Dr. Peter Dale Scott Endorses NYCCAN
Jon Gold Tue, 07/21/2009 - 7:20pm
I am writing to endorse the www.nyccan.org initiative. It is shocking that one of the greatest mass murders in the history of the United States has not yet received an adequate investigation. The limitations and shortcomings of the 9/11 Commission have now been widely recognized, and even its two chairmen have acknowledged that the commission was "set up to fail." Meanwhile this country continues to live under major legal and even constitutional changes flowing from an event which we still do not not adequately understand. It is not too much to say that the future of America as an open society will depend in large part on whether it can find the political will to determine what happened on that fateful day.
Peter Dale Scott
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Thank you...
Dr. Scott.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?
Another thanks
to Dr. Peter Dale Scott. I love seeing more and more reliable people endorsing this, and hope this pattern continues.
Be on...
The lookout. More to come. ;)
Edit: Those of you who know people, now would be a good time for you to ask for an endorsement of NYCCAN...
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?
Had The Honor To Meet Dr Scott
Some years ago I had the honor to meet Peter Dale Scott at an Assassinations conference in Washington DC.
He has done some of the best investigative work on the JFK assassination and he has contributed much in helping understand motivations behind 9/11.
Excellent!
NYCCAN is providing a very real opportunity for the citizenry to investigate 9/11 and learn the truth about what actually happened. Very inspiring to see an endorsement of the NYCCAN initiative by someone of the caliber of Peter Dale Scott.
A Bit More on Mitchell
http://www.truthmove.org/forum/topic/871/page/4?replies=85#post-8631
Have you spoken to Ted?
According to him, the Commissioners are not set in stone. IF this passes, and I understand that's a BIG if, then do you honestly believe someone like me who has a bad habit of speaking his mind, would not do so with regards to the Commission? Would you keep your mouth shut if you saw shenanigans? I can only speak for myself, but if this passes, I will do everything in my power to make sure it is the best possible investigation. Just as I have always done "everything in my power" with regards to this cause.
Edit: Jules, have you spoken to him? I understand that you have problems with the initiative. Having Les Jamieson affiliated with it was a problem. That has since been resolved. Les is no longer affiliated with the effort. You have a problem with the Commissioners, and as I pointed out above, that has also been addressed. Last year when we were promoting the effort, you were one of the biggest proponents against it for some of the reasons I specified. I would hope that since some of your concerns were addressed that maybe this year you would try to be a little bit more supportive.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?
How has the issue with
How has the issue with Commissioners been addressed? I received a response from a prominent figure involved with NYCCAN who called Mitchell an "American hero" and that it would not be a problem with him on the Commission because most Americans believe in UFOs. There is definitely not unanimity that Mitchell has to go. Remember Mitchell briefed CIA Director George HW Bush in 1976 after his experiments with Uri Geller according to his own book. Mitchell was introduced to Uri Geller by Andrija Puharich who founded the Round Table Foundation. The Round Table Foundation contained members such as: Walter Dornberger, Wernher Von Braun and Arthur Young (inventor of the Bell Helicopter and step-father of Michael Paine of JFK infamy).
These issues need to be raised. Not buried and dealt with behind closed doors. They must be dealt with in the most transparent way possible and they are not. Would anyone else have raised a peep about Les Jamieson other than Jules and Truthmove? To maintain this attitude that we should just focus on the positive is both very naive and does not acknowledge the history of past investigations of this kind (see HSCA and Jim Garrison) or the history of the 9/11 Truth Movement. NYCCAN has the potential to be very big. Do you not think that the powers that be will not make every attempt to sabotage something this big from both outside and inside if they have already done it to much smaller efforts?
Who...
Is the prominent figure? Ted Walter told me it is not set in stone, and is well aware of people's problems with Edgar Mitchell.
This was addressed by the way very publicly during a Grassroots phone call that took place a few months ago. Were you or Jules on that call to voice your concerns with Ted?
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?
I will not say who as it was
I will not say who as it was a private email.
