming their 9-year old boys - - is about as good a PR shot as we have for low-blling their vote count below the 43% threshold we'll need to 'prove' they can't win. Another good way, is rounding-up ordinary citizens, (take them to a camp in Canada,) and report to their families that their daddy was taken by some mean Gov. G-Men, who beat them silly as they loaded him into a black van!!

Did Sadam know?

The last sentence taken from Sadam Hussein's response to the attacks of 9/11 - this on the morning of 9/12:

'Therefore, The American people must remember all of that.. and if they remember it, they will save their security, and the security of the world from their rulers.. and if what happened to America is an internal matter, then the residents of the house are better than other to diagnose the disease.'

Take HEED! Pay attention to this project.

Keep your eyes on this project. It will be interesting to see what survivors of the WTC collapses have to say.

HEED is a three year project fully funded by the UK Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council (EPSRC), the equivalent of the US National Science Foundation, with a budget of £UK1.6 million ($US2.9 million). The project is a collaboration between three UK universities, the Universities of Greenwich, Ulster and Liverpool and brings together the UK’s leading experts in Fire Safety Engineering and evacuation behaviour.

Does anybody in the UK, or elsewhere who is associated with HEED, have any info to share on what WTC survivors are saying?

Here is the link describing the project

Here is the link for WTC survivors to register at:

The main objectives of the project include: collect and collate the human actions and experience in the WTC disaster and structure this into a database that will provide an interactive research environment.

The data collection will focus on the two towers. As part of this project it is anticipated that some 2000 survivors from the WTC collapse will be interviewed.

Schedule of activities:
April 2006 Next round of New York interview dates: 1st May to 26th May 2006

November 2005 Next round of New York interview dates: 30th January to 17th March 2006

March 2005 Second round of New York interview dates: 4th April to 13th May 2005

December 2004 First round of New York interview dates: 24th January to 10th February 2005.

September 2004 The Project HEED interview and technical team has now been appointed.

May 2004 The expected start date for the project is 1st September 2004

Knowing what must be done

"Denial" keeps floating to the top of this thread, maybe we're making progress.

I'll say that it's not really about convincing the masses to look at the 'Truth,' (vis-a-vie, the obvious facts,) nearly as much as it is about turning the consensus towards the absolute desire to seek 'finality.'

-"Box cutters?"

Griffin, artfully compiles his very best argument, before he breaks it down to a base-line 'moral' issue. As such, we must not discount that both the Presbyterians, and the Catholic Churches have issued similar statements reflecting these core beliefs. (Without presenting the pearl-handled dueling pistols.)

-"What crimes?"

So, we need to envision a day where everybody understands that this trial must be done, and we don't have that reasoning in our current marketing paradigm.

-9/11: "What Rule of Law?"

I am citing * MormonJihaid *

Sorry to garrison your ego, but I am citing * MormonJihaid * for irrelevant and pointless communication. I am now pulling-rank here, because I have an extra Ace in my deck, one which you cannot claim!

I was directly involved in the planning-stages of the crime. This made me, legally, "an accessory to the crime."

I am the only prior employee of the World Trade Center Architects to come forward in this way. I have been asked, specifically by the US Army Intelligence, to appear at the Hague, should my live testimony become necessary.

Whether my personal slant is considered good, bad, or indifferent, I have a very serious committment to participate in the resolution of our problem here.

Lastly, you really screwed-up the day you showed up, when you calimed to have been "Steven Jones prior male-lover." Sure, dude! We're all on the edge of our seats over that one.

...How about you, do you folks smell a rat in the kitchen?

(vote accordingly)

Rat? No. What I'm smelling

Rat? No.

What I'm smelling is more bovine in origin.

Mormon Please Reply

"the subsequent unusually large jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires (which reached temperatures as high as 1,000 degrees Celsius)"

So you're telling me there was 1,000 degree temperatures in the hole that the plane made? Then how are there PEOPLE standing in the hole looking over the edge? Humans cannot stand near these temperatures without frying. Please answer.

Also, you just stated that the planes impact and the blazing inferno were the 2 chief reasons of why the building fell, correct?

Please tell me why Building 7 was imploded onto its own footprint. It had neither jet fuel or actually jets to add to the collapse...so i would like your response.

One final thing. You state:

"This led to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns and failure of the south face of WTC 1 and the east face of WTC 2, initiating the collapse of each of the towers."

If the towers fell "inward" why is there literally debris flinged hundreds of yards in all directions, even far enough to hit building 7? If it is falling inward, why are there plumes of black smoke shooting OUTwards from the windows during collapse?

MormonJihad, please clarify.

He replies within 30 minutes

He replies within 30 minutes in every other post but hasn't responded to mine in days...
Mormon, sorry man, you lose!

Humility always better

There are obviously excellent logical approaches here. The problem is, to whom are speaking? What do expect to get done? The average person not too interested (much to our chagrin, yes, but...) is definitely turned off by the tone of "admit it" etc. It just ends up coming across as fanatical, or dare I say, fundamentalist. ("This is the ultimate truth of the matter, I know it, and so should you god damnit!" or to that effect, psychologically speaking) Simple expressions of fact as researched, can stand on their own, without overt insistence on certainty. Call it persuasion - put it out there, make it as indisuputable as you can, and let it be. People will come back and sign up.

The best of the researchers when interviewed show a very calm approach, while of course presenting the logic of the matter in the way you outline. I'm thinking of Griffin, Jones, Ryan, Barrett etc. Even if you're positive you've got it nailed, the best is to keep it kind. There's no other way to go.