Flight 77 - What Hit the Light Poles?

UPDATE: The person who originally obtained the animation below has sent in some scans to help authenticate things on his end. Attached find a scan of his letter from NTSB in answer to his FOIA request and a scan of the mailer sent to him in the UK. Recently, 911myths.com posted some acquired FOIA data. Maybe the trick is to do all FOIA requests from the UK. Get busy UK911Truthers! See attachments at bottom. I blurred the signature of the NTSB employee, the person who submitted these scans blocked his name and address.

If this animation is a true account of the final moments (minus impact) of Flight 77, why is it too high to clip any light poles? You can see the roadway down below. WAY down below. When compared with the CCTV frames that depict "something" hitting the Pentagon, why does this animation not reconcile with the strictly horizontal approach captured by the security camera?

Which is incorrect? This animation, apparently supplied by NTSB or the security camera? Here are some screen caps to ponder;

FOIA Letter CUT-911blogger.jpg78.71 KB
FOIA EnvelopeCUT-911blogger.jpg139.53 KB


Could it have hit the light poles after the tape ends?

Why does the tape end?

I know...

...after the wings folded back to fit through the hole in the Pentagon, they reached out and kindly slapped a few poles down so this would all make sense...yes, it's all coming together nicely. (whew)

I don't think so. The plane

I don't think so. The plane is almost exactly above the road (highway?) and the angle is steep, but not steep enough.

Why does the tape end? I don't know.

why is the time 13.24

why is the time 13.24 (1:30pm) eastern time on the video

wasnt the pentagon struck at 9:24

Les Jamieson on the Alex Jones show right now (1:10 EST)

http://stream2.nfowars.net (works in Itunes)

who cares?

Everytime this guy opens his mouth he embarasses the movement.

Les Jamieson is not OK

Les Jamieson is one of the most "incompetent" leaders in the entire movement. Funny how he single handedly controls NY 9/11 Truth and manages to frustrate and alienate nearly all reasonable, skilled, respectable participants.

He is very good at mediocrity. It seems to be his specialty.

He has a "blank" persona; he doesn't seem to mean or feel anything he says. He lacks taste and good judgement. But oh, is he reliable and "dedicated." And non-offensive.

He does have a following and people are always quick to jump in and defend him. I guess some people just really need that fake daddy figure to feel safe.


This is the kind of stuff Jamieson has been known to distribute:

International Truth Movement

wow, that's amazing

I can't wait to hear the explanation for this from the official govt spokespeople (shills).

Another blogger writes...

"NctrnlBst," a blogger from Hawaii writes today: Loose Change 9/11 Conspiracy Video

I was lurking around the internet, when I came across this video [Loose Change]. All that I have to say is WOW!

Not many people know this, but I had lost a friend in 9/11, and because of that, I avoid the topic completely. However, for some reason, I started watching this video, and couldn't stop. It's been around for a while, and perhaps you've seen their first edition. If by chance you haven't seen this yet, I suggest that you get comfortable, and check it out...

As enthralling as the video was, I personally do not think that there was a conspiracy as the video claims. However, it did broaden my perspective on 9/11, and I do feel tht it is worth mentioning. I hope that after going through all of the information presented by Loose Change, and the counter points that you too will have a broader view of 9/11.

Just scratched the surface

.........Before you come to your conclusion.You are lacking about 80 hours of internet research my friend.
Although i commend you for having an open mind,and after further researching this if you still feel the same way...I can say at least i respect you.Unlike those that argue us without looking at our side.
Look the site over.....st911.org,and check the video section out here at 911 blogger.

I'm Not That Blogger


I just thought I would let you know I am not that blogger who wrote about Loose Change. I just found his/her blog on the internet and posted it here, hoping people would go there and provide him/her exactly the sort of encouragement you wrote above.

I'm a full-fledged 9/11 Truther.

What is the end result of this?

1) Approx where is the plane when the recorder stops?

2) Is the plane on a trajectory to hit the building?

3) If yes to #2, about which floor is it aiming at?

4) What's the likelyhood this recorder has been fabricated by the gov't?

I couldn't find this animation at the NTSB site

so I'd like to know the source

however, check out this report;

look at the loop fligh 77 does at the end. It's totally different than the official loop where the plane comes over the pentagon than swoops around it-- the plane here goes off on a wild-goose chase apparently (check page 5).


This video was delivered to a truther via FOIA and analysed by the FDR team @ the Loose Change forums.

Did they post an analysis?

Got link, dude? It would be good to see.

No formal analysis has been


No formal analysis has been released yet, though one is expected. The work is being done in a separate password protected forum, so no link, sorry.

Edit: If you are a member of the LC forums, PM JohnDoeX and you'll probably be granted access.


Source as important as data

I see this problem again and again here. This video alone is nothing but a glorified cartoon. If it was delivered to someone via FOIA, then the FOIA paperwork is every bit as important as the video. Show us the FOIA paperwork!

No-source information is worthless.


wasn't there a story about a guy who helped out that day and got some form of cancer due to what he thinks might be depleted uranium. he claims to have watched with other people a drone circling for a while before descending on the pentagon.

Daniel Ellsburg?

I think his name was Daniel Ellsburg? I think? I was very intrigued when I heard what he had to say on the Alex Jones show... I'd like to hear more from him...

“No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear.” ~Edmund Burke

Aa77 Hijacker Timeline

Aa77 Hijacker Timeline, from the FDR Research Team (Loose Change Forum)

"The first change of heading select to start the aircraft back toward the pentagon is at 12:54:11 according to the cvs file.

That means it took Hani Hanjour a little over 3 minutes to bust into the cockpit, point a boxcutter at Charles Burlingame and told him and the First Officer to go to the back of the aircraft. Charles Burlingame gave up his airplane in a little over 3 minutes to a hijacker with a boxcutter. Charles Burlingame..a 6'5 Military trained Captain, trained in Anti-Terrorism..."

Dude, Hani had a BOXCUTTER

They're sharp. No Captain, military-trained or not, is built to withstand being touched by one of those. Enough with the crazy talk!

"Among the 'spider-man' skeptics are those who claim that no human can shoot web and stick to walls... They conveniently ignore the fact that he was bitten by a radioactive spider."

Daily Bugle editorial debunking the claims of spider-man deniers


The only way I can image a few guys taking over an airplane with boxcutters is if they each grabbed one small, weaker person and threatened to cut their throat if everyone else didn't do what they said. Maybe they would have to slit one person's throat to make a point. Still, I find it hard to believe that some of the bigger, stronger passengers would not have tackled the hijackers and beat the shit out of them.

Slicing Through the Crap

Thanks, Valis. I have to believe that Burlingame knew something of the martial arts, such as aikido, karate, and more. He was a TopGun and into fitness. If there were signs and sounds of forced entry and no disabling "gas" was used, Burlingame could have been cut, but Hanjour would have been missing a trachea.

REQUEST! anybody get Alex Jones show?

Pat Buchanan

Alex welcomes Patrick Buchanan, an American author, syndicated columnist, and television commentator. He ran in the 2000 presidential election on the Reform Party ticket. He is also one of the founding editors and main contributors to The American Conservative magazine and a regular commentator on cable news station MSNBC and The McLaughlin Group news program.


i HAVE to hear this. Pat Buchanan is insane, hes a jackass, but i gotta say, i respect him more than i respect most republicans(which isnt saying much, but at least Buchanan can form his own opinions sometimes.he was the only conservative to scold Israel in any way for Lebanon) and would LOVE to hear this show.im afraid Alex wont ask him about 9/11, but even still it would be nice to here Buchanan rip the neocons like he usually has been lately. anybody here know where i can get Alex Jones radio shows the day of or day after?


I just hope they don't sit

I just hope they don't sit around and gay-bash. Say what you want, but Buchanan HATES the neocon cabal. Neocons respond that he is an anti-semite. Look at this material, this is great (other than the official line on 9/11, of course):

In his inaugural address, Mr. Bush calls 9/11 the day “when freedom came under attack.” This is sophomoric. Osama did not send fanatics to ram planes into the World Trade Center because he hates the Bill of Rights. He sent the terrorists here because he hates our presence and policies in the Middle East. He did it for the same reason FLN rebels blew up cafes in Paris and Hamas suicide bombers blow up pizza parlors in Jerusalem.


America “goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy,” said John Quincy Adams, “She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.” Under the tutelage of Jacobins who call themselves idealists, Bush has repudiated this wise core doctrine of U.S. foreign policy to embrace Wilsonian interventionism in the internal affairs of every autocratic regime on earth. We are going to democratize the world and abolish tyranny.

Giddy with excitement, the neocons are falling all over one another to hail the president. They are not conservatives at all. They are anti-conservatives, and their crusade for democracy will end as did Wilson’s, in disillusionment for the president and tragedy for this country.

true meanings in Bush statements

>>>In his inaugural address, Mr. Bush calls 9/11 the >>day “when >>freedom came under attack"

I bet this is more than just a coincidence. There are a whole lot of such remarks by Bush, that can be interpreted in the way of 9/11 truth just as well as the OV. Bush said on 9/11 that it was "an attack on freedom itself", and we all know how true this is when you think about the rollback of civil liberties post-9/11.
In short, there is people that have trouble LYING, and Bush is one of them. They can do it , do in some cases (GWB: "Saddam has WMD", Clinton: "i did not have...with..."), but avoid it. Kind of a stealth mode passing the lie detectors undetected.

i would LOVE to know who was

i would LOVE to know who was really writing Bushs speeches after 9/11. notice how un-Bush like they are, how articulate and seemingly deep they are. the speech at the U.N. where he cautions all of the world leaders and watching world media to "never tolerate outrageous conspiracy thoeries that seek to shift blame blah blah blah" proves that his speeches were more carefully layed out than ever.that was a VERY clear warning. i would LOVE to know who got that "never tolerate conspiracy theories" line in there.

