When it comes to 9/11 truth: RP or not RP? (Why that is not the question...)
There is an important discussion going on between two passionate communities: the 9/11 truth movement's investigators and activists and Ron Paul's grassroots campaign supporters. A growing minority of people are finding themselves in the overlap of these two groups and seeing the growth of each one as well as the occasional tension between the two. I found an interesting post on the Ron Paul Press Hub, pleading with Ron Paul supporters to leave insinuations about Paul and 9/11 at a distance from the Congressman's campaign. As a person who falls into that overlap myself, I think that makes a lot of sense.
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From RonPaulPressHub.com
THE FRINGE AGENDA TRAP: Don't Fall Into It
I’ve always found it natural that people who are least trusting of government would flock to Dr. Paul. However, as we have seen in the past, anything that the general public considers to be a conspiracy theory can be used as ammunition against our favorite Congressman.
From Ronpaulforums.com in response to a member of a particular MeetUp suggesting he/she go to a 9/11 Truth MeetUp in
an attempt to find new supporters:
RE: 9-11 Truth meeting - This needs to be kept SEPARATE from Ron Paul
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007
The word has come down from Headquarters that the Ron Paul campaign is asking EVERYONE to stay clear of distributing
any materials or displaying any signs that could be construed as fringe, radical or in any way outside the mainstream.
Ron Paul’s run for the presidency is not the appropriate venue for promoting any of the controversial theories that are
circulating these days. Such actions will only assure that Ron Paul is soundly defeated. Whether we like it or not, he
absolutely must attract the mainstream to win. Let’s get him elected first; we can “educate” the mainstream later.
The campaign leaders have asked that all signs contain fairly generic messages. As an example of how even the most
well-intentioned supporter can cause controversy, someone had a sign that said “Ron Paul is against immigration”. That is
simply not true. No doubt, the follower meant he was against the latest immigration “legislation”…which is true. But, people
reading the sign would misinterpret it. And, Ron Paul does not want us stating things that are not representative of his
platform. So please, let’s keep this simple and totally non-controversial. Otherwise we will actually be doing Hillary and Rudy
a very big favor.
One more thing, I think many of us, me included are new to this political process. We have never before found a candidate
that we loved enough to donate to, never mind work for. This is a particularly difficult problem when newbies like us are
working for a candidate who is not given fair treatment by the press and who is being described as “fringe” to the blindly
obedient public. It makes us angry; even outraged at the unfairness of the process.
We must be smart; we must quell the urge to show indignation. We must represent ourselves exactly as Dr. Paul
represents himself; in a calm, intelligent and courteous manner. Even if we do not win the hearts of the voters we talk to; we
will have their respect and if they respect us; they will respect Ron Paul.. maybe even enough to listen to him speak. That’s
the best we can ask for.. the willingness of the people we meet to just listen to Ron Paul speak.
Ron Paul can sell himself; his message resonates in the hearts and minds of the American people. The irony is, the
grassroots movement is the only way Ron Paul can get elected; and it also contains elements which are most likely to
derail his campaign. Ron Paul’s opponents know this; they want nothing more than to have us all out there with “911 was an
inside job” signs. Nothing would turn the general public off more. If you participate in other activism it is crucial you keep it
separate. Do not even bring it up at Ron Paul meetings.
Let us remember Howard Dean who was storming the country in his bid for the presidency only to be totally derailed over
one overzealous comment that the news used to make him look like a radical. Let’s not let this happen to our beloved Ron
Paul.
Meg
KC
I don’t know if the campaign did indeed send this message out, however, I whole-heartedly agree with it.
Check your agenda at the door, and help introduce mainstream America to Ron Paul’s message of liberty.
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I couldn't agree more. There are good reasons to demand a new investigation, and there are good reason to support Ron Paul. But for the moment, whether or not those paths will one day intersect, we can't do both in the same place and at the same time... at least not yet.
-"Johnny"
*Everything You Should Know About the 9/11 Truth Movement*
**Ron Paul 2008: Guide to a Modern Statesman**
- JohnnyOrlowskawitz's blog
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we had a discussion about
we had a discussion about this in a thread a couple of weeks ago, i wish i remembered which one it was. the gist of it for me was this-i support Ron Paul for president but WILL NOT tone down my 9/11 activism for him or anybody else. thats what "they" would want you to do. to tone it down until after the election that Paul has no chance of winning anyway. cant slow us down.......
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
Separate on the battlefield...
... unified in objective.
My support for Ron Paul IS NOT for "Ron Paul", yet is far more about the philosophy he espouses to strike the roots of long standing economic and monetary inequity. Remember that this is LOOONG predating 9/11. His campaign seems to be asking of those who've sacrificed so much investigating 9/11, simply not to juxtapose these issues. I agree, that these two items combined are immensely MORE confusing and thus risk repelling more people than attracting.