The Grassroots phone call was public to those who knew about it. There was no information about it on the NYC CAN or Ballot Initiative websites or this site or through the mailing list, all of which I check regularly. How public is it if no one knows about it? I would have been on it if I had known.
It was...
A highly publicized Grassroots call that 911Truth.org (the most prominent 9/11 Truth site) both advertised, and sent out minutes to going over everything that you're bringing up now. The NYCCAN.org site didn't exist at the time of the phone call.
Can I ask a question? What is the difference between someone like JREF pointing to the "weaknesses" of the initiative, and someone like Jules pointing to the "weaknesses" of the initiative? Why does Jules feel the need to leave a link with no comment other than "A bit more on Mitchell?" You may as well have a JREFer come on here, and post something like that.
I'm not going to get into another argument about the initiative. Just like last year. I'm going to support it to the best of my ability. You can either choose to do so, or not.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?
That's low. And no I will not support the initiative.
Jon, I find your optimism, proven in the past to be potentially faulty, no consolation in regard to the nature of this effort. I do respect your commitment to this movement but that's not the same as trusting your judgment.
I think it was totally appropriate for me to post information about Mitchell to this thread. And I will continue to promote my concerns whenever something is posted about the initiative. Why? Because my concerns are based on the wording of the initiative itself.
Christs4sale is not making up the statements to which he can not at this point attribute to an author. But I know it was someone prominent and it gives me even less confidence in your statements suggesting that you can regulate the outcome.
I've expressed my concerns many times in detail. Suggesting that I'm just sniping does not respect that fact. I do take some credit for Jamieson's removal and that was the least definitive concern of mine.
http://www.truthmove.org/forum/topic/871?replies=85
I have to give credit to Luke and Justin right now, coordinating the "Real Change" conference. They found out that Deagle was nuts and they took him off the program. Mitchell is certainly as much a liability as Deagle, but a wide array of movement figures haven't made any public indication that they will be taking action.
I'm really upset to see this thing become a bandwagon. Everyone seems to think this is our meal ticket and so everyone is lining up to get on board. But none of the major pitfalls contained in the initiative itself are being addressed. It's like everyone has their heads in the clouds.
And now we see the influence of Les rear it's ugly head again with the "We Demand Transparency" conference. Barrett, Ranke, and Alten in an event that will certainly be very much about promoting the initiative. Les still has influence. The fact that Sheehan, O'Connor, and Sunjata will be on stage with these people is a travesty.
Well, it's full steam ahead. It will likely be on the ballot. And if it gets enough votes, I will just have to wait and see what happens as a result. But I'd ask you to mark my words here. If you think you are going to police this effort and prevent it from running into major problems, you are going to end up very disappointed.
I foresee a total trainwreck.
What you did...
Was no different than a "debunker" coming on this site, and pointing to the "weakest link" of the initiative. What I find disturbing is that you say "none of the major pitfalls contained in the initiative itself are being addressed" and that is simply untrue. You will continue to post your "concerns whenever something is posted about the initiative?" Even when they've been addressed like Mitchell? Again, the Commissioners are not set in stone. I have not seen you make an attempt at getting a new investigation onto the ballot. You've had over a year since this one was started. All I see you do is bash the initiative every chance you get. You see a trainwreck? I see the only chance we have in a country where our Government does not work for the people.
Sander's event with Barrett, et al. might not even be happening.
Here, make sure you don't miss this one.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?
Addressing Mitchell
The issue of Mitchell, from what I have seen on, has been raised, but not addressed. The following is from the minutes of the Grassroots conference call (which was not on any of the major sites related to NYC CAN btw and therefore not as public as it should be):
Kyle mentioned his speaking with Michael Wolsey and other truthers, who have been hesitant in supporting this campaign due to a controversial Commissioner member on this campaign, former astronaut Edgar Mitchell. This is due to his statements regarding another issue, UFO disclosure. After some debate, the group joined in a consensus for Sander to contact William Pepper and mention this 'public relations' concern.