9/11 speeches part of the planning

The careful speeches show how "prepared" in deed the neocons were for this attack. The script had been written all along.
Then after Bush gives his brilliant War On Terror speeches, compare it to what b.s. he tells with regard to everything else.

The effect of people avoiding lies is also obvious when they're put under oath in court. First they tell everything possible, true or lie, but put someone under oath, and precisely such strange, double-sided things are coming out of their mouth.

Struggling to make sense of this

How can they argue molten aluminum exists from planes they say didn't?

you need to understand what's happening here

Jones' scientific methods are flawed. They're not scientific.

Jones is setting us up for a fall. A big fall. This is about to be exposed big time. Jones is a fraud. Possibly a plant.

that, or Morgan Reynolds is the plant.

who is more likely to be the plant? the movement is getting a LOT of steam lately, in fact, just as we are hitting the MSM(if only in a combative and condescending way thus far), Reynolds comes out in favor of the no plane theory. the same Morgan Reynolds that worked in the belly of the beast that is the Bush administration. then we have Steven Jones, who as far as i know, has no direct ties to the Bush administration. my money is on Morgan Reynolds......

if people in this country aren't smart enough to actually...

look at the evidence, if people can't see how faulty Jones' work is after reading R/Ws comments, if people need to trust someone before believing the simple common sense they say, then we are all screwed.

This country has really been dumbed down.

Look at the information! Forget who wrote it. Just use common sense. Jones' analysis is not scientific. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see this.


btw, Judy Wood is changing from the NPT to the NALT (No airline crash theory).

Wood stresses the scientific method: find out WHAT happened before figuring HOW is happened.

Jones' use of that little animated gif (from www.imageshack.us!) to prove deceleration.. my God... he calls that data? Please wake up everybody

and what do you call data?

Reynolds has given NOTHING but wild speculation and idiots like you call it scientific data.

Get a grip

Having No airliner theory

Having No airliner theory (NALT), No Plane theory, (NPT), mininukes, CGI, holograms, scalar weapons, vaporized matter, etc.

How does this help the 9/11 Truth movement?

It doesn't and you know it.


probably, almost certainly, he's a plant

what happened with the aluminum experiments??

Dr Wood and her ST911-member student Michael Zebuhr did experiments on molten aluminum using the scientific method. Steven Jones did experiments using faulty techniques. What happened? Zebuhr was murdered, Wood was fired, and Jones got on C-SPAN. That's what happened.

We are being set up for a fall - Jones analysis is faulty and unscientific.

why would Wood do

why would Wood do experiments on molten aluminum from planes she now says were never at the World Trade Center?

See the fault in that logic?

it's called the scientific method


claiming the existence of

claiming the existence of material from something that you say never existed is not called the scientific method, it's called lunacy.

CGI planes give off molten aluminum? LOL!

Man is this the best disinfo people can come up with? They most be nervous

this reminds me of boxcutter believers ignoring

other evidence.

If you're gonna use your reasoning to disprove what they say, then it's obivious your goal is to believe Jones at all costs

Facts and simple logic

Facts and simple logic disprove the contention presented in the two Reynolds-Wood papers, namely that you have no planes at the towers and then molten aluminum from those nonexistent planes pouring out of the towers.

Nothing will take away from those simple facts.


How do they assume it's aluminum, and why do they assume an airplane is the only source for what we see?


Logic doesn't really factor into this "no planes" and "no plane hit the tower, but it's aluminum from the plane that hit the tower" situation LOL

I felt compelled to reply to

I felt compelled to reply to myself, because this line that I wrote is just too funny.

""no plane hit the tower, but it's aluminum from the plane that hit the tower""

Maybe it was Reynolds Wrap

Hey Ø®£Z maybe it was Morgan Reynolds Wrap..LOL I haven't read all the comments yet, but to all of those who call Us plane huggers, there is a question about that NPT which kept nagging Me today;If the video was faked,then it would show the plane going into the building with no deceleration,no crumpling of the body,it would show exactly what it shows.
In My opinion,the video was faked,but to only hide a drone and make it appear as if a 767 hit the Trade Towers. As far as no planes go,I don't buy that theory.On the one hand there is the profile of a plane on the one tower,and it is smaller than a 767.But is it a drone plane imprint? Could be.The traumatized part of the tower has the imprint going in,whereas if there was no plane,but explosives planted in this area,then it would be shown as blown out. It appeared to Me as pushed in,so something crashed into it. I don't think trying to find the vertical stabilizer imprint is a big deal, because that may have had a downward crumple effect. These guys pushing the NPT have a real steep hill to get up here.

It's called an experiment

and it wasn't to test if there was a plane there anyway. Jones claimed the yellow molten stuff had to be steel, Wood said it could theoretically have been molten aluminum (there was aluminum in the WTC cladding btw). Jones was insisting it was molten steel. Wood just did an experiment to show that Al glows.

I see your point, but the expt was not to show whether a plane was there or not.

Besides, Jones SAYS there was a plane there-- so BY JONES THINKING, the molten stuff could have been Al.



obviously BY JONES THINKING, the molten metal could have been aluminum. That is why he conducted experiments to see if it was aluminum or not.

But Wood & Reynolds are arguing for an impossible situation,

CGI planes = molten aluminum.

And they are not talking about that molten medal being from the WTC cladding you know that.

CGI planes = molten aluminum.


Its funny to see him try to

Its funny to see him try to logically make sense of that HUGE disconnect.

so sad... to watch, but like a car wreck, you have to take a peek.

wood and reynolds were NOT arguing that CGI planes made molten

Aluminum. You know that.

Also, a CGI plane on TV does not mean no plane hit the wtc at all. It's just not clear WHAT hit the WTC.

Finally, please consider that Wood may have done the molten Al expt before even thinkign about no plane at the wtc.

Jones only tested the molten Al after Wood did.

facts don't allow you to

facts don't allow you to hold both of those positions.

If Wood had done expirments and determined that it was aluminum pouring out the side of the building, she should be ripping into Reynolds and Nico Haupt, etc. for still propagating the No Plane Theory. Its very simple. You would never author a paper propagating No Plane Theory, which both these articles clearly are doing, and then say you are sure molten aluminum is pouring out the building, like the government contends.

Actually didn't...

Jones do tests with molten Aluminum in order to disprove someone else's claim of a possible thermite reaction caused by melted plane+rusty steel? I seenk so! So why did Wood start playing with aluminum? And, can you cite her findings?


"Among the 'spider-man' skeptics are those who claim that no human can shoot web and stick to walls... They conveniently ignore the fact that he was bitten by a radioactive spider."

Daily Bugle editorial debunking the claims of spider-man deniers


from Dr Wood:

"The issue is not about planes vs. no planes. The issue is about faulty science. Why does a physics prof. use a bogus argument that any high school physics teacher would know the answer to? Michael and I merely demonstrated this phenomenon in February for the purpose of educating Steve. He didn't want to be educated. He wanted to deny what we demonstrated. I do not know why this is so important to him, but it apparently is."

People need to take their blindfolds off and look at the data!

so Zebuhr was murdered over

so Zebuhr was murdered over the molten metal coming out of the towers? Because it would endanger Jones' work? LOL.

You do realize that the molten metal you see pouring out of the tower isn't the essential element of Jones' work, correct? That it's not a part of the "Why indeed..." paper, right?

If it is molten iron, its just another element supporting the hypothesis. This is not hard to understand.


The fact is

whether it was molten Iron or molten Aluminum (glowing red hot) is a moot point because the only thing that could have gotten ANY metal that hot in those small areas is Thermate or something very similar.

Clearly planes hit the towers and only a complete tard would say otherwise, clearly the towers were taken down with controlled demolition which whether you ignorantly believe the NPT or not everyone still agrees on that.

So the NPT is either a joke or a disinfo ploy.

But which ever it is it doesn't make ANY difference at all so best thing to do is drop the BS and concentrate on what does make a difference.

Do elaborate on Jones' faulty scientific method:

And who's to say they're not two sides of the same disinfo coin? Who cares anyway? There are things that make sense and things that don't. I've read a bunch of the sites yoiu all have linked to and have found nothing convincing, or even suggestive or intriguing. Just a lot of artful BS. Nice try shills, but... no.

"Among the 'spider-man' skeptics are those who claim that no human can shoot web and stick to walls... They conveniently ignore the fact that he was bitten by a radioactive spider."

Daily Bugle editorial debunking the claims of spider-man deniers

summarize faulty techniques?

Can you summarize and explain what techniques used by Jones were unscientific?

Jones' work is scientifically sound

Prof Jones' work is very, very good. I am very familiar with his work. I am sick of seeing disinformation about him here.

CB_Brooklyn, you are making outrageous statements; what scientific credentials do you have?