There is no need to join these items at the hip. In fact, I WOULD likewise advise keeping them largely separate for the foreseeable future. In that, we make a better PINCER, than PLOW.
Later, at a time and place selected by providence only reachable along a road of patience and just means... should we witness a union of these items. Remember, these two items exist at near opposite ends of a chronological spectrum of corruption. When trying to join these two things into a single article, paragraph or even sentence... you're asking the novice listener to take a whiplash ride on a breakneck roller-coaster running off the tracks... many would refuse even a free ticket to ride, let alone one that might cost heaps of unenjoyable effort.
Unlike the fasces model which only gains and holds strength from bundling weaker twigs together... Ron Paul stands alone as a potent and impressive force UNBOUND by entangling relations. So too, the 9/11 Studies, Investigation and Justice movements.
We can wave hello to each other from opposite flanks of the battle field... to better burn the bundle of twigs, from both ends.
Understand?
same here, i actually
same here, i actually disagree with Paul on quite a few things but on the big issues that matter right now he gets it right. and yes, striking the root of our corrupt economic system is arguably as important as 9/11 truth. i guess my main argument is that he really does have no chance, i know its not popular to point that out but its sadly very true, and since thats the case there is indeed no point in toning down the 9/11 activism around Paul's campaign. a huge chunk of his support is from the 9/11 truth community. he needs to deal with that. and sadly, i see his way of dealing with it was to distance himself and to recommend the 9/11 Commission Report to Rudy. i honestly just dont see any reason why we shouldnt take advantage of any air time we can get, even if that includes taking advantage of Paul's limited amount of time on the soapbox.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
Conversely...
Would you want to risk the immense efforts of the 9/11 truth movement, by trying to bind it to ANY particular candidate or politician? That smallish bit of extra airtime WILL come at a price, if as you say Ron Paul only goes so far. Then what? We'll then have to invest painful amounts of additional time and effort in the divorce proceedings. I see no need trying to ride his very short coattail... AT ALL. In fact... I think he's asking us to get off his tails so that he can move faster, simultaneously as 9/11 Justice need NOT rely upon him either.
I like Ron Paul BECAUSE he is threatening the fasces from its weakest structural underpinnings of fiat currency, thuggish taxation methods and corporate incest.
I like 9/11 justice seekers, for striking at the bastards' tools of modern fear and accelerated mind-fuckery.
I like Cindy for her innocent quest to end war, period.
I like Alex for his much needed brand of fire and brimstone.
I like Steven for his calming appeals to scientific method.
I like Fetzer (caugh), for his antagonistic style which MOSTLY only spurs us to better our arguments.
I like George, maybe for his inept willingness, to be the one highlighting that which is most detrimental to civilization.
No chance in hell I would wish or attempt to bundle such into a fasces to wield for 'my cause'. If you, I, or We remain fluid, unbound and decentralized ... we stand a far better chance of routing a great multiplicity of corruption.
Save the handshakes and deep embracing for the After-Battle party. Yet never stop communicating across different interests, tactics and strategies... and never forget that kind of special manifestation of Warrior that can be forged in the mind of a genuine peace seeker, when a leader such as Paul TRUSTS us enough to not try and control us from his own platform.
By his not trying to steer us in ANY direction other-then his wish that we not stand BEHIND him, by many measures I see his expression of trust in our cause, rather than an expression of revulsion to it. I see him setting us free, rather than asking that we fall in ranks behind him.
Such is my opinion.
how is it risking OUR efforts?
im not talking about binding it, im talking about taking advantage of every media oppurtunity we have to push the cause of 9/11 truth awareness. Paul is not going to slow me down in any way in this. you admit he has a small coattail, can you admit that he has no chance of winning in our current broken system? lets be realistic about this. and i dont think he is revulsed by our cause, but its painfully clear that he believes in the official story to a very large degree, enough so to call it blowback, issue a statement almost condemning us and recommending the official report to Rudy. i know much of that is probably Paul playing the game of politics but in my humble opinion since Paul has no shot at winning we should not slow down or tone down the 9/11 activism in any way for any candidate or anyone else. im not saying tie Ron Paul to 9/11 truth, its obvious to me that he has no interest in the subject, im just saying that the way some of these Paul supporters are telling us to basically go away is wrong. if i want to go to a Ron Paul campaign event with a 9/11 truth sign im going to. its not going to say Ron Paul is a truther or anything like that, but im going to be there. anyway, much respect Erin, ive always found your posts to be informative and interesting.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
and i shouldnt say he has no
and i shouldnt say he has no interest, i appreciate his clear call for a new investigation and i hope he makes the same call during a debate or on national television at some point.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
How can you say Ron Paul has
How can you say Ron Paul has no chance in winning? Seriously?
All the man has to do is speak to the people and he gives them hope in America again, whether they disagree or not.