A "public relations concern"? What is that supposed to mean? Given Sander's and William Pepper's track-record on affiliating with purveyors of the most transparent types of disinformation, this does not give me confidence. If that means addressed added to my recent email from a prominent NYC CAN figure said that Mitchell is a hero and that it should not be a problem because most of the public believes in UFOs, from what I can see it has not been addressed.
Here are the minutes...
For 911Truth.org's Grassroots call regarding NYCCAN from 4/9/2009... Thanks to Janice Matthews...
Ted Walter: NYC CAN
Update of initiative efforts:
30,000 petition signatures were collected by 9/11/08 - those signatures ARE still valid for '09. Has been confirmed verbally by city clerk. Clerk won't confirm in writing, so next step is writing clerk a letter explaining that we're moving forward under that assumption. Legal counsel spoken to by Bill Pepper agreed sigs will be valid for this year.
Primary reason behind reorganization of the initiative effort is that a number of people felt once this was on ballot, for ref to be approved, to succeed politically, we'd need stronger support from city residents, which would come from perception that 9/11 families and first responders are behind this. Original initiative lacked that. And, needed logo/image to better galvanize this support. Goal is that every NYC voter will be familiar with logo, referendum by Fall.
Current Personnel –
(Les Jamieson is no longer affiliated.)
Executive Director – Ted – interim. Want family member head of it ideally, and sooner rather than later. Extremely involved last year. May and June petitioning, July got funding and he started full time petitioning. Needed management of paid petitioners, so he started doing that. 20-40 petitioners at any one time, 75-80 over 2 months. 20,000 signatures collected in that period of time. So, to collect signatures we need funding. Need $100K to complete petitioning effort by end of June. Now building nationwide/global support
Treasurer – Rev. Frank Morales
Executive Committee:
Bob McIlvaine
Bill Doyle
Jean Canavan
Donna Marsh-O’Connor
Janette MacKinlay
William Rodriguez
Now starting final phase of petitioning. 30K was minimum. Goal was always at least 45K. But, law states (linked at NYC CAN) says if 15K more than necessary are collected, can override City Council vote, thus bypasses city council. Don’t anticipate it would win vote in city council, so wants more than 45K, cushion is 70K. Likely they’ll invalidate 1/3 of signatures, so this means it would still pass.
After that, ad campaign, which family members and responders would be very involved with.
Q: Funding: Have you reached out to Rosie/Charlie Sheen, etc.
Yes, last year. Just now at point it would be beneficial and appropriate to do so again. Not certain whether Rosie was approached, but some people said they would. No results.
Q: Any effort to work with other NY groups?
Wants to work with everyone who will work with it. But, the coalition cannot appear part of 9/11 truth movement. Major marketing tenet throughout NYC. But it is for the 9/11 movement. Working for investigation, and same aim, and many have personal connections to movement, come from movement… but on public side, no direct relationship with movement. Will not publicly reach out to NY groups like WAC, but obviously they’ll be talking to them and hoping they’ll agree with initiative.
Q: Who would conduct investigation?
Complicated legal process to establish commission itself. Lawyers will be involved. As written in petition now, 8 commissioners now involved, would elect remaining members.
William Pepper
Lorie Van Auken
Mike Gravel
Lincoln Chafee
Ed Asner
Ralph Schoenman
Edgar Mitchell
Rev. Gumbleton
Q: Date?
November 3 Mayoral Election
Q: Break down $100K, and how can we get funds to you?
Industry standard is $1/signature gathered. So paying about $15/hour for 11-12 signatures. Last year spent about $60,000, collected $30,000. Planning to do much better now, need $65K to pay for petitioners for remaining 40K signatures.
$15K for administrative – 3 full time people, misc costs (marketing, printing, flyers). (Doesn’t include expensive print ads… )
Donate on website www.nyccan.org and front page has donate now or mail check (address on donate and contact us pages).
Definitely not only looking for money, but for continued support. $25 = membership (more is great, of course). Goal: One million members. Optimistic, but why not shoot for it! That means $25 million, which is the kind of money needed to fund investigation. Short term, confident to raise money needed to raise
Q: Is current list of petitioners set in stone? (Chafee is Bilderberg attendee.)