I hold a Ph.D. in Physics. I'm not joking.

you have a PhD is physics?

if you really do, please explain using science, physics and common sense how an airplane with aluminum wings and tail, and plastic nose cone can slice through structural steel in the manner the "airplanes" did on 9/11. Thank you.

no, don't bother answering

no, don't bother answering him, multiple poeple have answered this question many times. CB_Brooklyn, this is why people call you disinfo, because even earlier today you asked people to explain this same question, I think you have asked it 20 times over the last few days, and had the question answered for you.

namingcalling over physics

this is sad. here is a simple question which deserves an explaination or atleast some attention, but it is just brushed aside. furthermore, now it has come to pass that anyone who questions the physics behind the impact is touted as pure disinfo. very sad.

i have asked myself this question many times and posted similar queries in the comments. this is the most recent one: http://www.911blogger.com/node/2256?page=5 there are numerous sites which have a far better breakdown on the impacts and associated images then i could do.

no one has answered this question and the only people who attempt to use velocity as the only metric of concern. why it must come to a choice between polar opposites (bouce off with no damage or penerate like butta) baffles me even more.

so many factors are at play during the 'impacts' - the strength/density of alluminum vs. steel vs. plastic composite nose, the angle of impact (nose dive into flat face), the force of impact and more importantly how that force is directed throughout the impact event. no one says the plane should 'bounce off' the building but should we be left with a cutoff plane shape? (wing detailed @ WTC2 impact hole) people who accept this reality are jumping over some big unanswered questions.

no one has explained how UA175 can slide into WTC2 without the tail breaking off (witnessed in ~4 videos), without the wings breaking off, and without any sort of deformation. those who try to explain usually rely on velocity and [conviently] forget that while the plane is sliding into the tower with little or no resistance, while the plane is slicing through perimeter columns, the plane is also busting through atleast one concrete floor section - look at the impact hole pictures to see thats a multifloor crater.

many people were willing to accept the OTC from the start [without reserve] and only when they started questioning their beliefs [and asking the right questions] did that change. why then now are some of the same people willing to forget that little lesson in exchange for another unfounded belief?

since its now become disinfo to ask simple questions regarding the physics of the impacts and resulting holes, i'll go back to burning DVDs and hoping that the dems can "impeach bush" in '07. movement ho!

I have already explained that

"if you really do, please explain using science, physics and common sense how an airplane with aluminum wings and tail, and plastic nose cone can slice through structural steel in the manner the "airplanes" did on 9/11. Thank you."

You phucking moron, over & over.

So tell me MORON, how can WATER slice through steel like butter?

How can a 2x4 slam though solid concrete?

The material dont mean a damn thing, Aluminum steel and plastic weighing 100+ tons traveling 500MPH equals one hell of a lot of Kinetic energy hitting those columns.

So if a standard playing card hit you in the neck traveling 300MPH would you be here today spewing your meaningless drivel or would you be dead?

What would do more damage to your car, you taking a solid steel bar and swinging it as hard as you could at it, OR 100 TONS of wet toilet paper dropped on it from 500' up?

You are a phucking idiot, your question has been answered a dozen times so STFU about it already.

You dont even know what science is so stop pretending you comprehend it.

The material dont mean a damn thing

The material dont mean a damn thing
right. in the above context, this statement is completely wrong. your response is littered with irrelevent comparisons, all based off your garbage believe as stated above.

how can WATER slice through steel like butter?
worthless statement and comparison. this isn't what we're discussing under WTC circumstances. if you're concerned about water, try jumping off a bridge bellyflop style-- might gain in insight or two about how 'hard' water can be.

How can a 2x4 slam though solid concrete?
this is another worthless statement and doesn't apply at all to WTC circumstances. 2x4 is a rigid, solid object where as a 767 is a glorified allumium tube. concrete? please, thats certainly not too strong. most people could sledge hammer a hole in no time.

So if a standard playing card hit you in the neck traveling 300MPH would you be here today spewing your meaningless drivel or would you be dead?
another garbage statement. the chris ferguson/playing card analogy already got shot down in another thread. you've gotten a paper cut before, right? your neck is soft, card on edge is hard, at fast velocity- slice neck. where's the relation to the issues at hand?

point being, the material DOES matter [pun intended]. all you've done is try to get away from the issues at hand which are already way too blurred from discussion.

Brooklyn's credentials...

he's Judy's cousin.

no I am not

I have no connection with her whatsoever, other than email.

and I am not a scientist.

And I a STILL waiting for a scientist to explain how an aluminum plane can slice through structural steel like that

stop the disinfo tactics.

stop the disinfo tactics. You have had several people explain that to you over the last week. Why are you continuing to try and waste anyone else's time.

take your blindfold off

and look at the data

Duh. The same way a (soft)

Duh. The same way a (soft) lead bullet can slice through a (hard) steel plate.

Maybe CB_B should learn a little science (like Newton's laws).

Stop the disinfo, please.

talk about disinfo..

you're not looking at all the data! You call your reply scientitic? You have a PhD? Huh!

The wings didn't break
The tail didn't break
The "plane" showed no signs of crushing
There were clean cuts through the steel
The "plane" disappeared completely in the building
No wreckage falling out

to name just a few

you've had this concept

you've had this concept explained to you multiple times in the past week. If you don't accept the physics concept, fine. But stop asking the same question over and over that has been answered.

I don't buy your claim of having a PhD in physics

unless you eat lots of crackerjacks.

Dr Wood replied to your post:

The plane and columns are a different proportion and relative size.

A tiny soft bullet and a big steel plate is not like a big soft plane and spaced out (and smaller) steel columns. extreme example: a metal bullet shoots through a nerf ball (or rubber ball), but a rubber bullet doesn't shoot through a steel ball.

A soft bullet would go splat as it hit a hard steel plate. So, initially, the force is focused, then it spreads out. So, you get an impact damage. But, I'll bet the steel plate holds up better than the soft lead bullet. ;-)

(That was a rush reply)

CB, Thanks for confirming


Thanks for confirming the fact that Judy Wood is now on board the No Plane Theory camp, that's something everybody needs to know.

no.... she's writing a paper called..

No Airliner Plane Crash Theory, or something like that. I am not an official representative of her. No one should ever assume that I am.

Anyway... if you didn't know her views on this by now, you obviously didn't read her articles.

Just like I tell boxcutter believers..... stop jumping to conclusions and trusting the government. Look at the information!

great, more

great, more distraction.

9/11 truth has a "Planes hit the towers and controlled demolition theory", a "No Planes Theory" and now a "No Airliner Plane Crash Theory". What is that, a missile cloaked by a hologram?

That is sure to keep moving the 9/11 truth movement foreward.

Son, ever see a paper straw driven through a tree in a tornado?

500 mph planes can go through an office building the same way.

no they don't pops

you're ignoring data. See all my other posts

Phuck you

All you do is deny the obvious.

Ask Wood and Reynolds if a 100ton ballon full of Kerosene traveling 500mph would smash through the side of the WTC.

A non retarded 8 year old would know it would with ease.

and thats just liquid & rubber.

Mass/weight + Velocity equals kinetic energy.

Hell you freaking jackass a 500MPH WIND would have blown the whole building down LOL. ZERO material involved just plain WIND. DOH!

That doesn't help you a bit.

Too bad your Ph.D. did not give the slightest insight into structural engineering, just as it hasn't with the liar, Steven Jones.


This comment demonstrates that you have absolutely no insights into science at all. Anyone with a PhD in physics will have had plenty of college training to be able to understand the simple Newtonian mechanics involved in structural engineering. I bet Steven Jones could learn more about structural engineering in one year than a real structural engineer could learn in 10 years. Those that argue that because someone doesn't have a degree in civil or structural engineering means they are not able to understand the scientific principles involved ini structural engineering have no grasp on science whatsoever.

Zebuhr murdered... what if...

...that's because they went into that ridiculous no-plane theory and now start attacking Jones with no reason.
Maybe they FEAR of someone?! woow... that's scary.
For example J.Wood billard balls argument is flawed - she must know it, she is a prof
(when one ball hits other and stops, the other starts moving with the speed of the first one, - momentum is conserved
some energy is consumed for pulverization and bringing down lower floors but that's completely DIFFERENT story!).
WHY does she produce such disinfo? I am really scared for them and other researchers.

CB_Brooklyn - who are you? You keep flooding this forum with your posts bringing no new data. Sit down calmly
and try to prove something, find something new.
Aluminium might glow if constantly heated to a tempratures far over melting point.
When it pours it cools down and become silver - that's not what we observe at WTC.

Jones is authentic

first and foremost i only listen to three or four people
1.) J. Hoffman
2.) J. Gold
3.) S. Jones
4.) D.R. Griffin
5.) Alex Jones * (For some stuff only)

Morgan, Fetzer, Wood, etc are hurting us. How come we cant have any NON-COOOK scholars...that is why i dont even promote st911.org because if someone falls into that no plane nonsense they are almost certain to "throw the baby out with the bath water"

you are making a big mistake only listening to those people

I'm not clear why you trust them only, but why don't you simply do your own research and thinking instead of listening to others?

How on earth do you KNOW Jones is authentic? Because he puts on a good show, a good act? He SEEMS honest?

Do you REALLY think thermite was the way the towers were brought down?

people want to believe Jones just like

people want to believe the boxcutter theory. No different.

It took me a long time to see Jones is a fraud myself. I turned a blind eye. Only recently, after reading his replies to Reynolds and Wood did it become obivous.

If the average American doesn't have the intelligence to see this after reading his reply to R/W paper, then we are all screwed.

You know what? We're all screwed.

Re: Thermate

I have no idea about the thermate, but there is no evidence of nukes used. So, when I see the demonstrations of thermate from some TV show (watch Dem Bruce's movie), I see similar reactions at the towers, and that is the very reaction underpinning Jones' analysis, it seems pretty reasonable to a science ignoramus like me.


I never thought I'd see my name on a list like that...

Thanks for the vote of confidence man.

Just remember... even J. Gold is not perfect. ;)

I even address myself as an everyday joe schmoe American.

You don't get much more joe schmoe than me.

However, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who cares more about this movement than me.

Unless of course you looked in the direction of a family member. ;)

"An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

Jon Gold does good work

and I look forward to him seeing that Jones is a fraud, and that his fraudeulent behavior needs to be exposed, the sooner the better

Why does Reynolds use Jane

Why does Reynolds use Jane Doe's elastic pancake analysis to dismiss near free fall of WTC. Now that is the real disinfo. Why would elastic floor collisions be used for the analysis, when inelastic collisions give much faster fall times? Jones recognizes the argument, as shown by Ross/Greening debate, is much more complex, and relates to whether the upper 16 floors falling onto one floor will be arrested or not. If not arrested then, without extremely complex calculations of the material within the towers it is extremely difficult to prove scientifically that the towers would take greater than 12-15secs to fall because there is no hard data on the makeup of the falling debris. Unless you yourself can understand the complexity of the engineering and science in Greening's and Ross's paper, maybe you should get off the anti-Jone's bandwagon. If you do understand, then why are you supporting Reynolds? Disinfo agent yourself maybe.