We are living in a very interesting time in human history - and this chapter isn't written yet.
A sure fire way to win any conflict is to convince your opponent that they have lost.
i agree, if given a fair
i agree, if given a fair shake by the media and the elites in this country he would be making some major noise right now and likely be a front-runner. the reason he isnt a front-runner isnt because he doesnt give people hope who actually get to hear him speak for more than 2 minutes.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
if you dont know anything
if you dont know anything about electoral politics in this country and you honestly think Paul has a chance of winning, then i would understand wanting to tone down the 9/11 talk. but considering the reality of the situation it would be a mistake and ultimately pointless.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
Why be a truther with that spirit
How can you say that it's basically a waste of time to vote Ron Paul because he has no chance of winning. First of all I do not vote for the win or lose candidate. A vote is a voice and shows where I stand. Secondly, how can you be a part of a movement that literally has everything against it as far as support from media, major politicians, etc. begging the 9/11 truthers to quit, and we don't, and share this idea it's pointless to fight you're gonna lose. Well whether we win or lose. Whether it's rigged, illegitimate, illegal, or what have you, we have an opportunity and duty to ourselves our country to let our voice be heard. Voting influences Politicians whether your person wins or not. Strength in numbers. If they see an overwhelming majority of voters sharing the ideologies of Ron Paul they will have no choice but to address it. Grow a backbone, stand up because you're mad as hell and you aren't going to take it anymore. Don't fall back because they tell you too. Stand up and move forward damn it. How can you stand up for anything with the attitude it's a waste of time you're gonna lose. Do you see the support in each state the 9/11 community has. Almost every state made this web page for activism. If that were all generated towards our candidate Ron Paul then yes he could have a chance to win some major states. 9/11 truth & Ron Paul Revolution sound great to me!
i DID NOT say it was a waste
i DID NOT say it was a waste of time to vote for and promote Ron Paul, i said that its a waste of time to curb our 9/11 activism in the hopes of helping Ron Paul. Ron Paul's supporters are asking us to "tone it down" and i say thats bullshit. thats all. dont you fucking tell me to grow a backbone if you cant comprehend what im typing. "they" would love for us to "tone it down" on 9/11 and some of Paul's supporters are actually buying into that shit. sorry, not me. do you even know what the electoral college is? i want Paul to win, absolutely i do but im not an idiot.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
Not "tone it down on 9/11"...
Just don't drive around in a truck yelling "9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB...RON PAUL REVOLUTION!". Keep going, as strong as you have been, but if you do support Ron Paul just don't push Paul and 9/11 at the same time. Both are important, both are making headway, both are certainly related, but better they grow independently than die a common death.
-"Johnny"
9/11 Truth, as incredibly vital as it is...
...is a symptom of bigger systemic corruption: the cancers on America that are the M-I-C, the CIA, the Fed.....Ron Paul promises to attack and dismantle all of those....for that, he has my support, regardless of how publicly supportive he is of 9/11 Truth at the moment.....
I feel it would be political suicide for him at this point to lead with 9/11 Truth. The "Corporate Intelligence Agency" Faux Media would feast on him, they're already trying....Later on, if his campaign peaks with no nomination in sight, I would be all for pressuring him for a more vocal stance....but only when he has nothing to lose....
My only problem with 9/11 Truthers being at Paul rallies is that it will turn off the unaware who might be Paul supporters without our high-profile (uneeded, IMO) presence at his events....we should keep our 9/11 Truth powder dry for confronting & embarrassing the other candidates who are all (Kucinich and Gravel possibly excepted) part of the system/problem, again IMO. We all have plenty of opportunities to further public outrage over the real criminals behind 9/11 without prematurely damaging Paul's campaign.
Besides, his last filmed statement (on another thread) in response to a direct queston was pretty damned good....read between the lines, people.....he's on our side.....
we basically only disagree
we basically only disagree about when he would have nothing to lose. i think that time is now and since hes still technically in the race the media would be forced to cover him if he came out forceful in some way about 9/11, even if its just a call for a new investigation with no specifics or speculation. i think its false hope right now and he has no chance, thats why im all about pressuring him to be more vocal about calling for a new investigation and all about taking advantage of his airtime to help 9/11 truth awareness. he doesnt need to call 9/11 an inside job but his supporters need to understand that 9/11 truth will still be here when Ron Paul loses and goes back to Texas and no longer has a media platform. i know people hate to hear that, but we need to think about how we are gonna use this to our advantage and toning it down is not the way in my opinion. again, we dont have to tie Paul to 9/11 truth or confront him about it, but there is no reason to put the 9/11 truth shirts and signs away for him. he is on our side, i believe that too, but hes not going to be president so he has no sway on there being a new investigation unless hes vocal about that right now while he has a bit of a platform. that statement was a start, i hope we see more and i hope Paul's non-9/11 truth supporters can understand that we are on their side as well.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
A Quick Synopsis...