At this point, the petition can NOT be changed. 30K have already signed. But it’s set up that commissioners vote on commissioners. So that will become an issue if and when
Believe popular support will be so strong it will overwhelm those objections. But it’s something to work to overcome.
Q: Can someone express our misgivings to Mitchell?
Yes, that may happen. A Commissioner can recuse himself, even now.
Q: What is response on ground? Percentage of people signing?
Not so much convincing people, as getting people who are already concerned about events and first responders to sign. And they are. Some don’t, they want to move on. Some wholeheartedly disagree. Job as petitioners is not to spend time arguing with those who don’t want to sign, but to give voice to those who want to sign. Of people who actually stop, perhaps 1/3 to ½ sign.
NYC CAN Letter now posted at website; if you’d like to forward a pdf copy of letter, email Ted for a copy. (info@nyccan.org)
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?
So did this one not
So did this one not happen?
http://www.meetup.com/StLouis9-11Questions/boards/thread/6977572/
That one is 4/9. The one I quoted from is from 5/27.
So a month and a half later...
Individuals who weren't on the call I was asked the same questions because they weren't privy to the information cited in the first one.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?
About how the commissioners are being addressed
Jon,
Why should we have a commission where commissioners are recusing themselves? Can NYCCAN pick commissioners who do not have the conflicts of interests that require them to recuse themselves? I think that a lot of people are in that category. This should be a non-issue. The 9/11 Commission should have taught everyone this. Extensive backgrounds should be researched, collaborated on, made public and challenged on all of the commissioners and if a commissioner does not want it to happen to him or herself, then he or she should not be an commissioner.
About commissioners voting on commissioners. I think that the commissioners need to know what is going on and the only way to do this is to keep raising the issues of disinformation, infiltration and the backgrounds of certain people. Again, you call Jules no different than a JREFer, but the original purpose of this thread was to raise the issue of Mitchell and his background. I believe that we should do think like a broken record because people tend to have very short memories in this movement. I do not have blind faith that the commissioners will find out about this stuff themselves. Neither Pepper nor Schoenmann have track records that make me believe that they will do that themselves and they are the currents members of the commission that should know better. There needs to be a major effort on the part of the public to constructively criticize NYCCAN and not just to move forward with closed eyes and smiling faces.
I don't know...
Of which "track record" you're referring to with regards to Pepper, but I thought he was a credible individual who won a lawsuit that argued the Government murdered MLK. On top of that, Cynthia McKinney swears by him. I agree that the initiative needs to be watched so as to make sure no nonsense takes place (like it usually does), but the initiative, faulty as it may be, is the only initiative we have. I firmly believe that if it passes, the family members, and people like myself will make sure it is the best possible investigation we can get.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?
See an excerpts of a previous posts of mine
From Peter Dale Scott's Road to 9/11, Introduction end notes:
"Most of what Pepper writes about army surveillance of King is documented and corroborated (cf. Steve Tompkins, "Army Feared King, Secretly Watched Him. Spying On Blacks Started 75 Years Ago," Memphis Commercial Appeal, March 21, 1993 http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/1993/mar/21/army-feared-king-secret... ). Unfortunately, Pepper also transmitted the claim made to him that the 20th Special Forces Group had a sniper team in Memphis on April 4, 1968, to ensure that King was murdered. I believe from my own research that the sniper team story was disinformation from high sources in order to discredit Pepper. In particular, an alleged authorizing cable, citing Operation Garden Plot, is to a trained reader a self-revealing forgery."
From Lisa Pease's Real History Archives:
"Remember what happened to William Pepper? He believed some Ayers-like informants on the MLK case and made a central case against a former military man whom Pepper believed (and wrote) was then dead. So on national TV, what happened? The "dead" guy walked out onto the stage. His living didn't negate all of Pepper's work in reality. But in the popular mind? Pepper was the guy who had 'gotten it wrong' on TV. I fear strongly the same will happen to those who pursue this line of inquiry."
http://realhistoryarchives.blogspot.com/2006/11/did-cia-kill-bobby-kenne...