Nice try.

Jon Gold is the Thomas Paine of this site.

We have a LOT of intelligent people here that can read through bullshit. Tell us really the way you feel instead of trying to be divisive. Hope the government is not payin you much per post.

"A patriot must be ready to defend his country against his government" - Edward Abbey


Thomas Paine?

"An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

This guy?


"An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

required reading-Common

required reading-Common Sense by Thomas Paine. seriously Jon, you have to read it. everyone here should.

Thomas Paine? wooaaah, calm

Thomas Paine? wooaaah, calm down. Thomas Paine is a hero of mine and one of the great unsung heroes of this country.(how much do you hear about,say, Ben Franklin compared to a hero like Tom Paine? Franklin was great and all,but come on,who really birthed this country?) i'll admit, me and Jon have had arguments and slung insults back and forth before, but i would be the first to admit that he obviously cares about the issue of 9/11, and getting it exposed. he has an amazing collection of 9/11 articles and related articles and works every day at expanding that collection and helping expose people to important information. regardless of our differences, i can respect his goals just like im sure he respects mine as they are basically the same. but to compare him to Tom Paine? thats a bit far,haha.

Your name is on the proper list

Jon Gold's name is on the coward's list.

He knows why.

Poor Yizzo

Man, I feel sorry for you.

free will?

first and foremost i only listen to three or four people
1.) J. Hoffman
2.) J. Gold
3.) S. Jones
4.) D.R. Griffin
5.) Alex Jones

why did God give humans free will again?

you should probably listen a little closer to one of those three or four people (Gold): No One Knows Everything. Only Together May We Find The Truth

and my favorite (leary)

think for yourself. question authority.

Reynolds is out of his league.

Reynolds is out of his league. First of all, Jones paper isn't complete but he does address 3 issues brought up by Reynolds and demonstrates quite adequetly that Reynolds needs to do his homework. For instance, the Cold Fusion work has not been discredited as many believe but you would need to study the issue for a while. Reynolds doesn't and goes off on his rant. The molten aluminum colors are address by Jones and again Reynolds looks stupid. Likewise, for the planes hitting the towers issue. Why is Reynolds doing this? Some say he's really a Trojan Horse or dis-info agent. I think he's got a bit of a personality problem and when he doesn't understand anything right away he goes on a rampage. On the other hand, he might just be playing devils advocate because he's testing various attacks that Jones maybe subject to and wants a good defense from Jones.

"How can they argue molten

"How can they argue molten aluminum exists from planes they say didn't?"

somehow this CB guy keeps avoiding this question. Why wont you answer it? Instead you continue to attack Jones without answering this key question


from Dr Wood:

Back in early February, when Jones said that aluminum didn't glow at temperatures hot enough for iron to melt, ...I called him on it. I couldn't convince him via email, so I ran some demonstrations. (I don't call it an experiment because I already knew the answer. I just needed to convince Jones of it.) He rejected my pictures. You've seen a sample of them in that "Aluminum Glows" paper, which is one of the emails that went to and from SJ. So, when folks say that this should have been discussed in private instead of public, please tell them that it was discussed in private for over 6 months! There's
something weird about this argument!

Either that, or you're not a real truther.

If I had to choose between you & Dr. Jones, it certainly Jones until further notice.

that's b/c your too ignorant to

look at the data

A real "Truther"

The only REAL 9/11 "Truthers" are the ones none of you 9/11 Deniers have ever been able to refute.

Steven Jones, Jiom Fetzer, Reynolds and the whole sorry lot are the biggest liars since Holocaust Deniers ruled.

You guys gotta get yourselves an education.

That's the key valis, which

That's the key valis,

which exposes this crap.

They have a huge logic problem, they are arguing for no planes, and arguing for those nonexistent planes to have caused the molten metal they claim to be aluminum.

again, you have to understand what's going on

She is trying to show (to those who will listen) that Jones methods are not scientific

by arguing the existence of

by arguing the existence of material she says was not even there?

CGI planes = molten aluminum.

That is the scientific method??


what is hard to understand?

JONES says there were planes there. By Jones' logic, it could have been molten Aluminum. Wood was merely showing that Jones was not being rigorous -- she was NOT proving there were no planes.

CGI planes = molten aluminum

CGI planes = molten aluminum is not a valid hypothesis, do you understand?

that was not their hypothesis for the expt

you are being purposefully dense here

and her method is?

You know something..when i was looking at that falling ball experiment..i found it kind of easy to debunk..so i never promoted it. so when you say "scientific method" im thinking elementary style because thats how that ball scenario was

Wood constructed the billiard ball model precisely because it

was easy for people to undertsand. Get it?

She is a real engineer and could do something more complicated. She was presenting a concept that is easy for people to grasp. And indeed, the strongest evidence in my view that the towers were demolished was their extremely rapid fall time. Wood was showing the fall time was impossible withou explosives.

Inelastic billiad ball model

Inelastic billiad ball model is also simple mathematically. It gives much faster fall times. So why choose elastic collisions?

No she's not

What lazy ass did you believe claiming she is a "real engineer"?

Yes, by all means. Keep

Yes, by all means.
Keep attacking each other and the movement will go down surely,
Its just very sad no one seems to understand the old proverb anymore:
United we stand, divided we fall...
Oh well... I guess I'll have to move on from here.

That is exactly

what these assholes are doing here.

Caught in your own admission. Have you no shame?

Physics, structural engineering, chemistry, forensic science.....none of them require politics or political "movements."

Yours is just ANOTHER admission that you do not seek the truth, nor understand it, nor care for it.

Yours is just a political "movement." And, yes, like Holocaust Deniers before you, your "movement" failed before it began.

Where is Todd Beamer?

Do a Social Security Death Index search for Todd
Beamer at :


You get one record with the date of birth as SEPTEMBER
ELEVENTH, 1968 and date of death as 6/10/97.

Page 15 of "Let's Roll: Ordinary People, Extraordinary
Courage" by by Lisa Beamer & Ken Abraham
... The family settled in the small town of Flushing,
just northwest of Flint.
That's where Todd Morgan Beamer was born on November
24, 1968


Of the passengers and crew of Flight 11, 77, 175 & 93,
only 22%, 22%, 28%, 13% respectively are in the Social
Security Death Index.

Todd Beamer's marriage:
I prepared for our wedding on May 14,1994. I had
always wanted to move back East,
... Our wedding took place at the First Baptist Church
in Peekskill, New York
pg 97 "Let's Roll" by Lisa Beamer

Do a marriage license search at:


There are no marriage license records for Todd Beamer
and Lisa Brosious!

Of the 266 people that we were told died on these
jets, only 11 relatives applied for compensation!

Flight 11: of the 92 people who are listed as dying on
this flight, only 20 are listed in the SSDI (22%)

Of these 20 people, only three are on the 9-11
Compensation Fund list:

Judy Larocque
Laurie Neira
Candace Lee Williams


Flight 77: of the 64 people who are listed as dying on
this flight, only 14 are listed in the SSDI (22%)

Of these 64 people, only five on the 9-11 Compensation
Fund list:

William Caswell
Eddie Dillard
Ian Gray
John Sammartino
Leonard Taylor


Flight 175: of the 65 people who are listed as dying
on this flight, only 18 are listed in the SSDI (28%)

Of these 65 people, only three are on the 9-11
Compensation Fund list:

Michael C. Tarrou
Gloria Debarrera
Timothy Ward


Flight 93: of the 45 people who are listed as dying on
this flight, only 6 are listed in the SSDI (13%)

Of these 45 people, none are on the 9-11 Compensation
Fund list:

No one- Where is Todd Beamer?

Still Disinfo

The SSDI does not include death records for everyone who has been issued a Social Security Number (card). Common reasons for exclusion include the following:

* The death was not reported to the Social Security Administration (SSA).
* The death occurred before the Death Master File was maintained in a computer database. About 98 percent of the deaths in this database occurred between 1962 and the present.
* The person did not participate in the Social Security program.
* Survivor death benefits were (are) being paid to dependents or spouse.
* A recent death may not be indexed yet.
* Human error. (Before you give up, read the section titled "Missing Entries in the SSDI.")


it's not disinfo, it's simply not completely conclusive evidence

disinfo is purposefully wrong info

Without stating why they

Without stating why they would not be listed, it is.

and posting it over and over again, just adds to the case it is being used as such...

disinformation is misleading information. it is often true information that is wrapped in a lie either by distortion or omission.

This is obviously by omission.

All you CGI and No Planes people are either dumb/naive or spooks

First after the first plane hit dozens and dozens if not hundreds of cameras where centered on WTC 2 and caught the second plane hitting from many, many different angles.

Second how come the impact holes in WTC 1&2 look like planes? Maby because planes crashed into WTC 1&2, please just STFU!!!!!!!!!!! You naive twits, stop hurting and setting up straw men for are enemies to use, you morons!!!!

reply to the idiot

How do you know "ozens and dozens if not hundreds of cameras" were on WTC2? Where are those cameras? I'd like to see them. I'd like to see the film. I'd like to interview the camerapeople.

"Second how come the impact holes in WTC 1&2 look like planes?"

When do you graduate kindergarten?

"How do you know "ozens and

"How do you know "ozens and dozens if not hundreds of cameras" were on WTC2? Where are those cameras? I'd like to see them. I'd like to see the film. I'd like to interview the camerapeople."