It's clear this issue evokes strong and divergent responses:
1. If you think Ron Paul has a chance of winning in 2008, you respect his candidacy enough to hold off on exploiting it as a tool for 9/11 activism.
2. If you think RP has little chance of winning in 2008, but you hold that a vote is a precious expression of democratic intent, you might respect his candidacy enough to hold off as well.
On the other hand...
3. If you think 9/11 Truth is much bigger than RP, AND, you don't see RP picking up the cause with much fervor, you would take every chance to use his campaign as a vehicle to advance 9/11 truth.
4. If you think campaign politics are vital, but RP just CAN'T win, you also don't see a problem using his campaign.
I'm bothered by the idea that 9/11 should just be waiting to 'pounce' on some candidates' campaign to springboard their concerns into the public debate. Ron Paul's a person. 9/11 is big, but it's not the only thing and it's not the only way that things might move in this country. But...movement is good on all fronts. I very much liked the fasces/anti-fasces comment. It captured the point well: You don't have to STOP anything for Ron Paul's campaign, just fervently pursue the goals of 9/11 truth and/or the goals of liberty as promoted by RP...JUST NOT AT THE SAME TIME. There is a powerful fringe movement and a vast and undecided mainstream with both 9/11 and RP. Anyone who forgets that is not being 'dedicated' and independent but a little naive. Ron Paul supporters should be able to trust that 9/11 won't spoil a potentially historical election, and 9/11 truth supporters shouldn't have to 'hide' their views from the public. But as the author was trying to say, it's ok to KEEP THE TWO SEPARATE for now.
-"Johnny"
I agree 100% - 9/11 is BIG
I agree 100% - 9/11 is BIG and our best chance of exposing the power behind the scenes for what it is, but it does not end with 9/11. Riping out the engine (The FED) would be a crushing blow to the unholy alliance between corrupt Government/Corporations. To sacrifice one movement for another is not strategically sound. Attack on all fronts, and Ron Paul's campaign has the potential to stop these bastards in their tracks.
If you don't think he can win, then you have fallen for lie that MSM alone can shape public opinion, fuck them.
The FED is the central linchpin to enslaving us all.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.2755:
Ron Paul is a statesmen, and is the closest thing to the likes of Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson this country has ever seen. The similarities are eerie :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Bank_of_the_United_States - Thomas Jefferson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bank_of_the_United_States - Andrew Jackson
--
"In his message on the veto of the bank Jackson used language which appeared to resonate mostly with the common man of the country, while attacking the predominantly rich or foreign stockholders of the current bank. For instance, he explained, "It appears that more than a fourth part of the stock is held by foreigners and the residue is held by a few hundred of our own citizens, chiefly of the richest class. For their benefit does this act exclude the whole American people ... It is but justice and good policy, as far as the nature of this case will admit, to confine our favors to our own fellow-citizens."
im sorry imgstacke, but it
im sorry imgstacke, but it has nothing to do with the MSM shaping my opinion. check my profile, i was a media activist before i was a 9/11 activist and pride myself on understanding our media. history and our corrupt system guarantees that Ron Paul has no chance of winning. i really am gonna hate having to say i told you so to everyone around here, i swear i am, but if you knew how our electoral process worked you would understand why i say he has no chance. that does NOT mean we should stop supporting him it just means that 9/11 truth will not ruin his chances at getting elected. sadly thats already been taken care of. there is no sacrifice here.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
I do understand how the
I do understand how the electoral system works, and cannot believe the delegates would go against the will of the people (at the republican convention), if he were to win the primaries. I just can't see that happening, the outrage would be deafening.
Ron Paul's message is infectious, the MSM be damned.
i think if Paul ever made it
i think if Paul ever made it that far that they indeed would, hes that much of a threat. but i dont anticipate him making it that far anyway. hes at %2 right now. im sorry if i come off as negative, i know i probably do but i strongly disagree with curbing 9/11 activism in hopes of helping a politician with no realistic chance, i believe we should take every oppurtunity we can.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
I see and respect your point
I see and respect your point of view Chris. But I do disagree with cannibalizing one movement (Ron Paul) for another (9/11 Truth) when they are both moving toward a common goal. Getting our country back from criminals.
and i respect your opinion
and i respect your opinion but i respectfully disagree that 9/11 truth is in danger of devouring Ron Paul or vice versa.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
Chris. You're right, but...
Isn't the whole point of this enterprise to CHANGE that--to redefine (or really, reclaim) the political process, to revamp and redouble our media efforts so we one day have an 'MSM' that is active and accountable, and to re-awaken the conviction in people that they are the democracy not just pawns in it. I see what you're saying as somewhat realistic (at least an accurate description of how things HAVE been), but if we're not here to change things, then what's the point?
-"Johnny"