Here are Lisa's comments regarding a disagreement between Peter Dale Scott and William Pepper at the Making Sense of the 60's conference in 2008: http://www.blackopradio.com/black403b.ram
Her comments on Pepper begin at 23:30.
Here is an excerpt about William Pepper from Joan Mellon's talk from this same conference:
"A digression about sources. From about fifty hours of taped interviews, I could not use any of what a New Orleans figure named Gordon Novel told me. With a soldier of fortune named Gerald Patrick Hemming, the percentage of the truth to fabrication was 50-50. Knowing of my interest in Colombia, Gerry told he he had been imprisoned on Gorgona. (This was an island off the western coast of Colombia, named because of the preponderance of poisonous snakes wandering there. I didn’t believe him. This seemed like bragging. No, it turned out to be true. Smuggling drugs and not paying off the right people in Medellin, Gerry found himself on Gorgona.
Gerry told me that Robert Kennedy had addressed a group of Cuban exiles at Homestead Air Force Base in Florida in the summer of 1963. I needed corroborating witnesses; Gerry promised to name some, but couldn’t, and I broke off all contact with him. I forgot about this matter until a researcher named William Pepper told me the same story. His source, Pepper said, was an aging, very ill documentary filmmaker who had been a close friend of Robert Kennedy’s. He had won eight Emmys! Pepper said. And no, he couldn’t give me this dying man’s name.
As a film historian, I could reach any documentary filmmaker, and I called about ten people. None had ever heard the Homestead story. Then I contacted people close to Bobby Kennedy: Peter Edelman; John Seigenthaler; one of Robert Kennedy’s daughters; Ed. Guthman; Frank Mankiewicz; George Stevens; and Joey Gargan, a Kennedy cousin; the list goes on. None had ever heard of the Homestead story. Seigenthaler suggested I call the Kennedy library and ask to see the appointment book of Bobby’s secretary, Angie Novello. I did. They searched. 1963 was missing!
I went back to Pepper and insisted that he name his source – and it turned out that the source was…Gerald Patrick Hemming! In the course of the same conversation, Pepper told me that Bobby had flown to Dallas on the evening Oswald was arrested, and talked to Oswald in his cell! But I must not use this revelation! So historians must be wary, especially in this field."
http://www.joanmellen.com/oswald.html
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My reason for highlighting Pepper on this and not the others, despite all of their flaws, is that Pepper has probably been most visible of these individuals through his work on the MLK case and because of his visible position in NYCCAN. Now the military aspect of the MLK case is one of the most controversial parts of it. Parts of it are well documented and are almost definitely true and parts of it are far less credible. Scott is saying that the notion of a sniper backup team is likely an elaborate disinformation effort designed to discredited Pepper when needed. The whole story relied on individuals who Pepper could not meet with directly, with the exception of Jack Terrell, and reporter Steven Tompkins was required to function as the intermediary. Tompkins does not even agree with how Pepper used the information that he [Tompkins] retrieved from his military sources. With sources like these, this is not something Pepper should have provided as a solid addition to what we know of the narrative of MLK's assassination as the addition was portrayed in Orders to Kill and An Act of State. This eventually was used to discredit Pepper on ABC’s Turning Point hosted by Forrest Sawyer, which aired June 19, 1997. Here is an account of this by Jim DiEugenio in Probe Magazine:
"Predictably, Sawyer constructed a trap for Pepper in the second half of the program. Towards the end of Pepper’s book he details the tale of an Army special forces group sent to Memphis in April of 1968 to surveil King. Working from interviews conducted by reporter Steve Tompkins, Pepper writes that they received a special briefing and were told to actually terminate King. They would have if he would not have been fired upon already. According to Tompkins’ sources, one of the leaders of this group, Bill Eidson, later died. Sawyer took Pepper through this part of his book, questioning his methodology, and then produced Eidson and a cohort. Although Pepper held up fairly well through this elaborate set-up, he had been sandbagged. Strangely, and although the sequence was probably edited to favor Sawyer, he doesn’t seem to have seen it coming. Tompkins was also on the show and he implies that Pepper went too far with the material he had given him. But also, neither Tompkins nor Pepper appear to have checked out their military intelligence sources with the utmost scrutiny."