This is obvious shill tactics. Wasting time on something you know to be true. We all know there were dozens if not hundreds of cameras pointing at the towers after the first tower was hit, and captured the second hit. Saying "I'd like to interview the camera people" is an obvious waste of time and shill tactic.


this is called the scientific method.

You cannot simply "assume" something is true.

I'm not saying people didn't take pictures. I am saying that we need to SEE THE DATA. We cannot make assumptions. We have to SEE the pictures. We have to SEE what the camera took a picture of.

Do the research then!

Tell ya what, you go and interview those people, and then write a paper summarizing your findings, until then you are a huge distraction.

a real shill tactic is....

trying to get people to ignore information.

What harm could be done in actually LOOKING at the pictures, and interviewing the picture takers? How could doing this harm truth searching?

Ignoring data and making assumtions..... THAT'S what will do harm.

CB, give it up man, you know

give it up man, you know it is a shill tactic.

Because its not our job to come up with a 10,000,000 million page report.

Our job is to get the truth out, not investigate every single one of the hundreds of cameras that caught the second plane going into the towers.

This is what shill tactics are for, to get people to get caught up in reaffirming things they already know, instead of getting the truth out to others.


NPT (or some kind of variant) is extremely important: The government doesn't want us to know about their secret technology! This is why we all must learn about it for ourselves and educate others!!

People need to know before the next 9/11 that they can't necessarily believe video they see on TV.

Steven Jones/James Fetzer are promoting the real plane theory. Jones has already been exposed as a fraud (to those who got themselves to look at the data. This might be difficult but is necessary).

NPT is the "head of the snake". That (and controlled demolitions) will get justice.

I've been looking here. Lots of stuff there.. too much for me to gather.

Hopefully ST911 will get into this.

CB, as I put up in my blog

as I put up in my blog here:


We'll all bow down and praise you no-planers once we win

How about this to settle this dispute, and its most recent formulation with the Morgan Reynolds/Judy Wood hit piece today.

All of us who don't believe in "No Plane Theory" (NPT) will promise to give you guys all the respect and deference once 9/11 truth gets out. I'll even give you money for being right if you are, I mean that.

For now, the no planers at the WTC need to shut up and stop attacking their own, like Steven Jones, etc. This debate won't be settled until we win and 9/11 truth is out and then we can actually look at the evidence, have a complete investigation, etc. Until that time, 'No-planers' have to realize that they are hurting the movement. They are hindering the truth from being delivered to millions of more people in America and around the world. They are preventing the truth from breaking through the wall of mainstream media and left gate-keepers we are working so hard to crack. They are hurting the chances that others who know and have credibility will come out.

We all know that the government's explanation of how World Trade Center 1, 2, and 7 came down doesn't stand up to evidence.

Focusing on bringing in new people to that truth is what we need to do.

You are trying to do too many things at once, much like people that want to say illuminati everytime they talk about 9/11 truth.

Sure the government may have used secret, mysterious technology, but we'll never know until the truth comes out, and saying that now does not help get the truth out, period. It makes the 9/11 truth movement look like a bunch of kooks. And you guys know that.

the people who really need to shut up...

are those too afraid to look at the data. If you won't examine the data, then shut up!

Who's attacking their own? You're the one starting the namecalling, not me!

If you're not going to look at the data, then SHUT UP! Leave it to those who do and will

nope, the important thing is

nope, the important thing is for the movement to succeed, not try to go to the public with grainy footage you say is evidence of 'secret government techonology'.

That leads the 9/11 truth movement towards Area 51 and secret underground alien harvesting status, and that is exactly what the perps want.

And you and everyone else here knows that.

the movement will succeed with the truth

I agree, it will be VERY difficult for boxcutter believers to understand NPT.

But if it's based on science, then that's an excellent start.

No scientist has yet to explain how an airplane could do that to a steel building, taking all the laws of physics into consideration.

I'm getting into this because it interests me.

Also I feel the urgent need to show that Jones is a big lying fraud given all the work I've done directly supporting him, such as emailing hundreds of professors pleading for them to support Jones, not to mention protecting Jones wikipedia page. I'm through with all that crap.

You and the others should continue with what you do best. The 9/11 Truth Movement never claims to have just one set opinion on what happened. But we're all here for the same general reason: justice for 9/11 and a decent future for this country and the world.

8PM, gotta go for now....

you think that the hundreds

you think that the hundreds of professors you contacted are now going to respond to No Plane Theory or No Airline Hit The Tower Theory? You think they will respond to secret government technology theory?

I'm sorry if you feel you got burned by supporting Jones, but believe me, people know the government's explanation doesn't stand up to science, and its not Jones' work that is holding them back from speaking up.

Its because there's no use throwing your career away when you think 9/11 truth is going to lose.

I know, I have an engineering degree (biomedical) and have talked to many of my friends that graduated with me and they all know the truth as well. They are working in engineering jobs now, and they aren't gonna ruin their careers by sticking their neck out.

And that is why it is important to get the truth out about the government's conspiracy theory not standing up to science, as quickly as possible, not try to prove fringe, secret technologies.

What really happened on 9/11 will only come out once we win and the MSM is forced to turn against the government's story.

Wasting your breath

Micahyah, this idiot refuses to accept or comprehend basic physics.
He is like trying to convince a fundamentalist YE Christian that NO the Earth is not 6000 years old.
The fundy has ZERO proof and refuses to accept known scientific fact.

CB is exactly the same way, a fundamentlist NoPlaner without a clue.

Why do you repeatedly post this, but you never interpret it?

Why do you repeatedly post this stuff, but you never try to interpret what has been proven, disproven, suggested, etc., by these findings?

No Plane

To preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic.


Goldman Sachs

Here is a Whois search of Todd Beamer's website. It
was set up only 9 days later on 9/20/01! And when you
search the address that appears, 701 Mount Lucas Rd,
Princeton, New Jersey it also belongs to The Goldman
Sachs Group, Inc.

Domain ID:D77549499-LROR
Created On:20-Sep-2001 13:01:54 UTC
Last Updated On:10-Dec-2004 21:52:41 UTC
Expiration Date:20-Sep-2005 13:01:54 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:Network Solutions LLC (R63-LROR)
Registrant ID:GODA-04172622
Registrant Name:Lara Holt
Registrant Organization:Beamer Foundation
Registrant Street1:701 Mount Lucas Rd
Registrant City:Princeton
Registrant State/Province:New Jersey
Registrant Postal Code:08540
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Phone:+1.6094979777
Registrant Email:lholt@heroicchoices.org
Admin ID:GODA-24172622
Admin Name:Lara Holt
Admin Organization:Beamer Foundation
Admin Street1:701 Mount Lucas Rd
Admin City:Princeton
Admin State/Province:New Jersey
Admin Postal Code:08540
Admin Country:US
Admin Phone:+1.6094979777
Admin Email:lholt@beamerfoundation.org
Tech ID:GODA-14172622
Tech Name:Lara Holt
Tech Organization:Beamer Foundation
Tech Street1:701 Mount Lucas Rd
Tech City:Princeton
Tech State/Province:New Jersey
Tech Postal Code:08540
Tech Country:US
Tech Phone:+1.6094979777
Tech Email:lholt@beamerfoundation.org

Larry Silverstein, lease-holder of the World Trade
Center, and Lewis Eisenberg, the man who negotiated
the lease, are key supporters of Israel who have both
held high positions in the largest Israeli fundraising
institution in the United States.

Silverstein and his Australian-Israeli partner, Frank
Lowy, are the real estate developers who obtained
99-year leases on the rental and retail spaces of the
World Trade Center 6 weeks before the catastrophe of
Sept. 11.


They have since bought the Sears Tower.


Although their leased property is destroyed, the
lease-holders themselves stand to gain over 7 billion
dollars from insurance.

Eisenberg, the former chairman of the Port Authority
of New York and New Jersey, personally arranged the
privatization of the World Trade Center property and
oversaw the negotiations that delivered the leases
into the private hands of Silverstein and Lowy.

Eisenberg is a “New York moneyman” and a former
Democrat who supports the liberal wing of the
Republican Party. He has donated hundreds of thousands
of dollars to “pro-choice” Republican candidates. The
newly appointed finance chairman for the Republican
National Committee, Eisenberg has also served as a
vice president of the strong arm of the Israeli lobby,
the American Israel Public Affairs Committee.
On August 5th, 2005 two former officials of the
American Israel Public Affairs Committee were charged
with disclosing US national security secrets to a
foreign power, identified privately by US officials as


When New Jersey Gov. Christine Todd Whitman appointed
Eisenberg chairman of the Port Authority in February
1996, Forbes magazine said the formerly disgraced
Goldman Sachs partner “got real lucky.”

“What a strange political appointment,” the magazine
said, “considering the part he played in the sex
scandal that rocked Goldman and the financial
community in the late 1980s.”

Eisenberg quit Goldman Sachs after his secretary
accused him of sexually harassing her.

No logical debacle here

Facade aluminum would have entered the bulding if a plane hit it, being dragged along with the airplane. The aluminum = cgi planes is a non-starter - the 2 issues are unrelated. Molten aluminum has nothing to do with the existance or non-existance of an airplane.

And I still maintain that the primary purpose of CIA-laced leadership will be to divide and conquer. Just keep that in mind as you weigh the arguments being presented on both sides. Any planted agent who is put into a position of leadership in this movement will attack other leaders, and it works both ways. The best way to control a debate is to own both sides.

Every "leader" of this movement is suspect in my mind until he proves himself to be legit. And it won't be easy for any of us to decipher. I'm simply suggesting we not take firm stands or sides in these food fights... they want division, so don't give it to them.

Not only are our leaders taking pot shots at each other, but some here who are strenuously cheering for one side are doing so to fuel the fires. We are living in Agent Provacateur Central, which only goes to prove that we are getting very close, and fraying some nerves.