http://www.ctka.net/pr797-mlk.html
So for last year’s 40th Anniversary when interviewed on NPR he brings up the sniper backup team as if it definitely happened. Of all the solid things he could have said about the King case in this short amount of time given to him by NPR and he chooses that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65CSpD2zm8Q
To me, someone recognizing the responsibility of being the attorney to James Earl Ray or the King family would have left the more speculative aspects of this case on the drawing board rather than to publish them, which put him in a very vulnerable position. This same uncritical approach to NYCCAN might be leaving other vulnerable doors open if NYCCAN takes off.
Now Truthmove, the organization I have been a part of, has been very critical of Les Jamieson and his actions in NY 9/11 Truth (see our other posts on his distribution of anti-Semitic material, the big tent, etc.). For the 2007 Anniversery of 9/11, we could see ahead of time that the Ready for Mainstream conference was going to be a mix of credible and not credible presenters and we felt that we should warn the credible people beforehand. Another Truthmove forum regular and I were able to obtain the email addresses and send out emails to two of the presenters, one being Pepper. The other person, when he heard that Webster Tarpley was presenting, cancelled. Pepper on the other hand, spoke about disinformation, but at the same conference Tapley had his infamous meltdown about the Kennebunkport Warning and Alfred Webber spoke about exotic weaponry. Did this experience have any effect on Pepper’s affiliation with the organizers of NY 9/11 Truth? No, he ended up forming the 9/11 Ballot Initiative with them.
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The entire chain of posts in full context are available at the link below, but what I have posted there should make sense:
www.truthmove.org/forum/topic/1498
Sitting ducks
for the likes of James Randi and JREF?
http://site.uri-geller.com/edgar_mitchell__gillian_anderson_
Besides obviously family members and other victims of 9/11, candidates for the commission should be comprised of people who have proven themselves repeatedly. Known people from this movement against totalitarianism with both an open mind and an academic level of thinking. People such as Barry Zwicker, William Pepper, Steven E. Jones and Ray McGovern. People who show patience, wisdom and scrutiny in their work.
People such as Jon Gold have also proven their steadfast dedication. I might disagree on some things but trust is paramount.
Why bring in relatively unknown outsiders simply because they have NASA credentials? Just thinking out loud here, let me know what you think.
Bob Bowman, Paul Craig Roberts...
Most of them look pretty solid to me, but if the Commissioners aren't set in stone then Bob Bowman, Paul Craig Roberts, and Ray McGovern come to mind as great additions.
NYCCAN Action Alert
I heard from Amy Goodman that the best way to get DemocracyNow to cover a news story is to contact them at producers@democracynow.org. Below is the email that I sent. Please contact them and let them know that this is something they should DEFINITELY be covering. Thank you.
To the producers of DemocracyNOW,
Currently, there is an effort underway in New York City to get a new investigation into the 9/11 attacks onto this November's ballot. Over 70,000 New Yorkers have signed the petition, and 80 9/11 Family Members have endorsed it (up from 53 three weeks ago), including the famous "Jersey Girls." Noted individuals such as 9/11 Whistleblower and Time's Person of the Year, Coleen Rowley, as well as Peace Activist Cindy Sheehan have endorsed this effort. The mainstream media has completely and totally ignored this "newsworthy" event. The reason I am writing is to ask, no beg, that you cover this extremely important story. It has been 8 years since that horrid day, and there has been no accountability, and no justice. Especially to those victims' family members that have seen the names of their loved ones used to start illegal pre-emptive wars, take away our civil liberties, bankrupt this country, and expand Executive power to the point of no accountability. Please do the right thing, and cover this extremely important story.
www.nyccan.org
Sincerest Regards,
Jon Gold
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?
Regarding The 9/11 Commission's "Recommendations"
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?