You fell into the logic trap

You fell into the logic trap as well.

"Facade aluminum would have entered the bulding if a plane hit it, being dragged along with the airplane. The aluminum = cgi planes is a non-starter - the 2 issues are unrelated. Molten aluminum has nothing to do with the existance or non-existance of an airplane."

Do you see where you did it? Facade aluminum would have entered IF A PLANE HIT IT.

If it was a CGI plane, NO PLANE HIT THE BUILDING. An explosion would blow the steel facade OUT to make the hole.

No-planes theory is ridiculous

IF it was a CGI plane? Please, there's no way the planes were CGI. Impossible. I'm a vfx artist and there is no way the shots from dozens of video cameras that caught the impact (some of which were live network cameras) could have been faked in post to add the planes. Let alone making all those different shots from different angles match. The no-planes theory just does not work. To do a shot like that with just one camera would require camera tracking and compositing (roto or greenscreen to add the plane in), PLUS practical explosives going off at the exact time the CGI plane hit the building to simulate the fireball and make the hole. The compositing required can't be done in real time and look photo-realistic. You would need something like Shake or After Effects, and it would involve color correction, adding film grain to match the camera, rotoshapes or matte creation, keying (real-time keying doesn't look good and is easily detected), the whole nine yards. It's not trivial to pull off. It's totally impossible that no planes hit the WTC towers. They did hit, end of story. And what about the hundreds of eye-witnesses who saw planes? You think they saw a hologram? The technology for projecting holograms just isn't there yet either, so holograms are not the answer. You can't project a hologram into a 3D space and have it look photo-realistic.

Thank god someone said it


Liste to Andrew Grove's podcast. We got ourselves here by not thinking, so we have to think our way out of this.

With the internet, they unleased a beast on themselves that they can't control (they're trying now with tiered internet, internet v2.0, but it's too late). Imagine if we had youtube and google video during the kennedy administration.

This thing is so big and so full of holes that they are going to start making mistakes soon. Seriously, just keep handing out DVD's and tell your friends and neighbors. Poke holes in the official story and it will eventually crumble.

All the kings horses and all the kings men, couldn't put Humpty together again.


Thank you, Herr Pi, for delivering a healthy dose of sanity to this debate.

Anyone here a reputable lawyer?

Seriously, if this case disputing the official story about 9/11 was brought to court what chance would we have? My wife is a divorce lawyer and a Truther, and she admits that if this case was brought to court, we would kick major booty. Unfortunately, she is not as obsessed about 9/11 than I am, else she could make a major contribution considering her status here.

"A patriot must be ready to defend his country against his government" - Edward Abbey

We need a daily odds and ends blog to discuss stuff!!!!

Stuff like Katrina, illegal wiretapping, illegal Iraq/Afghanistan Wars... how f***ing stupid Bush is... etc.

"A patriot must be ready to defend his country against his government" - Edward Abbey

Is 1515 Bonita Avenue the Mossad connection?

Look at the date this website was setup! 9/12/01


Domain ID:D77223487-LROR
Created On:12-Sep-2001 17:06:44 UTC
Last Updated On:20-May-2005 18:34:31 UTC
Expiration Date:12-Sep-2006 17:06:44 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:eNom, Inc. (R39-LROR)
Registrant ID:C536D23D96E01993
Registrant Name:Daniel Chu
Registrant Organization:TeleGraphic Designs
Registrant Street1:1515 Bonita Avenue
Registrant City:Berkeley
Registrant State/Province:CA
Registrant Postal Code:94709
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Phone:+1.5105485416
Registrant Email:daniel@telegraphic.com
Admin ID:C536D23D96E01993
Admin Name:Daniel Chu
Admin Organization:TeleGraphic Designs
Admin Street1:1515 Bonita Avenue
Admin City:Berkeley
Admin State/Province:CA
Admin Postal Code:94709
Admin Country:US
Admin Phone:+1.5105485416
Admin Email:daniel@telegraphic.com
Tech ID:C536D23D96E01993
Tech Name:Daniel Chu
Tech Organization:TeleGraphic Designs
Tech Street1:1515 Bonita Avenue
Tech City:Berkeley
Tech State/Province:CA
Tech Postal Code:94709
Tech Country:US
Tech Phone:+1.5105485416
Tech Email:daniel@telegraphic.com

Is 1515 Bonita Avenue the Mossad connection?


disinfo yet again...

Daniel Chu is a cyber squatter/web host, registering domain names speculatively then selling then if the demand for the domain name rises.

A 757/767 or any other commercial plane did not hit the Pentagon

I am so tired reading about "what hit the Pentagon". One thing I do know is that it was not any jetliner that anyone knows of unless it was made of uranium and was somehow able to penetrate three wings of the impregnable Pentagon walls.

Does anyone remember the DOCUMENTED pic of the 18 foot concentric hole in the C-ring of the Pentagon? There is NO FUCKING WAY that an aluminum-based jet airliner was able to do this!!!

WE are arguing against idiots who have not idea what the fuck they are talking about AND/OR we are arguing with PAID government shills. If the CIA can control the MSM. They certainly can put a few dozen people out there on the "internets" (Bushism) to try to diffuse the "conspiracy" talk. They are very nervous right now.

Methinks Nico and his no-planer friends are government paid. But I will wait to hear a lucid, straightforward case for no planes hitting the WTC. Six days left.

"A patriot must be ready to defend his country against his government" - Edward Abbey

Two Hardware Store Owners

Keep this parable in mind as you inspect this newest altercation between Truther icons:


About 20 years ago I read what was said to be a true story written in the late 1960s or 70s. It took place in a borough of New York City. The author started the story from the time he was a boy, and talked about two hardware stores in his old neighbourhood.

The two stores were right next to each other, and both were run by single men. The two men had nothing in common except for hardware and their hatred for each other. If the first store had a special on hammers, the other would cut his hammer prices lower in an attempt to steal business.

If the second store cut his paint prices in half, the first store would cut them by two-thirds. The two owners would argue constantly, calling each other names, questioning each other s mental capacities and mocking the other s looks. They were vicious and unrelenting and their behaviour went on this way for 30-40 years.

The people in the neighbourhood tended to side with either one or the other, but not both. They'd shop at one hardware store exclusively because they didn t like the other owner. The customers themselves were defined by which store they shopped at.

The author mentioned that both men stayed bachelors their entire lives, and that each lived in apartments at the back of their stores. He said that at the time he never understood why they would live and work next door to someone that they hated so much.

Years later, one of the two owners passed away, and his store s contents were sold off. Within a couple of months, the second store owner retired, sold off his stock then moved away. When the two empty stores came up for sale, everyone in the neighbourhood learned the motive for the long-standing feud between the owners.

They found that between the apartments in the rear was a common door which linked the two dwelling units together. It had turned out that the hardware owners were not bitter enemies, but were actually brothers. The brothers had been playing the local customers off each other through their feud. It didn't matter which store sold more hammers or more paint, the two brothers still made their profit.

They did far better in business pretending to be two feuding competitors than if they ran it as one store, because they instilled fierce loyalties from their customers. The customers were not shopping simply on price, but on allegiance to which one they loved and which they hated. It didn't matter to the brothers which was loved and which was hated, only that the attention and business of others were focused upon them.

(originally brought to my attention by Fintan Dunne)
For those who don't make the connection, consider - just for a moment - that 2 feuding 9/11 Truth leaders are BOTH Cointelpro members, taking the entire movement down a blind alley with shoddy research and eventually disprovable theories. As long as we focus on "who is right", the concept that "both may be wrong" may not occur.

I'm passing no judgement here on Jones or Reynolds. Just waving a red flag about diving into this without proper forethought.

theyre both like two

theyre both like two diseased prostitutes with cottage cheese leaking out of their twats


Wow! You read my mind.

I just posted the same thing.

Your parable fits the Republicans & Democrates, not Dr. Jones

Your allegory fits the Republicans & Democrates, not Dr. Jones!!!! We do have a one-party system now, it's called the NeoCon party.


Where did you read they're both COINTELPRO members?


Submitted by Aaron Williams (not verified) on Mon, 08/28/2006 - 7:08pm.
Where did you read they're both COINTELPRO members?

Interesting comment. Firstly, why must you READ every opinion you have somewhere? That take, if you really mean it, is a text-book example of being part of the problem.

Secondly, I simply said "consider it, for a moment". I wasn't spouting a revelation about anyone, in fact, I explicitly stressed that I was not passing judgement on either man. I don't know who is with us and who is working top divide from within. All I know for certain is, they have been among us since 9/12.

Consider all angles and all possible agendas, that's all. One weapon they have is truthers buying into everything their "heroes" present, without question. When truth has been suppressed as long as 9/11 Truth has, we become eager for any tidbit of info coming forth, and enthusiasm for that tidbit can blind you to it's origin and possible malicious purpose. The worst case scenario is finding out down the line that you've been defending an opinion that was planted in your brain before you started to actually think. It's the same M.O. as organized religion.

It is becoming more and more

It is becoming more and more evident to me, that the most likely explanation is that that a global hawk drone with a bunker-busting warhead hit the Pentagon and that the light poles were taken out manually.
This would explain the small hole and the missing wreckage.

Or an A3 SkyWarrior, or even a missile....

The light poles could easily have been taken out with planted explosives via remote control.

Herr Pi

Fuckin A right


I'am getting so sick of every single thread being clogged with the "NO-PLANERS". It's sad to see 911 Blogger comments sections becoming a stomping ground for total dis-information awareness.

Think of what this does to the newbie visiting www.911blogger.com. It's very sad that the first thing they run into is the disinfo crowd greeting them with B.S.


There WERE many people fixed on the WTC after the 1st strike!!!! And many, many, many witnesses. It is so obvious what these people who spout this crap are here to do.

How do they explain the Naudet video of the 1st Plane? The Naudet brothers were in on it?

What about all the people standing around in the streets in the Naudet video saying "It was a plane"...?? They were planted? All of them????

Malloy on RandiRhode time slot this week, call in take advantage

Mike Malloy is sitting in for Randi Rhodes this whole week. I think we should flooded with 9/11 calls in his show. Since he is one of the bigger supporter in this issue in mainstream radio. And Randi Rhode time slot reaches a lot more general listeners. We need to call in and give out good 9/11 truth infos and links. Forget about getting into details of each issue or try to debate, but to point out all the obvious points that makes people think.

excellent idea!

excellent idea!

Malloy on RandiRhode time slot this week, call in take advantage

Randi Rhode show is live on 3pm-7pm ET daily.


and it repeat on this station from


6pm-10pm ET

This is just a question!

I am asking this question to my fellow readers of this blog, and I am certainly not intimating anything, just interested in your opinions. I definitely don't agree with the "no plane" theory, however what do you folks think of the idea that the planes that did hit the towers (possibly military)had missiles (or something) that would have penetrated the towers first, so the plane could enter easily? If this scenario is at all plausible, it could clear a lot up. Thanks for any thoughts on this.

don't think so.

I don't think missile would help with the penetration. It would cut too small a hole relative to the size of the planes...



missile might go through window and do nothing to help plane penetrate!

This is just a question!

I am asking this question to my fellow readers of this blog, and I am certainly not intimating anything, just interested in your opinions. I definitely don't agree with the "no plane" theory, however what do you folks think of the idea that the planes that did hit the towers (possibly military)had missiles (or something) that would have penetrated the towers first, so the plane could enter easily? If this scenario is at all plausible, it could clear a lot up. Thanks for any thoughts on this.

How many times are you going to ask the same question?

How many times are you going to ask the same dumb question? The answer is no, no, and no. They would not risk doing something unnecessary & foolish as this. 500 mph aircraft don't need help puncturing an office tower, you shill.

New AP article on David Ray Griffin!!

AP just posted an article about "Christian Faith and The Truth Behind 9/11" to their servers. Call your local papers and tell them to run it!!

got a link?

got a link?

Link to AP article


I never did agree with Jones's thermate research, and I certainly don't agree with Reynolds Looney Tunes NPT.

If the movement can be divided among those who favor one or the other, then if they are both setup to be discredited in the end, doesn't that mean EVERYONE is discredited? Both noplaners and planers alike?

To be safe we should not take sides and be very critical of any of their research going forward.

Don't get caught in a potential bear trap.

This is just a question!

In regards to some previous comments on this thread, I am interested in your thoughts on this suggestion: I definitely believe some sort of planes hit the towers,(perhaps military) and could those planes have had some type of missile (or something like that)fired right before to allow easy entry for the plane? I saw this idea before on a short video clip (don't remember which). If this scenario is plausible, it would clear a lot up, no? I am in no way intimating anything here, just curious as to your thoughts on this. Thank-you.

No missiles @ WTC

Aircraft flying @ 500 mph don't need to fire missiles to help them penetrate office towers, you phony.

I believe this thread has been heavily infiltrated by frauds

It seems that this thread has been deeply infiltrated by a number of shills/frauds who are even using the screen names of some real truthers. Also, this whole Jones/Reynolds feud may be fabricated as well, to try & discredit both of them simultaneously.

I suppose I shouldn't be

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that disinfo is now infecting the 911 truth movement. Now that a scientist threatens to blow the whole cd thing wide open with hard facts. Bring on the shills.

People have been accusing each other of being "disinfo" from day one. I think most, if not all, of these charges were/are spurious.

We now have a real case of disinformation: "no-planes'.

The people on this website have tried, again and again, to explain simple physics to these folk, to no avail. Over and over and over again they keep repeating the same discredited bunk.

I assume that most of the people arguing no planes are just really, really dumb; however, we can't dismiss the possibility that a few of these sub-mental morons are no such thing; rather, they recognize the potential in exploiting the less intelligent members of the truth movement to push this theory.

If these characters take control of the movement I will consider it a lost cause, and move onto something else.

People have repeatedly asked the moderators of this site to put up a poll on the subject: they have refused.

Nico and his ten-man army of disinfo provocateurs are continually disrupting our activism and trashing legitimate researchers. Is it "censorship" to kick a gov agent or his useful idiot minions out of the room? No. To do otherwise would be to invite our own destruction. Anyone pushing "no planes" should be cut loose, imo.

I'm sure the majority on this website agree.

They've also been told,

They've also been told, multiple times, that even if their fanciful CGI-secret weapons explanations are true, it doesn't help the movement by talking about it anyway.

ALL the government has now is to spin 9/11 truth as kooks. That's it. They have little evidence supporting their conspiracy theory.

And that is what we should be focusing on now, hammering gate-keepers and introducing new people to the fact that the government's conspiracy theory has been debunked.

Debunking NPT (Again...)

The cartoon plane folks don't understand how difficult it would be to fake those amatuer videos - not only would the process of doctoring and releasing them be very difficult to accomplish, actually shooting the video would also be nearly impossible.

When feature films shoot footage with the objective of compositing in CGI material, the camera work always has to be extremely precise. In the case of 9/11, the camera man would have to track a non- existant airplane, following it 'into' the building. The camera would have to come to rest on the building at the exact instant that the explosives inside were detonated. This would be almost impossible to do as convincingly as the existing video demonstrates, and the timing would have to be very precise. Think of the video where the person is filming the burning WTC2, sees the plane approaching and jerks over to follow it, and then films Flight 175 for the last few seconds of the approach. Very difficult to accomplish without multiple takes - which they certainly didn't have the luxury of!!

Those "amateur" videos...

Who said they were "amateur" videos?

Who saw no-plane?

Show me a single witness that says he saw the towers explode without a plane coming from the side of the impact crater.
And show me a single amateur video/photo that shows blue sky where the plane should have been.
- there is NONE. There is no evidence FOR no-plane.

Of course it's always possible that
- they are all part of the plot
- they were brainwashed by TV news
- hologram projections did the trick

But it all boils down to probability! And as far as that is concerned, never before in history was there any hologram or TV fakery used by a government, i guess. But on the other hand we have plenty of primitively plotted false flag operations, like OKC, the 1993 WTC bombing.

Great Point Anonymous

This is what was nagging me today at work;the amatuer videos, especially the one on Loose Change 2.
Nico never did answer My question completely of where this BS would end up as far as an investigation goes.It would lead nowhere if you are going to find a guilty party. There are other sites ,but one in particular,I can't remember the name at the moment,says if you put out the NPT on Indymedia,it will be removed almost immediately. So they believe they are on to something because of that reason.It seems to Me thats the reason since it's the only reason they give. IMO it leads to a dead end,it gets no closer to tangible proof of who did it. It leads to nothing else other than trying to figure out what then was used to make the explosions at the "Impact-no-Impact" point? Which eventually will lead to who planted those explosive devices?
I say skip that BS because We are already trying to figure out who planted those devices that took the towers down.

Like the perps would try all this instead of real planes?

The cartoon plane folks don't understand how difficult it would be to fake those amatuer videos - not only would the process of doctoring and releasing them be very difficult to accomplish, actually shooting the video would also be nearly impossible.

Why the hell would the perps risk trying all this complicated stuff when real planes/drones would work just fine @ the WTC???

Loose Change site down?

Anyone know why the Loose Change site is down?

domain hijacked

looks like their domain got hijacked... or servers are getting attacked, etc...

I see the DNS records were updated today so its hard to tell if its a protective measure or if something is ongoing.

if it was deliberate, expect much more sabotage's in the days leading up to 9/11.

Talking to no-planers is

Talking to no-planers is like talking to cult-members. They will not accept logic. Even when their arguments are made absurd, they will continue to uphold them. Anyone who thinks their theories are ridiculous (meaning 99% of the truth movement) is an agent. Every single piece of evidence is planted.

Above all, they don't understand simple concepts like video compression, velocity and burden of proof.

No planes = reductio ad absurdum.

Let them have their little "no-plane" party -- somewhere else. We adults have truth to spread.

Tragic that they weren't

Tragic that they weren't ignored when they first appeared.
If not one person ever responded to them, they would simply have faded away.
They thrive on the long rebuttals.

And getting to how the "major players" in the truth movement are now writing papers refuting each others' works. I'm disgusted. They all agree that it was an inside job by major portions of this administration. WHY THE HELL can't that be enough to find SOME common ground?!!!!

Truly a disaster what's happening before the fifth anniversary. Makes me disgusted that men I once quoted to convince other people of our legitimacy are now wasting precious time insulting each other. I can't accept that any of them are disinfo agents. I truly believe they just aren't used to the pressure that this sort of exposure brings. If they really ARE agents for the other side, then I believe they are succeding.

I have a feeling this whole

I have a feeling this whole NPT issue is to pound into peoples heads the idea that No-Planes is a lie, so when we find out what the hell really happened at the Pentagon, everyone will be going, Oh thats just BS!

9/11 Truth Ad

Click Here

That's going to be running for two weeks in a San Fran paper.

"An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

Awesome ad

Thanks, Jon.

That's GREAT.

"I have a feeling this whole

"I have a feeling this whole NPT issue is to pound into peoples heads the idea that No-Planes is a lie"

You're conflating two completely separate issues. I think it quite possible that a drone/missile hit the Pentagon (probably both), but the theory that klingons with cloaking devices hit the WTC is obviously hogwash.

Cool ad. I like the blurb:

Cool ad.

I like the blurb: "how governments use thugs, drug dealers and religious fanatics to control us". Good stuff.

Great Ad

Good Ad Jon! Lets see if the MSM does anything to try to ridicule it.

No Way

The NPT will not push Me away from what the hell hit the Pentagon. We are told it's flight 77,but I am not convinced.
So give Me more credit than that. I'm a skeptic here,so the evidence has to be really tangible, I'll look at it,but My hook ,line, and sinker is busted.

Did You See This?

Filmmaker: "Sergeant Buswell Is A True Patriot"

Excellent article, and yes... it promotes 911PFT as well. ;)

"An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

Hey 911Blogger Guys...

Could we create a new thread? This one is getting kind of ridiculous... I actually had to scroll my mouse 4x as much to get to post this. 4X!?! You're killing my poor index finger.

"An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi


Anybody have the recording of Les Jamieson on the Alex Jones show today?

"An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

1. It's hillarious when the

1. It's hillarious when the no planers call
other people "disinfo". No wonder the mainstream thinks were all nuts.

Seriously, "no planes", "missiles cloaked as planes"...if that was the only thing I knew about 9/11, I'd call ya all nuts:)

2. If we all agree that the one reinforced wedge coincidentally finished the day earlier to withstand a terrorist attack was the area hit at the Pentagon, whats so hard to believe the plane was smashed into a gillion atomized pieces? D'uh folks, come on.

disinfo = ad hominem attack

There's no need for any concerned 9/11 truth seeker to call anotherone "disinfo". It's what Barry Zwicker talked about and it's just an attack on the messenger, a very fundamental attack, that says you're not only misunderstanding things but that you would actively spread false information.

To deny no-plane, i don't have to use THEIR tactics of accusing the messenger. All it takes is to take a look at the probability. There just never was a government TV-fakery case exposed that could be used as an example. Witnesses always backed the TV footage up (exception being UFO stuff). But good old "real" false-flag terror, with real bombs and bullets, that's what history has to offer in abundance - see Alex Jones TerrorStorm

What Hit The Light Poles?

I know this is off topic (so many want to talk about NPT and other what nots... sorry.)

I watched the animation of the data and have a few observations for the post.

I have no means to confirm the authenticity of the flight date, but here goes anyway.

Whatever/whoever drove the plane, did a few things I find strange: I agree with the commentary about little to no concern exhibited for intercept or shoot-down. No clear nervousness. So little nervousness, that the aircraft only exceeds "standard rate" turn parameters by a smallish margin. Considering the throttle back for the long "turns around a point", again, some respect was being paid to high-speed stall and clearly "not in a rush".

What's also notable, is the near-perfectly coordinated (seemingly-artificial and subtle) rudder. The coordinated turn with NEVER an over-active rudder, but highly skilled and automatic input to the rudder. Thing is, it appears very subtle. It may have been attenuated. It may have been semi-auto governed input (i do not know any particulars about this type and configuration).

Throttle is reduced to 25% for the long turn, pushed to 50% for stable out and "aim". Then fire-walled for commitment. Pretty thoughtful guy.

A quick and possibly irresponsible comment here; The aircraft could have had a decent-too, heading, and turn rate entered (these are semi-autopilot features that should be common enough on a this type) .... and someone was just playing with the controls a little, but the presets will correct and return to stability in seconds again after letting go. (A thought I'd prefer to hear feedback from another pilot, rather than hearing these kind of thoughts mangled by non-pilots.)

Get to the end, and I am sure am disappointed. Yes, the altimeter shows 180 ft. "indicated" alt. but seems meaningless without knowing a few more juicy bits of info. THE ANIMATION, I agree with the commentary, suggests a perspective of 400 to 500 ft, and STOPS a thousand feet or more distant from the building.

I never get to see how the horizontal damage trajectory was formed by an extraordinary pilot defeating powerful ground effect (very difficult to compress) for the speed and distance from the severing of light poles, to the building itself.

The data, and or animation seem bogus. I do not find it a credible match with the popular government story.


"The truth shall make you free." Why not make the truth free? We live on a priceless blue pearl, awash in a universe of fire and ice. Cut the crap.

What about the speed. If

What about the speed. If this reconstruction is showing things in real-time, then it was too late for any correction by the time it approached the freeway. Like trying to shoot a fly with a revolver.

I was only asking for opinions on a question!

Earlier I asked a question (however dumb it may have been)and I am sorry for the repeated posts,(I guess I was too impatient).I was reading the comments just now, and even headed my comments with "This is just a question", so people would know I am just curious and to hopefully not get attacked, as it was only a QUESTION, and sure enough I get called a shill and a phony, if this is the way you people (an anyonymous was the attacker) want to embrace people new to this forum, that perhaps need some convincing or help understanding more (not speaking of myself, I have no doubts)than insulting them will certainly not convince them, or make them want to stick around, some of you really need to put your egos aside, for the sake of the movement, and to reach more people. To anonymous, you really need to learn some manners, and respect, not everyone that asks a "stupid question" is a shill!!!


Maybe it's not My place,but I for one welcome you to this site;It is a damn good one and there has been at least 2 disinfo people in here trying to promote that NO planes hit the Twin Towers. That it was just a matter of video fakery,but one thing you have to realize about the 9/11 movement, and this is extremely important,is the movement has bogus sites out there to mislead you,or make you believe We are all crazy conspiracy theorists. The government does not want you to know the real truth and will do anything to keep you from it. If you don't believe Me,then ask the IRS to show you the law that says you are required to pay taxes. There is no law which says this,and the IRS will tell you;WE don't have to show you anything. Anonymous is a good guy, At least I believe that He is,just keep commenting on this site,you get sound information here and you'll learn how to sift through disinformation.Everybody has to learn sometime.

are you more upset about mass murder or in being chided?

You seem far more upset in being chided for repeatedly asking the same dumb question over & over again, than in the fact that the U.S. gov't perpetrated 9/11, mass murder, & illegal wars. Sure you're are not just a shill?

I uploaded this video to youtube... the comments are mine...

visit this link to learn about altimeter settings and this data/animation..


More on altimeter settings and this Flight Data Recorder

Full Analysis on the last second data. Pressure altitude vs. True Altitude...


Be sure to visit Pilots For Truth website for more factual information.

Feel free to sing up for the Pilots For Truth forums found in upper roght margin of home page.


Very informative post. Always good to here from people who actually fly these planes.

apologies for typos..

typing in the dark.. ;)

To Erin

Dont know if you're a pilot.. but..

The altimeter shown in the video wasnt set on descent... its showing 29.92 according to FDR data. The local altimeter setting at DCA is 30.22. The actual aircraft altitude is 300 feet higher than what is indicated in the animation.

METAR KDCA 111251Z 35005KT 10SM CLR 21/14 A3021
SPECI KDCA 111341Z 33010KT 10SM CLR 23/14 A3022
METAR KDCA 111351Z 34009KT 10SM CLR 23/14 A3023

The data and animation is authentic as provided by the NTSB and is said to be from AA77. The data has been cross checked with 4 sources. The NTSB refuses to comment on the conflict of the FDR vs. Official Story.


Standard Pressure likely untouched for decent. got it.

I see you're adjusting the FDR alt. indicated by historical weather. cool.

This is far from scientific, but simply by perspective in the animation (for what it's worth), the data and image still do not help me to see how the aircraft could overcome ground effect between poles and building, at that speed.

I've been furious over the fact that the NTSB has been gaged by FBI or whoever the fuck. This shit belongs to ALL pilots and public alike.

I don't know if that's your site, but I sent it my email.... get in touch if you like.

Check here for to see how Altimeter was set on climb..

Lets skip the 757 ; it did not hit the Pentagon

The hijackers are a few thousand feet up in the air, they spot the distinctive shape of the Pentagon and decide, "that's our target". What do they do next?
Well, logic would suggest that they take the easy and most effective option and nose-dive the plane towards the center of the Pentagon, thereby maximizing the chances of actually hitting the building at such high speed and also causing the most damage.
But no, the intrepid "Arab terrorists" have a much more complicated plan:

They are going to fly the airliner at maximum speed just a few feet off the ground into the facade of the Pentagon; but not just any part of the facade. No indeed, these guys have a plan. Their specifically chosen "bull's eye" is the section of the facade of the Pentagon that had recently been reinforced and, due to the ongoing internal work, had a significantly reduced number of people in it. These nutty hijackers, consumed with rage and anger at America, its government, its military and its citizens, and determined to inflict as much carnage as possible, had somehow chosen the strongest part of the Pentagon which at the same time had the lowest concentration of people!

Now how's that for bad luck!

To carry out their bizarre plan, which appears designed to minimise death and destruction at the Pentagon rather than maximise it, and given that they realise that they are very poor pilots, failing to possess the skills to master the controls of a single-engined cessna, our intrepid "terrorists" decide that they will execute a difficult fast descent from 7,000 feet combined with a 270 degree turn.

This done, they are now at a few hundred feet and in "line of sight" of the Pentagon up ahead of them. The only problem is that they are now confronted with a veritable obstacle course of cars, roads, bridges, buildings, trees etc between them and their target. Not to worry - they have Allah on their side after all. By some miracle they manage to navigate the massive hulk of the 757 through down town Washington while flying at 500 mph and just a few dozen feet off the ground, getting lower all the time. They make just a little booboo and clip a couple of light poles on the way in, but despite this and the fact that their massive manual missile is just feet of the ground, they politely avoid messing up the Pentagon lawn and finally slam into their target at ground floor level.

Now that is one fantastical magical mystery of a story, worthy of inclusion in any children's fairy tale.

Very well stated by Mike Anti-Neo-Con

I'm sure that inpept, ammature Cessna pilots couldn't even fly an airliner back to D.C. from the Kentucky/Ohio border, let alone find & strike the Pentagon!

America: Freedom to Fascism

just watched it. jesus. i

just watched it.


i feel powerless and hopeless.

"This video is currently not

"This video is currently not available. Please try again later"